John puts out a lot of good videos. He reviews about a hundred guns before the Holts auction. Does a number of clay shooting videos. His opinions are different but mostly based on his shooting world experiences. Decent steel shot reviews for double uses. As to best of anything it always brings into mind that a ugly gun is beautiful if it is your only gun.
The title of the video and this Thread amount to rash generalizations that are meaningless apples to oranges comparisons. The very best hand made custom rifles and shotguns produced by Americans compare favorably with guns made anywhere. And our mass produced machine made guns stack up quite nicely too, when compared to mass produced guns built elsewhere. Comparing a hand made Boss or Purdey to an Ithaca or Stevens is just as ridiculous as comparing a Chevy Cobalt to a Formula 1 car. And it wouldn't be fair to compare a cheap Birmingham working man's gun to a Lefever Optimus or John Nichols shotgun either. But there is no question that the gun making trade in Great Britain reached an overall higher level of refinement, while ours was generally geared toward mass production and mass marketing. You could say our talent for mass production saved the British trade from being conquered by Adolph Hitler & Co. And you could also say that we have now outsourced and off-shored that capability today, and morphed into a nation where too many people would rather stay home and collect Government money hot off the printing press. I'm blown away by the number of businesses I see that are closed or have reduced operations because they don't have enough employees, while millions are collecting unemployment checks. This must certainly be a factor in recent ammunition shortages.
And once upon a time, there was active and frequent international competition to determine which nation had the best shooters in all of the various disciplines. Now international shooting competition has dwindled, and it is hard to find, even when there is an Olympics, because the shooting sports have been demonized. So we are largely left with opinions. We have some guys right here who could outshoot George Digweed, to hear them talk. I'm mainly concerned with how well I can shoot. And gun reviews are largely a matter of personal taste. I read a lot of good things about Turkish shotguns, but haven't been moved to buy any yet.
The British 'need' to judge all things by snooty standards is both a credit to their esthetic, and a blot on it. It's a plus in that it has driven them to set their own high standards in certain endeavors.
But the negative outweighs the positive, in that the nexus of such snootiness extends from their societal class system, topped by royalty, and extending right on down the the striving class of cockney who've made good enough in business to buy the finer things.
For, if all you aspire to is to "be" a higher class, such that even when you succeed, you mark your achivement by garnering the trappings of that lording class...then are you really even free of them?
It almost doesnt matter now, as they've allowed themselves to be so colonized the foreigners who could care less about 'pax Britania'...and have at the same time so gutted themselves and their institutions with self immolating beliefs, that in a couple more generations the English will be spoken of in Britain the way Native Americans are regarded in the United States.
As an almost dead festage of a bygone time...supplanted by ungrateful and unapologetic people who have no need for or connection to anything recognizably "British" other than bad weather, worse food, and gangly teeth.
It's almost hard to believe they once ruled 2/3's of the world from that little gray island.
Digweed is arguably the winningest sporting clays shooter in the world, but the one time I was fortunate enough to be entered in a shoot where he was competing he was beaten by my friend Bill McGuire (who was HOA), at the American "leg" of the Triple Classic. Nevertheless, Digweed's record stands for itself, and I found him to be a great ambassador for shooting sports worldwide. It was certainly fun watching him shoot.
I'm with Keith .............. I'm mainly concerned with how well I can shoot.
Nudde. If I was not a true gentleman I I would say that you are just repeating things about the British that you you found funny in junior school because the teeth, bad weather, and food has been recited more times than I have had hot meals, so much so it is like water flowing of a Ducks back to us Brits, just as a point of interest our little Island is undoubtedly green. Did you take world history at school though I must say I am beginning to doubt it? Yes the British did rule 2/3 of the world and it is something that no other country will ever accomplish again if they wish though watch your back China is looking to try it. Just in case you did not know the Union Jack is still flying in more places on this planet thanks to the British Commonwealth and of course those meany Ensign flags of other countries around the planet. I do wonder whether you have looked closer to home recently, if you have Medical insurance I bet it costs an arm and a leg for a family so much so many people do not have it, In Britain the National Health is all free to all at point of use to everyone irrespective of how much money you have. OK the British Empire is a thing of the past but the British language is taking over the world, so in a way the British legacy democracy trial by jury is still growing if we cant have the world one way we will have it more peacefully in another you do have one attribute though you did speak all that old anti British crap out of your "Ass Hole!" But me being a true gentleman I could not bring myself to say such things about you.
George Digweed was the winner of the 2007, 2008 and 2009 900 Target All Around Championships ATA Trap @ 16 yds - 50 targets, ATA Trap @ 27 yds - 50, ATA Doubles - 50, NSSA Skeet - 75, NSSA Doubles - 75, English Sporting - 100, 5 Stand - 100, FITASC - 100, International Skeet - 100, Bunker Trap - 100, Flyers - 50, Helice - 50.
The last Nad Al Sheba Sporting Clays Championship in Dubai was in 2015 and it was truly a world competition. The winner in 2014 was Gebben Miles of Tucson with a Krieghoff, and in 2015 Derrick Mein of Girard, KS (now Olathe) with a Kolar.
I'm a Yankee of partial English descent, with family there...and I worked in London for years...Edinburgh for a shorter stint. I'm fully qualified to opine on all things British, up to, and including, your German queen.
I am in fact an afficianado of much old English tradition. But just as in Yankeeland, not all is roses. And I grew very tired of much of the baseless haughtiness...gun making included. Yes, London best likely is the best. But the asthetic many conjure to 'wax poetic' about it is...boorish.
Britain, as a nation, can make no "claim" on the brilliance of of a short list of creators (Manton, Purdy, Scott, Greener, Richards, etc.)...just as America can't claim that Browning, Lefever, etc were somehow a "product" of our nationhood.
BTW, you can be certain I'm a gentleman because I refrained from commenting on warm beer and sports with zero strategy. *s*
The title of the video and this Thread amount to rash generalizations that are meaningless apples to oranges comparisons. The very best hand made custom rifles and shotguns produced by Americans compare favorably with guns made anywhere. And our mass produced machine made guns stack up quite nicely too, when compared to mass produced guns built elsewhere. Comparing a hand made Boss or Purdey to an Ithaca or Stevens is just as ridiculous as comparing a Chevy Cobalt to a Formula 1 car. And it wouldn't be fair to compare a cheap Birmingham working man's gun to a Lefever Optimus or John Nichols shotgun either. But there is no question that the gun making trade in Great Britain reached an overall higher level of refinement, while ours was generally geared toward mass production and mass marketing. You could say our talent for mass production saved the British trade from being conquered by Adolph Hitler & Co. And you could also say that we have now outsourced and off-shored that capability today, and morphed into a nation where too many people would rather stay home and collect Government money hot off the printing press. I'm blown away by the number of businesses I see that are closed or have reduced operations because they don't have enough employees, while millions are collecting unemployment checks. This must certainly be a factor in recent ammunition shortages.
And once upon a time, there was active and frequent international competition to determine which nation had the best shooters in all of the various disciplines. Now international shooting competition has dwindled, and it is hard to find, even when there is an Olympics, because the shooting sports have been demonized. So we are largely left with opinions. We have some guys right here who could outshoot George Digweed, to hear them talk. I'm mainly concerned with how well I can shoot. And gun reviews are largely a matter of personal taste. I read a lot of good things about Turkish shotguns, but haven't been moved to buy any yet.
In their time British guns were without doubt top of the tree ,unfortunately they became uneconomic to produce for the market they had ! Other makers gradually filled that niche ,and the rest as they say ,is history...... As for the British social structure ,that was machine gunned to pieces in 1914-18,then fragmented by high taxation to pay for that and the later unpleasantness by the Krauts. Britain was never to be the same again....
Well Nudge I have worked in France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland to name just a few though I am not think like you I can pontificate on each and every country, and as for the junior school yard the Brit queen is German yes she is of German decent at least if you where going to go to bring the countries Grand Mother or should I say Gross-mutter into the conversation, you could have the decency to use her correct family name though I feel that you only did know that she had German roots from the German family of Sax-Coburg-Gotha. The German roots of the Monarchs family are known to the people of Britain so it is back to the Ducks back and water again. I do not take your mud slinging seriously because I would rather have a cut and thrust conversation with someone who does have at least a smattering of knowledge on the subject they are talking about. Any further conversation on the above subjects I will refer you to my first post.
The epitome of fine guns is a late, bar in iron, Purdey pigeon gun with, of course, outside hammers. It encompasses strength, reliability, competition readiness, quiet elegance, quality of manufacture, and a name that needs no apology. Other guns share this model of Purdey's characteristics and quality, but the tiebreaker is always the name.
I'm quite happy drinking an English Ale at the temperature it is served at in the uk. Beats the hell out ice cold piss water Pilsner that passes for beer in this country any day.
I just wish that lovely warm, flat British ale were more available here. I have yet to find an American craft beer that comes close, and even Bass and Newkie Broon are getting harder to find. A while ago I found Newcastle brewed by Heineken in the Netherlands, nowhere close to the real thing, and more recently brewed by Lagunitas in California, downright vile. Oh, for a proper pint of McEwan's.
"Digweed is British, the end" but he shoots an Italian Perazzi.
The presenter uses the word "hunting" when it is actually shooting. British guns are probably best for "shooting" where the process is static. "Guns" (not hunters) are placed at pegs (another term indicative of the static nature of shooting). When moving from drive to drive guns are cosseted in slips and after the season they need a maker's once over.
Du Broff in an old Gun Digest article on the British shooting scene wrote that if there is any desire in a Briton to actively seek game by moving over land, this desire is quickly stamped out. In other words there is no true hunting in Britain, and is no wonder that the term hunting, when used over there refers to mounted fox hunting. For more on the difference between hunting and how it morphed into shooting see here:
Subjected to true hunting conditions these so called "best guns" will not last long. Try if you dare to drag a "best" over chukar terrain and see how well it lasts.
As for artistic merit, the assumption is that the British makers produced the most aesthetically pleasing guns. True if your aesthetic sense tends to Art Nouveau, a period that coincided with the development of the British gun used for static shooting.
There are other artistic trends. Arte Deco arguably produced a more modern and artistically more honest approach since it applied the "form follows function" principle in earnest. For more on this see here:
Setting the criteria and then delivering judgement is a well known debating trick used by the video presenter. Asserting that British wing shooting is the best in the world is that criterion, and naturally a British gun is best for that activity. But British wing shooting is not hunting. There is no British hunting over public land, in other words none for the common folk.
And that brings us to what we want be seen as and who we want to identified with. I am OK with the image of the farm kid dragging a Stevens 620, or a Winchester single shot while kicking rabbits out of a bush and carrying whatever I harvest by myself home to cook, rather than the lord who downs hundreds of birds in one day's shooting, touches none of them since there are pickers up for that mundane task, and certainly never cooks anything he shoots. The thought of being identified with such barbarity makes me cringe.
Well that's news to me. I shot a free range Fallow, muntjac, and Chinese Water deer as well as walked up Ducks and Pheasant. I did pay a small trespass fee but that is common in America as well.
I have been dragging my best gun across our high prairies in search of Roosters and grouse for about fifteen years and I see absolutely no ill effects from hunting that gun.
You will be hard pressed to find a bigger smile on face then when I roll a cagey wild bird over my dogs with that old Holland. Despite what all the nah sayers constantly spout, in the years I have owned that gun it has needed zero maintenance beyond cleaning and lube.
SKB, I lived in England for 14 years, started my "shooting" career there. I left when the police refused to renew my shotgun certificate because I could not produce a written agreement showing that I had the shooting rights over some piece of private land. Public land did not count as no shooting is allowed there.
The certificate having lapsed, due to their delay, I was told that if I moved the guns out of the house to a shop to sell I would be arrested for illegal possession. A "kind" police sergeant agreed to buy my guns. We agreed on a price, he picked them and handed me a folded check. I did not look at it, he was a trustworthy police officer. The check was for a lot less than we agreed.
We each have our experiences in life. Mine lead me to smile when I read a comment attributed to Bob Brister "if you have not been diddled by an Englishman, you haven't lived"
I deal a lot with the British as I import quite a few guns from them. In my experience they are no more or less honest than Americans, gentlemen as well as thieves are where you find them. I will say though that customer service and communication in Britain leaves quite a bit to be desired. In America, if you inquire about purchasing something or hiring someone to provide a service you will receive a prompt reply the vast majority of the time, the same cannot be said of Britain.
The late "Cactus Jack" O'Connor in his Shotgun Book states, regarding Limey gun fitting and snobbery- "You haven't really lived until you've been conned by a Brit".. True that. RWTF
Dickson, MacNaugton and DMB are pretty fine guns both aesthetically and mechanically.
For Olympics, sporting clay and fitasc - Beretta, Perazzi, Krieghoff, Kolar
Where are the British made O/U's.
Digweed, Faulds, Hustwaite, Solomon and Wisner are al ltop British champions. None shoot British Guns.
USA has Meins, Radulovich, Fanizzi, Kruse, Hancock, Matarese etc
Just quibbling a little bit. Whenever you have world class athletes, and money enters the fray, their choice of equipment is largely decided on the basis of who pays most. Each of the persons named shoot guns that are largely custom made for them. The country of apparent origin is immaterial to “what is”. I have intimate knowledge of the pro golf world. You can’t believe the shenanigans that go on to reconcile what the player likes to hit with what the player has signed on to promote.
Well that's news to me. I shot a free range Fallow, muntjac, and Chinese Water deer as well as walked up Ducks and Pheasant. I did pay a small trespass fee but that is common in America as well.
I have been dragging my best gun across our high prairies in search of Roosters and grouse for about fifteen years and I see absolutely no ill effects from hunting that gun.
You will be hard pressed to find a bigger smile on face then when I roll a cagey wild bird over my dogs with that old Holland. Despite what all the nah sayers constantly spout, in the years I have owned that gun it has needed zero maintenance beyond cleaning and lube.
Did you drag your best gun to Olde Blighty to shoot the deer? Did you do this last year? Will you do it again, this year, or, next? Why not? 20 years ago, I inquired about doing some hunting in France. My hosts, gracious, but honest, informed me that while it might not be technically illegal, it might as well be. As gunmakers, they had to score an invite from a landowner, and they would have a day out, surrounded by strangers, and they might get a shot at a duck, or not. The event usually ended as a party, and the guest of honor was most often a large boar that had been hit by a car, or shot on a hunt, but, usually, hit by a car. The pigs were a huge nuisance in that part of France, and getting worse. There were fees, of course, but, those fees promised them nothing, save they would be on the property that day.
They considered themselves lucky if they got out every five years. They were well connected, opposed to say, mostly anyone else. I was dumbfounded at how few options there were to this, and how they expected to produce hunting weapons in a culture that had almost no legal public hunting available to the masses.
As long as you have a pile of money to give them, them being the landowners, local enforcement agencies, and whatever government perfunctory is standing with his hand out, you are right, you can technically hunt, in Europe. Sometimes. What we have, here, is hugely different. The situation in Europe is most certainly not improving.
Good guns are much like gentlemen. Where you find them. Already pointed out, the good gun that is walked up to a peg in a slip, might not be all that great sitting in a duck boat for 40 seasons. Yes, I know guys that do that with a gun, and it is not an English gun.
Did you drag your best gun to Olde Blighty to shoot the deer? Did you do this last year? Will you do it again, this year, or, next? Why not? 20 years ago, I inquired about doing some hunting in France. My hosts, gracious, but honest, informed me that while it might not be technically illegal, it might as well be. As gunmakers, they had to score an invite from a landowner, and they would have a day out, surrounded by strangers, and they might get a shot at a duck, or not. The event usually ended as a party, and the guest of honor was most often a large boar that had been hit by a car, or shot on a hunt, but, usually, hit by a car. The pigs were a huge nuisance in that part of France, and getting worse. There were fees, of course, but, those fees promised them nothing, save they would be on the property that day.
They considered themselves lucky if they got out every five years. They were well connected, opposed to say, mostly anyone else. I was dumbfounded at how few options there were to this, and how they expected to produce hunting weapons in a culture that had almost no legal public hunting available to the masses.
As long as you have a pile of money to give them, them being the landowners, local enforcement agencies, and whatever government perfunctory is standing with his hand out, you are right, you can technically hunt, in Europe. Sometimes. What we have, here, is hugely different. The situation in Europe is most certainly not improving.
Good guns are much like gentlemen. Where you find them. Already pointed out, the good gun that is walked up to a peg in a slip, might not be all that great sitting in a duck boat for 40 seasons. Yes, I know guys that do that with a gun, and it is not an English gun.
Best, Ted
No I leave the Holland home when I deer hunt(are you really that clueless?????)
I might make it over next year for Stags and walked up birds if the Covid situation stabilizes, not this year.
That may be the case in France, I have not hunted there. The people I know in the UK get out multiple times per year for birds and big game.
The costs associated with my hunting in the UK were on par with hunting in America, very tolerable.
I far prefer the large amounts of public land on offer here in the States to the European model but as the saying goes "When in Rome...."
I'm not much of a duck hunter for for the walked up game I pursue my H&H has been the perfect gun for me. What other choose is up to them but I have made my choice and can live with it just fine. Tuck thinks so too....
Did you drag your best gun to Olde Blighty to shoot the deer? Did you do this last year? Will you do it again, this year, or, next? Why not? 20 years ago, I inquired about doing some hunting in France. My hosts, gracious, but honest, informed me that while it might not be technically illegal, it might as well be. As gunmakers, they had to score an invite from a landowner, and they would have a day out, surrounded by strangers, and they might get a shot at a duck, or not. The event usually ended as a party, and the guest of honor was most often a large boar that had been hit by a car, or shot on a hunt, but, usually, hit by a car. The pigs were a huge nuisance in that part of France, and getting worse. There were fees, of course, but, those fees promised them nothing, save they would be on the property that day.
They considered themselves lucky if they got out every five years. They were well connected, opposed to say, mostly anyone else. I was dumbfounded at how few options there were to this, and how they expected to produce hunting weapons in a culture that had almost no legal public hunting available to the masses.
As long as you have a pile of money to give them, them being the landowners, local enforcement agencies, and whatever government perfunctory is standing with his hand out, you are right, you can technically hunt, in Europe. Sometimes. What we have, here, is hugely different. The situation in Europe is most certainly not improving.
Good guns are much like gentlemen. Where you find them. Already pointed out, the good gun that is walked up to a peg in a slip, might not be all that great sitting in a duck boat for 40 seasons. Yes, I know guys that do that with a gun, and it is not an English gun.
Best, Ted
No I leave the Holland home when I deer hunt(are you really that clueless?????)
I might make it over next year for Stags and walked up birds if the Covid situation stabilizes, not this year.
That may be the case in France, I have not hunted there. The people I know in the UK get out multiple times per year for birds and big game.
The costs associated with my hunting in the UK were on par with hunting in America, very tolerable.
I far prefer the large amounts of public land on offer here in the States to the European model but as the saying goes "When in Rome...."
I'm not much of a duck hunter for for the walked up game I pursue my H&H has been the perfect gun for me. What other choose is up to them but I have made my choice and can live with it just fine. Tuck thinks so too....
My question doesn’t involve what gun you use to kill a deer on an estate in England (clueless?) rather, are you bringing a gun to England to use? Because, that is getting to the point where it is almost impossible, outside the US. Answer that question. You have had two tries at this point. I know half a dozen people who used to travel to England or Scotland to shoot. To a one, they don’t do that anymore, and toward the end, they certainly didn’t entertain the notion of bringing a gun to use. Or, ammunition. The best explanation I heard is the whole ordeal was an “Expensive, hot mess. You will be treated just fine, as long as you are buying, and you bring plenty of tip money”. OK, good enough, if that is what you are into, then fine. If I shoot a deer, I dress, butcher and cook a deer. Same with a bird. Same with a fish I catch. Not my deal if it ends any other way.
Yes, I brought the .25-06 Mauser I built in Gunsmithing school and the appropriate ammunition for it.
I eat what I shoot here in the States and live almost exclusively off of wild game, with the exception of store bought bacon and some lunchmeat. When I travel to hunt internationally I do not eat what I shoot usually, unless the circumstance allows for it.
I just wish that lovely warm, flat British ale were more available here. I have yet to find an American craft beer that comes close, and even Bass and Newkie Broon are getting harder to find. A while ago I found Newcastle brewed by Heineken in the Netherlands, nowhere close to the real thing, and more recently brewed by Lagunitas in California, downright vile. Oh, for a proper pint of McEwan's.
Hard to argue your point but I will say some of the very best ale I have had was while in Prague in 1994, the local dark beer(simply called Pevo dark) was amazing. I will never forget the huge steins of it being served in the beer garden of my hostile for less than a dime.
Yes, I brought the .25-06 Mauser I built in Gunsmithing school and the appropriate ammunition for it.
I eat what I shoot here in the States and live almost exclusively off of wild game, with the exception of store bought bacon and some lunchmeat. When I travel to hunt internationally I do not eat what I shoot usually, unless the circumstance allows for it.
Do I still need my other try Ted?
Let us know how it goes next time you show up in England to hunt, and if you manage to get a gun in the place.
I find it hard to recognise the description of fieldsports here in Britain from the above negative posts and can only assume that it is a reflection of experiences gathered from commercial shoots where you get what you pay for and probably pay dearly for the experience that is commercial driven shooting. Thankfully our sport is freely available to residents through syndicates for a yearly cost less than one days driven shooting. Deer stalking is not hard to come by at little if any cost and wildfowling is available through the right to shoot in Scotland in the area covered by the high and low tides. Our seasons are long, we have geese ducks and other wildfowl in great numbers and syndicate shooting for game is easily obtainable with little effort or cash.
I can’t see how shotgunlover failed to have his shotgun certificate renewed when there is no need to have access to private land or game shooting to qualify. Clay pigeon shooting is good reason as is wildfowling over the previously mentioned tidal areas which are public lands. His tale of being swindled by a police sergeant with a folded cheque seems to me to reflect more prejudice than anything else and begs the question why did he not return with the cheque to rectify the matter. Britain isn’t a police state and officers are accountable for their actions.
Quite a bit of this thread seems to indicate that there is little real knowledge on this forum of fieldsports in Britain. I have shot here over fifty years and have enjoyed predominantly rough shooting ,coastal and inland wildfowling ,deer stalking and driven shooting ,none of my personal experience is reflected in the views expressed by many contributors to this thread. I can only assume that they have little personal experience of something that they seem to hold very strong opinions on. Perhaps accessing articles in the British Shooting Times or Sporting Gun magazines would provide a valuable insight into British fieldsports that seems to be lacking in some of the contributors here.
I find it hard to recognise the description of fieldsports here in Britain from the above negative posts and can only assume that it is a reflection of experiences gathered from commercial shoots where you get what you pay for and probably pay dearly for the experience that is commercial driven shooting. Thankfully our sport is freely available to residents through syndicates for a yearly cost less than one days driven shooting. Deer stalking is not hard to come by at little if any cost and wildfowling is available through the right to shoot in Scotland in the area covered by the high and low tides. Our seasons are long, we have geese ducks and other wildfowl in great numbers and syndicate shooting for game is easily obtainable with little effort or cash.
I can’t see how shotgunlover failed to have his shotgun certificate renewed when there is no need to have access to private land or game shooting to qualify. Clay pigeon shooting is good reason as is wildfowling over the previously mentioned tidal areas which are public lands. His tale of being swindled by a police sergeant with a folded cheque seems to me to reflect more prejudice than anything else and begs the question why did he not return with the cheque to rectify the matter. Britain isn’t a police state and officers are accountable for their actions.
Quite a bit of this thread seems to indicate that there is little real knowledge on this forum of fieldsports in Britain. I have shot here over fifty years and have enjoyed predominantly rough shooting ,coastal and inland wildfowling ,deer stalking and driven shooting ,none of my personal experience is reflected in the views expressed by many contributors to this thread. I can only assume that they have little personal experience of something that they seem to hold very strong opinions on. Perhaps accessing articles in the British Shooting Times or Sporting Gun magazines would provide a valuable insight into British fieldsports that seems to be lacking in some of the contributors here.
[quote=ksauers1]Thankfully our sport is freely available to residents through syndicates for a yearly cost less than one days driven shoot
I can’t see how shotgunlover failed to have his shotgun certificate renewed
I'd rather hunt in the US, at least for now until the progressives make it illegal.
What's a syndicate? Yearly cost , as in hunting license? Shotgun certificate?
I'll buy my license for whichever state I choose to hunt in. Drive my truck to said state, park at public land ,step out and hunt.
It doesn't sound near that free in England.
I’m not disputing the fact that many ,or all,Americans would prefer to hunt in the U.S and I am not comparing the two.My post addresses the fact that previous posts reflected little knowledge or understanding of sport in Britain as it is today. The information is freely available on the internet regarding sport in Britain, syndicates etc and rather than argue over which is better or cheaper or more freely available for equal quality of sport I would refer you to google so that you can make your own mind up. My experience has been that more unites than divides fieldsportsmen but I find sweeping ill founded statements normally with a political bias alien to the common bond we share. Should you be genuinely interested in any specific aspect of sport in Scotland then feel free to personal message me for an honest answer. “What was the topic again ?” I was replying to discussion which arose from the first post regarding the view expressed that not only British guns were better but also wing shooting ,so not off topic.
"I can’t see how shotgunlover failed to have his shotgun certificate renewed when there is no need to have access to private land or game shooting to qualify. Clay pigeon shooting is good reason as is wildfowling over the previously mentioned tidal areas which are public lands. His tale of being swindled by a police sergeant with a folded cheque seems to me to reflect more prejudice than anything else and begs the question why did he not return with the cheque to rectify the matter."
I qualified in law at the University of London. This all happened in my final year at law school. And as the school of American Legal Realism teaches us, in law there is more than what is written in the statute book
The chief of Hornsey Police station in London said he would not renew my shotgun certificate. I could have appealed the decision in the County court, at an estimted cost of two thousand pounds back then. A Scottish sergeant volunteered to buy my guns. He had a valid shotgun license. I asked to take them to Whaley"s gunshop to sell them there. Another police sergeant, a red haired guy from the Midlands judging by his accent said "can't let people like you carrying shotguns about the area mate. And beside you got a funny face. If you move them out of the house I'll arrest you". I had asked Whaley's to send someone to pick up the guns from the house since their dealer's license would cover the transportation, and Mrs Whaley told me they were unwilling to antagonise the police.
So the Scottish sergeant's offer seemed the only way out of the impasse.
Yes, you can fight such abuses, assuming you have the time and money. And the stomach for what will follow. Yes I did go looking for the Scottish sergeant who bought my guns regarding the check, and was told that he had nothing to say to me and our business together was done. I will not repeat the red haired sergeant's comments who was present at this meeting.
You see any prejudice in any of the above let me know. If anyone wants the sergeant's name PM me.
Coincidentally, Diggory Hadoake lived in the Hornsey area and he most probably knows Whaley's gunshop and the surroundings.
KSauer, in a nutshell, a shotgun certificate is a license to possess shotguns with barrels over 24 inches. Rifled firearms, short barreled shotguns and airguns producing over 12 ft lbs go on a firearms certificate.
Back to original topic. I wonder if the video presenter in his sweeping statement re British guns includes the ones made by Perrugini Visini for Purdey, and other similar agreements between British makers and others.
My experience has been that more unites than divides fieldsportsmen but I find sweeping ill founded statements normally with a political bias alien to the common bond we share.
Variations of this comment have been used by Liberal Left gun owners for decades to justify their support and defense of anti-gun Liberal Left politicians. But the hard truth is that any gun owner who votes for and who supports anti-gunners is deceiving us when they claim we have some common bond. In reality, they are helping to pave the way for the erosion and eventual complete loss of our Gun Rights.
They all make the claim that their politics is based upon much more than being a single issue supporter of gun rights. But they never attempt to get their progressive Liberal Left politicians to modify their near universal disdain and hatred for private ownership of firearms.
I'm glad Shotgunlover took the time to explain how he lost his firearms certificate, and essentially lost his rights to own firearms, or to even lawfully dispose of them for a fair price. We could go on for days detailing similar abuses against law abiding firearms owners wherever progressive Leftists and Democrats rule. Smith & Wesson is now moving it's headquarters and operations to Tennessee because of new restrictive laws in Democrat Massachusetts.
I reject any foolish and dishonest notion that I share any commpn interest with those who are helping anti-gunners in any way, shape, or form. Accepting such lies only emboldens them to continue undermining us.
Shotgunlover. I am surprised ,given your law degree, that you did not arrange to meet with the sergeants superiors to bring to light the way in which you were cheated rather than try to approach him directly. I’m sure the chief inspector or higher would have been interested to hear how the men under his command are dealing with the public. This would probably have resolved the matter in your favour with no need for any financial outlay.The fact that you were threatened with arrest partly on the basis of having a funny face must surely qualify as an example of “ in law there is more than what is written in the statute book “.I am equally surprised that you gave up on the matter when you were told the sergeant was unavailable and also that you failed to contact another RFD ,registered firearms dealer, to have the guns removed and subsequently sold. All in all a strange tale but as you include detail of the second sergeants red hair ,Whaley’s gun shop and the fact that Diggory Haddoke resides in the area I’m sure that makes it all the more plausible for some of those reading your account.
SKB, I lived in England for 14 years, started my "shooting" career there. I left when the police refused to renew my shotgun certificate because I could not produce a written agreement showing that I had the shooting rights over some piece of private land. Public land did not count as no shooting is allowed there.
The certificate having lapsed, due to their delay, I was told that if I moved the guns out of the house to a shop to sell I would be arrested for illegal possession. A "kind" police sergeant agreed to buy my guns. We agreed on a price, he picked them and handed me a folded check. I did not look at it, he was a trustworthy police officer. The check was for a lot less than we agreed.
We each have our experiences in life. Mine lead me to smile when I read a comment attributed to Bob Brister "if you have not been diddled by an Englishman, you haven't lived"
As a lawyer you should be aware that there is no requirement in law in the UK to have any agreement ,written or unwritten ,showing shooting rights or permission over private land as a prerequisite to qualify for having a shotgun certificate. I fail to see how a person of good standing would be refused a certificate as that is quite unusual. I think there is more to this tale than meets the eye and it maybe the case that the Chief Constable considered you unfit to possess and your subsequent experience with the sergeants who showed you little respect may reinforce that conclusion.
"Digweed is British, the end" but he shoots an Italian Perazzi.
The presenter uses the word "hunting" when it is actually shooting. British guns are probably best for "shooting" where the process is static. "Guns" (not hunters) are placed at pegs (another term indicative of the static nature of shooting). When moving from drive to drive guns are cosseted in slips and after the season they need a maker's once over.
Du Broff in an old Gun Digest article on the British shooting scene wrote that if there is any desire in a Briton to actively seek game by moving over land, this desire is quickly stamped out. In other words there is no true hunting in Britain, and is no wonder that the term hunting, when used over there refers to mounted fox hunting. For more on the difference between hunting and how it morphed into shooting see here:
Subjected to true hunting conditions these so called "best guns" will not last long. Try if you dare to drag a "best" over chukar terrain and see how well it lasts.
As for artistic merit, the assumption is that the British makers produced the most aesthetically pleasing guns. True if your aesthetic sense tends to Art Nouveau, a period that coincided with the development of the British gun used for static shooting.
There are other artistic trends. Arte Deco arguably produced a more modern and artistically more honest approach since it applied the "form follows function" principle in earnest. For more on this see here:
Setting the criteria and then delivering judgement is a well known debating trick used by the video presenter. Asserting that British wing shooting is the best in the world is that criterion, and naturally a British gun is best for that activity. But British wing shooting is not hunting. There is no British hunting over public land, in other words none for the common folk.
And that brings us to what we want be seen as and who we want to identified with. I am OK with the image of the farm kid dragging a Stevens 620, or a Winchester single shot while kicking rabbits out of a bush and carrying whatever I harvest by myself home to cook, rather than the lord who downs hundreds of birds in one day's shooting, touches none of them since there are pickers up for that mundane task, and certainly never cooks anything he shoots. The thought of being identified with such barbarity makes me cringe.
You seem unaware that the bulk of shooting in the British Isles consists of walked up rough shooting,wildfowling and pigeon shooting. There are numerous books available both modern and historical that would give you a clearer idea of sport here. If you consider driven shooting over a pegged line of guns the norm then you are woefully ill informed. Your assertion that no public land exists for hunting fails to recognise the tidal wildfowling available over public foreshore and the existence of wildfowling clubs that caters to that interest. I assume you are aware of the amount of British guns ill suited to driven shooting for example the good quality non ejectors and heavy 8lb plus 12 bore wildfowling guns all there to cater for the needs of the British hunter. I have actively sought game for fifty years covering many a mile as have countless others here in Britain. I suggest you take steps to become better informed and refrain from peddling stereotypes and gross inaccurate generalisations. As regards how well a best gun will last I would suggest that it’s fitting will ensure that it lasts better than most and that dragging it through chukar country it’s external condition will be no worse than any other gun. I have hunted with my English guns through dense gorse and they are still in great condition. One gun is over 100 years old has never malfunctioned or indeed been serviced for over 20 years in my ownership.A friend regularly wildfowled with a Lancaster sidelock for many years on the inhospitable foreshore with no problems ,guns are for using and he certainly used his but looked after it. He certainly did not drag it through cover but then few sportsmen do. There is a whole area of fieldsports that lies between the Lord ,now more likely to be a businessman,shooting driven birds in excess and the farm boy with his single barrel AYA cosmos it’s a shame you are unaware of that fact yet seem to consider yourself an authority on British fieldsports.
Did you drag your best gun to Olde Blighty to shoot the deer? Did you do this last year? Will you do it again, this year, or, next? Why not? 20 years ago, I inquired about doing some hunting in France. My hosts, gracious, but honest, informed me that while it might not be technically illegal, it might as well be. As gunmakers, they had to score an invite from a landowner, and they would have a day out, surrounded by strangers, and they might get a shot at a duck, or not. The event usually ended as a party, and the guest of honor was most often a large boar that had been hit by a car, or shot on a hunt, but, usually, hit by a car. The pigs were a huge nuisance in that part of France, and getting worse. There were fees, of course, but, those fees promised them nothing, save they would be on the property that day.
They considered themselves lucky if they got out every five years. They were well connected, opposed to say, mostly anyone else. I was dumbfounded at how few options there were to this, and how they expected to produce hunting weapons in a culture that had almost no legal public hunting available to the masses.
As long as you have a pile of money to give them, them being the landowners, local enforcement agencies, and whatever government perfunctory is standing with his hand out, you are right, you can technically hunt, in Europe. Sometimes. What we have, here, is hugely different. The situation in Europe is most certainly not improving.
Good guns are much like gentlemen. Where you find them. Already pointed out, the good gun that is walked up to a peg in a slip, might not be all that great sitting in a duck boat for 40 seasons. Yes, I know guys that do that with a gun, and it is not an English gun.
Best, Ted
Ted, I've dragged a shotgun to Scotland several times to shoot driven birds. Also have done a few walk up days. The place where we shoot takes care of the necessary paperwork with the local police and sends me my certificate. One year, I took a Merkel sidelock. I forgot to specify, when I provided the information for my certificate, that the gun was a sxs and not an OU. So my certificate was incorrect. The driver waiting to collect us at the airport had the corrected version. But the young Scottish woman who asked me to open my case didn't notice the discrepancy.
I haven't gone now for 3 or 4 years. But I went on an annual basis for several years. And in spite of having completed the necessary paperwork with US Customs, I was held up every time by Customs on my return from the UK. The last go round, a Customs officer told me that he saw they'd run me through the process repeatedly, and said he'd make sure it didn't happen again. Haven't gone since, so I'm not sure whether the problem has been corrected. But never the slightest problem on the UK end.
Well, let us see. As a financially strapped student i did not own my own property. I lived in a room in a house in which other students (studying accountancy, medicine and architecture, all professions requiring a spotless record for future employment). I lived in the same room, same house when I got my certificate. Come renewal time the police, and I am guessing this one, regarded my location as an insecure premises.
I hunted at a farm called Bury farm near Bedford. The farmer was the only one out of many I had asked who would allow me to hunt. Rabbits, pigeons and some times he would insist that I contribute to seagull cullilng. Cost was one pound per visit. And the police did ask for written proof that he would allow me to shoot there. Whether they had the legal right to do so or not is a moot point.
The guns in question were a Greener single shot, a Mossberg 410 bolt action with tubular magazine, a 9mm Glatt garden gun. Total value back then around 30 pounds. Spending hundreds, at best, to retain 30 seemed like a futile strategy. The check was for fourteen pounds.
I was not the only shotgun owner targeted by the Hornsey police. One of the refusals made it to County Court and the police were obliged to state the reason for exercising their discretionary power to refuse a certificate renewal. The case was mentioned in the Times Law Report I think. The owner had secure premises, a reason to own a shotgun, but the owner's brother who lived outside London had a criminal record and occasionally visited the applicants home, this was revealed in court as the reason for the refusal. The judge deemed it insufficient and the man retained his guns, but did bear heavy legal fees.
There was a silver lining to this cloud. It encouraged me to leave the UK, get employed by a major US multinational, marry a wonderful girl from Illinois, and eventually get into publishing a successful hunting magazine. Beats becoming a crusty London solicitor anytime.
"seem to consider yourself an authority on British fieldsports."
I never promoted myself as an authority on anything. Others, like Gough Thomas (with whom I had a long correspondence, Geoffrey Boothroyd (who wrote for a long time for my magazine), have documented the evolution of the British best gun. IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting. I have said that best guns are specialised for this type of shooting and expressed amazement that these implements, that do not fare well in what is called hunting elsewhere, were blindly copied when their patents lapsed.
I am also fascinated at how truly inventive British people, like William Baker are ignored by the proponents of "best". Baker's genius in simplicity is exemplified by the BSA Single XII but I have never seen it included in any list of great British guns.
Some craftsmen improved the basic types.Stefano Zanotti improved the basic Holland lock by giving it a rebounding feature and more efficient sears. He also reinforced the lump geometry. Perazzi improved the Boss system and made it almost infinitely repairable. Beretta took the boxlock and in the model 626 gave it an engineering refinement that surpasses the Anson-Deeley hands down. In view of these and other improvements and innovations it is a bit of a stretch for someone to say that British guns are "best". The evidence says otherwise.
Good to see K3” posting again. Thought maybe he got caught in a bad part of Glasgow and took a spinning Thai boxing kick to the head and forgot his user name and password.
Those of you dragging your arses off to work, have fun. Think I’ll just stay here and drink ( coffee) smoke (tobacco) and shoot starlings with a fancy German BB gun (Weihrauch). Read some newspapers too.
______________________________________ Sell some puts shortly too. Money for nuthin’.
That is a surprising remark coming from a gunsmith. We are obviously judging things from different points of view and apply different criteria.
Baker managed to make an action that can be made from flat stock, uses one single coil spring to power tumbler, trigger and give a rebounding action, and employs a safety bent to prevent accidental discharge.
In this you see a Yugo, I see genius. Doing more with less is an engineering ideal, or so I have read.
He is the same Baker that gave us the Lancaster 12/20, the Baker ejector, and numerous other patents that were employed by the big names without much recognition being given to the inventor.
Interesting that the Lancaster 12/20 comes from the same brain as the shotgun equivalent of the Yugo!
My experience has been that more unites than divides fieldsportsmen but I find sweeping ill founded statements normally with a political bias alien to the common bond we share.
Variations of this comment have been used by Liberal Left gun owners for decades to justify their support and defense of anti-gun Liberal Left politicians. But the hard truth is that any gun owner who votes for and who supports anti-gunners is deceiving us when they claim we have some common bond. In reality, they are helping to pave the way for the erosion and eventual complete loss of our Gun Rights.
They all make the claim that their politics is based upon much more than being a single issue supporter of gun rights. But they never attempt to get their progressive Liberal Left politicians to modify their near universal disdain and hatred for private ownership of firearms.
I'm glad Shotgunlover took the time to explain how he lost his firearms certificate, and essentially lost his rights to own firearms, or to even lawfully dispose of them for a fair price. We could go on for days detailing similar abuses against law abiding firearms owners wherever progressive Leftists and Democrats rule. Smith & Wesson is now moving it's headquarters and operations to Tennessee because of new restrictive laws in Democrat Massachusetts.
I reject any foolish and dishonest notion that I share any commpn interest with those who are helping anti-gunners in any way, shape, or form. Accepting such lies only emboldens them to continue undermining us.
Don’t worry Keith I think you are the exception that proves the rule anything we may have in common regarding fieldsports is overshadowed by your ad nauseum political rhetoric.
"seem to consider yourself an authority on British fieldsports."
I never promoted myself as an authority on anything. Others, like Gough Thomas (with whom I had a long correspondence, Geoffrey Boothroyd (who wrote for a long time for my magazine), have documented the evolution of the British best gun. IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting. I have said that best guns are specialised for this type of shooting and expressed amazement that these implements, that do not fare well in what is called hunting elsewhere, were blindly copied when their patents lapsed.
I am also fascinated at how truly inventive British people, like William Baker are ignored by the proponents of "best". Baker's genius in simplicity is exemplified by the BSA Single XII but I have never seen it included in any list of great British guns.
Some craftsmen improved the basic types.Stefano Zanotti improved the basic Holland lock by giving it a rebounding feature and more efficient sears. He also reinforced the lump geometry. Perazzi improved the Boss system and made it almost infinitely repairable. Beretta took the boxlock and in the model 626 gave it an engineering refinement that surpasses the Anson-Deeley hands down. In view of these and other improvements and innovations it is a bit of a stretch for someone to say that British guns are "best". The evidence says otherwise.
All very interesting shotgunlover but fails to address your earlier mistaken contention that “There is no British hunting over public land ,in other words none for the common folk” I hope I have been of some use in enlightening you that this is not the case. PS your name dropping of Gough Thomas and Geoffrey Boothroyd failed to impress I’m Scottish not American.
IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting.
No driven shooting outside the UK? They've made it illegal in places like Spain and Hungary??
Actually, as a young guy in Iowa, I participated in driven pheasant shooting. Practiced even more frequently in South Dakota. Differs from driven shooting in the UK in that both the beaters and the guns have shotguns. Works out fine as long as everyone remembers the "blue sky" rule. Occasionally we still do it on a very small scale: A couple hunters with dogs pushing through a field in the direction of a couple blockers with guns at the far end.
IT was developed for a specialised form of shooting which is not seen outside the UK, namely driven shooting.
No driven shooting outside the UK? They've made it illegal in places like Spain and Hungary??
Actually, as a young guy in Iowa, I participated in driven pheasant shooting. Practiced even more frequently in South Dakota. Differs from driven shooting in the UK in that both the beaters and the guns have shotguns. Works out fine as long as everyone remembers the "blue sky" rule. Occasionally we still do it on a very small scale: A couple hunters with dogs pushing through a field in the direction of a couple blockers with guns at the far end.
A lot of syndicate shooting in UK follows the same lines, commonly termed walk one stand one. The guns on the day ,usually ten or twelve ,are divided into two teams and take turn in beating cover or woodland towards the standing guns. Any birds flying back or to the side thus avoiding the standing guns are fair game for those walking. Partridge driving in Spain and pheasant drives in Hungary mimic that available in Britain. Of course the root of Driven Game shooting in England was the Battue shooting of Germany and brought to England by Prince Albert when he married Queen Victoria.
About 15 years ago my family had a driven deer shoot on one of my farms. Farm is sitting on a peninsula, along the river, with 30-50 acre wood sections on three sides. Shooters were placed in the middle fields waiting for the deer to be driven out by the beaters. Deer were everywhere. They only drove two sections of woods and all the remaining deer were now in the last section. Some cousin made the remark with 23 deer dead that there was a lot of work ahead and thought adding more to it might not be wise. I’m sure the farmer was happy for 23 less deer to feed soy beans to, but would have been happier with another 20-30 killed. Took about three hours to clean up the mess and load up the gutted deer for the processor. By then deer were popping their heads out of that third section of woods.
That was the first deer drive in my family in almost 40 years. Deer drives were very effective way to kill deer in my youth. With near pestilence numbers of deer today drives are no longer needed to obtain deer. I know it would not last long but a 50% herd reduction would go a long ways to getting deer numbers under control and allow for better management. I can kill 75 deer on that farm, according to the state, but I am not allowed to do anything with more than the legal number of deer I am allowed to harvest. I won’t just shoot and waste so now I rent the deer hunting out and give them a discount on next years rent for every deer killed over 24. Kill less than 24 and the rent goes up next year. I don’t want hunters passing up every deer they see hoping for one prized buck. That just eats the farmer out of business. If they only knew 100 would be the magic number for both myself and the farmer. Still 30+ helps.
PS your name dropping of Gough Thomas…failed to impress I’m Scottish not American.
Kristin Scott would have gotten my attention.
For the cover of the novel From Russia, with Love (1957), Fleming wanted a design incorporating a pistol and a rose. Boothroyd posted his own weapon to illustrator Richard Chopping for use on the cover: a .38 Smith & Wesson snubnosed revolver, modified by removing a third of the trigger guard. Boothroyd was questioned by police when a similar weapon was used in a triple murder in Glasgow… wiki
Bloody ‘ell.
_____________________________ Be careful out there K3”. Maybe better to dip over to Dundee for a pint.
Geoffrey Boothroyd was a real gentleman besides his love for the British side by side in all its variants he enjoyed ownership of his Winchester Model 12 and had a custom stock and forend made for it.He was very much a hands on gun expert with a great ability to pass on his enthusiasm for all things gun related.
You count as public land the zone between high and low tide. As you might have gathered what most posters here understand by that term is actual land, not a tidal zone. Like one poster above put it, he parks his car on public land, gets out and his license gives him the right to hunt right there. Can you name a piece of land in the UK where you can do that? Do what Americans call upland hunting on public land? The british way is that the right to pursue game belongs to the landowner or his assigns, which is the opposite of regarding regulated hunting as a constitutional right and game as a public resource. In some countries the right to hunt extends over unfenced private land too.
I cited Thomas and Boothroyd as authorities on the subject at hand. Thomas, in addition to being a gun writer, was a qualified engineer. Boothroyd collected and organized information on British gunmakers for more than fifty years. I do not know if Geoffrey was Scottish, but all the years we were in touch his home address was in Glasgow, you should be proud of that.
That is a surprising remark coming from a gunsmith. We are obviously judging things from different points of view and apply different criteria.
Baker managed to make an action that can be made from flat stock, uses one single coil spring to power tumbler, trigger and give a rebounding action, and employs a safety bent to prevent accidental discharge.
In this you see a Yugo, I see genius. Doing more with less is an engineering ideal, or so I have read.
He is the same Baker that gave us the Lancaster 12/20, the Baker ejector, and numerous other patents that were employed by the big names without much recognition being given to the inventor.
Interesting that the Lancaster 12/20 comes from the same brain as the shotgun equivalent of the Yugo!
Yes, you are correct, different points of view and criteria.
Wonderful that he could do all that with a single coil spring but who cares really? It is just a machine made, ugly single shot gun designed so the least amount of overhead is incurred during the manufacturing process. No thought of fit, finish, balance or aesthetics. A Yugo of shotgun, goes bang for minimal investment but beyond that you really cannot say much for it. Certainly no skill was required on the part of the gunmaker.
You count as public land the zone between high and low tide. As you might have gathered what most posters here understand by that term is actual land, not a tidal zone. Like one poster above put it, he parks his car on public land, gets out and his license gives him the right to hunt right there. Can you name a piece of land in the UK where you can do that? Do what Americans call upland hunting on public land? The british way is that the right to pursue game belongs to the landowner or his assigns, which is the opposite of regarding regulated hunting as a constitutional right and game as a public resource.
I cited Thomas and Boothroyd as authorities on the subject at hand. Thomas, in addition to being a gun writer, was a qualified engineer. Boothroyd collected and organized information on British gunmakers for more than fifty years. I do not know if Geoffrey was Scottish, but all the years we were in touch his home address was in Glasgow, you should be proud of that.
I hope your reluctance to admit that you were wrong to state that” there is no British hunting over public land in other words none for the common folk” doesn’t drag on. I have already explained that foreshore wildfowling is available to all and has a thriving club scene I fail to see how that being the case does not prove your statement wrong. It seems you wish to redefine the definition of public land to suit your argument. As to there being no hunting for common folk in Britain that grossly misrepresents reality but seems to suit your ill founded beliefs and how you wish to portray British fieldsports. As I have already stated I think you should make an effort to educate yourself on the variety of fieldsports available and the extent to which they are enjoyed by the average working man instead of relying on lazy stereotypes. I read both Gough Thomas and Geoffrey Boothroyd articles weekly over many years and have all their books so am well acquainted with their writing. I knew Geoffrey Boothroyd personally and visited his house on the South side of Glasgow on several occasions I fail to see how their writing has anything to do with fieldsports as practiced here in Britain and your ignorance of the subject.
KOnor, OK there is public hunting in the zone between high and low tide.
What is this club scene you refer to? Something like the old WAAGBI? The acronym if I remember right stands for Wildfowlers Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
You are lucky to have met Geoffrey in person. Our contact was via letter and phone.
KOnor, OK there is public hunting in the zone between high and low tide.
What is this club scene you refer to? Something like the old WAAGBI? The acronym if I remember right stands for Wildfowlers Association of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
You are lucky to have met Geoffrey in person. Our contact was via letter and phone.
The club scene I referred to was the existence of wildfowling clubs on all the main wildfowling estuaries of Britain ,at one point represented by WAGBI ,and came about largely to safeguard wildfowling and represent its interests.WAGBI has now morphed into BASC the British Assosciation for Shooting and Conservation. I think it would be fair to say that BASC’s popularity within the shooting community is mixed ,not helped by their recent stance to promote the move from lead to non lead shot for all game shooting. This was seen by some as a betrayal and pandering to commercial shooting who were relying on the continental market for disposal of their game birds and who were insisting on lead free meat. That ,it seems,no exemption will exist for those shooting game for their own table means that there will possibly be an array of shotguns deemed unsuitable for further use. Also the lead shot historic link with the past will be broken and we will no longer be able to enjoy the full flexibility of the 12 bore and its vast array of loads. Unfortunately BASC has no one of the stature of the likes of John Anderton ,it’s first full time director,a great speaker and defender of shooters rights and wildfowling interests and the driving force behind the formation of the WAGBI affiliated wildfowling clubs.
When Geoffrey wrote an autobiographical article in the Shooting Times he illustrated it with a photograph I had taken of him at the CLA Floors Castle Game Fair holding an eight bore semi automatic wildfowling gun, he definitely had an eclectic taste in guns in the broadest sense of the word and he enjoyed immersing himself in their history as much as he enjoyed using them. As I wrote earlier he was a true gentleman.
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Olympics-1901-Match/i-cwqZnF7/0/b119617f/S/1901%20British%20Team-S.jpg)
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Olympics-1901-Match/i-mg5MfG8/0/d2982fd7/S/1901%20Scottish%20and%20American%20Teams-S.jpg)
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Olympics-1901-Match/i-5NN3g7v/0/35086ad1/M/US_trap_shooting_team_1912_Olympics-M.jpg)
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Olympics-1901-Match/i-3VSXPxh/0/e90abc22/L/Jay%20Graham%201912%20Olympics%2014-L.jpg)
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Olympics-1901-Match/i-SndRmwj/0/7483c6b7/L/1920%20Olympic%20Team%20Western-L.jpg)
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Olympics-1901-Match/i-kkp2npX/0/8d6ff4e7/S/1924OlympicTeam-S.jpg)
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Shooters/Historic-Shooters/i-zHwjpSv/0/3399b3dc/M/Royal%20Shooting%20Party-M.jpg)
![[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]](https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/65715_600x400.jpg)