I've wanted to ask this for a long time, but always backed out for the obvious reason that many people are non-believers when it comes to the subject of seeing the shot cloud in the air in the vicinity of a clay bird. When I began shooting sporting clays in registered competition I was fortunately exposed to several top flight sporting clays pros, because they were sponsored by a close friend who owned a major choke tube company. I would hear one of them say occasionally something like this, "You're behind it and over it. I saw your shot that time". I was incredulous at first, doubtful to the extreme, but smart enough to take correction. When I corrected my sight picture after one of them would say they saw my shot I would connect. I soon became a believer, and asked numerous questions like "What does it look like?", or "Can you describe how it appears?" They had a tough time describing it, so I wondered.
I began looking more intensely at others' targets, hoping to see something, but never saw what I was expecting to see. Then, one day I saw a "disturbance" near a clay bird in the air, and it registered on me that maybe I had just seen the shot cloud. I knew kinda what to look for then, and began to see it more often. Some days I would see it several times, other days not at all. I learned that I could seldom see it against a background of trees, but rarely I could, and it would seem to "shine" for that microsecond. Most often now when I see it, it will be against a clear blue sky background, and against that background what I see is more of a disturbance in the background than any well defined picture of a shot cloud. Lighting conditions have to be right, too. I've never seen it when I'm shooting, and I never see others' shot when they smoke the bird, but do so occasionally when they miss.
It's not make believe, guys. It's real. Two of my regular shooting buddies and I can do this occasionally. If one of us is struggling with a particular presentation and missing them, we usually don't offer any suggestion when asked if we "know where he is" unless we can see the shot. When one of us sees it "clearly", and the shooter makes the proper correction, it's "dust city".
Are there any other serious clays shooters here who can ever see the shot cloud?
I don't often see shot clouds and never really look for them, but once or twice I think I've seen "something". I have seen stunningly clear photos of shot intercepting mallards, but that is with the aid of a fast shutter and magnification, so not really the same thing.
It is easy to see rifle bullets that are moving at about the same speed or even faster. I can often follow them for hundreds of yards with a spotting scope, but lesser distances with the naked eye, so seeing shot patterns should be quite doable - with the right background and lighting.
Sure. Conditions have to be just right as you mention.
I started as a trapshooter. Our club had nine traps. Our annual picnic was in late August. Late in the day during the picnic we would have a 'porch shoot' from a spot behind trap #4 even with the clubhouse porch.
With the low sun angle that time of day in late August we could see the shot cloud at long distance trap more often than not. I've seen it a few times at sporting clays, but not very often. It's elusive.
And now that I think about it the nickel plated 6's I know damn well some of those old sandbaggers were using probably didn't hurt....
I've seen something, depending upon the light and background, but I'm not sure it is actually the shot cloud, or a refractive disturbance that occurs when the shot cloud drops below the speed of sound. As you said, I don't recall seeing it when I'm doing the shooting.
I do know for sure that you can see large caliber bullets at low velocities, such as .45 cal. pistol target loads, when the light is right.
I doubt that I could see the shot cloud even if my somewhat deficient shooting eye (the R one) were my master eye. But if great hitters in baseball can see the stitches on a 90+ mph fastball, I'm willing to believe that some people can see the shot cloud.
A clear, blue sky day with the sun over your back and shiny shot like that of the clever Bol ‘Dor shells and one can at times read/see the shot cloud. Instructors rely on ‘reading the barrel’ to read a miss much more so than seeing the shot cloud. It’s neat when you can see it though.
And now that I think about it the nickel plated 6's I know damn well some of those old sandbaggers were using probably didn't hurt....
When I learned to see it, many years ago, we were using a lot of White Gold shells which contained their proprietary shot, called Diamond Shot, that appeared to be nickel plated but is just polished in some manner to give it a glossy shine. That probably helped us to see it, too, as you mentioned.
I have seen it many times when someone else is shooting and missing. Never when they hit the target and never when I am shooting. I doubt anyone I shoot clays with uses anything other than regular lead shot.
Sure. Almost never when I'm shooting. Almost always watching another shooter if I'm behind them...easier on the Trap field with the tight chokes or low 7 on the Skeet field and I'm pulling. I rarely see the cloud if I'm off to the side ie. I'm on Station 1 and the shooter is on Station 5 on the trap field. Critically important for a coach...then being able to explain WHY they were over, behind, etc.
It can be seen if conditions are right. The eye and brain are pretty wonderful things and sometimes combine their skills to pick it up. I used to do a lot of long range rifle shooting and this required spotting and scoring for the adjacent shooter. Through the spotting scope the flight of the bullet could easily be seen as a sort of wedge of disturbance in the air and I could tell the score even before the markers returned it even out to 1,000 yards. I must admit my shot cloud spotting was a bit easier when my old eyes were a bit younger. Doing some shooting instructing on a local range helps with knowing just where to focus and just where to stand. Lagopus.....
I love the game of baseball, played for years, but I never saw any stitches unless I was holding the ball in my hand. I have shot clay targets for decades but I have never seen the "spin". Regardless of my lack of talent, I have enjoyed both games as much as if I could "see" what some others can see. Maybe next year.
The ability to "see things in slow motion" (Zeitraffer phenomenon) in order to process images more quickly would have a great advantage in shooting sports, and many others like ping pong and hitting a 100 mph fast ball. https://brainblogger.com/2014/10/09/brain-trickery-seeing-in-slow-motion/
I can see shot cloud when others shoot and sometimes when I miss but never when I hit a target. To me it looks like smoke. It is easier to see if you don't really try to focus on it, look at the target and learn to understand the "smoke " that is about the size of a basketball is the shot cloud. For me a slightly overcast day was easier for me to learn to see the cloud. Both our trap and skeet field have trees for background so that may help.
Doc Drew, I've experienced a very few times the slow motion effect, but when I see a shot cloud, or see the rotation of a clay target, it's not like that. It happens in such a brief microsecond that it's hard to describe. It's over before it registers in my mind that it's happening. Mark II describes what I see as well as anything I've ever heard or read.
I also have watched bullets in flight many, many times. I used to compete in IHMSA pistol competition. We shot at silhouettes up to 200 meters, and utilized a spotter who was watching through a spotting scope. The flight of a centerfire bullet could be clearly seen from about 50 meters all the way to impact, or miss, at 200 meters.
I'm not a serious clays shooter, but I can often see the shot cloud. I have 20/15 vision, but I don't think that is the key. You need to look through it, not try to focus on it. It is a dim shadow against the sky.
"Smoke" is an excellent description. A smoke cloud is a cluster of small particles, after all.
Yep. Years ago, a shooting buddy diagnosed me as shooting ahead of the birds on a skeet range, as he had seen the shot swarm. A 30 Y.O. USAF fighter pilot at the time, he had something like 20/10 vision when he had attended pilot training. He pointed out that he did it best on overcast days, preferably with fairly high humidity.
I shot formal 10 meter air pistol for many years and soon after getting into serious training I could see the flight of the pellet almost every time. Soon after I could see the flight of bullets from firearm pistols. I clearly recall seeing the red bullet bases of Geco 9mm's.
A few times I have seen slugs out of shotguns when sighting in. But I have never managed to catch sight of a shot cloud. I am wondering if the shot cloud could be seen in low velocity loads. If so, then the eye could be trained to see the shot cloud by starting with low velocity and building up to regular velocities. It is easier to see something if you know what you are looking for.
If we could train to see the shot cloud consistently that would be the end of many "expert" careers.
One doesn’t actually see the shot but a disturbance of some sort. You have to focus about 2/3 of the way to the clay and have a blue sky behind it and (for me) to have the right angle of light and not be facing anywhere towards the sun. Given the right conditions I can see more than half of the shot clouds.
I have seen the shot cloud many times and it sure wasn't a mirage. It appears as a dirty smudge for a second. I don't have ecceptional vision either, in fact it's poor. I see it standing behind the shooter on an overcast day. Pete
This reminds me of the first time I saw my BB in flight. After a while, it became common. Similar with skeet. When I was "on" the clay would seem to move in slow motion and even stop while the shot hit it. Not all the time, but a great feeling when it occurred.
Tom, interesting you mention the aspect of High Humidity. I would imagine that the shot may in some way squeeze moisture droplets from the air and make the effect more visual. Much in the way that if you crack a flag by waving it sharply and it condenses moisture droplets. You might be on to something there as to why it's more noticeable in certain conditions. Lagopus.....
Tom, interesting you mention the aspect of High Humidity. I would imagine that the shot may in some way squeeze moisture droplets from the air and make the effect more visual. Much in the way that if you crack a flag by waving it sharply and it condenses moisture droplets. You might be on to something there as to why it's more noticeable in certain conditions. Lagopus.....
Pretty much what I always figured. I never saw it myself, just passing on what a seriously skilled skeet shooter and field wing shot told me. I did slow my swing and broke a lot more birds that day. He’s no BSer, either. If he tells me he saw Santa Claus, I’m putting out milk and cookies.
A very interesting discussion. Years ago (35?) BASC used to train would be shooting instructors to see the shot swarm in flight , it can be best described as being like perncil graphite shading in the sky. Nowadays Instructor tuition seems to major on political correctness , health and safety , care in the community, and caring for environmental issues such as noise and lead pollution. It is how the times are changing , when I was a kid , a cut or graze was repaired by sucking it , licking it or rubbing it , nowadays it is off to A&E and quarantine.
When I started shooting trap at the VFW range in Kodiak Alaska we could see the shot strings rip through the moist air quite easy. Shoot in the rain or fog, not hard to see. Do it under the lights with moist air is even easier to see. You will still miss though......
I have seen a shot cloud a couple of times shooting skeet, but what I found even more interesting was when I saw trace AND vapor trail shooting LR rifles. When I told people that didn't shoot as much as me, many didn't believe it.
I see the shot cloud of others when the sun is slightly behind the shooter and I’m in the right position to the shooter. I’ve also seen copper jacketed pistol bullets under certain light conditions. They look like a little flash when they catch the light. Shot strings look like smudges.
At 6:30 almost to the end of this video there is a slow motion shot of the pellets with a white background. Similar to the visible shot cloud on the skeet field..only faster
I once had a Parker SC SBT with .045 choke. I let friends use it and could clearly see the pattern when standing behind the shooter, all the way to the break of the target.
Not much humidity in AZ except during the Monsoon season, and I think the shot cloud is more clear without the humidity haze.
No. The trap and skeet fields at Ben Avery are in a long line facing north, and last week I was shooting skeet at 8:00 with the sun pretty much due east, as in right in your eyes on Station 1 looking for the high house target Could clearly see the shot clouds of the other shooters, but as said, I never have seen mine.
In approximately 20 years of being able to distinguish the shot "cloud" I have never been able to determine that it mattered where the sun was in relation to the direction I was looking. When I'm shooting a round of clays my top priority is to be HOA on my squad. I'm not trying to see the shot of other shooters, I'm trying to break all my birds. But, they're my friends, and if I can help them I will. They do the same for me (I think 😃). When I see the shot of others, I see it. To be more accurate, I look harder if a squadmate misses a bird. It takes a bit of concentration on my part, but NO imagination.
Albert William Money, Arthur Corbin Gould, Pigeon Shooting: With instructions for beginners and suggestions for those who participate in the sport of pigeon shooting, 1896 http://books.google.com/books?id=qkEEAAAAYAAJ Do not, however, believe what everyone tells you. Many men who are not standing in a proper position to see, or are not carefully noting the direction of your gun and the bird at the moment, will say, “You shot over or under, behind or in front of that bird.” They are false prophets, and sometimes are wolves in sheep's clothing.
Could clearly see the shot clouds of the other shooters, but as said, I never have seen mine.