Anybody know this engraver?
French guns are tough enough much less identifying French engravers. But you might want to consult Geoffroy Gournet.
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
FAB500 will be along shortly. Might help to know a bit more about the gun.
It is possible that there was a school of engraving that promoted beaver-esq dogs, and Jurassic chicken like pheasants, same as the “Pumpkin school” of American engraving, but, if there really wasn’t, this guy engraved a million French guns, back in the day.
A good guess would be Bernaud, he was working as an engraver until well into his 90s, and his work suffered a bit, the older he got. I think he died in 1912. I had a Darne V20 that he engraved, and the pheasants were bad enough that I questioned what year they were introduced to France, as it didn’t seem like he had ever seen one.
Gamescene engraving is absolutely the toughest to pull off, and the guys that can do animals well, are few and far between. Not everyone can be Winston Churchill or Lynton McKensie.
Best,
Ted
I know not high end engraving but this little 16ga stands out for what it is. Never had one of these helice ( I know generic term)style guns before. I don’t need it but I wouldn’t want to have it built today$$. Ejectors would have made it more desired.
The further away the better it looks. LOL
It is signed in the bottom-left, but I can't make any more than it starts with an "A". As suggested above, Mr. Gournet may know it.
These are the sellers pics I couldn’t read the name. Something like A. Relayon, I’m guessing again.
I do so wish that Gournet would return and inject his expertise on French arms to the discussion .
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
I was just having a good look at this gun a week ago.
I have 10 16ga shotguns. This one would be great brush gun 6lbs 27” barrels, if not open hone the chokes. I’m trying to talk myself out of it, but having trouble. Ted is helping. I don’t think I would ever hunt it, over any of my others though.
Anyway this one is on guns international under French double guns, private seller in Iowa no relation to me.
Looks really nice for what it is.
Interesting engraving, but the grip shape looks like death eating a cracker. JMHO, of course.
Thanks guys I needed that, Ted and Stan reminded me of the bad “…the Spree and… #*t girl … have in common ” joke from my childhood. Gun does look fun though.
S.H. & Cie -----
>>.....1930 lorsque Simon HEURTIER fonda sa Soci�t� "S.H & Cie" suite au d�c�s de son fr�re.....<<
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=423448Serbus,
Raimey
rse
Another offering in that French category, anyone recognize the Trademark?
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
I did some rfesearch but I not find the name in this book: La gravure moderne de St- Etienne. Of course in this book are only the best engravers mention.
Marc.
I have 10 16ga shotguns. This one would be great brush gun 6lbs 27” barrels, if not open hone the chokes. I’m trying to talk myself out of it, but having trouble. Ted is helping. I don’t think I would ever hunt it, over any of my others though.
Anyway this one is on guns international under French double guns, private seller in Iowa no relation to me.
Looks really nice for what it is.
Can't find it on GI. As a long time Iowan, it's possible I might know the seller.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...de-by-side-boxlock-.cfm?gun_id=101799346....1930 - Simon HEURTIER founded Société "S.H & Cie".....
No idea on this mark.....
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
On a totally other French offering, & I was unsure if anyone was going to post it, but as it was told to me, quite a bit of history on the Buttplate:
Corporation Chrétienne des Armuriers Stéphanois Conservatoire de l'Arme fine L. Chalet Directeur 1887 -P. Didier - E. Fournel - B. Tronchon - M. Barellon -P. Plot - P. Ferret - F. Courbon Fondateur
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
Can't find it on GI. As a long time Iowan, it's possible I might know the seller.
Here you go Larry
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...de-by-side-boxlock-.cfm?gun_id=101799346I was looking at this one the other day. It kind of struck my fancy, but I just purchased a similar gun, so not really in my budget.
I wondered if that is the original stock?
The engraver, JT, is A Rousfon. He engraved my 12 gauge Charlin with about the same quality of art as your 16 gauge. I just know the name. Geoffroy did not give me any details on him when he imported the shotgun from France for me.
Best for the New Year, Tim
On a totally other French offering, & I was unsure if anyone was going to post it, but as it was told to me, quite a bit of history on the Buttplate:
Corporation Chrétienne des Armuriers Stéphanois Conservatoire de l'Arme fine L. Chalet Directeur 1887 -P. Didier - E. Fournel - B. Tronchon - M. Barellon -P. Plot - P. Ferret - F. Courbon Fondateur
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
Salut ellenbr
Mº Ferdinand Courbon, avocat au bareau de Saint-Etienne, , pour favoriser l'essor de l'arme de luxe créa une société en commandite sous le nom de Conservatoire de l'arme fine (Corporation chrétienne des armuriers stéphanols). Le directeur fut Louis Chalet, ancien fabricant d'armes qui eut comme principaux collaborateurs Joannes Faure, ciseleur; Pierre Didier (Didier-Drevet) canonnier; Pierre Ferret, graveur; Antoine Javelle, Incrusteur; Etienne Fournel, basculeur; Trochon, platineur; Barrelon, monteur, Pierre Plot, pistonneur et Fauriat, équipeur. Installée au printemps 1887 au 7 place Villeboeuf à Saint-Etienne, cette société a fabriqué de très beaux fusils .
It is possible that there was a school of engraving that promoted beaver-esq dogs, and Jurassic chicken like pheasants, same as the “Pumpkin school” of American engraving, but, if there really wasn’t, this guy engraved a million French guns, back in the day.
A good guess would be Bernaud, he was working as an engraver until well into his 90s, and his work suffered a bit, the older he got. I think he died in 1912. I had a Darne V20 that he engraved, and the pheasants were bad enough that I questioned what year they were introduced to France, as it didn’t seem like he had ever seen one.
Gamescene engraving is absolutely the toughest to pull off, and the guys that can do animals well, are few and far between. Not everyone can be Winston Churchill or Lynton McKensie.
Best,
Ted
Salut Ted,
Jean Bernaud a beaucoup gravé pour la maison Darne entre 1930 et 1960.
Parlez-vous de son père ?
Serait-il possible de voir des photos pour ce V20 ?
The engraver, JT, is A Rousfon. He engraved my 12 gauge Charlin with about the same quality of art as your 16 gauge. I just know the name. Geoffroy did not give me any details on him when he imported the shotgun from France for me.
Best for the New Year, Tim
On retrouve régulièrement cette signature A. Rousefon. Il paraît même qu'il aurait un jumeau qui était lui aussi graveur, mais je ne trouve rien sur ces personnes.
J'émets l'idée qu'il pourrait s'agir d'Antoine Rousson, bien connu pour ses gravures animalières. Mais ce n'est qu'une hypothèse !
De rien Argo, c'est un plaisir.
Joannes Faure, ciseleur - Chiseler - Stocker?
Pierre Didier (Didier-Drevet) canonnier - Tube Maker
Pierre Ferret, graveur; Engraver
Antoine Javelle, Incrusteur - Metal Inlay adornment?
Etienne Fournel, basculeur - Frame filer / maker
Trochon, platineur - Lock maker
Barrelon, monteur - fitter of tubeset & frame?
Pierre Plot, pistonneur - ???
Fauriat, équipeur - fitter of some sort?
Serbus,
Raimey
rse
Thanks Tim I do like the engraving style its growing on me, but I didn’t purchase this gun. If it were an ejector gun I couldn’t have stopped myself. I have a couple Belgium short barreled guns that fit the bill already. Great discussion in both languages.
Thank you all
Merci à tous
Salut, Fab 500,
The only pictures I have of the V20 are slides. Larry Brown published an article that my V20 was photographed for, if he retained the proofs, he may have a picture.
I haven’t owned the gun for many years. It is a V20 2 barrels set, that was restocked in American black walnut, a fantastic job, according to Herve’ Bruchet. The serial number was in the 50,000 range.
Merci’.
Ted
Thanks. Don't recognize the seller's name. Dave, I agree that the stock does look pretty fancy for that gun. However, that round knob grip pretty much screams "FRENCH!"
Salut, Fab 500,
The only pictures I have of the V20 are slides. Larry Brown published an article that my V20 was photographed for, if he retained the proofs, he may have a picture.
I haven’t owned the gun for many years. It is a V20 2 barrels set, that was restocked in American black walnut, a fantastic job, according to Herve’ Bruchet. The serial number was in the 50,000 range.
Merci’.
Ted
Ted, was the article in Double Gun Journal or Shooting Sportsman? Good chance I have the magazine in my files.
Larry,
Shooting Sportsman. The article was on French guns.
Best,
Ted
Thanks. I can't find it in my computer files, but I probably have that SSM issue stashed somewhere. I'll take a look.
Salut Ted,
Sur ce lien, il y a un très beau V20 :
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...urs-grade-sliding-breech-game-gun-35855/D'après les marquages, je situerais sa fabrication entre 1910 et 1913.
Les canons à l'état fini ont subi la triple épreuve 4 palmes antérieure à 1924, qui se composait de 30 grammes de poudre noire et 180 grammes de plomb, et qui développait une pression de plus ou moins 2000 kg / cm2
Tout collectionneur français qui aime les Darne aimerait avoir un tel fusil qui est assez rare même en France.
Alors, Fab, the Morphy text at the beginning writes that the gun has 2-3/4 inch chambers but later notes the chambers are 65 mm which is what the proof mark reads. Possibly chambers lengthened in USA...
Best for the New Year,
Tim
Merci Fab. For the Murphey Darne....
-- Chambers are marked in cm. i.e: It was made between 1889 and summer 1912.
-- It is proofed for PT so it was made after 1900.
-- The SN 14696 indicates it were made 1903-4?
(I once had estimated the yearly output of Darne from 1 to 50,000 in 1910 but can't find it):
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199&page=10Ted has warned of inconsistencies in Geoffroy Gournet's serial number and date list for Darne guns:
On the above line, there are two Darnes pictured with SN's that may be very close to what the chart claims:
-- Per dated Didier-Drevet barrels the changeover from cm to mm occurred in summer 1912;
-- The two "C" series Darne numbers below - one with cm, one with mm - were probably made around 1912 if Darne made 2,600 guns from 1910 to 1912.
-- C692, a 12 gauge with a chamber stamp "6.5".
-- C643, a 20 gauge with a chamber stamp "70".
C692
C643
That Morphy Darne is a real beauty!
Larry,
Shooting Sportsman. The article was on French guns.
Best,
Ted
Found it. July/Aug 02. Do you have a copy of the magazine, Ted? Somebody did some nice gun photography.
Larry,
Me. Me and my little Canon TX. Vic Venters asked for a few Darne photos. I think he even paid for them.
I don’t have the magazine. The pictures I have of that V20 are slides, as that was mostly what I shot back then.
For what it is worth, the Morphy gun blows my former V20 away. The Morphy gun also is the older V patent, but, the pad really sucks.
Gene, I have been told the list is pretty dang close for guns sold in Europe. The problems arise on exported guns. There was no incentive to keep track of guns they never expected to see again.
Best,
Ted
Bonjour Fab
J'ai vu très peu d'armes à feu qui ont passé l'ancienne Français d'avant 1924 triple preuve. Le fusil Morphy est un bel exemple, et très rare aux États-Unis aussi. Magnifique! Nous avons ici des armuriers qui croient qu'un Darne est un fusil de mauvaise qualité. Ne leur prêtez aucune attention.
De plus, Lonny est un idiot.
Meilleurs regards,
Ted
_____________________________________________________
Prouvez-moi que j’ai tort.
Larry,
Shooting Sportsman. The article was on French guns.
Best,
Ted
Found it. July/Aug 02. Do you have a copy of the magazine, Ted? Somebody did some nice gun photography.
Salut Argo,
J'espère que tu as passé de bonnes vacances au soleil.
Je te souhaite une bonne année, ainsi qu'à tous les membres du forum.
La première chose importante : il est impossible de dater précisément un Darne par rapport à son numéro de série.
Voici une photo d'un canon Darne..
Sur cette photo, on voit que les canons sont montés par frettage, qui est un brevet déposé en 1902 par Darne.
Les étoiles qui désignent le modèle (V19) seront remplacées en 1906 / 1907 par des pastilles que tout le monde connait.
La mention "médaille d'or" sera aussi remplacée dans la même période par celle "hors concours".
Je n'ai pas mis une photo de la monture, mais celle-ci est à long bois. A partir de 1906, elle sera en 2 parties.
Par rapport à ces éléments, j'estime la fabrication de ce fusil entre 1902 et 1906.
Fab 500,
Wonderful information.
Best,
Ted
Fabrication postérieure à 1960 ; il me semble voir un S et un P devant C643.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274238&page=1Super Idéal 6REE tir aux pigeons de 1921.
Sur cette arme, le chambrage est en cm. Il semblerait que la Manu ait utilisé les cm bien après 1912.
Friend of mine bought the original 16 gauge in this thread. They should get it sometime next week.
Merci Fab...et en particulier pour l'analyse de C643. ma conclusion que le changement de CM a MM survenu en 1912 était basé sur les canons daté de Didier Drevet. c'est le seul daté piece de rechange pour les fusils de Saint-Etienne que j'ai trouvé.
Mais voici la question. Nous essayons de dater un fait historique par l'analyse. Il y a sûrement des enregistrements à Saint Etienne sur le moment où cela s'est produit. La famille de ma femme nous vient de Saint Chamond. Je pourrais leur demander d'enquêter. Mais pour un spécialiste français des armes à feu... cela semble être un sujet de recherche important.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Hopefully this will get the French shotgun community energized:
"Thanks Fab..and in particular for the analysis of C643. My conclusion that the changeover from cm to mm took place in 1912 was based on dated barrels by Didier Drevet. These are the only dated Saint-Etienne gun parts that I've found
But here is the question. We have tried to date a historical fact by analysis. There is surely information in Saint-Etienne on the date when this occurred. My wife's family is from Saint Chamond. I could ask them to investigate. But for a specialist in French fire-arms..this would seem to be an important subject of research."
Salut Argo,
Habitant loin de Saint-Etienne, il ne m'est pas possible de m'y rendre pour y faire des recherches.
Je viens d'envoyer un mail au Banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne pour leur demander s'ils pouvaient me communiquer des renseignements, et éventuellement m'indiquer où je pourrais les trouver. En espérant qu'ils seront disponibles pour m'apporter une réponse.
Formidable! J'avais l'intention de visiter Saint-Etienne le prochain fois nous étions dans la region de Saint-Chamond...mais avec covid c'est difficile. J'espère que vous recevrez de bonnes nouvelles. Je n'ai pas eu beaucoup de succès avec les archives de Paris. La date de basculement 'est une date historique pour les fusils de chasse de Saint-Etienne et je suis sûr que Passionlachasse serait également intéressée.
Formidable! J'avais l'intention de visiter Saint-Etienne le prochain fois nous étions dans la region de Saint-Chamond...mais avec covid c'est difficile. J'espère que vous recevrez de bonnes nouvelles. Je n'ai pas eu beaucoup de succès avec les archives de Paris. La date de basculement 'est une date historique pour les fusils de chasse de Saint-Etienne et je suis sûr que Passionlachasse serait également intéressée.
No ill feelings to our friend Argo44, but I'd just like to point out that I am sure I am not the only unilingual English speaker on the board. When a non-English speaker makes a post that is unintelligible to me but understood by Mr. Argo or one of the other posters and who can read the post displays his or her ability to speak a foreign language it is also meaningless to me.
It would be a kindness if a member here who can understand that foreign gibberish would take a moment and translate the foreign language post and then post his doubtlessly knowledgeable post in English as well a in French, Spanish, German etc. so the foreign poster can also read the reply, just in case the other poster can read English no better than I can read French.
Just a thought...Geo
Pardon George....Here's the translation:
FAB:
Living far from Saint-Etienne, it not possible for me to go there to do research.
I just sent a letter to the Saint-Etienne proof-house asking them if they could send me some information and eventually let me know where I could find it. Hoping they will be accomodating and send a response.
Argo:
Great! I intended to visit Saint-Etienne the next tie we were in the region of Saint-Chamond...but it's difficult with Covid. I hope that you receive some good news. I have not had much siuccess with the Paris Archives. The date of the changeover is a historical date for Saint-Etienne shotguns and I'm sure that Passionlachasse.Fr would also be interested.
Argo,
I’m not a researcher, but, spent time at the proof house in St Etienne, and public libraries in Lyon and St. Etienne. My research was haphazard and rushed, and the focus was pretty much on Regis Darne and his company. He is considered a bit of a hero in that part of the world.
I found it tough sledding, getting details on anything pre WWI. Not much easier between the wars.
Best luck. Some details change as time goes on and more minds become involved.
Best,
Ted
Fab 500,
Je ne suis pas chercheur, mais j'ai passé du temps à la maison des épreuves à St Etienne, et dans les bibliothèques publiques de Lyon et de St. Etienne. Mes recherches ont été aléatoires et précipitées, et l'accent a été mis sur Regis Darne et son entreprise. Il est considéré comme un peu un héros dans cette partie du monde. J'ai trouvé difficile de faire de la luge, d'obtenir des détails sur tout ce qui était avant la Première Guerre mondiale. Pas beaucoup plus facile entre les guerres. Bonne chance. Certains détails changent au fil du temps et de plus en plus d'esprits s'impliquent.
Ted
Larry,
Me. Me and my little Canon TX. Vic Venters asked for a few Darne photos. I think he even paid for them.
I don’t have the magazine. The pictures I have of that V20 are slides, as that was mostly what I shot back then.
For what it is worth, the Morphy gun blows my former V20 away. The Morphy gun also is the older V patent, but, the pad really sucks.
Gene, I have been told the list is pretty dang close for guns sold in Europe. The problems arise on exported guns. There was no incentive to keep track of guns they never expected to see again.
Best,
Ted
Ted: I sold bunches of photos (slides back in those days, because that's what magazines wanted back then) with a little pocket 35MM. Paid for itself many times over.
I see more a few things I'd change in that article these days, having learned more about French guns in the interim. Much of that knowledge acquired right here, on this board.
I’ve always considered myself a student of the Darne gun, Larry. A company that was around for much more than a hundred years wil have many stories to tell.
Best,
Ted