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Posted By: AGS Couple of Questions - 02/03/22 08:19 PM
I just purchased a used gun from a Gunbroker listing, and had a couple of questions.

The gun is a Watkins double made in Banbury, between London and Oxford. I have searched extensively and there is little info available for the maker. I found a helpful writeup about pinfires on this board about the founding of the company, which goes back to an early date and started under this name with a T J Watkins. I have found scattered pinfires and single barrel large bore fowling pieces listed on auctions which sold well but only one listing ever for a hammerless double. The one I bought is marked simply "Watkins" on the action sides and "Watkins Banbury" on the rib. The proof marks would indicate a date between 1875 and 1896. It is a boxlock, very well grained wood, 30" 12 gauge, 1-1/2" DAC, 2-1/4" DAH, 2-1/2" chambers, 14-3/8" LOP, and a total weight of 6# 4 oz. Buttplate is Buffalo horn just staring to show a little chipping. Engraving is floral, decent coverage , is sharp and crisp. Barrels are 3 crolle Damascus that have gone brown but still show the pattern well. The left barrel is marked 14 over 1 and has a a bore of .700, as is the choke. The right barrel is marked 13 over 1 with a .722 bore with .700 choke. I believe these are original since the right barrel is marked CHOKE and the left is unmarked and would be correct for that period and configuration. The bores are smooth and shining. I suspect it has been polished at some point but not honed. The wall thickness in both barrels is .035-.04 behind the chokes, .05 in the fore end area,and .14 in front of the chambers. The action closes very easily and snaps shut almost by itself, much like an LC Smith.
Overall, the gun looks in excellent condition with good wood fit and finish, quite a bit of case color left (completely intact under the forearm), and good barrel finish with no corrosion, wear or dents. Unless the stock has been given a fresh oil rub, I believe it is original and about as "like new" as you will see in a gun 125 years old.

The odd thing was that the listing made you strongly suspect that the barrels were bad. It was listed as a 12/28 gauge because it came with a set of 28 gauge inserts, which sounded like they were permanent, and the weight was listed at 7-1/2#. There were a lot of bids, but they were low. The gun just looked too clean and in too good a shape to have horrible barrels, so I bid and got the gun at barely over $700. When it arrived, I tried knocking the tubes out and they popped right out. You can't believe my joy at seeing the shiny bores, or my next reaction when I saw the tubes were a new looking set of $695 Briley 28 gauge companion tubes. Barrel measurements sealed the deal.

The question I have is does anyone have information on the later Watkins company? I have to assume it might have been the son of T J. I found only one listing on a UK gunlist. It was exactly the same model as this gun, as near as I can tell, but was in nowhere near the condition of this gun. It was listed at about $1200 US. Is this a known maker, what is the reputation and what is their percieved quality? I have a 16 gauge Parker DH on an O frame that weighs exactly the same and to me seems identical to the Watkins in handling feel. I can't imagine it won't make an excellent game gun.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Couple of Questions - 02/03/22 09:00 PM
It looks like a interesting find. Have you measured the barrel walls thickness. That is the real issue with any double. Are they too thin or still thick enough to shoot? Anything under .020, within the first 20" are thinner than what I shoot. Also I would check the chamber length very carefully. If they are now 2 3/4" instead of 2 1/2" they may be too thin in the chamber area to shoot safely with anything other than the tubes. Sometimes when they fit tubes they lengthen the chambers to gain enough metal for the tube chamber area.

As to the maker, I suspect it is more a finisher or even a retailer than a maker who made the gun from scratch. Perhaps it was brought in in the white. Many, if not most boxlocks, seem to have been built by the trade and had the retailer/maker name added to the side and ribs. If it has a Birmingham proofs, instead of London proofs I would expect that it was made in Birmingham for the trade. They made a lot for the trade as they say.

[Linked Image from p1.gunbroker.com]
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Couple of Questions - 02/03/22 11:53 PM
Congratulations on a great buy, AGS. You did well.
Posted By: Dan S. W. Re: Couple of Questions - 02/03/22 11:58 PM
Sounds like a nice gun at a very good price.

Those bores are tight for a 12 - I had one that had a barrel at .719 that a plastic wad got stuck in that could have easily blown the barrel if the guide didn't say that load sounded weird. Maybe that is why someone was shooting 28 gauge tubes?

I have never shot anything but plastic wad factory loads, but maybe a fiber wad would be better suited to those bores?
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 12:27 AM
"The wall thickness in both barrels is .035-.04 behind the chokes, .05 in the fore end area, and .14 in front of the chambers."
Those are very reassuring, if not generous, numbers for a light weight British Game gun.

Jon: did you mean to say "Anything under .020", within the first 20" are thinner than what I shoot."?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 01:46 AM
That is a pretty little gun. I just checked (again) RST doesn’t have any short ammunition for you, just yet.

You are not the first who has noticed that an English 2 1/2” 12 gauge is typically par with an American 16 gauge. Some of the English guys who post here will likely have more information on that name for you.

At the moment, I don’t have any “thin” wall shotguns. I’m too much of an oaf for those guns.

Just measured the wall thickness on a Halifax, 9” from the breech, they are .056”. Gun weighs about 6 lbs. A V19 20 gauge was .050 at the same point, it weighs 5 3/4 lbs. So, maybe they could be dented, but, I’d likely hurt myself in the process.

Use it in good health. Prices on guns like that in England are almost free.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: AGS Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 02:44 AM
The measurements I gave were actually pretty conservative. They are much thicker than a couple of early graded Parkers I own. The numbers are very close to a prewar LC Smith 20 gauge I just purchased. I was surprised the gun weighed as little as they did with those numbers. I load 7/8oz 2-1/2" loads at 5500psi for my Parker Damascus guns and this should be totally good with them. I may try some nitro wads (which I keep) in it.

The thing I like about the gun is the wood quality, the balance and the handling. The gun was very muzzle heavy with the tubes but really dynamic alone, even with the 30" barrels. Of course the best thing is, that with the almost new Briley tubes, the gun was very nearly free.

Two weeks ago, I saw a listing that no one bid on for an LC Smith field grade 16 gauge with a detailed writeup. I instantly realized from the pictures that it was a 20 gauge NID field grade (1935 variation) in really nice shape except for the aftermarket recoil pad and some oversprayed varnish which I have removed. The owner confirmed it was an Ithaca but told me he didn't know the gauge (he was an FFL). He never corrected the listing and I bought it for the really low opening bid. Totally original except for the pad and overspray and a lot of good condition for a small bore NID. I was happy about that one too.
Posted By: m-4 Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 03:08 AM
He is listed Heer Der Neue Stockel.....Watkins TJ Branbury Oxon/GB erw 1862-69 75 High Str
Posted By: AGS Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 03:20 AM
Here are a few pictures:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3qli25b84audhcu/W2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/28ewn0ipdc34gpg/W3.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ms185pev3izmz3i/W4.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1s4vd3tny2c89dk/W6.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m2ckbj4lc6lgvw2/W9.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bvqwvv0daeqmdz2/W10.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rae0tmamx6nee98/W11.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu9fyq6vv2vaf3j/W12.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/72op2zfldwda0vw/WBriley.jpg?dl=0
Posted By: greener4me Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 09:13 AM
Looks rather like a 14Gauge gun.
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 01:46 PM
Great find at that price, and even more interesting as a 14ga. If chambers are opened up to 12ga dimensions sounds like you can load up whatever you want since you reload. I shoot a modern 12 with .715 bores I like using tapered hull wads in that one, seems to recoil less than with euro (jumbo size) wads.
Posted By: Parabola Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 02:16 PM
The 12 C in a diamond shows that it was Proofed (for Black Powder) for 12 bore cartridges rather than as a 14 bore gun.

The 13/1 and 14/1 markings are the bore sizes at 9 Inches from the breech.

It appears to be in exceptional and untouched condition for it’s age, but I would still seek the opinion of any experienced gunsmith before using it.
Posted By: RARiddell Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 03:35 PM
You got lucky! Sometimes things don’t pan out! A 7 1/2lb 28ga probably put everyone off. But now you got a lightweight British 12! I would have those cones double checked, does Briley make tubes for 2 1/2 chambers?
Posted By: AGS Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by RARiddell
You got lucky! Sometimes things don’t pan out! A 7 1/2lb 28ga probably put everyone off. But now you got a lightweight British 12! I would have those cones double checked, does Briley make tubes for 2 1/2 chambers?
Apparently they do. They were installed when I recieved the gun, but I checked them with a Brownells 12 ga chamber gauge and they are exactly 2-1/2 inches, so haven't been lengthened. Wall thickness is more than adequate through the forcing cone and beyond. I've done all my own gunsmithing work for 30 years, have a complete machine shop and all the measuring tools needed for shotguns and rifles, so I have completely checked out the barrels, including a good bore scoping.
Posted By: rjack Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 06:39 PM
Has the appearance of
Jeffery trade made
Posted By: mc Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 08:48 PM
Jeffery didn't make guns. leonard made some for jeffery
Posted By: Carl46 Re: Couple of Questions - 02/04/22 10:19 PM
I have made some very advantageous purchases on GB, buying incorrectly listed items, but I never got a free English double. Congratulations.
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