Hi all, I am doing some research for a friend of mine who has just recently picked up a beautiful H and H double rifle manufactured in 1907.
It is a royal deluxe in 375 flanged, single trigger.
It was originally scoped from the factory, unfortunately over the years the scope and rings has disappeared, now we are trying to get some information.

Can anyone help identify what type of set up these bases are intended for...?

What type of rings would have accompanied them...?

and perhaps what type of scope would have been used in 1907 for this grade of firearm.....?

Thank you in advance for your help.

[img][img]https://i.ibb.co/80n5YRq/greg-s-h-and-h-scope-bases-pic.jpg[/img][/img]

That is the early version of Holland's proprietary scope mount system, they rings and bases both manufactured by H&H. The scope would have been a Skopar Voitlander. I built the bases for this rifle to fit the H&H rings.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/xcSbnwRl.jpg?1[/img]

You will need rings built to match those bases, a very costly endeavor. Try Lee as he will be your best bet.

http://learmsllc.com/claw-mounts-scope-mounts-and-swing-mounts/

Call J. J. Peradeau in Oklahoma on Monday, be prepared to send him pics of the bases on the rifle....... "Scoped from the factory" seems a bit of a long reach to me, for a 1907 gun.....Might have been returned to H&H for mounts at a later date , or could have been scoped with a variety of mounts by numerous makers, a lot of them German in origin.

I'm 100% sure those are H&H mounts, I have seen many examples of them, this is the first version having the two posts on the forward base.

Many British makers were using scopes well before 1907, see the many Fraser rifles scoped in the late 1800's.

The scopes themselves were almost always German in origin.

Tigertrout;

Is your friends Holland still chambered for the H&H .375 flanged 2 1/2 inch cartridge or has it been re-proofed and re-chambered for the H&H .375 flanged magnum cartridge?

tigertrout and skb, here are the pictures
Mike

Big money for a scope and rings

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185205804137?hash=item2b1f204c69:g:h3MAAOSwkX9hDwfm
COPY AND PASTE ABOVE LINK

To mel5141, The factory records show that it was scoped at the factory and sighted in with the scope, so not a stretch.
bushveld, the rifle went back and was re-chambered to flanged magnum and re-proofed.

I wish I could see how they mate the bases and rings........

Holland and Holland has quoted a tremendous amount of money to make new rings.

Tigertrout: Try Le LeBass, he will be costly but nothing like H&H.

Skeetex: Thanks for fixing my link. Mine is an H&H marked scope which I traded for. The above linked Skopar is over priced, they can be had for much less.

Tigertrout;

I suspected that your friends lovely H&H DR was re-chambered as many of the original H&H .375 Flanged Nitro Express 2 1/2" rifles were after the H&H .375 Flanged Magnum was introduced about 1912.

I assume that your reference above to the records of H&H showing the DR being scoped at factory was the original 1907 configuration as a .375 2 1/2" Flg. NE.

After it was re-chambered and re-proofed to H&H .375 Flg.Mag, do the H&H records show that it was then re-regulated to group shots with the scope mounted upon the barrels? If not, and in my experience in building and regulating DR barrels of .375 range calibers if your friend mounts a scope on the barrels he needs to expect to have the barrels regulated (de-soldered, new Holland type front barrel brace made[if it has the H&H type] to spread or converge the barrels, re-soldered and re-blacked), Further even if the DR was re-regulated at Holland's after re-chambering/re-proofing with a scope mounted. and your friend now attaches another scope and rings the scope/rings are unlikely to have the weight and mass distribution of the previous scope/rings to where the barrels will now group.

If you are not familiar with regulating DR barrels here is a link for you: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-barrel-regulator

The significant difference between the H&H double rifle regulation and the description of the process from this "vintageguns.co" link is that after the completion of the regulating at the range, the DR goes back to the workshop to have a new front barrel brace machined/made via a milling machine to the exact distance in thousands of an inch between the front barrels and the exact diameter of the front barrels made and then fitted/soldered to the barrels---this brace incorporates the front sight ramp.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Delighted to know the facts, even at this age , I learn something everyday.

SKB:

Most interesting info on the Germans being the early source for glass.


bushveld:

Great info too and in the rechamber effort, if indeed the case, why did they not replace the front sight then or was the glass the stop-gap solution and they assumed that the sights would be a non-factor from that point on out?

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Bushveld, my friend informs me that the rifle was indeed regulated after the factory re chamber, (good news for the rifle), and has targets from the previous owner showing tight groups at different distances. It must have been an expensive bit of work, especially if it was done at Holland. I am very familiar with barrel regulation but thank you for the link.

Does anyone have a picture of what the rings should look like, I appreciate the side view but I cannot tell what they actually look like for fitting purposes.

Raimey;

It is almost certain that Holland would have had to make a new front barrel brace when they re-regulated this double rife to the .375 Flgd Mag as one would expect the barrels to need to be spread apart for proper grouping. I must qualify what I writing here as I am assuming that this subject DR was built back then with the muzzle brace that Holland still uses today. I use the Holland brace it in building double rifles as it never allows the barrels to come apart, however it takes many more hours to build and regulate the barrels and most double rifle makers do not use it. In regard to your interest in German rifle, I suspect that Hartmann & Weiss use the Holland style muzzle brace. There is an excellent one hour long video (now 15 years old) titled "A Look Inside Holland & Holland" which shows in detail Steve Cranson (now retired) regulating a double rifle and how he de-solders, moves the barrels and re-solders using the Holland muzzle brace.

I see that you have your e-mail address listed in your profile and I will send you some photos of how the Holland brace is made and looks both during regulation and final.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Tigertrout;

The photo that you desire is on page 212 of book " Holland & Holland the Royal Gunmaker" by Donald Dallas. If you do not have this book, you can PM me with your email address and I will scan the page and send the page/photo to you.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Thanks for the info and as typical, never disappointed for the info from the fount of knowledge here. Sure, feel free to send me any & all info.

I have a general guess of just how many DRs flow from Austria every year, and I assume that is typical for other gun-making centres, so has the DR been relegated to history?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Recommendation: take an aspirin and let this pass. Iron sights are right for this double rifle.
JR

Bushveld

pm sent thx again......

The rings pictured on p.212 of the Dallas book are the second design, just like mine. The rear base on your rifle mates to the cam lever on the rings. I am not exactly sure how the front two posts work on this earlier design. I can send you pictures of mine but they will not be much help I'm afraid.

JR: That would depend upon your desires for the rifle. The .375 flanged magnum is a very capable rifle for plains game at a distance and many older hunters just cannot utilize the cartridge to its full potential with iron sights. I love iron sights and shoot them much more than most hunters but I struggle with them way more than I did 10 years ago. I'm afraid at some point I will have to be shooting mostly scoped rifles. This particular gun has been re-chambered moving more into shooter category than collector. I see no reason not to add optics to it if that is what the owner would like. It certainly will not hurt the value of the gun and may very well bring added enjoyment to the current owner. It may not be a wise endeavor financially but that is not my call.

Tigertrout;

I just sent it at 2:45pm today.

Stephen Howell

All valid points, Steve. But you can bet you will have to take your cheek off the comb to see through a scope, which is not conducive to accurate or comfortable shooting. A modern scope on this old double rifle is going to look like whitewalls on a Rolls Royce. Jmo, but a double rifle with a scope on it is an oddity.
JR

A double rifle is an oddity......


Best,
Ted

It becomes about more than looks at some point. Any rifle that wears irons and a scope is a compromise, physics being what it is.

Well you could just buy a scoped bolt gun and be done with it:



https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ann-hands-416-rigby.cfm?gun_id=101802329

At this junction, it is really about completing the original package, if the rifle was made at factory and sighted in at factory with a scope.......them it deserves a proper period scope.
Whether it gets shot with iron sights or with the scope or never shot at all is really not the point of the exercise. IMHO.

My reprint of a 1900’s Holland and Holland catalogue seems to have gone into hiding, so here is the same illustration from Wal Winfer’s book.

Your rifle differs in having the locking catch recess on the rear base, but the principle is the same. You put the scope on by sliding it backwards on to the dovetails until it meets the stops, and then the swing over lever rolls the catch in to the groove on the base to stop it moving forward on recoil.

If you can find a suitable Voightlander Skopar sight and are having mounts machined to fit the bases, why not at the same time have a second set made in which you can mount a straight tube 1 to 5 or thereabouts good quality modern scope mounted as low as you can without fouling the top lever, doing away with the peep holes for the open sights.

That would minimise differences in cheek weld. If the rifle was ordered for a scope to be fitted, Holland’s stocker probably incorporated some degree of compromise in the comb height.