doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: Newton 1131 Devalued double - 03/13/22 10:29 AM
Hello All,
I’ve recently received back a set of Westley Richards 12 bore damascus barrels that I had sent out for some work on the lug. The work preformed was done well enough however they were recklessly packaged for shipping and the muzzles ended up with some deep gouges, dents, and scratches by making contact with another part in the package. The damage is enough that to remove all of it the muzzles would need to be taken back enough that half of the front bead would go with it. Also, a good amount of wall thickness would be lost by erasing some deep scratches.
I’ve done some research on how to go about a proper repair and lesser alternative methods. One option was micro welding another delt with setting the front bead back, but that also got into rib and solder work as the bead is a part of the top rib. I decided for now to take the muzzels back to the bead and some stoning on the side scratches. This helped remove a lot of damage but it’s still very noticeable considering these barrels are in excellent original condition otherwise.
So my question here is, what estimated percentage of dollar value to the gun is lost with said damage? Just going to make up numbers here but if it was a 1000.00 dollar gun before damage, does it lose 20% value making it an 800.00 gun now? Or 25% or……..
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Devalued double - 03/13/22 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Newton 1131
So my question here is, what estimated percentage of dollar value to the gun is lost with said damage? Just going to make up numbers here but if it was a 1000.00 dollar gun before damage, does it lose 20% value making it an 800.00 gun now? Or 25% or……..

The barrels make the gun....I'd say your likely at an 80% loss in value.
Posted By: Dan S. W. Re: Devalued double - 03/13/22 01:36 PM
I would suggest posting pictures and letting some of the gunsmiths who post on here evaluate the damage.

I had a little bit of damage to the exterior of the barrel at the breach end on a BLNE I owned and was contemplating having it welded up. The cost of the repairs (welding and rebrowning) exceeded the value of the gun and folks on here told me not to bother with it, rightly in retrospect. I later sold that gun for $900. I would imagine based on your description that your situation is similar i.e. it is not worth the cost of repairing unless it has some other value to you.

Here is a pic:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: canvasback Re: Devalued double - 03/13/22 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by HomelessjOe
Originally Posted by Newton 1131
So my question here is, what estimated percentage of dollar value to the gun is lost with said damage? Just going to make up numbers here but if it was a 1000.00 dollar gun before damage, does it lose 20% value making it an 800.00 gun now? Or 25% or……..

The barrels make the gun....I'd say your likely at an 80% loss in value.

I rarely agree with jOe on anything. But IMHO he's on the money with this. The barrels ARE the gun.
Posted By: GLS Re: Devalued double - 03/13/22 04:02 PM
Unless it was returned in the same packing that you mailed it the 'smith, I believe the gun should be "bought" at the pre-damage appraisal by the person who packed it and let them worry about selling it. James, how can we forget your receipt of a damaged gun mailed loose in a box swithout packing material mailded from Europe to Canada. Conversely, Stan bought an Aussie gun packed the same way and received it undamaged. Gil
Posted By: canvasback Re: Devalued double - 03/13/22 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by GLS
Unless it was returned in the same packing that you mailed it the 'smith, I believe the gun should be "bought" at the pre-damage appraisal by the person who packed it and let them worry about selling it. James, how can we forget your receipt of a damaged gun mailed loose in a box swithout packing material mailded from Europe to Canada. Conversely, Stan bought an Aussie gun packed the same way and received it undamaged. Gil


Every time we ship something we incur risk. Can't be helped, only mitigated.
Posted By: Newton 1131 Re: Devalued double - 03/13/22 11:19 PM
Thanks for the reply’s from all,
I’ve heard the old saying, “When you buy a double shotgun you’re really only buying the barrels”. I agree that the cost of repair would exceed value as in the case stated by Dan S.W.’s post, and I really don’t want to risk another shipping issue (as noted by Canvasback) from another contractor. I’ll have to live with the damage.
The lug work was actually only a small amount of touch-up engraving, so I’m really taken back that a professional of such trade could treat a clients property in that manner. The good news is that this professional is associated with an organization that touts a long chapter to a Code of Ethics, so reimbursement should not be a problem.
80 % devalue from the information given in my previous post is noted. I’ll have to see about posting a damage photo for further evaluation as my photo host is full and won’t let me copy link.
Posted By: Newton 1131 Re: Devalued double - 03/14/22 11:09 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9luwoa0tzjksr6/2022-02-28%2018.25.31.heic?dl=0
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Devalued double - 03/14/22 11:34 PM
Here you go. Was a chunk of the keel, top rib, front sight knocked off?

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
Posted By: eeb Re: Devalued double - 03/14/22 11:46 PM
Sorry your barrels were damaged, but I wouldn’t fret that. Get them refinished
Posted By: John Roberts Re: Devalued double - 03/15/22 12:27 AM
Have them cut enough (1/4"?) and have a new bead installed. Sh*t happens and you deal with it...
JR
Posted By: Newton 1131 Re: Devalued double - 03/15/22 02:40 AM
Drew,
Thank you for reposting my link as a photo. I can’t say that any part is knocked off or missing. What you see in the photo to the left side of the sight is an impression left from the rear of the casehardened receiver smacking into it. Same thing happened between 10 & 12o’clock. Notice that area is a bit “mushroomed and appears to have heavier wall thickness. The nasty one at 6’oclock is a gouge, that’s metal gone not displaced.

ebb, thanks for your post, I’m not going to fret it, I’m thankful that the damage went to the muzzles and not the breach’s. Still the fact remains that my 30” barrels are now reduced to 29 7/8”, wall thicknesses are thinner and there is still noticeable damage. All because of professional laziness in packaging. I’d say someone owes me a few bucks. My intent here is to get a fair and reasonable assessment of damage by information provided from me to this panel.
Posted By: Newton 1131 Re: Devalued double - 03/15/22 03:22 AM
John,
The front bead also serves to cap off the void between the barrels and top rib. It is a wedge shaped piece of brass or silver alloy soldered in place for that purpose and the bead or sight is integral to it. My photo isn’t clear to that and I appoligize. The bottom rib is the same idea but instead it’s all steel one piece. So, by cutting the sight off means I would have to shorten the top rib to accommodate a new one.
This is why I stated earlier that I had already researched options and decided to remove as much damage as possible by shortening muzzles to the bead and stoning out most side scratches, then live with the rest.
I’m not looking for a how to fix it here, I would have posted in DIY section. Im looking to find a fair and reasonable assessment or damage.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: Devalued double - 03/15/22 08:22 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Newton. Best of luck with this.
JR
Posted By: keith Re: Devalued double - 03/16/22 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by Newton 1131
My intent here is to get a fair and reasonable assessment of damage by information provided from me to this panel.

Since you don't wish to have any suggestions on how to repair or mitigate the damage to your shotgun muzzles. I won't offer any at this time. But I seriously doubt whether the responsible party will give a damn about any damage estimates or loss in valuation opinions provided by anyone here... no matter how accurate it may be.

Considering past history in tragic circumstances such as this, I think you will have your work cut out for you when it comes to recovering money for your loss. If you had shipping insurance, the insurance company will only be interested in a damage estimate from a qualified gunsmith, and they may contest that too. Your engraver is likely to blame the baboons that mishandled the package. Someone who scratches metal for a living should know about the potential for such damage. He got paid, so will probably continue to pack items poorly.

It would be interesting to hear how this ends. But I think the outcome will ultimately reinforce the lesson that valuable thin-walled steel tubes should only be shipped (both ways) in something very sturdy and rigid like a well padded capped schedule 40 PVC pipe... And hopefully that is enough! I've had my own shipping damage to guns too.
Posted By: NCTarheel Re: Devalued double - 03/16/22 02:40 PM
Over the years, I've had similar damage issues with various firearms. Things happen. Sometimes trying to "fix" the damage issues was worse than the damage.
Posted By: canvasback Re: Devalued double - 03/16/22 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by keith
Originally Posted by Newton 1131
My intent here is to get a fair and reasonable assessment of damage by information provided from me to this panel.

Since you don't wish to have any suggestions on how to repair or mitigate the damage to your shotgun muzzles. I won't offer any at this time. But I seriously doubt whether the responsible party will give a damn about any damage estimates or loss in valuation opinions provided by anyone here... no matter how accurate it may be.

Considering past history in tragic circumstances such as this, I think you will have your work cut out for you when it comes to recovering money for your loss. If you had shipping insurance, the insurance company will only be interested in a damage estimate from a qualified gunsmith, and they may contest that too. Your engraver is likely to blame the baboons that mishandled the package. Someone who scratches metal for a living should know about the potential for such damage. He got paid, so will probably continue to pack items poorly.

It would be interesting to hear how this ends. But I think the outcome will ultimately reinforce the lesson that valuable thin-walled steel tubes should only be shipped (both ways) in something very sturdy and rigid like a well padded capped schedule 40 PVC pipe... And hopefully that is enough! I've had my own shipping damage to guns too.


Exactly.
Posted By: GLS Re: Devalued double - 03/16/22 05:41 PM
To the recommendation of a well, capped thick wall PVC tube: That tube should be placed in a box. Recent experience of my shipping a capped tube with action and barrels attached demonstrated the need to box it. My tube's thick, removable cap broke but was held in place by Gorilla tape. The contents were undamaged. This same tube had shipped a half dozen barrels all over the US and back with no problems until the last time. If tube alone is shipped, in addition to the inside, the outside should have padding to prevent breakage. However, the problem with a round tube is that it can roll off a conveyor belt in shipping. Never underestimate the skills and creativity of a shipper breaking contents in a package. Recently an optician shipped a 25" Newtonian Pyrex mirror for reflective coating application. The mirror weighed close to 100 lbs. and was well packed in a wooden crate and was insured for a value of $5K which had been sold to a third party who awaited the shipment after coating. The shipper was suspicious of contents, opened the crate and removed the packing without replacing the packing. The mirror was subsequently broken in shipping as it shifted around inside the crate. Gil
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Devalued double - 03/16/22 07:37 PM
Most of your damage will go away with a refinish of barrels. That is the simplest and most likely most effective way to fix your gun. I have several guns that have been refinished by their makers that had minor dings smoothed up, polished to blend and the refinished. Not every gun 100 years old is without flaws. I understand how upsetting a new one can be but as other have said things happen. Get it fixed to a level that makes you happy. But I also know from personal experiences that in the end nobody else is going to pay for it or even notice it was redone.
Posted By: Newton 1131 Re: Devalued double - 03/19/22 07:43 AM
All advice on packaging/shipping is noted. Let me add this, the main packaging material used to send these parts out was a heavy card board tube. The kind that if you were to smack a horse on the head it would probably knock’em out permanently. All parts were wrapped separately using adequate packing materials, buffered between and extra on each end. They successfully arrived undamaged. Problem is they were returned in the same tube but loosely wrapped in baking wax paper, not the packing I supplied. Also there was minimal buffer material ( common newspaper) so they could freely move and tear free from wax paper.

Because this is going to come up later I’ll say it now. It is my opinion, the shipper, USPS, has NO blame here. In this case they delivered that tube undamaged and actually on time. Parts rattling around inside was not their fault, fault lies solely on the packager/sender.

To all the guys who say “things happen”. I know you mean well, I get your point, and Thank You for that but I respectfully disagree the logic. To me a “things happen”attitude bring images of annoying inconveniences in life like dropping your keys into a mud puddle, a broken shoelace,or even the one finger wave from a motorist. ( sometimes I’m not even driving!) To me “ things happen” is to surrender your sword to the enemy before ever brandishing it.

As a free American it is my right to speak up. My words will help issues similar to mine from happening to you. I’m sure those reading this thread will double check their outgoing packages so it doesn’t happen to them, or even better yet their client. To many have be intentionally but unknowingly tricked into thinking it’s okay to silence yourself. There are many here at home trying to take that right from you. Not only do they want your second amendment right they want you to shut up and obey.

Kieth,
You were interested in a conclusion. Without getting into detail, the final position by engraver and his organization is that “responsibility falls on the USPS office because they accepted the package, It’s a law you know”.
I say that to knowingly assert false blame to another party is bottom of the barrel in the Ethics department, also go ahead and file a fraudulent damage claim to USPS especially if they enjoy prison food. Or maybe they were they suggesting I file that claim?
As for the long and devoted Code of Ethics page on their website, “ that only applies to master members, all those other guys just pay us a fee to be on there”
I say, if it doesn’t apply to all engravers then it becomes nothing more than a marketing tool for selling business. Take it down.

The whole point of finding fair assessment value was for me to show and act in good faith over an incident that was unfortunate but not intentional, to offer a realistic fair and affordable option. I came up with a very low number in dollars that included over 8 hrs of my time to repair damage about 50%, and live with what couldn’t be fixed for no charge. It was declined, and as you already knew they would lay blame on others.
Truthfully here, if my offer was accepted I would have said “ don’t send any money, I’ve already fixed half the damage and we can square up on the next project”. Not a bad deal and I did say,”next project”. Of coarse there will be a next project and bigger, just not available to anyone in that clubhouse.

I’m not new to this abuse, and similar instances will repeat themselves over the coarse of ones life. I know if I chose to move forward on reimbursement I am covered through my own insurance. I can obtain the proper paperwork from the gun manufacturer who is still in business. My insurance will pay me out and file claim on his assuming he has any. Been there before. But if you have any advice you would like to share I’m all ears.
Posted By: SKB Re: Devalued double - 03/19/22 10:24 AM
On packing


I learned an excellent method of preventing damage during shipping from the gentleman who exports my guns from the UK for me. Wrap the gun, barrels, stock etc in paper then a good covering of bubble wrap. When finished cut cardboard to cover the ends, trigger guard, hammers etc. Tape the cardboard in place. Then box with a good amount of filler. It does take a long time to get your package ready to ship. Use registered mail as it is hand carried the whole way.

I have had superb results using this method.
Posted By: ed good Re: Devalued double - 03/19/22 02:46 PM
ditto...
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com