What was the standard or “usual” factory constriction for a modified choked Winchester 16 gauge? Guns in question are are two Model 12’s, one from 1926, the other one 1936 and one model 1897 circa 1914. All three guns seem to be original and un-altered, all three a marked as “Mod” on the barrels.

All three guns are measuring chokes that are what would normally be considered to be in the IC/Skeet 1 range. Two model 12’s are .008 and the 1897 is .009.
Bore diameters are almost identical…..668 on the 1897, .669 on the 1936, .668 on the 1926.

This is all I have, and things may certainly have changed between 1914 and the publication of Jack O'Connor's The Shotgun Book in 1965
16 gauge bore and choke
……..…..……Browning……….Remington…….Winchester
Bore………...…0.665”…………..0.673”…………..0.664”
Full Choke…..0.037”…………..0.033”…………..0.031”
Modified….….0.025”…………..0.017”…………..0.016”
Imp. Cyl..…..0.016”…………..0.008”……..……0.007”

Certainly the British standard for "Half-choke" would be 1/2 of the Full constriction

The only modified choke 16-gauge Winchester I have is a NIB very late Model 12 Standard Grade and the choke measures .020". Your chokes are closer to my 1953 Model 12 16-gauge that is marked imp. cyl.

What are the bore diameters on your 2 model 12’s?

Schwing's Model 21 book lists 16 ga. Model 21 modified choke constriction as .010" to .015".

Note that he lists variance in bore diameter of (.005") for all gauges & choke constriction variance of (.002 to .010") depending on gauge & choke.

My assumption is that choke constriction changed with improvements in shotshells.

According to all I've learned and seen over the years I would not expect .008" and .009" constrictions to throw modified patterns out of a 16 gauge, Dustin. In a 16 gauge I consider modified constrictions to be in the .013" to .018" range. In a 16, .008" to .009" would usually be considered IC.

Ya. Believe me, I get it. These guns throw tight, modified patterns. I patterned all three of them years ago. I’ve been using them for years too. And the weird thing is, I’ve never actually measured the chokes until today. I only did that because after a round of clays, shooting the 1936 Model 12, a guy remarked “damn, that thing really smokes those targets”. They not only smoke targets, they smoke birds too. I use these guns on sharptails, sage grouse and pheasants, etc. when I need guns with more choke. They pattern way too tight for close work. I’ve smashed more than a few birds with these guns at 35+ yards and they were mushed, I’m talking all bones broken and a good amount of meat destroyed. Definitely indicative of a fairly dense, down range pattern. A gun /choke combo throwing skeet or IC patterns isn’t going to do that kind of damage.
With these measured constrictions, I can’t believe they throw patterns like they do, that’s what made me curious. I honestly figured they’d measure out to a full or improved modified type numerical constriction.🤷🏽‍♂️ The patterns tell a different story.
I also realized that the choke section in the bore is pretty short, maybe 2.5” at most. A vintage Remington I own also has a relatively short choke section.

Like I mentioned in my original post….these measured constrictions are not what I or anyone else would expect a Winchester factory cut, modified choke to be.

I’m hoping someone out there will measure their earlier model 12 16’s and see what they find out!!

I apologize if I'm overstating the obvious but, don't forget to allow for the dense center core of the patterns. When you center a bird with even a SK or IC choke the target will be smoke, even at 30 yards. I know how hard it is to allow for centering a bird in a pattern as opposed to fringing it, because we can't center them all the time, with any gun. But ....... with some guns it just seems easier to do that, and with those guns it seems like we can get by with less constriction.

Unless we're having a bad day. Then all "rules" are out the window!

I have found Winchester guns to be slightly more open bored, with less constriction, than others of the same choke. Heard a Winchester shooting rep say Winchester bored them that way so men hit more birds, not fewer birds harder. With good ammunition they thought it was more important to put shot some into every bird, than a lot of shot into a few birds. For the life of me, I can not remember that Reps name, it was the fellow who followed Herb Parson who died in 1959. That had to be 1962-1963 time frame. Also note in that time frame it was before heavy use of plastic wads, which I think keep patterns too tight in some guns. If your pattern is optimized for 30-45 yards shots by plastic wads and tight choke, and you can not hit birds at those ranges consistently, you have a gun which hits hard, but not often.

Anyways the pattern board does not lie and it sounds like your gun has that sweet spot in choke to bore we all wish for. Just a fair warning, never measure or pattern chokes of a .410 too much. It can mess your your mind and confidence. DAHIK, BTDT.

Interesting. Might be on to something here. A friend who owns two unmolested 16 gauge Model 21’s, both choked Mod/Full, one gun is from 1936, the other 1950 both of those guns Mod chokes are bored at .010. The full chokes measure at .025.
The gentleman who owns these two 21’s has done extensive pattern testing. He’s a very knowledgeable guy. He tells me his .010 Winchester cut chokes are absolutely throwing dense modified patterns!

If you can stomach it, pattern some of those vintage 16-gauge shells I gave you and compare their patterns to moderns shells as KY Jon noted. Modern plastic wads and progressive powders were game changers.

And then there is this: https://shotgunreport.com/2016/11/28/altitude-effect/

Are you patterning on one of your chukar mountains?

I have a 1940's model 12 16 gauge with 0.667 bore and 0.008 choke marked MOD. I believe the choke is factory unaltered. I agree that that seems light for a MOD choke but have had several others tell me it was normal from Winchester? I have never had enough confidence in it (based on some 16 yard trap shooting) to use it as my late season long range pheasant gun. I need to pattern it on paper. Just yesterday I passed on a model 12 16 gauge solid rib marked Imp.Mod. (really looking for same in full). I didn't have bore gauge to measure the constriction but close inspection showed that the choke had been probably opened up. I did score 3 boxes of Win Super X paper shells 2-16 gauge 2 9/16" roll crimped and 1 - 12 gauge 2 3/4" for all $40! Happy to get them.

Nope. 4300 ft is “down in the valley” here. I read that whole thing…..kind of felt like I just walked through a big, wet, sloppy manure pile. Gonna take a shower now to get all that bullshit stank off of me. 😂.

Just measured a Ithaca 37 16 ga. MOD out of curiosity. 0.659 bore and 0.020 choke. the bore size is surprising. I don't shoot it or like it nearly as much as the model 12.

Dustin,
Is there a big difference between the English felt wad 16s and the plastic wad US ammunition? The plastic wads throw tighter patterns in my experience.

Out of a Browning A5 16, an acquaintance tells me he runs either .012 or .018 constriction, depending. I haven’t spent much time patterning the 16s I own.

Best,
Ted

Dustin, 1959 M12 28" MOD .665" bore, .015" choke. A windy, cold January dove shoot at dawn a handful of years ago. Abby tucked in out of the wind. Gil

I had a Model 21 16ga, mid-30's gun (DT/extractors). Bore diameter was .669. Gun was choked IC in both barrels (.006/.008), but unfortunately I never checked Winchester records to determine whether those chokes were original. SN6062.

Larry, did you happen to pattern the gun, and if so, how did those chokes pattern for you? Like IC chokes should, or a little tighter/looser than normal?

Dustin:

In the FWIW column here, having just cut 1 1/2 inch of barrel off of a circa 1927 M12 16 bore, it patterns quite nicely at 9 points of choke (which I'd have thought was slightly-tight IC) . During the process of getting to the end of the crack we were eliminating, it seemed like there was at least 3-inches of constriction going on in it's tube. Not sure what that means, except that I'm even-more impressed with the build quality of these older Winchesters. As far as a comparison, was also shooing my English 16 as well that day and it's right tube is choked IC (7-8 thousand) and the patterns (which were side by side) were comparable. Looking forward to using it on something other than a grease board soon, maybe the local pet & shoot?

I have to admit that I never did. But I did shoot a lot of skeet with it, mostly using 7/8 oz reloads. Nothing I saw--like a lot of really smoked targets--led me to believe that it shot any tighter than an IC choke should.

Imagine a 12 gauge improved modified choke that measures .015. Cut? Bored out? No, that is a very common constriction for a Winchester improved modified barrel. I don't count pattern holes any more, so I can't tell you about the pattern percentages but a Winchester improved modified barrel will break a trap bird. 27 yards? I don't know.