with regard to english made guns, what constitutes out of proof, beyond obvious barrel alterations?

like, do pits or dents cause a gun to be deemed out of proof?

and what about twist steel barreled guns?

and if a gun is deemed out of proof, who does the deeming?

Hi Ed, this article will explain it better than I can. https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/is-that-gun-in-proof-

great article...thank you so much...

nothing is said about twist steel barrels...guess that means steel type is not a consideration for proofing...

and when a gun is destined for export, what is the procedure to confirm that it is in proof or not?

Ed, if twist steel barrels pass the Proof test for either black powder of nitro then they are proof tested to the same standard and safety as any modern types.

For export it has to be of the same Proof standard as those for domestic U.K. sale. The onus is on the seller to ensure that it conforms and if not it is an offence to even just offer it for sale. The Police can take the prosecution but usually it would be one or other of the Proof Houses that take the case to court as they would be contacted in any case to provide expert evidence. Hope that clarifies a little. Lagopus.....

thank you...

seems like if one purchases an old gun, (say pre 1940), in the uk, one should have it reproofed prior to export, in order to minimize question of safety...

what is the estimated cost of having a gun reproofed?

and what evidence is provided that gun passed proof?

Ed, the evidence that a gun has passed proof would be the actual proof/reproof and date stamp markings on the barrel flats. I assume all the shotguns coming out of the British Auction Houses & Dealers are checked over, including bore and chamber measurements to ensure due diligence and legal compliance before sale. Holts Auctions makes this statement under their listings re: Terms and Conditions, "Please note all Lots are listed in accordance with UK Law," My understanding is that only the Proof House can place the proof marks. See my attached photo of a barrel flat marked with the associated proof stamps; original proof markings dated 1904-1925, reproofed with "Crown over R" and date marks 1935/1936, reproofed again with 1959 date mark. UK Proof Marks

If a gun is still in proof, there is no real reason to have it reproofed. Proof is proof. I suspect anybody who would do such a thing, have now had their fourth booster shot and wear a mask when driving alone in their car. A dealer or auction house has absolutely no incentive to dump out of proof guns because the cost of doing so and getting caught is far beyond what little they can gain for doing it. Now if the gun has some historic value and deemed not likely to pass reproof and will not be shot, there use to be a proof exempt certificate. Do not know if they still have them as a option.

Think of what selling an out of proof gun would mean to a dealer who sell several thousands guns a year. A few pounds gain against a real inquiry, a fine and thousand of people finding out their reputation for selling good firearms is false.

So let's say you bought a used American or europen gun pre 1925 and it has had hundreds or even thousands of 2.75 winchester or Remington post 1940 shells through them those guns almost never go to a proof house for reproof or critical examination shady dealers sell them all the time how can we stop shade tree gun dealers unleashing this disaster on the innocent and unsuspecting populace .:)

So, what's your point, or was it a question?

Thinking it was aimed at a single dealer, known mostly for his no return policy.

Best,
Ted

And history of torching innocent guns and buyers?

eight: to repeat, one buys an old (say, pre 1940) english made gun in the uk...it was proofed when made... ammo has changed over time...proof specs have changed over time...

suppose proof was never updated, as was example above, provided by tim...

seems like it would be a good idea to have it reproofed before export in order to minimize concern that it will be safe to shoot with modern u.s. made ammo...especially. if gun was purchased for resale...

Most people who will buy an older, imported English gun grasp the fact that the guns have specific ammunition requirements. This is detailed in the markings on the flats. Even if proof specs change, that does not negate that the gun was proofed to a certain level, and ammunition that meets the requirements of that level of proof, should be used in that gun. Hint: Most American loaded ammunition is NOT intended to meet English shotgun requirements. Measuring the bores, chokes and chambers will show if someone, say, an unscrupulous US dealer, has had them tampered with, by excessive honing or boring, or otherwise changing the dimensions since the gun was proofed. Reproof, does not mean it is ready to run here in the states on promo loads from Wal-Mart.

Why do you have such a tough time grasping this, ed?

This isn’t that tough.
Best,
Ted

ted, i view it this way...any old gun should be subject to concern about its safe shooting qualities...we address the issue here via visual inspection, barrel wall measurements and by selecting ammunition we believe to be safe for us to shoot...no doubt the same is done in the uk...plus, they have the added option to have old guns reproofed to their latest standard of safety, by a gubmint entity...

it would seem we should take advantage of the uk reproofing service for guns we plan to have imported into our country...because:

- reproofing to current uk specs would expand ammunition options here?

- in a competitive market a gun carrying the most up to date proofs would be more desirable than a gun last proofed 80 or more years ago?

still wondering how long it takes to have a gun reproofed and the cost...

and if reproofing an old gun does enhance its resale value, then would a london house reproofing be more adventageous, versus a birmingham house reproofing?

So edd what about the guns you sell how many of them will be sent for reproof if the gun you sell is pre 1930 it wasnt ment for modern post 1935 ammo improvements do you know the exact barrel dimensions on any gun you sell that wasn't European proofed and so marked how many modern rounds were shot through each gun you sell you have zero idea and you don't care if a gun is in proof and is fed the proper ammo what the problem except your meds need to be adjusted

apologies, for this hi e ner like creature, mc...it continues to troll and harry my posts here...this fine forum could certainly use some moderation...

Hahahahahahahaha

Ed is jealous of English made guns.

Please give it a rest ed, and let us know how the proof testing goes for you.

A minimum pressure test would be 1 and 1/2 times the pressure of your intended load.

Entropy Engineering Corporation
http://www.entropyec.com/services.html

NTS Chesapeake (Belcamp, MD) | Ballistic & Materials Testing Lab
https://nts.com/services/testing/

Dayton T. Brown
https://www.dtb.com

doc drew, me give it a rest? the jokers who have come on here and trashed this thread should give it a rest...

i still would like answers to my last four questions, re reproofing...

it would seem we should take advantage of the uk reproofing service for old guns we plan to have imported into our country...because:

- reproofing to current uk specs would expand ammunition options here?

- in a competitive market a gun carrying the most up to date proofs would be more desirable than a gun last proofed, say 80 or more years ago?

- still wondering how long it takes to have a gun reproofed and at what cost?

- and if reproofing an old gun does enhance its resale value, then would a london house reproofing be more advantageous, versus a birmingham house reproofing?

I’ll give it a shot, ed, but, you are beginning to annoy me.

-Reproofing to current U.K. specs would NOT expand ammunition options, here. ALL US commercial ammunition should be assumed to be loaded to SAAMI maximum, about 11500psi, unless it is from a boutique maker who subjects his product to testing for pressure, and puts it in writing as to what pressure that particular lot makes. Ammunition options would expand if US commercial ammunition makers produced ammunition to a certain level of proof. They don’t.Those 80 year old guns are not suited to higher pressure US loads, even if they pass proof-they were designed with lower pressure ammunition in mind. Someone gave thought to how big the bolting surfaces and hinge should be. You can run lighter loads then what the gun was proofed for, but, heavier is asking for trouble. Additionally. The wood is old. The solder holding everything together is old.

-Knowledgable potential owners in a competitive gun market frown on English guns that have been altered. They are NOT more desirable with modification. From what I have seen, Englishmen prefer the 2 1/2” version of the game gun, believing they typically are balanced better, and built lighter.

-I’ve had a single gun submitted for reproof in Birmingham. They were prompt, and I can’t remember what it cost, so, I’m guessing it wasn’t eye opening, either way. Gun arrived, on schedule with new proof marks. Still used low pressure ammunition it was designed for to begin with.

-The number of guys who buy doubles, any type, is small. The guys who buy old English doubles is a subset of that. The guys in that subset, who can positively ID new London vs Birmingham proofs won’t likely pay more for one versus the other, because, they like them unmolested, remember?

Best,
Ted

Depends on what it was proofed for, don't you think?



Not if the gun is still within proof (this has been stated quite a few times, but you seem to ignore that.). If it is not in proof then whether it adds value depends on why it is not in proof, don't you think?



Why does it matter?



No.

That putty between your ears is mighty thick.

Ted, this is correct but some (not all) US ammunition has been submitted to CIP for testing and meets CIP standards. Among the ammunition in my storage area are the following that have CIP approval marks on the boxes:

Remington 16 gauge 1 ounce 1200 fps - Munich CIP mark
Winchester Super Target 20 gauge 7/8 ounce 1200 fps - Liege CIP mark
Winchester Super Target 12 gauge 1 ounce 1180 fps - Birmingham and London CIP marks
Winchester Super Target 12 gauge 1 1/8 ounce 1200 fps - Liege CIP mark

Fiocchi 16 gauge and 28 gauge do not have CIP marks on the boxes. These are assembled in the USA of foreign components.

The USA made Herters 12 gauge 1 ounce 1180 fps do not have CIP marks on the boxes but are believed to be the same as the Super Target 1 ounce 1180 fps cartridges

Obviously all of the European cartridges we have (Monarch, Challenger, RC, Italian made Herter's, etc.) are CIP approved.

For the "modern" guns my wife and I shoot (my 3 Beretta O/U's, my 2 AyA No 2's, our 2 Ugartechea SxS's and her Grulla SLE) we use any standard for gauge US or foreign cartridge - 12 gauge = 1 1/8 at 1200 fps, 16 gauge = 1 ounce at 1200 fps, 20 gauge = 7/8 ounce at 1200/1210 fps and 28 gauge = 3/4 ounce at 1200 fps. I'm comfortable that these are safe and will not damage the guns even with a significant amount of shooting. I stay away from heavy US loadings as much for my shoulder as my gun; my wife and I do not like heavy recoil.

I have 2 damascus barreled guns, a Joseph Lang completed in 1866 and rebarreled by James Woodward about 1872 and a Parker built in 1891. In these two guns I only shoot CIP 2 1/2 inch cartridges, RST 2 1/2 inch or 2 1/2 inch reloads (tested by Tom Armbrust) loaded to equivalent pressures.

gee ted, sorry to annoy you...

thanks for the intelligent, pertinent post...

rewatchin "bull durham"...

will get back to youse...

I have a few flats of Federal Gold Metals that are pretty recent, that have the CIP emblem on the bottom of the box, with an enigmatic “M” next to it. But, last years Gold Metals, and some recent Top Guns do not have the emblem. Seems a bit hit or miss, to me. I wouldn’t actually be in a hurry to run the 2 3/4” Federal paper loads in a 2 1/2” English gun, either. A poke here and there at a grouse or pheasant, maybe, but, not 100 rounds on a Sunday afternoon at the club.

I like really light loads in light guns, same reason as you.

Best,
Ted

thank you lord fur rst..

Maybe of interest here. There is a restaurant in Jackson, WY, the Gunbarrel. Great steakhouse in a Western motif. On most of the columns in the dining room, there are mounted crossed a pair of double barrels. I looked closely at several when I was there and was surprised to see names like Purdey, Churchill and H&H. I asked the manager about them but he had no clue. Out of proof barrels? The elk is great.

Take a look: https://jackson.gunbarrel.com/

interesting... reasons to go there...had bbq elk ribs recently...yum, yum...

bet the owner shoots an 1100?

Ted, All of the US (and European) cartridges that I have with the CIP mark are 2 3/4" and intended for 2 3/4" chambered guns so I will not shoot them in my 2 1/2" inch guns. CIP 2 1/2" (65mm & 67mm) cartridges are are proofed specifically for 2 1/2"chambered guns.

All of my guns are relatively light and light loads are much more pleasant to shoot.

I should clarify. There are no English short chambered guns here, old, or, otherwise. There have been, in the past.The lone 2 1/2” gun is a very old Darne. Old enough to have been proofed with powder S or J, because they were optional at that time, but, it was proofed with powder T. The barrel walls, 9” from the breech, are just over .050” wall. It is a 12, with beautiful, unaltered bores. Pits are a thing in old European guns. Not this one.

It is not an especially lightweight Darne. I will sneak an occasional 2 3/4” round in that gun, typically a 1 Oz or less at less than 1200 FPS. NOT a Pheasants Forever 1 1/4 Oz loads of #5s at 1300fps. The increase in pressure, using rational loads 2 3/4” long, in a short 2 1/2” chamber, is negligible. I wouldn’t do it in a gun that I didn’t feel was up to snuff, but, I wouldn’t own a gun like that.

I have no doubt that the Darne is up to it, and that it will be in use long after I am not.

Best,
Ted

while we here in the states do not have to follow the proof laws relative to selling old sxs guns, I suspect many would feel the value is effected by whether a gun is in proof or not. I own two classics, bought knowing they were out of proof but had the barrel walls checked and felt comfortable knowing I was only going to shoot light 7/8 oz loads in 12 ga guns proofed for 1 1/8 loads. In both cases I suspect my purchase price would have been substantially higher had they been in proof. I might add I consulted a few of my most knowledgeable friends regarding sending them back to England and have them reproofed and the answer was the same. "Why subject them to the stress ? Use them as intended and enjoy them. "

Agree with all of this, particularly on valuation. Bought and sold a wildly out of proof but solid hammer gun for cheap, and would probably do it again under the same circumstances. However, now I am primarily interested in in-proof stuff only. Would rather be able to advertise it as such at time of sale.

ted, regarding your reponses to my questions...thank you...a couple of questions...

are you saying saami max pressure of 11500psi exceeds current english proof specs? if so, by how much for each gauge?

are you saying that our commercial target loads, typically going out at around 1200 fps, could generate 11500 max psi?

ed,
Current English proof specs are higher than what was typically applied to older English guns. A few brands of guns from yore are gaining a reputation for failure at reproof, Coggies, among others, are in the group. But, and this is important, that failure is mostly the result of pushing the gun to a level of proof it wasn’t designed for, AND DOESN'T NEED. Just use or load the right damn ammunition. US Promo loads are some of the worst offenders. Quite a few of them hit over 10,000 psi, OK for your 1100 that hasn’t been cleaned this year. But, we don’t know what we don’t know, ed, and if you don’t have information demonstrating otherwise, it is better to assume your American 2 3/4” ammo is too hot for your vintage English gun.
The boxes of American ammunition printed with the symbol for CIP certification is a fairly recent development, likely related to manufacturers selling US loaded ammunition in Europe. For what it is worth, the French gun makers I hung out with, and drank too much at the evening meal with, were pretty much unconcerned with pressure from modern loads, but, were emphatic that an obstructed bore was a whole different deal.

Best,
Ted

thanks...

Also, I would not use promo or other “hot” loads in original 2.5” chambered guns that have been reproofed for 2.75”. Just because the chamber will accommodate the shell doesn’t mean all 2.75” loads should’ve used. For me intended pressures are unchanged from original proof. Lengthened chambers don’t change that. I hear all the time that modern ammo (and the associated pressures implied) can be used if the gun has been reproofed with lengthened chambers. I don’t buy that.

As to cost of Proof. The real cost is in the preparation for Proof in that the action must be tight and the barrels free from dents, bulges or pits and is what the Gunsmith charges and what has to be done. Very often only the action and barrels are sent minus the stock and forend. This is the initial View stage. On calling at the Proof House the gun is passed through the doors and visually checked; hence 'View'. If it passes this initial examination is is taken away. If it fails it's handed straight back with reason it has failed this stage and there is a small fee to pay at that point. It can be Proof tested while-u-wait or more usually collected the following week. Cost was a little over £20 per barrel or double that if done on the day. Interesting place to visit and small parties can be taken around by prior arrangement. Anyone with a copy of Greener's 'Gun & its Development' can look at the illustrations there and virtually nothing has changed to this day. Lagopus.....

and then there is this,,,


https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2020/03/a-contrarian-view-of-shotgun-proof.html

im think in to jes fur git the hole thang...

and contin ya to re lye on mah old eye an old ed's 90-30 guide lines...