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Posted By: Lloyd3 Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 04:55 PM
Hanging out at Whittington got me salivating to own a hammergun yet again. The reasons for having one are purely affectation, but there is no denying their appeal. As far as tastes go, mine are fairly conventional...I'd prefer back-action locks, damascus barrels, nitro-proofs, a top=lever opener, etc. Variations on that theme are probably allright (bar-actions are fine too & a sidelever would be very appealing). Because I'm fooling myself into believing that I'd actually hunt with it, I'd prefer one that was in the 6 3/4 lb range, with an English stock I could live with (1 1/2, 2 1/2, 14 5/8, etc.) and because of my left handed-ness I'd prefer something with only minimal cast off (if not actually neutral or cast-on). I owned a circa 1892 20-gauge Thomas Bland that actually met those requirements some 20-years ago now, that I really enjoyed looking at in it's cute little case, but it just didn't make the grade as a ruffed-grouse gun (I couldn't cock those hammers fast enough) so... it went on down the road. A big name gun is clearly too-much to hope for (Purdey, Horsley, Blanch, etc.) so I'm open to the provincial makers, provided their work is up to snuff. I'm also torn between the artistic and the practical ends of the scale here, as a modern Italian version would work just fine as well, but...it wouldn't look quite-right to me. A 16 would be lovely but a 12 seems much more practical (and available). Black powder proofs are fine as well, provided the tubes are substantial-enough to be comfortable with low-pressure (but modern) ammunition. I see a number of examples on the Vintage Doubles webpage, and the entry-level price seems to be in the $2,400 range. Kirby's been a good source of guns for me before, so I'm comfortable with his descriptions and the conditions of his guns (within reason). I know there are hammergun variants all-over the map here, but English, old, and straight-stocked seem to the parameters I can't live without. And...since good repair options are becoming extremely expensive, a healthy example would seem to be de-minimus as well.

Am I missing anything? What says the cognoscenti here?
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 05:14 PM
Possibly chokes ?
Posted By: eeb Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 05:17 PM
Through lumps, third fastener. I prefer guns without through lumps and with third fasteners. Side clips are a plus
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 05:30 PM
You need to go on a good bender, and allow this foolishness to pass.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 05:51 PM
Side-clips, through-lumps, rebounding hammers and chokes would all be a plus, no question, but they're not deal breakers. Fine Damascus would be preferable as well, but skelp or even twist barrels in very-good condition wouldn't put me off either. I suspect that use would be mostly limited to nice days at the trap range and the occasional dove hunt. Cased would be extremely nice as well.

Ted: after spending a bunch of money on boat-docks and 4x4 truck repair, I might feel like I've been on a bender. The net-effect will likely be the same. I'll even have to move a few guns to build a war-chest here, so I'm in no hurry.
Posted By: Remington40x Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 05:56 PM
As a guy who owns, shoots and hunts with hammer guns in 10, 12, 16, 20 and 28 gauge, I say go for it. You seem to have covered all the major points. Ted likes Darnes (as do I - have two), so it's not as if he's not gone down his own rabbit hole with out of the ordinary shotguns.

I have not been particularly successful in cocking the hammers upon a grouse's flush, but I'm not particularly successful killing grouse with any gun. The only one of my hammer guns I'd try to hunt grouse with is my SIACE 28 gauge and that only because it has a tang safety as well as hammers. The others include two British (10 with damascus barrels; 12 sleeved with fluid steel barrels); one pre-war Austrian (16); and two modern Italian (20 and 28).

Don't forget that you can probably have the stock bent to move cast off to neutral or cast on. I suspect Mr. Hoyt could tell you which of the guns he's offering would be good candidates for such an adjustment.

Looking is half the fun. Hope you find one that suits you.
Posted By: FallCreekFan Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 06:21 PM
Lloyd, I have dealt with a few rounds of this particular bug and can say that while it isn’t especially virulent it is persistent. I personally have three, a 28” twist, a 30” Damascus, and a 32” twist, all 16’s and can say that I’m glad every day that I have them and also that I now seemed to have acquired a natural immunity to the bug. (But we’ll see.)

Over on 16ga this same bug hit one of the fellows at the beginning of the year and there is some good feedback there. The thread is currently at the top of p. 2 of the “Guns” section.

Glad you’re going to have to work and wrangle a while to get ready for the purchase. Adds to the fun. Keep us posted on the journey don’t forget pics when you get there.
Posted By: Replacement Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 06:52 PM
I have hammer guns in 12-16-20, American classic Damascus, 19th century Brit twist, Belgian Damascus, modern Spanish and Italian fluid steel. They are all fun, and the Brit (Brummie) gun is clearly the best of the bunch. BUT, my Belgian 16 Damascus is nothing to sneeze at, and my advice is to keep the Belgians on your search list.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 07:45 PM
I’m pretty sure my ancestors left Europe to get away from hammerguns, well, that, and all the criminal royalty class. I’ve never met anyone that made the claim that hammerguns improved their odds on gamebirds.

Not even here. That, is saying something.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 07:49 PM
Lloyd, sent you an email of possibles.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 08:10 PM
I am pretty fussy about hammer guns.. A couple of things that matter a lot to me are the sight picture with the hammer's back and the degree to which I can cock both hammers at 1 time with my thumb. Not all guns are made equal in that respect. Personally, my Cashmore hammer gun is pretty close to ideal . It's done a great job of killing pheasants, particularly in warm weather, and ducks at any time.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 08:21 PM
You won't hunt with it much. It needs to be a pound heavier for targets, which is the pursuit you will use and enjoy it the most("purely affectation", raison d'etre). If you do decide to tote it in the woods, just go with it and complain about how heavy it is.
JR
Posted By: oskar Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 08:24 PM
There are some more modern hammer guns out. Bernardelli Brecia and Italia are usually reasonably priced as are Husqvarna. I have pair of 51's. I would love to find a reasonably priced P Sauer 16ga.

Husky 12ga made in 1941
[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

1907 Drilling 16ga/16ga/9.3x72R I used the shotgun barrels on this guy as I had no rifle ammo along. It is a very handy bird gun also.
[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Then there is the Beretta 300th Anniversary O/U MZL that I've killed a bunch of grouse and wood ducks up in northern WI, sorry no pics. Maybe this fall I'll take it duck hunting.
Posted By: eeb Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I’m pretty sure my ancestors left Europe to get away from hammerguns, well, that, and all the criminal royalty class. I’ve never met anyone that made the claim that hammerguns improved their odds on gamebirds.

Not even here. That, is saying something.

Best,
Ted

They may have escaped hammerguns but the criminal royalty class is alive and well. Apologies for the political digression
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I’ve never met anyone that made the claim that hammerguns improved their odds on gamebirds.

Bet you've never heard anybody make that claim about .410s, either. But then, that's not the reason we odd fellows do what we do.
Posted By: Replacement Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 10:32 PM
Quote
Bet you've never heard anybody make that claim about .410s, either. But then, that's not the reason we odd fellows do what we do.

I'm so odd that I'd like to have a hammer .410 for doves.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 10:47 PM
I cured my hammergunitis with two 12 gauges, which I still own and enjoy. The first is a Remington 1889. The second is an Italian hammergun built in 1973. It has Briley thin walls, fluid steel barrels (of course), and can digest anything I want to put through it. I've got $1200 in both, combined. That's something to consider.
Posted By: LGF Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/04/22 10:51 PM
Don't dismiss a Jones underlever - one gets used to it quickly and it is good for lots of affectation points.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 12:47 AM
+1 on the Jones underlever. They are really cool.

There are two critical features of a good, vs a not so good, hammer gun, in my opinion. 1. What is the sight picture like at full cock on both barrels? Are the hammer ears distracting? 2. Can both hammers be cocked with one sweep of the trigger-hand thumb? If you must thumb them back independently, that is no good. I have always thought that someone should make a hammer gun that would cock both barrels with just the right hammer.

This William Evans 16b meets those two requirements with easy.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So does this Cashmore 12b.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 01:30 AM
Hammer gun (1884), .410, side-lever, SxS. Damascus barrels. Reproofed in 2007. Reilly to boot. Ask and you shall receive. I'd post pictures but am so bummed out about 5 years of research GWTW I won't do it. but a neat looking gun which I posted here 2 years ago.

25851 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16, New Oxford Street, London and rue Scribe, Paris. Shotgun SxS. .410. Side lever, hammer gun. Sample naturalist gun?
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Argo44
I'd post pictures but am so bummed out about 5 years of research GWTW I won't do it.

Guess you should have learned from the Photobucket deal and saved them somewhere, Gene.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 02:25 AM
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

W.W.Greener from about 1870. Non rebounding and Jones under lever. Absolutely untouched original. From half cock it is extremely quick to sweep both hammers to full with my thumb. Notice the hammers at full cock are below the barrels, out of sight. IMO the 1870’s were the peak of English gunmaking. Everything was hand made, very little machinery.

My favorite upland hammer gun is a very early (possibly the first) Charles Daly finished in Germany from Scott parts in the 1870’s. About 6 1/2 pounds with original 28” barrels. High rebounding hammers close enough to sweep back together with one hand. Fast!

Here is the Daly doing what it does best:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: prairie ghost Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 02:46 AM
That is a beautiful shotgun. Good enough reason to carry it afield.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 03:01 AM
One of the guns that got me going on this little adventure. Joe's guns are lovely. The hammers on that Greener are unlike any I've ever seen before.

It's not hard to figure out Mr. Wood's raison d'etre for that Scott-sourced Charles Dailey, eh? Very cool. That confirms for me that there are huntable hammer guns out there. The key is finding the right one.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 03:06 AM
https://imgur.com/a/nXJ9XTS

Trying to figure out IMgur. I should have bid on this gun 2 years ago.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 04:17 PM
Argo, what is it?

Lloyd, IMO there are very few hammer guns available that are suitable for my type of upland shooting. I must have a super quick gun for when a covey of quail explodes right under my feet. The Daly fits it perfectly. But I must say when I walk into a wild covey that the dogs have locked down on both hammers are already cocked.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/05/22 11:05 PM
BrentD: Nice William Evans 16 BTW.

Also, and more to your point, many (if not most) hammer guns have learning curves (and some can be fairly steep). Hunting with one presents challenges that have been unheard-of for, what... the last 2 or 3 generations of hunters? The world has moved-on (in so-many ways) and seeing one afield is very rare now. Other than using one myself (a few years ago now), I've never encountered another in the field (sadly, I suspect that's probably more of a comment on where and when I actually do go afield).

With the passage of time, good or even "great" useable examples are now becoming fairly uncommon. For the much earlier and perhaps more-refined versions, because of their mostly-now very advanced age and the technologies employed in their making (almost exclusively by hand & with long-obsolete [i.e., "primitive"] steels), they have care & feeding components well beyond what your average shotgunner is willing to tolerate or even bother to understand, at least...in order to use them properly and safely. They have become so-much more art than utility, when you consider the many inherent "disadvantages" some of them now possess. I recently heard the term "boutique" being used to describe a very early example, and it's an apt description. Ignorance here is not only expensive, it can be maiming (and even lethal). Not using ammunition with the proper levels of pressure (or even the correct dimensions) and/or not utilizing rigorous and then timely cleaning techniques will inevitably lead to a disaster (in one form or another). And yet....for me at least, they represent some of the greatest examples of a gunmaker's artistic expression that I've ever seen or held. Seeing several exceptional examples again recently (down at Whittington) has really brought that back to me.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Joe Wood
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

W.W.Greener from about 1870. Non rebounding and Jones under lever. Absolutely untouched original. From half cock it is extremely quick to sweep both hammers to full with my thumb. Notice the hammers at full cock are below the barrels, out of sight. IMO the 1870’s were the peak of English gunmaking. Everything was hand made, very little machinery.

Joe,
If that Greener ever needs a new home, please keep me in mind. smile
Posted By: Parabola Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 08:18 AM
King George V stuck with hammer guns all his life.

But I take it that his loader handed them to him already cocked.
Posted By: Chantry Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 02:18 PM
I bought lot 222, a J. Burrows hammered shotgun almost 6 years ago. The gun had been re-stocked and probably in 2000 the chambers were lengthened to 2 3/4" and re-proofed for nitro at the Birmingham Proof House. Other then replacing the 2 screws that hold the hammers on, I haven;t had to do anything else. So if you are patient and willing to accept some compromises (re-stocked and a Jones under lever) one can still find a hammer gun at a reasonable price that is shoot-able with modern ammo.



Link: https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/catalog/78419/summer-firearms-auction-june-18--2016/?cpage=5
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 07:40 PM
What's the general opinion here of rebounding versus non-rebounding hammers?

I assume you just have-to get used to bringing the gun back to half-cock before opening? From a hunting perspective, I suppose it does slow one down a skosh when needing to reload, but...really, aren't we're talking relative speed in a low to no-speed situation? From my clearly-unfamiliar perspective (my last hammer was rebounding), I see non-rebounding hammers in about the same light that I see a Jones underlever. Both work just fine, but both require time and familiarity to become proficient, eh? On a trap range I'd guess it's really a non-issue, but on a dove field, how much is one giving up in reloading time over a rebounding-hammer equipped gun?

Next question: do non-rebounding hammers cock more easily (from half-cock) than rebounding hammers? Are you giving anything up by going with the rebounding option?
Posted By: Chantry Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Lloyd3
What's the general opinion here of rebounding versus non-rebounding hammers?

I assume you just have-to get used to bringing the gun back to half-cock before opening? From a hunting perspective, I suppose it does slow one down a skosh when needing to reload, but...really, aren't we're talking relative speed in a low to no-speed situation? From my clearly-unfamiliar perspective (my last hammer was rebounding), I see non-rebounding hammers in about the same light that I see a Jones underlever. Both work just fine, but both require time and familiarity to become proficient, eh? On a trap range I'd guess it's really a non-issue, but on a dove field, how much is one giving up in reloading time over a rebounding-hammer equipped gun?

Next question: do non-rebounding hammers cock more easily (from half-cock) than rebounding hammers? Are you giving anything up by going with the rebounding option?

I view re-bounding hammers as much safer. I may be mistaken, but non-rebounding hammers is much like an old Colt Single Action Army, if you carry a live round under the hammer you risk a sharp blow or dropping the gun causing the gun to fire.
Posted By: FallCreekFan Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 08:46 PM
Lloyd, received my Spring DGJ today and after scanning it I wanted to warn you that, in light of your current fever, you open it at your peril. 😉
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 10:08 PM
FallCreekFan: Great! Even more temptations.

Did up a list of my lesser (& less-used) ordinance and will start to unearth them shortly. The good news here is that back-up, wet-day, and even beginner/loaner guns all seem to have a little more value these days. The bigger problem is that several reside in a different time-zone (stashed at family & friend's houses over the years to facilitate hunting trips back to the ancestral home). This will take the time it takes, I suppose. The better part of that is re-discovering all the unique terminologies associated with the breed, such as "snail-type percussion fences w/coves", "nipples", "lever-releases", "cross-pin fasteners", & the "noses, ears, necks, breasts & stop pins" of the hammers themselves. I also have a secret weapon, that was purchased years ago for just such an occasion...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I have clearly been thinking about this for a while now.

url=https://imgur.com/nCNjd4q][Linked Image from i.imgur.com][/url]

It looks like Diggory might take umbrage with my earlier assertion.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Chantry
Originally Posted by Lloyd3
What's the general opinion here of rebounding versus non-rebounding hammers?

I assume you just have-to get used to bringing the gun back to half-cock before opening? From a hunting perspective, I suppose it does slow one down a skosh when needing to reload, but...really, aren't we're talking relative speed in a low to no-speed situation? From my clearly-unfamiliar perspective (my last hammer was rebounding), I see non-rebounding hammers in about the same light that I see a Jones underlever. Both work just fine, but both require time and familiarity to become proficient, eh? On a trap range I'd guess it's really a non-issue, but on a dove field, how much is one giving up in reloading time over a rebounding-hammer equipped gun?

Next question: do non-rebounding hammers cock more easily (from half-cock) than rebounding hammers? Are you giving anything up by going with the rebounding option?

I view re-bounding hammers as much safer. I may be mistaken, but non-rebounding hammers is much like an old Colt Single Action Army, if you carry a live round under the hammer you risk a sharp blow or dropping the gun causing the gun to fire.

Both rebounding and non rebounding are equally safe IF used properly. Both have a half cock notch the sear settles into. Only difference is the rebounder automatically moves into the safe position. The non rebounder has to be pulled into the half cock notch. These notches also serve as intercepting Sears—if the hammers accidentally fall from full cock without the trigger being pulled then the sear will stop the hammer fall as the sear slides into the half cock notch.

The rebounder is much more convenient since the hammer automatically retract, allowing the barrels to be opened. The non retractor requires the shooter to first manually put the gun on half cock before opening. Forgetting to do that can result in a broken firing pin.

The non rebounder I own is much easier to cock from half cock than a non rebounder. Just like how a compound bow works, the tumblers have cammed over at half cock and there is little resistance remaining in the mainspring.

Bottom line: non rebounders, invented by Stanton in 1868, are much more convenient and faster than non rebounders. But I find both attractive. The non rebounder just continues the same mechanics that had been in use for several hundred years. I think they are sexy.
Posted By: FallCreekFan Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 10:32 PM
Bravo. 😎
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 10:46 PM
Joe Wood: Thank you for that! I suspected that might be the case. So...non-rebounders set at half-cock might just be the ticket for the oft-encountered "snap-shots" seen in lots of upland hunting situations? And, much-like what you mentioned earlier here, when hunting alone and in a very gamey situation, my hammers used to be in the "hot" position as well. Sometimes that even worked.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 11:45 PM
There is little art more beautiful than a perfectly sculpted hammer. This one belongs to a Williams & Powell, Liverpool. Circa 1873.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


……..unless it’s a perfectly sculpted action as on this Thomas Johnson, Swaffham, Norfolk. 1869? This gun is #3 of a garniture (set of three) and made by Joseph Brazier, Ashes and the only gun I have seen made by Brazier.

The really neat thing about hammer guns made up to the mid 1880’s is that you will never see an identical gun unless it was made as a set. The gun was rapidly evolving and also the individual artisans took great liberties in creating their work. Remember, every single piece was hand made and unique, there was no stock factory making interchangeable or cast parts.

Notice the very percussion cups on the head of the hammers. The cutout was for percussion caps—when fired any fragments from the cap were supposed to blow out through them. This design hung on for a few years into the breech loading era.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/06/22 11:54 PM
Joe, you have the best hammers. They are gorgeous.
Posted By: Shotgunlover Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/07/22 08:57 AM
I am not advocating walking about with a cocked hammer gun. The reasons are obvious and are the same reasons that indicate that walking about with a cocked hammerless gun with the safety on is just as dangerous and risky.

But when in an active hunting phase, such as standing at a spot when pass shooting or behind a dog on point or about to flush game, I think it is reasonably safe to cock the hammers. Naturally the hammers will be lowered and the gun opened when the active phase is over. And this brings us to actions that allow opening the gun when the hammers are cocked. Not all top lever hammer guns allow that. Side pedal and underlever actions do, as do very few top lever guns. It seems safer and wiser to lower the hammers on an open action.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/07/22 05:10 PM
In reading Diggory's book again here, the variety of hammer shapes over the years is astounding. Starting with the pinfire guns and evolving through the final iterations, many different shapes and styles were employed. It's funny what I'm drawn to, but the one's that mimic (or were converted from) the original shapes used during the pinfire-era look absolutely fabulous to me. Ultimately the "dolphin" types of hammers seems to be a high point of styling IMHO (a classic example of those would be the one's on Joe Wood's fully cocked Thomas Johnson above). I think the earlier pinfire hammers look more-like what an actual dolphin's head might to me (and is perhaps where the idiom comes from?), but the engraving style and patterns on the latter true "dolphin" hammers are usually a visual tour-de-force (the darn things even have eyes!). And, the pairing required to achieve any symmetry in the guns (right down to even the slightest engraving) can't have been easy. Imagine the man-hours involved in all that (hundreds I'd guess? skilled labor was obviously much-cheaper in those days). The combination of functional (the cross-hatching on the ears so they wouldn't slip while cocking) artfully blended with the characteristics of a large swimming mammal? How does one come up with that one? The hammers on Joe's early 1870s Greener (pictured above as well) are yet another engraving masterpiece, look how the folate scrolls evolve up the body from the base...just stunning. Pictures simply don't do that gun justice, only seeing it in person gives you the full-effect. Those self-retracting strikers are pretty wild looking too (another first for me).
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/07/22 09:05 PM
I own and shoot about a dozen hammer guns, mostly at clay targets because that seems to be what I get to shoot mostly. Nothing is fast or even more practical about hammer guns but I still love them. The one I still want is a S. Grant side lever, but every one of them seems to go for three times the estimate at auction. I have a Charles Smith with a forwards facing side lever which I shoot extremely well, but it is no Grant.

I know I not in the majority, but a top lever ruins the lines and function of a hammer gun. My first choice would be a side lever, interesting enough both left and ride side lever seem to work equally well for me. I have a Pape 20 bore thumb under lever which is a joy to shoot. 30” barrels choked mod and mod is a real killer.

The Purdey trigger under levers are interesting, but I find them a bit fiddle to use. Perhaps my thumbs are too short or fat. A Lang push forward under lever would be just behind a Grant on my list. There are a lot of options if you are patient. Rebounding or non rebounding never made much difference to me. I am not on a driven shoot where half a second makes any difference.

There is a British internet hammer gun dealer site with about 30 different guns on hand. Prices range from 3,000 pounds to 30,000 pounds. Often there are guns from provincial makers, not from London, which seem to have more interesting values. Then there are always the auctions but nice hammer guns, which had little interest ten years ago seem to have recovered a following and nice one go for bigger bucks than I am willing to spend.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/08/22 06:38 PM
KY Jon: I have always been attracted to guns with a clean profile along the top of the action. A top-lever combined with the hammers does tend to make things seem a little "busy" on the top of a gun, which is why side-levers always looked so darn-good to me too. The same for snap-actions, hammer "lifters", and even Dougal's somewhat-awkward looking (at least to me) "Lockfast" guns. The profile of almost every "modern" doublegun includes a top-lever, which is exactly why hammer guns without them look so-darn unique.

There is clearly a "steampunk" component at work here (look that one up!), certainly in the appeal of double guns from the 1860s and 1870s, because they just look so-dramatically different. In a world of seemingly-endless conformity, they simply don't. The price of that "difference" is usually a more-cumbersome (& accordingly slower) loading, firing, and then re-loading process, and while that's not quite as "prehistoric" as a muzzleloader might be, they're really not...very far from it. But, by the 1880s and beyond, the top-lever came into dominance and the lion's share of the guns from that period onward seem to have them. As I cast my eye over the offerings available to a newcomer onto the hammered-shotgun scene, the more-practical (I.E., more-affordable and less worn-out) options usually have top-levers. You're clearly paying a premium, nowadays, to get a sidelever gun and for exactly those reasons.

Curiously, the Jones-patent sidelever option doesn't seem to be affected by all of that. My view of them has always been, admittedly, somewhat less-enthusiastic as even-more than the many other lock-up options (& seemingly much-like a muzzleloader) Jones-patent guns dramatically slow-down the whole loading/reloading process. By re-thinking the whole Hammergun "ethos" however, I am warming-up a bit-more to them. I'd even consider one now (which is quite an admission from me). After much consideration (& a fairly deep dive into the literature) it all boils down to "condition" now. I'm looking for a mostly-original hammer gun that hasn't been abused or (God-forbid!) tarted-up excessively. A little honest clean-up is fine, but original finishes look far-better to me than the many alternatives, and if that gun has a top-lever or... even a Jones, it matters not.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/08/22 07:41 PM
Lloyd,
I’ll help you out. Clean on top:

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]


You won’t believe how slick that V safety is for a lefty.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/09/22 12:29 AM
Lloyd, I’ll challenge you a bit on the Jones underlever. A Jones can be cycled almost as fast as with a top lever. I’d say at most the Jones takes about one second longer, maybe less all else being equal. Remember, when you close a Jones the lever automatically cams to within an inch or so of the triggerguard. To finish closing my hand never leaves the stock wrist but I just reach with my index finger and quickly pull it over the triggerguard. Remarkably fast once you get used to it. And a Jones underlever, non ejector is about as bullet proof as any gun ever made. And I’ll choose the wedge forend fastener any day over the Anson or Deeley fasteners. Totally dependable. And as my old gunsmith David Yale once told me, “I’ve never seen a Jones off face.” Oh, the pin and hook can wear but the camming down of the Jones makes the action rock solid.

A well kept secret is a fine gun with a Jones action that is also non rebounding is often half the price of the more “modern” guns. There are very few non rebounders remaining. When Stanton invented the rebounder most earlier gun’s locks were sent back to the maker and converted to the new fangled rebounder. That was a major overhaul requiring a new tumbler and a totally new mainspring along with a tiny bit of new inletting.

You do understand I’m not prejudiced about the Jones, don’t you? LOL!
Posted By: builder Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/09/22 12:59 AM
My E C Greene 10g with Jones Lever does exactly what Joes says. Close the barrels and the Jones closes most of the way. Do it hard and it will close completely.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/09/22 03:59 AM
Jones under levers are extremely strong actions. Many were still being used for double rifles, long after the top lever came into fashion. Side levers and push forwards under levers are really neat. I had been looking for a Lang push forwards under lever for several years. Most were worn out or seemed to cost twice what I wanted to pay. I found one which is swept for central vision and bought it for a bargain. Shot it last weekend at sporting clays and had a decent 44 out of 50 on a course that I consider very easy. Missed four birds on the first station. I stopped over thinking about shooting a central vision gun. After I started just concentrating on seeing the bird and focusing on the bird I got into a groove.

I have several non top lever hammer guns. The period of 1860-1875 saw a lot of locking systems come and go and hammer guns can be found in almost every flavor. Find a gun with solid barrels and the rest will take care of itself. Do not rule out a sleeved gun. While they may weigh a bit more they will give years of service. In fact, most hammer guns will have tired barrels after 140-150 years of life. I always look at a sleeved gun as a gun brought back to life.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/09/22 09:00 PM
Being a southpaw, the Jones looks pretty unwieldy to me, but I suppose after a fashion I could get used to it. Ted, the safety on the few Darne's I have handled didn't seem all that friendly to me. Mr. Wood: I've made at least one pilgrimage to Yellowjacket back in the day to see David Yale & his Susquehanna Machine Tool business. I hear he's hung up his spurs?
Posted By: damascus Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/10/22 01:57 PM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This is one of the smoothest outline guns if you like snap action leaver though they do take a lot of adapting your shooting style to use comfortably, also keeping your leaver thumb nail short or you may loose it.

Joe here is another Joseph Brazier

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This gun is one of the death us do part from my collection. It has spent all of its life in a Victorian Violin case to remain hidden from inquisitive eyes because it spent all its life working on each side of the line, game keeping and poaching. The family that owned the gun like the real skilful poachers are now gone, only this is now left.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It has one of the longest top straps I have come across

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The gin is a 12 bore with 30 inch barrels but built on a smaller than usual frame. I have tried to fit other 12 bore guns in the case but non ever fitted correctly.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It really does not look like a gun transport case

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I did try some research into completed guns made by Brazier but only came up with a few pieces of information. Braziers only sold completed guns to top level retailers and guns in the White only to top level gun makers, this Brazier made gun has the name Adams it also carries a full set of London Proof Marks. Those sharp eyed amongst you will see that the fore end escutcheon is missing this went missing on the last club black powder day it is now beyond my capabilities to manufacture a replacement so up the the guns next owner.
Posted By: Chantry Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/10/22 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Being a southpaw, the Jones looks pretty unwieldy to me, but I suppose after a fashion I could get used to it. Ted, the safety on the few Darne's I have handled didn't seem all that friendly to me. Mr. Wood: I've made at least one pilgrimage to Yellowjacket back in the day to see David Yale & his Susquehanna Machine Tool business. I hear he's hung up his spurs?

Being right handed with a left eye dominance, all my shotgun & rifle shooting is done from the left shoulder and with just a little practice I think you'll find Jones under lever fairly easy to use.
After the shot is fired, the fingers on the left hand push the under lever from 6 o'clock to 3 o'clock while the right hand lowers the barrels
Once the barrels are open, the right hand grabs 1 or 2 shells from the belt, pouch or pocket, inserts the shells and raises the barrels at which point the left had pulls the under lever from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

I don't have large hands or long fingers, but without rushing, I can probably reload the gun in under 2 seconds, with grabbing the shells and inserting them into the gun being the longest part of the process. It certainly isn't going to be as fast as a double with ejectors, but it isn't much slower than a double using a side or top lever and just extractors.

I probably felt the same way you do now, before I started using a Jones under lever, it is quicker to use than it looks.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/10/22 09:54 PM
Chantry: Thankyou for that! I was hoping that would ultimately be the case but... your first-hand experience and insight here sounds spot-on and is very much appreciated.

Another question for the hammered-gun crowd here: twist and/or even skelp-barreled guns...any concerns here as-compared to true English-best Damascus? I know the laminated-steel tubes produced later in the era (1890s) were of comparable strength to true-Damascus. Does that also apply to the earlier and perhaps more-affordable (mostly-unadorned guns with fairly plain wood and zero engraving) being produced...let's say in the early/middle 1880s by smaller (& largely-unknown) provincial makers?

Also, I remember hearing (or reading somewhere) that in some of the very early break-action guns, the chambers can be thinner than what became the average, due the the planned use of "perfects" which were the drawn-brass shotgun shells of the period. Some of those guns reportedly need truly low-pressure shells (down in the 6,000 psi range) for safe & regular operation. Is that accurate?

Damascus: That violin-cased gun is over-the-top cool(!) as is the thumb-lever Purdey!
Posted By: Replacement Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/11/22 02:17 AM
Re twist vs Damascus, my Brummie hammer gun has twist barrels, so I had wondered about that same question. Can't cite the source, but I remember reading some reports of Brit proof testing back in the day that demonstrated quality twist barrels were as strong as Damascus. Might have something on the other computer, but that is 100 miles from here. Can look when I get back.
Posted By: greener4me Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/11/22 10:00 AM
"but without rushing, I can probably reload..in under 2 seconds ..." .....er, ahem ??
Posted By: Chantry Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/11/22 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by greener4me
"but without rushing, I can probably reload..in under 2 seconds ..." .....er, ahem ??

Ok, maybe 3 or 4 seconds, but still not much slower than a double with only extractors
Posted By: mc Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/11/22 04:31 PM
Damascus,,..i have two greener a&d action guns marked brazier under the bottom plate one 19000 number 1878,79 the other is 8 or 10 years newer it made me wonder if greener ever bothered to,make a&d action guns in house .
Posted By: Entropy Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/12/22 09:09 PM
A humble “Hello” and a first post.

I was bit by the hammergun and S/S bug about 30 years ago. Picked up a few examples, a few of which are still in my possession. Hunted quail behind pointers mostly. Children, baseball, aging dogs...put it on the back burner for a bit. Kids are grown, we have a 9 week old GSP, and I’m ready to pick up where I left off. This time with a few sons to enjoy it all with.

Anyhow, a very working quality H. Clarke & Sons 16ga. Sleeved, reproofed for nitro with a box of Eley I acquired when I first got it many years ago. Many memories attached and hopefully more to come.

I appreciate all the fine pics and shared camaraderie.

Best

Jim

[Linked Image from iili.io]
make image url
Posted By: mc Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/12/22 11:18 PM
Nice gun I used some of those shells in 12 ga. Chasing chucker with my wc Scott side lock
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/12/22 11:42 PM
Sorry - not paying attention.
Re: pattern welded strength, a detailed summary of the Birmingham Proof House Trial Report of 1891 is here, along with actual tensile testing of pattern welded barrels
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit

Vintage barrel steel strength
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

Damascus quality is best assessed based on the overall quality of the gun
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YJxP1k3PzmtmrG1HEGxd8X6g0-1GL0KNY8WMIMkdKr0/edit
Posted By: lagopus Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 02:25 PM
Those Eley cartridges in that box are 1960's vintage. Clarke of Leicester in England in business until 1955. I have a single 28 bore made by them around the turn of the century. Living only about 40 miles or so north of Leicester I come across examples from time to time. Nice clean gun and welcome. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Parabola Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 02:36 PM
Welcome to the forum, Entropy, nice gun.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 02:42 PM
Drew: Thank you for that. I remember going through most (if not all) of the above articles several years ago (now 20-plus?) and mentally summarizing said data for my own satisfaction (before finally going off to shoot my then laminated-steel 20-bore). Trying to digest it all again takes serious concentration (as the data continues to be all over the map, with the reference points being very hard to pin down). Best I can do to summarize is to state that the 1891 Proof House tests had the very best Silver Steel Damascus tubes going to 4,200 grains of shot and powder before any "rejecting bulge" appeared. By comparison, the twist barrels went to only 2,400 grains of shot and powder. Now... what that means as far as comparative pressures is anyone's guess (I'm fairly certain I found something to convince me then that... everything would be allright, but damned if I can remember exactly what that was now). After much pondering, I seem to remember a translated (from German) table summarizing the respective failure pressures of Krupp "Fluss" Steel to the other steel (and damascus) tubes of the period (the middle 1890s?). That table had a later addendum (possibly from Winchester?) also showing Winchester's Nickel Steel and then Winchester's 1930 Proof steel. I distinctly now remember the burst-strength numbers being in the mid-60,000 to lower 70,000 psi range for both early steel and damascus tubes, 90,000 psi for Krupp "Fluss" steel, 110,000 psi for the later Winchester Nickel Steel, and then finally a claimed 130,000 psi(!) for the 1930 Winchester Proof steel.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 02:57 PM
Entropy,
Welcome to the forum. In my opinion you will also have a great deal of joy raising the GSP pup and watching its progress as you train it. I am jealous of you for what you have coming ahead with your boys and new pup.
Mike.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 02:59 PM
Short version Lloyd
These numbers are all for gun barrel, non-heat treated steel
Twist and Crolle Damascus tensile strength is about 55,000 psi
Winchester Standard Ordnance and other "cold rolled" Bessemer/Decarbonized steels and AISI 1020 are similar in strength at about 60,000 psi
c. 1900 Belgian sourced “Fluid Steel” used by all the U.S. makers (Cockerill, Siemens-Martin & Krupp Open Hearth) and AISI 1030 are similar in strength at 75,000 - 85,000 psi
Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 might be a little stronger
AISI 1040 (and modified), Vickers, Cockerill Acier Universel or Acier Special & Bohler “Blitz” are similar in strength at about 100,000 psi
Winchester Nickel Steel, Marlin “Special Smokeless Steel”, Remington Ordnance Steel, Krupp “Nirosta” (1912 patent NIchtROstender STAhl 21% Chromium / 7% Nickel Stainless Steel introduced in 1913), 4140 Chrome Moly (not used until after 1930s) and 4340 (Chromium, Nickel and Molybdenum) are all similar in strength at > 115,000 psi


It is important to remember tensile strength is only a part of the equation for estimating bursting pressure. If the barrel is made of Twist with a 50,000 psi tensile strength, that does NOT mean that it will withstand a 10,000 psi load by a factor of 5.

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

Barlow’s refers to a pipe capped at both ends with a static pressure (a pressure cylinder). Shotgun barrels are not designed to be pressure vessels as one end is open and the pressure rises and falls quickly.


And this regarding the Proof House Trial
The five barrels tied in Phase 2 failed at 12.5 times the Definitive Proof load or 11.34 Drams with 2.82 oz. shot. It should be noted that the 12th barrel (because of ties) Foreign Pointille’ Twist failed at 5.77 times DP and the 13th (last) Foreign Four Rod Crolle’ failed at 5.74 times Definitive Proof.
The test barrels however had uniform dimensions, without chambers cut, and much thicker wall thicknesses that used on shotgun barrels.

A reassuring comment in Sporting Guns and Gunpowders regarding an additional study published in The Field June 6, 1891 by Horatio F. Phillips, a “staff experimenter” with The Field
"These experiments serve to show what a very large margin of strength there is in a good gun barrel, when ordinary charges are used. The (Damascus) barrels which gave way earliest...had withstood the strains of…about four times as great as the regulation proof; while the steel barrels (Siemens-Martin and English “Superior Barrel Steel”) were tested…with charges averaging nearly five times as much as the ordinary proof-charge.
Although the steel barrels showed the greater amount of endurance, the strength of the Damascus was so much in excess of all ordinary requirements that no fear need be felt of their giving way when the work is properly done."

To quote John Brindle’s summary of the Trial:
“Thus steel had proved stronger than Damascus in this test, but the strength of both was such that this did not matter one bit, such was the margin of safety in a barrel of either material of suitable dimensions and without flaws. And it was the purpose of regular proof tests to find those flaws if they existed.”
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 03:07 PM
Appreciate it Dr. Drew, that brings it all back now.
Posted By: damascus Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/13/22 07:04 PM
mc. This is the only Advertisement for Joseph Brazier I came across in my searches, it also states Actions and Barrels this is a huge pointer that the Birmingham and Black country gun manufactures were able to supply any type of gun and quality you desired.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Entropy Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/14/22 01:46 AM
Thanks all. Appreciate the warm welcome.

The 16ga is indeed a joy to shoot. No issues over a good dog who holds to flush and retrieve. Very gentlemanly! Looking forward to the new dog.

The Eley’s (and another brand same era who’s name escapes me) sit on the shelf, they’re too pretty to shoot. I am still working on my supply of RST’s.

The others in my possession are a E&G Higham 12ga boxlock, a “no-name” .410 bore folding gamekeepers single shot, and a Cooper and Goodman 10 bore hammergun. The Cooper and Goodman is in excellent condition, but has fairly pitted bores. I have never shot it even with BP. It locks up solid, and has some beautiful wood. I will post some pics with proofmarks perhaps tomorrow here to see if anyone here could lend a hand with additional info.

Again, appreciate the welcome and shared interests.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/14/22 03:19 PM
Entropy: Welcome! If fine guns & dogs are your preferred pastimes, then you'll find a wealth of knowledge here.
Posted By: mc Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/14/22 03:33 PM
Damascus.thats more then I have found I contacted greener he said he could give information on my guns but never said anything about brazier.i do know greener was selling a&d action guns very early after the pat.mine is around 200 use number
Posted By: Gitano Re: Hammergun questions... - 05/14/22 08:52 PM
I use hammer guns almost exclusive for upland and water fowling. We enjoy all actions and hunt with breech open hammer down for pass shooting and breech open hammers at half cocked for flush.
[img]https://www.flickr.com/photos/38708782@N02/52071765260/in/dateposted-public/[/img]
Posted By: vam5067 Re: Hammergun questions... - 07/20/22 04:58 PM
So I just acquired my first hammergun. Not sure if hammers are rebounding or not. Any resources for disassembling a backaction? I plan to put tiny metal parts in my ultrasonic cleaner with some Ballistol and scrub the wood with a toothbrush and Old English.

Thoughts/suggestions?

Regards,
Vince
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Hammergun questions... - 07/20/22 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by vam5067
So I just acquired my first hammergun. Not sure if hammers are rebounding or not. Any resources for disassembling a backaction? I plan to put tiny metal parts in my ultrasonic cleaner with some Ballistol and scrub the wood with a toothbrush and Old English.

If your hammers when down do not contact the detinator and there is no half cock, they're rebounding....Geo
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