found this...

https://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/06/barrel-making-steel-barrels.html

note the last paragraph...

The rise of smokeless powders also had a lot to do with the decline of damascus barrels. Smokeless powders generate a lot more force than black powders. Smokeless powders also burn along the length of the barrel since they're slower burning than black powders, which mainly burn at the breech end and blow out an unburnt quantity out of the muzzle. Many damascus barrels couldn't withstand such pressures and those that could needed a lot more time and effort to manufacture. Hence steel barrels became more and more popular as smokeless powder became prevalent.

does this support my contention that it is dangerous to shoot smokeless powder in twist steel shotgun barrels?

and, doc drew, your input is particularly soliciated...

ED, As is often the case, it all depends. This Parker 20 GA was manufactured in the year 1900 and was used heavily by the lady that owned it shooting factory modern ammo.
My dad bought it and gave it to me when I was about 15 years old and I never used black powder in it. I still shoot it a little each year just for old times sake and it is still the fastest handling shotgun I have ever hunted with.


I can only speak for Parker Damascus barrels, but mine are just fine. I will pass this little beauty on to my daughter one day so it can keep on hunting.

Give it a rest Ed. You have flogged this horse way too much.

I’ve never asked a question on here regarding safe pressures. OTOH I have read a lot. Double Gun Journal. Posts here. Various authors. And I have arrived at my own opinions and sense of what I’m prepared to risk. I would suggest you do the same. You might find it helpful to become familiar with various European county’s proof laws. Not a bad starting point.

It’s clear from your posts on the subject, you are looking for the easy answer, likely to be able to quote it in your gun ads.

back, not asking about pressures here...

am asking for your reaction to the information presented above, which suggests that it is not safe to shoot smokeless loads in twist steel barrels...

and as for my sales advertising, i rarely sell guns with twist steel barrels...and when i do, i always suggest that the gun be fired with black powder loads only...

crs, your 20 ga parker gh looks like a lovely old gun...

but some words of caution...

the most recent barrel failure that i am aware of, is a 12 ga parker gh with damascus barrels...shooter was in the middle of a round of skeet, when the left barrel failed...

fortunately neither shooter nor squad mates were injured...

there are better guns to pass on to family...

I think Jack Rowe had some wise words when he said in one of his tutorials to make it short "was he using reloads?" Had the chambers been extended from original? If the answer is yes to either question Not a leg to stand on.
My personal view would you expect your grand parents or great grand parents to run Marathons, Skeet!

Cha - ching!!

Ed has seen the excellent graphs posted here by Doc Hause, and others, that show beyond any doubt that the pressure curves of smokeless can match those of black ........... same peaks, at the same place in the barrel, almost identical. Ed says he isn't asking about pressures here. What in hell does he think blows up barrels if it isn't pressure?

The rise of smokeless powders also had a lot to do with the decline of damascus barrels. Smokeless powders generate a lot more force than black powders. Smokeless powders also burn along the length of the barrel since they're slower burning than black powders, which mainly burn at the breech end and blow out an unburnt quantity out of the muzzle. Many damascus barrels couldn't withstand such pressures and those that could needed a lot more time and effort to manufacture. Hence steel barrels became more and more popular as smokeless powder became prevalent...

am asking for your reaction to the information presented above, which suggests that it is not safe to shoot smokeless loads in twist steel barrels...

anyone?

Ed, in tests done by the Birmingham Proof House (or maybe London), back when fluid steel was in the midst of taking over the barrel market, it was demonstrated pretty conclusively that damascus barrels were at least as strong, and most likely stronger, than fluid steel. The fluid steel barrels tended to fail before the Damascus. Today there are 1000s and 1000s of Damascus barreled gun being use, fired and no one is losing eyes or fingers. It's about educating oneself. Try it sometime.

The decline of Damascus likely has more to do with the 100 year long PR/misinformation campaign by the industry in order to get people to buy new guns. Even today, you for example, are propagating unfounded speculation as fact. Go to any shotgun forum that isn't comprised of members as well informed as the members here and it is a non stop barrage of how dangerous Damascus is.

Perhaps, the simple and best solution for you is to just remove yourself from the equation. Stop buying and selling Damascus.

We used to have to read your misinformed blather about colour case hardening. Only took about 10 years of metaphorically beating you about the head to get you off that subject. Please don't subject us to another 10 years of idiocy on Damascus barrels.

It was cost and cost alone that doomed Damascus,twist,barrels Damascus barrels are incredibly labor intensive

Edd,do us all a favor read Sherman bell's finding out for myself.you will get all the answers you need.

As mc said, it cost way more to make Damascus barrels. That, and American manufactures wanting people to think Damascus barrels were unsafe so they'd buy a new gun with steel barrels. Being unsafe was nothing more than a advertising ploy. Why is it the English never stopped proof testing them ?
This must just be a troll acting up again. I can't believe you're so incompetent that you can't find testing and reports that find Damascus barrels are safe.

I always thought DuPont brought out its Bulk Smokeless for this very reason.

points well made...

but then there is reality...

smokeless powder burns slower than black, resulting in higher pressures in the thinnest part of a barrel...which may cause twist barrels of low quality to fail...

ammo manufacturers print warnings on their ammo boxes telling us not to use their products in guns with twist steel barrels...why do they ALL provide that warning?

as old as they are, many twist steel barrels are of unknown quality...

and every now and then, one hears about a twist barrel failing...much more frequently than fluid steel barrels...why is that?

and, from a collectors perspective, the number of old twist steel guns is finite...as in, they aint makin those anymore...shooting old twist steel guns lessens their condition...if you must shoot an old twist steel gun at all, then why not do it with the ammo of the period in which it was made...as in black powder...

Ed please post your data on the failure rate of twist ,Damascus barrels compared to steel or cast metal barrels and the root causation.

and as for testing anything...it is only a sample based on the examples selected for study...and is not all inclusive...

whatever testing has been done visavis twist barrels, it represents the test results of a select sample of barrels and may or may not be inclusive enough to risk damaging a fine old gun or injuring a shooter or spectators...

so, why take the risks? especially since we have a plethora of vintage guns with safe fluid steel barrels to shoot...

mc, unlike doc drew i am not a collector of data...hence i have nothing to publish...

much of my beliefs re twist barrels are based on cautious common sense derived from what i have seen and heard over the past 40 years or so...

neither you nor others are required to agree with me...but then, dont say you were not warned...

and here is what the NRA has to say on the subject...

https://www.nrafamily.org/content/gun-safety-damascus-barreled-shotguns-2/

and then there is this...

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/twist-steel-barrels.215369/

and this...

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/damascus-barreled-shotguns-are-safe-to-shoot/

So if I understand you correctly, you aren't asking questions here ( as you had previously suggested).....you are attempting to convince us that Damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot.

The NRA article is simply exaggerated fearmongering and nothing in the other two doesn't equally apply to any fluid steel vintage barrel.

Ed, don't buy, sell or shoot Damascus barreled guns. And leave us alone. You never convinced anyone regarding your BS about CCH and none of us need to be convinced by your Damascus barrel fearmongering.

back, if you wish to shoot smokeless powder cartridges in guns with twist steel barrels, that is your prerogative...

but, pls dont git awl pissy, just because i think you are taking unnecessary risks and eroding the condition of somewhat rare guns...

bet the weather is lovely up there at the moment...

About as nice as it can be Ed. Likely pretty good where you are as well.

yep...

usually gets hot down here in early august...usually go to ns, but perhaps may venture up to hudsons bay....

Edd you edited your post, you had claimed facts about Damascus barrel burst.you are a turd in the punchbowl

70 degrees here. No clouds and a light breeze. I’m working around the house so it’s perfect. Although getting close to beer o’clock.