Good evening colleagues. I was the successful bidder on a French side-lever 16GA hammer shotgun, which arrived today. The auction house described it as follows:

French side lever side by side double barrel shotgun made in France by Marquis Coirrer in Paris circa the late 19th century. 29 - 1/2" twist steel 16 gauge barrels marked on concave rib marked "MNF MARQUIS COIRRER succ BOULEVARD DES ITALIENS PARIS" with bead front sight and extractors. External hammer, full coverage vignette engraved action with side opener lever and double triggers. Deluxe checkered walnut English grip stock with diamond carving behind locks with heel and toe checkered butt with plugged entrance hole (probably for weight addition). Matching checkered walnut splinter forearm with push button release and coin silver diamond inlay. CONDITION: 40% remaining twist pattern with action worn to a silvery brown patina. Wood has traces of original finish with usage dings and marks. Pitted bores with good mechanics. A great gun for restoration. DLM Barrel Length: 29 - 1/2" FFL Status: Antique Gauge: 16 Manufacturer: Marquis Coirrer Model: SXS Serial Number: 1043.

The link is below, which includes the auction pics.
https://www.proxibid.com/A-MARQUIS-...E-HAMMER-SHOTGUN/lotInformation/69310248

I took more pics today, bur I am not sure which application to use to post them. The gun looks to be in good shape for its age. The barrel flats are marked Leopold Bernard and on the other side annotate work, which i could not make up and the word Paris. There is 2 groups of numbers marked on the underside of the bottom rib, but they don't match the number 1043 that is marked on the action flats. The flats and barrels don't have any other marks or proof marks I could see. Hammer are rebounding hammers. Side-Lever work perfectly and the gun locks tight. The stock has the usual for its age nicks and dings, but it looks solid and with a very nice figure to it. Barrels ring true and they have some pitting, but not too bad. I am not sure whether they are twist steel or damascus. It looks they need a good clean-up. Some goes for the lock plates because they have some dark spots, as you can see from the pick in the link, especially the left side plate. The whole action trigger guard, hammers, side-level, and the stock tow and heel metal clips are engraved with small "english" scroll.

What impressed me and made me bid on the gun was its apparent quality, being a hammer gun, being a 16Ga that I love, the overall engraving and how the action is filled in a rounded shape That shape is also followed by the side plates. And all that at a period with computes, CNC machines etc.

I would like to have the barrels and the guns evaluated and then debating whether to do a "sympathetic" cleanup/restoration, or a full refinishing, including barrel re-browing, stock refining, etc. In the past I have used Gunter Pfrommer, and Kirk Merrington, both with great results. What are your thoughts and what would you suggest for this project?

Note: I can post more pics, if you help me how to figure out how to do that. It has been a while since I posted pics here.
Thank you in advance.
BillK

A few preliminary thoughts. I've searched "Marquis de Courier" (I believe from the blurry rib this is the spelling) on French web-sites and nothing comes up so far.



Blvd des Italiens was a prestigious Paris address. I suspect Courier was an "Armurier" - a gun merchant; Armurier's all over France sometimes assembled guns using parts from Paris or Saint-Etienne and put their names on them if they had enough prestigous clientel.

SNC? needs clarification. Normally "SN" will be "Société nationale". Might this be SNCF, i.e the French national railroad - Société nationale des chemins de fer français?

I suspect also that the gun (or at least the barrels) was made by legendary Parisian barrel and gun-maker Leopold Bernard, the gold standard of French barrel makers in the 19th century. Bernard always dated his barrels...there should be a date on there somewhere. At least by 1881 some claim he was sometimes using Belgian barrels blanks.

The barrels look to be stub-twist Damascus. (Even as early as the 1860's France and Belgium far outstripped UK in the decorative patterns of their Damascus. Stub-twist remained the UK normal up to about 1865. So it's a little surprising to find this pattern on a presumably 1880's gun. Dr. Hause can comment further). Standard French barrel length by the late 1890's was 27.5". The fact that these are 29.5" makes me think this is an earlier gun. Side-levers are rare in French guns.

The chamber length should be on the barrels. by the 1890's at least most Saint-Etienne guns were chambered for 65mm (or 6.5 in Saint-Etienne only)..i.e. 2 1/2". But there are a lot of guns in the 1880's that had longer chambers. It will be black-powder proofed unless reproofed.

The Barrel bore should also be stamped on the barrels in mm.

We need pics of the proofs and all the marks. I don't know Parisian proof-house stamps as well as Saint-Etienne but photos of the proof marks and other markings on the gun would be a good place to start. Get a free account on imgur.com. You can then download the photos and post the code here.

If Leopold Bernard made the barrels, you have a blue chip. Will look into this further tomorrow. But that sir is a very attractive gun!

Gene Williams

Thank for the informative post Gene. I measured the barrels and they are indeed 29.5". The barrel flat is clearly marked Leopold Bernard with cartouche to the left and right of his name. The other barrel flat has 2 words with a cartouche on the left and right of the words. I think he first word says "CANNONIER" then a mark like a star and then the word "PARIS". Nothing else is marked in the barrel flats. The underrib has the following numbers stamped to it. 1st set of number closest to the flats is 28949, second set of numbers is 1880, 3rd set on numbers in front of the barrel loop where the forend catches 25236, further down 1043 (serial number matching the action flat number. No proof marks or other markings on the barrels I will try to set up an account with imgur.com tomorrow and will post the pics I have taken so far. Anyone who can provide additional information about the gun, would be most welcome.Thank you in advance.

1880 will likely be the date of the barrels. The "Cannonier - Paris" (barrel-maker Paris) is likely an "advertisement" of sorts for Leopold Bernard. French guns always had these with pet names for their steel, etc. Once you get detailed photos posted here, there are a couple of French contributors who can chime in and we will make progress. We have rarely commented on a Paris proofed gun. Very interesting I must say.

A very very nice find indeed, in way too many respects to stay calm ... My congratulations!

I'm afraid I'm no expert on French guns albeit I own a few, including an underlever hammergun; but my preferred system is side lever (of which I only own a German Drilling).

Cheers,
Jani

The barrels are Plain Twist, which Bernard was known to make
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit

By the mid-1800s the tube makers were having trouble sourcing horseshoe stubs, and mostly transitioned to Plain Twist
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BdbWHfJmr2EyvzcPybid7pwlEliH6m9pr1LxMESM3W0/edit

Good morning. Can someone please tell me how to upload pics? Thank you.

Agree with Gene on the Courier spelling on the barrel. As noted above, we don't get too many examples of French guns, especially proofed in Paris, that are that old. looking forward to more pics including whatever proofmarks there are.

Here are a couple of pics from the Morphy Auction site forwarded by Bill. I've sent a PM offering to post pics if he'll email them to me.

Bill, follow these directions:

1) go to this site: https://imgur.com/ - open a free account. Your account with the name you select will appear here:
2) Click on your account:
3) Click on "Images"
3) Click on "add images"
4) A box will appear. Drag your image to the box from your desktop
5) It will appear in your library. Click on the image
6) a series of codes will appear...click on "copy" on this code (for messages boards and forums)
7) just go to your message and paste code in your text.
Voila!!

Wow, BillK;

That is a beautiful gun. It must have been stunning when it was made.

Here are the pics:




















[img]https://i.imgur.com/jtvA8UV.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/DWSIB3X.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/28vk7wa.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ZbD4NO1.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/gDD9QaC.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/losfiLj.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/1uDC9PK.jpg[/img]

Not Twist. They are Bernard, but I can't confirm the grade.
Not "Rose pattern" Bernard II.

Strange...no proof marks at all. Wonder why?

there is another bernard barreled gun on gunsinternational....seller originally had two offered. seller doesn't favor us with many photos of the proofs, but you can clearly see that the barrel flats and tubes are marked in quite similar fashion to the subject gun.

so few guns seem to be marked by paris proofing that it makes comparisons difficult....but i seem to recall a comment (somewhere...) that many parisian guns bore no government proofs.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ascus-barrels.cfm?gun_id=101662503#lg-15

best regards,

tom

Lovely long water-table. Looks like 1859?? Or is it 1880?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

1880.....

I just hate to use those small cellular device platforms. They are so restricting..... I couldn't full view the image till I access thru my laptop.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

We are so used to Saint-Etienne and their proof marks and have seen so few Paris guns from this time period that I was thinking that perhaps the Paris proof house didn't stamp their guns...which sort of negates the whole procedure.

The date of the barrels is definitely 1880. One of the other numbers either 25230 or 28943 is probably a Bernard number.

Here is a little clearer (enhanced) pic of 25230 number from photo Bill sent.



And Bill, for giggles, I would like clarification on the SNC? after Courier.

Edit, from the linked previous line on Bernard barrels from the Leopold Bernard table by "Wildcattle," 28943 from 1880 would be the Bernard SN: - he was making about 600 barrels a year plus or minus at the time:

24759 1873 Faure Lepage 608
25605 1874 Faure Lepage 647
27268 1877 677
29601 1881 584
30685 1882 Guyot 658

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...;Main=27682&Number=494017#Post494017



Is WildCattle still with us?


>>Re: the #1 in 1832.
Of course I don't have that (I wish).
I know he started in 1832, so I made a leap of faith that he started at #1. Could be 100 or 1000. 1000 could work as it is pretty linear.
That would reduce the first averages to the 200's.
It is also interesting to see the evolution of makers during that time, BTW. Note the absence of Gastine who might have made their own barrels.
WC-<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...rds=7554.1864&Search=true#Post524435


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Haven't heard from him for several years. I hope he didn't get burnt out by the fires in California the last few years. He was always swamped with work on the ranch. I asked him in the English/French gun term vocabulary line if he should be called "swamped cattle," "bovine de la marais"? He replied ""Bétail enlisé".

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=485712&page=1

Here is a very interesting article in French on French gun-makers in Paris in the 19th century.
http://chrisferon.free.fr/blog-articles/paris-ancienne-capitale-armurerie.php

Here is a Leopold Bernard barrel with the French Parisian proof-house stamps along with the bore size. This is what should be on the gun.

Yeah, but I would have to see the date, but French proofmarks were not compulsory since 1885 & the Paris Proof facility came online in say 1897?? From what I read from multiple sources, the makers depended on Bernard, who was noted as making 2000 tubes a year, to set the tone & then the marks advertised on their wares so to convince the average French hunter that they were purchasing a quality piece on par with any other country.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Saint-Étienne was the only game in town during the period of the subject longarm.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Actually Bernard set the bar high for every tube maker including those from the Little British Isles. He was copied profusely & being copied is the highest order of flattery, or something along that vein?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Wildcattle's chart has him making 600 barrels a year plus or minus.

And you are right about the Parisian proof house - there wasn't one in 1878. Saint-Etienne famous barrel maker Didier-Drevet complained mightily about it. I'll post again this article from an evaluation of the 1878 Paris Universelle Exposition by Didier-Drevet in the Saint-Etienne newspaper...

http://www.memoireetactualite.org/presse/42LEREPUBLIC/PDF/1878/42LEREPUBLIC-18781128-P-0002.pdf




My rough translation:

Here is the report of M. Didier-Drevet, master barrel maker, sent by his colleagues to the universal Exposition:

Monsieur the Editor: As barrel-maker I was a part of the delegation of gun-maker workers who were sent to Paris last October.

That delegation, you will recall, was designated by the gun makers following a meeting organized by the workers themselves at the invitation of the representative for the Loire.

It is under these circumstances that I went to the 1978 Exposition and I consider that it is my obligation to communicate to my constituents some observations that I can recall about the part of arms making with which I'm most familiar, the barrels.

I regret that the passage of time and the difficulty of visiting all the displays does not allow me to analyze in detail all the products of each exposition, but I have seen enough for me to form an informed opinion of the current state of the fabrication of barrels in each country represented at the exposition.

I cannot speak for all the barrel makers of St-Etienne to the Stephanois, each of whom whom knows what it takes to make something work.

It is sufficient for me to state that we were represented by three companies who have an old and excellent reputation and which this exposition was one of the most important and one which is a judgment of the value of their arms from the the point of view of the barrel. However, if they are behind in hunting products, they seem in contrast to be very advanced in combat barrel making.

Their displays confirm that their carbine barrels are made in an irreproachable manner.

Besides the specimens which accompanied the barrels for showing the diverse phases of barrel making, the American barrel makers did not show a method of drilling useful for our manufacturers. It would be too long and too arduous.

The barrel is made in the middle of a steel sleeve 25-30 centimeters long. This sleeve is founded in a hollow manner to avoid losing material, it is then forged on a single spindle chuck machine in order to rationalize and equalize the surfaces and then stretched on the interior and exterior on a rolling machine in different passes in a way to obtain the desired length and at the same time in a conical form which is right for forming a barrel.

This has shown to have, according to me, two marked advantages: it involves a great economy of material and of machining; and stamping metal by the double action of the rolling machine and of the single spindle chuck mandrel machine gives it a toughness and a resistance to all tests.

It is possible that the mandrel rolling presents some practical difficulties, but it doesn't seem to me probable that these difficulties could outweigh the advantages that one finds by the process, such as the economy of material used, of hand work and of tooling, and of the quality of the metal.

It would be desirable if our large factories in the basin of the Loire, which have such powerful means, might try this process of fabrication; They are able certainly with little study and of perseverance to produce at a very good price barrels for war and barrels for hunting. They are enriching therefore the local industry by a new branch of production and they give to the Stephanoise gun-making industry the means to reconquer the export market which they lost because of not being able to produce marketable barrels.

English exports: I have noted with surprise that the English barrel makers do not have special expositions such as other factories of Europe. I cannot explain their abstention; in any case I can judge their knowledge and inspect the barrels exhibited in the display windows of the manufacturers.

Their barrels are not distinguished by a variety of types. Their barrels are in general of damascus of a large design of which the appearance is not at all seductive. They are besides strong and well made, well turned and certainly well polished; but there are some qualities of care owing to which one obtains them everywhere and puts up the price.

One sees in their display cases some rifles costing 770 Fr of which the barrels are ordinary damascus and seem according to all reports to resemble those being used on St-Etienne rifles costing 300 fr.

Whatever the demand that one professes in certain circles for English long-guns. I do not see that that preference is justified by the value of the barrels and I maintain that our stephanois barrel makers are capable of producing a better set of barrels as perfect in the execution and more appealing.

Those who have a predilection for English manufacture do not realize the weight of the gun, and, how that question of weight has great importance for the barrel maker. A variance of several fractions of grammes changes all the conditions for execution. In order to make a barrel at the same time light, solid and well, one must use a fine art, taking care and precautions which repeat themselves on each operation, and, more, running the risk of the tasks which are larger the lighter the piece.

Currently all the barrels that are being ordered from Saint Etienne in caliber 12 are measured in a weight of 15 or 16 grams while in England they tolerate up to two kilos.

It is the style in France in certain circles to see with rose colors glasses everything which comes from England. It is a very bad habit which will pass like many others.

Exposition Belgian: I have not analyzed the exposition of M. Leopold Bernard. This house is known throughout the world and It's necessary to agree that it is successfully supporting its old reputation. However, when one compares this work with that of St-Etienne, one quickly recognizes that the gap is of little importance; that in reality the contrast which exists between the two expositions is more about the abundance of products and the richness of the display than in the superiority of execution. The only thing missing from our body of barrel work, which would equal that of Paris, is some additional installations; of better rolling mills, better made and more appropriate to the work of the barrel making, ovens to braze and polishers. Our methods of production are far too primative and our products suffer from the lack of means; but it is not a question of organization which might be solve this, and allow us to be able to deliver our production across the board.

For everything which touches the area of the barrel making, our infrastructure possesses all the elements; our forges, our dressers without boasting one can say have little comparison in the whole world.

Without wanting to diminish the merits of the house of Leopold Bernard, one must recognize that he is operating at an advantage because of his location.

For a long time his manufactures were encourgesd and supported by the Parisian gunmakers, who needed to have a prestigious barrel from Paris in order to have the rest of the gun which was made abroad accepted.

It's true that the beautiful movement of egos was close to being extinguished because most of the long guns which I was given to look at in the display cases of the Parisian exposition were mounted with Belgian barrels and even barrels that were decidedly mediocre.

I visited in detail two of the display cases. I will abstain from citing the name of the two exhibiters, but I picked up ours and the brand names of the barrels and I could, if necessary, justify what i'm going to say in advance.

In spite of the long guns which were in the two display cases, I only found one barrel legally proof-marked and it was from Liege.

All the others were without a brand name, and of such of those I figure that six of the barrels were Belgian made.

It's true to say that there is not a proof house in Paris. The government has not judged it necessary to establish one because there is not a single maker of barrels in Paris. It is this state of affairs which facilitates fraud and which I brought to the attention of the Paris Exposition. One can bring in barrels from Liege which have not been proofed; One can decorate them with a proper mark/name and one can then babtise them as Paris barrels. I know very well that M. Leopold Bernard, who is careful about his reputation and who, decidedly sells very expensive products, but without submitting his barrels to a serious proof test.

But as for the gun makers who buy these barrels without a proof mark abroad why would they do it differently?

In any case it's not legal neither for one method or another. There cannot be two laws in France, one for Paris, the other for St-Etienne.

Here is the decree of 22 April 1868 applied to us.

The decree says:

"The barrel makers, merchants and workers cannot sell any barrel without it having been proofed and stamped by the accepted proof mark, a fine of 330 fr for the first time and a penalty of double that for each case after and the confiscation of the barrels which are put on sale."

The terms of the law are clear. How then can one allow to be spread out in the middle of the Exposition products which would be seized if they were in our city, at the frontier as always, by agents richly rewarded to make the law respected?

The jury of the Exposition could recompense, with their eyes closed, the gun-makers of Paris and shower gold medals on these barrels breaking the proof house decree. But the government cannot have two weights and two measures.

It is not admissible that the Stephanoise barrel makers are stringent in their proofing when their competition can spare the allowance and the risks that they bring.

It is sufficient to signal this state of affairs to the Government so that the law will apply everywhere. And in closing I recall, in conclusion, that the Americans and the English do not have special expositions for barrel makers, that the Belgians don't produce anything but mediocre products and that Paris and Saint-Etienne alone are left standing

.....Our production of die cast tooling involves every facet of barrel production and in the near future, will surely be top ranked.

.....I have the honor, sir editor, to be your devoted constituent.

Didier Drevet
Master barrel maker, member of the com-
mission for oversight of the proof-
house of Saint-Etienne.

I was just quoting a German source for effect.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I must work on my French. Too, if WC has gone on to the >>Happy Hunting Grounds<<, I need to visit you & stand you a drink.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Who knows, with Bernard's reputation, maybe his mark served as a psuedo proofmark & satisfied the craft??? Maybe the Paris Proof Facility was under his umbrella???

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

In France, there is "Paris" and there is the "Hoi Paloi" unwashed - which is the rest of France. Small town French mayors cannot tax, cannot do anything constructive in their towns and villages without running it through the Parisian bureaucracy. There's the famous story of a village mayor, who after Macron was elected, to save money cut down the official photograph (which showed boy Macron looking "powerful" with hands on his desk) to fit in the frame used with Holland. He was arrested and investigated for insulting the President (he who was 14 years old when seduced by a 39 year old with 5 kids).

Unfortunately a number of francophone African countries have adopted the Louis XIV centrist model as well as the European Union to their detriment. I suspect this Parisian central-government arrogance and indeed corruption was behind the Parisian arquebusiers being able to get away with it for so long.

I would not doubt it a bit & concur as the West side of Afrika has the same arrogant aire from time to time.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And don't forget the Belgian enterprising individuals(Rubber Plant owners, etc.), and their ruling sect, as they too are to blame for the situation in Afrika.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you gentlemen. All that is very fascinating. I did not know Bernard was so famous and influential barrel maker. I have a 20 gauge Gastinne Renette shotgun with Bernard barrels also, which I had posted in this forum a few years back.
What would you do with a gun like that? Would you undertake a complete restoration, refinishing the barrels, wood, etc.? or leave it as is? If it is all in good shape and the barrels are sound, would you enjoy shooting it, using light loads, (i.e. RST shells or similar?). which gun artists would you recommend?
BillK

That Bill, is frankly beyond my ken. I shoot my guns. But this one is pretty neat, the only question being what would you shoot in it? With no proof marks, you can assume it was made for black-powder. I've always assumed low pressure modern shot-shells could be used in black powder guns but again...defer to the vast experience on this board. Whatever, it is quite an excellent purchase.

But at this point the chamber length itself is not clear and that is something I'd be interested in. We found references to chambers in French shotguns in the 1880's as long as 90mm (3.5"). And are you sure of the bore size? and barrel wall thickness?

I intent to hire the services of a well qualified gunsmith to evaluate the gun and answer all these questions. If it deemed worthy of shooting, I would only shoot it with light type shot loads, like RST shot shells. I am not looking to shot it extensively, but on a special occasion, it would be a wonderful experience. I would love for the forum members to recommend me some of the gunsmiths, wood finishers, and damascus/twist barrel refinishers whom they have great experience with using their services. Personally, I have used the services of Kirk Merrington and Gunter Pfrommer in the past, both with great results. I am just curious to find out given the fact of its origin (French), age, and type of this gun. BillK

I see everyone else finally picked up what I'd forgotten (or maybe never knew): There was no Paris proofhouse prior to 1897.

Salut Argo44
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20no/a%20neumann%20freres%20fr.htm

https://www.auction.fr/_fr/lot/a-beautiful-cased-pair-of-target-pistols-by-coirier-3111355

La maison Coirier (fondée sous l'appellation d'origine Marquis Coirier Suc. T et F) située au 4 Boulevard des Italiens à Paris fut fabriquant et détaillant d'armes fines depuis la fondation de leur fabrique collective et de leur atelier en 1848. La maison participa, entre autres, à l’exposition Universelle de Paris en 1855 et 1867 ainsi que celle de Londres en 1862.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/EXCELLENT-REVOLVER-380-PROCHE-DU-NEUF-item-3600305.html

A ma connaissance, le banc d'épreuve de Paris a ouvert en 1895. Avant, je doute fort que beaucoup de canonniers et fabricants d'armes descendaient à Saint-Etienne pour éprouver leur production.
Comme l'a dit Pierre Didier, en 1878 il y avait deux poids deux mesures : Paris et le reste de la France.

PS : WC doit aller pas trop mal. Il passe de temps en temps sur Passion la chasse.

>>Ein Dekret vom 7. November 1895 wemächtigate die Pariser Handelskammer gleichfalls eine Beschußanstalt zu gründen. Die Ausführungsbestimmungen, die denen von St. Etienne gleichlautend waren, wurden am 30. Juli 1897 veröffentlicht. <<


So yes you are most correct fab500. So it was a rules change in 1897 & the Paris Proof facility(le banc d'épreuve de Paris) opened its doors in 1895. I am still curious if it was in or close to Bernard's shop?


I am pleased to hear that „Bétail enlisé” is still galloping about......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Both Merrington and Pfrommer are excellent. From the French perspective it might be worthwhile for you to contact J.J. Perodeau about your lovely hammergun since he is French and he might be able to help you historically. JJ Perodeau, Gunmaker, Inc. 711S 263rd West Ave., Sand Springs, OK 74063

Merci comme d'habitude FAB.

Here is a translation of his post:

The firm of COIRIER (note spelling) (founded under the original name of Marquis Coirier Suc. T and F) situated at 4 Boulevard des Italiens in Paris made and finished fine arms from the foundation of their factory and workshop in 1848. The company participated in, among others, the Paris Universal Esposition in 1855 and in 1867 as well as London in 1862.

As far as I know, the Paris proof house opened in i1895. Before, I strongly doubt that a lot of barrel makers and arms makers went down to Saint-Entienne to have their products proofed. As Pierre Dider said, in 1878 there were two different weights and measures, those for Paris and those for the rest of France. (See the article posted above)

PS: Wildcattle is not doing too badly. He spends some time on Passion la Chasse (French gun chat website)

Translation from below:

This is the correct spelling (COIRIER). I haven't been able to find when Francis Marquis gave his workshop to Coirier.

https://i.goopics.net/ofmu7y.jpg

C'est la bonne orthographe. Par contre, je n'ai pas trouvé quand Francis Marquis a cédé son atelier à Coirier.

Sources give that Boutet, Bernard(2000 tubes a year man) and likewise French mechanics had their Qualität marks and these were considered their proofmarks. A double stamp or set of the singular marks were considered re-enforced proof.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here is BBS's Aaron Newcomer on Marquis and Coirier.

https://aaronnewcomer.com/extremely-high-grade-16g-pinfire-shotgun-by-coirier-a-clermont/

Thank you members for all the advise, knowledge, articles, and comments you provided for my post. It is fascinating all the knowledge that exists here.
question: Do you have any recommendations for people who can refinish damascus barrels? Also, what is more period appropriate finish color for damascus barrels for this shotgun? The white/gray finish, or the more brownish finish?
Thank you, Bill K

From what 6 years of research on Reilly - brown. I don't think I've ever seen a French (or British) 1880's gun in black and white. Defer to others.

I've seen black & white but Brown & White seems proper?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Salut ellenbr,
Le banc d'épreuve de Paris était au 129 boulevard de Versailles, la même adresse que Bernard après 1878 .

Translation". "Hi Raimey: How does it feel to be out of Africa and lost in the Elysian Fields of Belgian and German guns? The Paris proof-house was at 129 boulevard de Versailles, the same address as that of Bernard after 1878.

(actually FAB did not write the first sentence but I understood the unspoken communication - what he intended to say). Gene

Salut,
En relisant une réimpression d'un vieux catalogue Martinier-Collin de 1884, je suis tombé sur cette page avec le poinçon du banc de Paris.a+

https://i.goopics.net/jqzq36.jpg

Merci Fab: Translation. Re-reading a reprint of an old Martinier-Collin catalog from 1884, I noticed this page with the stamp of the Paris proof house.

I'm curious about what this means. Paris proof house didn't start stamping guns until 1895, how could the proof marks appear in an 1884 catalog?

Fab. Could you please offer an opinion?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - translation - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Je suis curieux de savoir ce que cela signifie. S'il n'a commencé à emboutir des armes qu'en 1895, comment les marques d'épreuve ont-elles pu apparaître dans un catalogue de 1884?

Fab, Pourriez-vous s'il vous plaît offrir une opinion?

Salut Argo,

Ces vieux catalogues sont sûrement le chemin le plus court vers la vérité. Ils ont traversé des décennies pour nous transmettre des informations.
Il faut toujours être prudent avec la littérature contemporaine : la vérité du moment ne sera pas forcément celle du lendemain.

Si ce poinçon du banc d'épreuve apparait sur ce catalogue de 1884, il ne fait aucun doute que le banc d'épreuve de Paris était déjà existant.

>>la vérité du moment ne sera pas forcément celle du lendemain.<<

Great phrase.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

What some proper insight to things unspoken.......

I gladly take the >>Elysian Fields << but Germany's modes of transportation is quite a bit to be desired as it has failed me miserably in my quest to arrive in Liège, where Marc was awaiting my arrival.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Merci Fab. Rough translation:

"The old catalogs are surely the shortest cut to truth. They crossed over the decades to give us information, One must always be skeptical about contemporary literature. The truth of the present will surely not be that of tomorrow.

If the stamp of the Paris proof house appeared in this 1884 catalog, there must be no doubt that the proof house was already in existence."


And I still have questions. One old catalog cannot negate 100 years of written history. Admittedly, gun history is subject to a lot of "oral legend' and "old wives tales." However, the origin of the Paris Proof House does not seem to be one of these. The provenance of that catalog needs to be established. Either that, or FAB has truly pushed back the boundary of history.

And by the way...did anyone notice the proof-stamps for the USA under "military firearms"? Anyone have a date for those?

I'm glad I found this thread. This past week, I purchased a French Rook rifle on Gunbroker. It was listed as a Mon Marquis and said they could not identify the caliber, even though they had a chamber cast (included). They only had a few pictures. I was the only bidder. I recieved it Thursday and have spent most of the time trying to find information. It is a relatively simple Rook rifle like many of the English side lever single shots, but the wood was very high grade, it had very good quality engraving ( heavy oak leaf around the tang and breech and nice floral encircling the pins and screws. It has a really nice feature in the fore end release. It appears to be attached with a screw and the pivot pin for the barrel has a screw head. I suspected it came apart like a Tell rifle, but when I started to remove the fore end screw, it turned only a quarter and stopped. I pulled on the fore end, and it turned out that the screw was actually a release. The entire gun can be disassembled with a quarter turn. The top of the octagen barrel is engraved:

Mon (on superscript) Marquis Coirier Succr (superscript r) Boulevard Des Iteliene 4 Paris.

As noted in one of the posts, the flamboyant script style made it very hard to read. I Googled every variation of my suspected spelling and was coming up blank. The impossible words were Coirier and Italien. The street appeared to be Halien and the only reference I found to Boulevard Des Heliene was an Impressionist painting entitled "View of Boulevard Des Halien". (I later realized the Gallery had mis-read the artist's title. It was, after all, an Impressionist painting.)A MapQuest search for the address kept jumping to Boulevard Des Italien, so I switched to that, realizing that the "It" looked lik a stylized "H". When I tried that with the correct one of the 8 possible versions of Coirier, I found the pinfire blog entry and this thread. Sometimes it is really hard to find the information you need. I f I had read this first, I would have already known when I saw the gun listing.

My only remorse about the gun is that it was marked 380 on the barrel, but had been lined and rechambered to 32 Long Colt. I plan to order some brass and bullets and try it out.

Not wanting to hi-jack the thread but thought that two guns from the same obscure maker at nearly the same time was an oddity.

That is an excellent story and so typical of our collective research into French guns. Thankfully we have a small group including a couple of French posters, FAB500 being prominent, (Wildcattle seemingly lost on Passionlachasse), who can shed light on these guns.

One final note. I broke the gun down this morning and found a couple of things. I has the ELG mark on the barrel and frame along with a * over L on both. I am presuming Belgium manufacture. The barrels and frame are prominently marked 7 which I presume is the serial number. The barrel is marked 19, which I think may be a date code for 1919. Also, I reported oak leaf engraving on the frame and tang, but on second look, I suspect it would be more properly called Acanthus.

As an aside, I went to Google maps and located the address. Walked the little man down the street. The actual building is some sort of odd shop, but from the architecture and neighborhood, this was never the low rent district. People in that neighborhood never ordered low price guns from their LGS.

[





Argo adore tradurire le français.

Sur le papier, le poinçon du banc d'épreuve existe depuis 1866.
En 1882, l'état français commence a tapé du poing sur la table pour que les canonniers éprouvent leurs productions.

Argo is most adept @ translating French. But if the mark was adopted or in force since 1866, why do we not see it on some of Léopold Bernard's tubesets with the Paris touchmark?

As far as location, was there a Paris Proofhouse facility in 1866 that had a physical address??


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Voila a rough translation. It looks like a proof house law was on the books in Paris since 1866 and the Paris proof stamp had be homogulated; but the law was generally ignored and an actual proof house was not created until possibly the 1890's. It seems clear from the last paragraph that as of 1882, a separate Paris proof house run by the government did not exist and that M. Leopold Bernard was the proof house as of 1882. This 1882 circular looks to be one of the first (as FAB said) to really try to force the issue of proofing guns in Paris. (See the complaints of M. Herve Didier-Drevet in his report on the 1878 Paris Exposition on the lack of a proof house in Paris previously posted). So the Paris proof stamp existed, it was irregularly enforced, and the proofing was performed by Bernard "if requested."

Office of the Prefect
1st Bureau
Circular 21

Relative to the proofing of firearm barrels meant to be sold commercially,

Paris, 30 June 1882

Sirs, by a circular dated 14 November 1881, Nr. 51, I have instructed you to remind your management of gun fabricating establishments and of gun merchants of the presecriptions of the law relative to the proofing of firearm barrels intended for trade. I beg you, moreover, to invite these industrial products to be proofed by M. Brun, expert gun seller, living in Paris, rue de Rivoli, 110, proofer named by my Prefecture, of arms which have a magazine and which would not be provided with a proof mark

As a result of various circumstances, the measure as presented has so far not been able to be executed (put into effect).

The Minister of Commererce, by a decision of last 26 April, athorized M. Brun to served as proofer for those who ask for it, of the Proofhouse of M. e Leopold Bernard, owner of the gun store situated on rue de Villejust, in Paris.

M. Brun will have to use, for marking the arms, stamps adopted by a ministerial decision of 1 March, 1866, following of which are the stampings.



I ask you, in consequence, Sirs, to invite your management of gun making and gun selling establishments as well as second-hand shops, to have proofed (stamped) without delay the guns which they make as well as those of Parisian origin in their stores which are not currently provided with the proof mark.

As for unproofed foreign weapons that gun sellers might still have on display, the Minister of Commerce has decided that these arms having been introduced in France in a period where the prescriptions concerning proofing of fire arms was not rigorousely applied, it was necessary to wait before submitting them for testing for the creation of a functioning proof house in Paris in accordance with the prescriptions of the degree of 22 April 1868, for which the Ministry of commerce is responsible.

Kindly let me know upon receipt of this circular the results of your efforts.

Please accept, sirs, an assurance of my utmost consideration,

The Prefect of police.

MAIGRET

http://www.collections.musee-art-in...anaqz6ytm2vj2ky6jbngx14a1ngvw5lsj4y93mpb

Canon Léopold Bernard portant l'épreuve de Paris, numéro de série 31428 - 1884.

Interesting find. I do however wish we could see the mark & the Léopold Bernard datastring.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So from 14 November, 1881 forward we may see the Paris mark if the maker wanted to submit to Léopold Bernard for final testing? I do now see that a longarm would experience the full regiment of test from provisional to final?? Or did I miss something?

>>31428 - 1884 / 8102
inscription ; 8102.1885<<

I wonder why 2 dates or is one Bernard & the other for the test & application of the Paris touchmark by Léopold Bernard?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ellenbr
Le N/S 8102 est celui de arme c'est pour cela qu'on le retrouve sur les canon ainsi que sur la bascule.
1885 est sûrement la date d'achèvement du fusil.

En 1881, l'éprouveur du banc de Paris est M. Brun. Bernard ne fournit que les locaux.

Ah, I see that Mr. Brun was the Proofmaster at the voluntary proof facility under Léopold Bernard's umbrella. The situation could be that the >>31428-1884<< is a Bernard tubeset number?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse