Have to say I didn’t see that coming out of British Sporting Arms.

Jonny’s continuing “Coming to America” series has been interesting and entertaining but I found his stop at the BSA shop in Millbrook, NY, fascinating (@ 17:00).





And I notice the TGS logo continues. Do we suppose his keeping company with rebellious colonials has cured him of his Proofhouse thinking? 😉

For those of an interest, a trip up to Millbrook is a very nice trip.

Sandanona is a lovely place to spend the day and BSA is a great place to buy things. He will have things in stock there for you to handle that you cannot find anywhere else without great effort. Hard and soft goods.

I highly recommend the visit.

I don't have 24 minutes to watch this crap.

However, if Miroku WAS the 'most reliable ' or even on the short list, several vendors would not offer firing pin and spring kits for them.

They make a decent gun, a servicebale gun, one you can usually keep running yourself.

i had one that would misfire the under barrel enough to be annoying at 1,000 shells fired.

The most reliable brand in my limited experience is Benelli.

Read it and weep.

Truth, brother. Mostly.

I would beg to differ on the Benelli thing, unless you are talking a Nova. There is a SBE in the house that can not be considered “reliable”.

I believe it was Kirk Merrington that pointed out to me that no double is really maintenance free. Honestly, he pointed out the more expensive the double gun, the more expensive the maintenance would be. This ended my short period of ownership of English side lock guns, that I freely admit was aggravated by the fact that I only purchased clapped out versions of same- hey, I was a kid. He grudgingly noted that a Darne, sans under rib, would be very, very close to maintenance free.

He was my gunsmith for the Darne guns I imported for 20 years. He didn’t get much work from me.

Best,
Ted

I beg to differ on the Benellis as well. I would replace the name Benelli with Beretta, based on personal experience.

Beretta owns Benelli, and makes all the barrels for them. Benellis kick harder, are louder, and require more cleaning and lubing than Berettas. But, fact of the matter is, they're all semis, and I'm not a big fan of any of them.

Funny how our experiences differ.

An inertia gun requires less maintenance than any gas gun, provided you don't try to feed them Kent steel shells which would likely induce a failure in any shotgun ever made.

My M1 Super 90 'Field' has been trouble free for 27 years now. 20 gauge Cordoba has been perfect for 15 years. I can't say that about my Beretta 391's. They both needed the bent carrier mod from Cole's. That fixed the reliability issues with them. That said, I just shot the 'Ghetto Special' Teknys 391 for 3 weeks in a row because all I can get here is the Wally World 100 packs and it ran through 600 of those with nary a burp. This may be because Federal has finally learned to make a smokeless shotgun shell. The gun is still clean and would doubtless run 600 more without service.

My Beretta O/U guns have been good, except for that part about the broken hammer. The various Brownings here have never broken a hammer. They do, however, need pins and springs once in a while unlike the Berettas.

My point is that to state the Miroku guns as the most reliable is just absurd.

That has just not been my experience at all. My old 390 will just go, and go and go. Without cleaning if necessary. It is the only autoloader I've ever bought, and when I did I asked about cleaning it. I was told "You know how, when you hold it up and turn it from end to end, you hear something that sounds like it slides and stops with a ping? When it doesn't do that anymore it might be time for a cleaning." That was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but fairly accurate. I was duck hunting with it in the Bayou Meto one morning and got sick. I headed for the boat, some 60-80 yds. away, and passed out and fell face forwards into the crotch deep water. My 390 was being held in both hands and went under, and down into the silt and muck on the bottom. The cold water woke me and I got up and made my way to the boat where I eventually recovered from my brief sickness. The action was frozen shut. I poured mud, water, leaves and silt out of the barrel, checked it, worked the action a few times, and went back to killing ducks. It never failed to cycle one time. Later that day it got a complete strip, clean and lube. Even the action spring had trash in it.

I have seen too many Benellis fail to cycle on a round of clays to agree with your statement. And BTW, my old Super X2, that I won in a sporting clays tournament, would shoot a round (100) of Kent Estates without any attention at all. JMEYMMV.

The Benelli. It was a happy day I bought my first SBE which lasted until it wouldn't cycle after the first shot out of the box. The dealer replaced it. The next happy Benelli day was when I got rid of the replacement. What other shotgun has had so many documented ftf's that it has earned a title when the bolt unexpectedly rotates out of battery? The "Benelli Click". BTW, Jonny, the author of the video above, has a video wherein he shows how to completely strip down the trigger and ejector assemblies of 680-686 series with a Leatherman tool with commentary of the genius of the design that all parts can be purchased inexpensively and replaced without requiring fitting to properly work. When I first decided to buy my Beretta O/U, it was only after consulting my LGS's owner and gunsmith who sold both the Browning and Beretta that Beretta was far better to source parts than was Browning but that the Beretta needed far less repairs than the Browning O/U. OMMV. Gil

Getting back to doubles, OUs have an inherent weakness compared to sxs: With the exception of the few that have straight line strikers, they're angled on most OUs. Not unusual for them to require tinkering to keep them working properly.

I love reading stuff like this on hobby Internet forums.

It’s a bit of a surprise that the only piece commented upon was a minor remark by Charles.

Sandanona is a lovely facility. With upland fields, casting ponds, a restaurant, clays facilities, Orvis store, etc. right there.
BSA is just around the corner, and has all kinds of treasures.

AH Fox-"The Finest Gun in the World". As originally made in Philadelphia.

Everyone is wrong, the Vickers machine gun is the most reliable gun ever built. But since it isn't a shotgun, its probably OT for this thread.

"In 1963 in Yorkshire, a class of British Army armorers put one Vickers gun through probably the most strenuous test ever given to an individual gun. The base had a stockpile of approximately 5 million rounds of Mk VII ammunition which was no longer approved for military use. They took a newly rebuilt Vickers gun, and proceeded to fire the entire stock of ammo through it over the course of seven days. They worked in pairs, switching off at 30 minute intervals, with a third man shoveling away spent brass. The gun was fired in 250-round solid bursts, and the worn out barrels were changed every hour and a half. At the end of the five million rounds, the gun was taken back into the shop for inspection. It was found to be within service spec in every dimension."



Link: https://www.popularmechanics.com/mi...n-is-one-of-the-best-firearms-ever-made/

Yeah, so there!

I just like easy access to repair parts if something goes wrong.
Miroku/Browning has many repair sites if needed.

The rest, vanilla/chocolate/whatever.

Respecting Charles Schneible’s experience and his long exposure to all the finest doubles, his choice of Fabbri as his favorite was interesting but Miroku as the most reliable was a surprise. I have no experience with Miroku so nothing to base that response on but I was, and am, hoping that some more of this community who do may yet weigh in.

Sawrhis late, but the only one I remember was not a shotgun, but the .40 Glocks when they came out. The were referred to as something like the "Glock Boomers" or some such due to the many "impressive self disassemblies" reported.

I have probably discharged 100,000 rounds through Browning/Miroku O/U’s.
These are my findings.

A new out-of-the-box browning sporting clays model, will run about 40,000 rounds before it needs rejoining.
A Browning shop can change the worn parts, and get it back to you in a day.

I imported a pair of Miroku High pheasant 20s through Charles, And other than visiting his shop for pick up and testing, I did so entirely on his reputation.

The transaction was effortless, and cost efficient.


I have put just about 5000 rounds through them.
They operate in every way exactly as my Browning’s have and I am pleased with the barrel differences.

The top lever locking mechanism was too tight on number two, so I had them polished until the top lever effort was identical between the two guns. You can tell no difference between them any longer.

They will outlast me, draining the life from high birds with excellent patterns and a dynamic nature.

Just another reason why the ONLY semi-auto in my working battery is my 1961 Browning A-5 light 12-28" mod VR.. Nothing stops a properly set-up A-5, Nothing. RWTF

I'd put the Browning cal. .50 MG (Ma-Deuce) against any Limey or even Kraut heavyMG for endurance with mil. ord. ball ammo. RWTF

sand

Blonds, Brunetts, Redheads, different flavors for different people. We have all seen problem guns, if you have been shooting long enough and problem hair colors as well. Some of the entry level guns do as well or better than the more expensive ones. I had a Mossberg 500 which has had over 50,000 shells shot through it, with no mechanical issues so far. Only part repaired was a cracked butt stock which got cracked when I lent it to a friend, who fell and cracked it. A little Acraglas has held for the last 40 years. Or the Crescent .410 double my late uncle used for his entire life. That gun has killed enough quail to fill a six wheel truck, untold numbers of dove and more hawks than I like to think about. But when I was a kid every farmer killed every small hawk they could as a matter of principle. In fact if you were hunting as a guest and failed to shoot a hawk you had better have a good reason for not doing so.

John's love affair with Miroku I think comes from that being one of his earliest guns, which he fell in love with. He had a good example and still loves it. His videos are enjoyable to watch and give more than a little bit of information. He did a series about the year of a game keeper which explains how driven birds are raised, released and shot. It is a lot of work and involves a lot of money to get good flying birds ready for the shoots.

If people wanted absolute reliability in o/u’s(and SxS’s)they’d adopt the snap action underlever concept, that would also act to cock the hammers. The action bodies would be stronger, easier to manufacture, easier to time, and have a much longer wear window. This would also allow for the firing pins to be less angled, which only has benefits. The actions would be ambidextrous, only difference would be the stocks; cast-off for right handlers, and cast-on for wrong handers. Bonus points if we are talking a striker fired concept with sear override lockwork.

I dont think Miroku does this.

But people just had to have the top lever…

Some of the first and earliest breech loading “automatic” or hammerless actions were designed exactly like this.
More “modern” versions of the action would be the Manufrance Ideal, Thomas Woodward Spiral spring, etc. I like them, for pretty much the exact same reasons you seem to. With that said……I believe the masses had spoken, pretty much all of the makers agreed with them…and the top lever was made the standard.

Except maybe a steel head Euro-shell. Or a cracked forend. Or the spring steel band on the friction piece rotating around all by itself and pinching off the slot.

I have five of these things and as much as I enjoy them all five are finicky in one way or another.



It won't do that by itself. A clever operator, of course, can induce this by pulling the handle back allowing the bolt to rotate out of battery and then ease it forward slowly enough for it to not lock. A single drop of oil between the bolt body and the bolt head keeps a Benelli running for a long time provided you chose shells with a recoil impulse appropriate to the model. Tip: A SBE is not a very good selection as a target gun.



Complete fantasy. There are 'Authorized Browning Repair Centers' that are completely incompetent. A single day turn around from the ONE I know capable of doing the work (Arnold) is laughable. My brother sent his Cynergy to an Authorized Browning place in Oregon where it sat for 6 weeks. They returned it, unfixed, because they lacked the necessary skill and charged him $80 plus shipping for the marvelous service. The gun then went to Arnold, and came back in 2 months or so fixed but with the triggers at the lawyer mandated 6.5 pounds. Browning service in general sucks.

“Target Gun” is about the only use I have found for the SBE 1 that my Father left to me. My son shoots trap with it. He loves to shoot with Grandpas gun, and he only has to shoot once.

Someday, he will go pheasant hunting with me, when the weather is nice, and his friends are all busy, and there is no mountain biking that needs to be done ( he isn’t a meat eater, by and large) and he might need a second shot.

He might get it.


Might not. Oblivious, until then.

Best,
Ted

Benellis do suck. I’ve owned 2. A M1 Super 90 and a SBE. Both bought at the same time, in the early 2000’s, brand new. I read the hype, and bought into them hook line and sinker. Benelli click is real, and it’s one of the most irritating & aggravating shotgun problems I’ve ever encountered. Those two guns messed up more hunts than I’d care to admit to. They are the Chauchat of shotguns. Over hyped & over priced junk. After a year of continuous disappointment, I sold them back to the same shop I bought them from (Scheels-Omaha) and bought a Winchester super X2. Have never looked back. That X2 has been serious waterfowling for its entire life…from the Platte River, Rainwater basins, cut corn fields, Mississippi River, Kenai peninsula, Utah salt marshes, Idaho mud & silt, etc.
it has never failed. I bet a Benelli has dreams about being as reliable as that clapped out X2. Funny thing was, Scheels sold those two junk Benelli’s pretty much the same day I sold them back to them. I’ve always felt sorry for the poor saps that bought them.
I’ve got a Beretta 390 that I’d say is about as good as the X2. Basically I’d take pretty much anything over a Benelli.

A-5’s are rock solid. Always have been. Especially when the operator knows how to clean it and set it up. I’ve never owned a dud A-5. Ever. Over lube it, problems. Oil the mag tube, problems. Over tighten the forend cap, problems. Don’t do these things…..it’s as reliable as a ma’ deuce.

Can’t say I’ve been a fan of Benelli either. From first hand experience of multiple Benellis turning into single shots on a hunt, all owned and maintained by different people. To well known cycling issues that are resolved by installing aftermarket sure-cycle kits. To the Benelli click from accidentally setting the gun down too hard on its butt, or brushing the bolt handle on brush or the blind while bringing the gun up to shoulder. POI relative to POA issues, noted by many authors. I’ll pass on rotary bolt shotguns.

A5’s have their issues as well, but I’d regard them to be much more reliable than a Benelli.

Beretta 390’s we’re great, as were 391’s. The carrier issue was easily resolved on some 391’s.

A late Super X 1 is my favorite clay semi, especially with aftermarket SS parts. SX2 and SX3 are great guns, aside from the rare occurrence of the spring in the piston failing.

For reliability I’ll take my Beretta 303s over anything.

Having read all the foregoing comments, I am motivated to say how much I prefer my Parker original and Parker repro shotguns.

The ONLY problem that I ever had was with a brand new 12 ga Repro because the action fit so tight that I had to shoot some cheap aluminum base shells to break it in so it could shoot better ammo.

All are now well broken in and have no problems.

How smart do you have to be to buy two unreliable guns ?

What, you’ve never bought an unreliable gun? Ever? You’re the smartest guy on this forum? Next time folks should check with you, the smartest guy on the forum to see if a gun that is touted by what seems to be every Tom, Dick & Harry out there to be the most reliable system ever developed for a automatic shotgun, if it’s a good idea to buy one or two of them.

I was smart enough to dump em and not waste anymore time with those turds, so I guess I’m not a totally lost cause.😂

Hey... shotguns are machines and like all machines parts break and/or wear out. When we used to go to SA shooting in the eighties we took two shotguns each...and not because we were double gunning the doves. Same as when I used to shoot a lot trap. Two guns, as invariably one would break while on the line. I'm a believer in O'Flannigan's law....he thought Murphy was an optimist.

I bought two SBE2 for my sons. One has had the dreaded click three times while the other has never had one, so far. I bought a SBE3 for my daughter in law for her graduation from medical school. She loves it and uses it for everything. So far, so good but it has only had a few thousand rounds through it.

There are good and bad examples in every thing. My father had a set of Goodyear OEM tire on a new Chevy which he got 95,000 miles out of. When he went to buy a new set of Goodyears they tried to talk him into a better grade if tires to get longer life. When he pointed out that they were the factory tires and had 95,000 miles with tread still remaining they were amazed. His second set had 80,000 miles on them when he got rid of the tires. I struggle
To get 40,000 miles out of any Goodyear tire. Good and bad.

A few years ago I was sitting in a blind on San Francisco Bay and three drake canvasbacks flew past. I grabbed my M1 Super 90 and the trigger group fell in my lap. The fiddly little clip on the retaining pin had disappeared.

Let's tell it like it is.

Nothing 'disappeared'. You lost the clip last time you had the trigger plate out and didn't check that the pin was held captive when you reassembled it.

This is not a bug, it's a feature. The design was adpopted from a military shotgun that can be disassembled without tools (not even a Leatherman).

The business about the gun not being in battery and 'messing up more hunts than I care to admit to' says more about the operator than the gun. I have to contrive an out of battery situation and it's difficult to concieve this happening accidentally even once. As far as sitting the loaded gun down hard enough to have it open, well, I'm glad I don't share a blind with you.

It's pretty clear we do not have a commonality of experience. I consider the Benelli a brilliant piece of work and regularly use both of mine with complete satisfaction.

No. It’s a piece of over priced junk. That’s what it is. I’m glad I don’t share a blind with you either. Any rabid fanboy that thinks the Benelli is brilliant is a joke.

There, I told it like it is. Enjoy your Benellis.

It’s okay, even though your idea of brilliance is lacking I’d still share a blind with you. Just keep that Italian trash away from my Greener.

Benelli is the most over priced shotgun on the market IMO. Ever seen a 828U ? Yuck
I bought into the hype and bought an M2, ok gun, but kicked to much, I prefer a gas gun.
I own several Browning O/U's and a Miroku MK38, never had a problem so far, great guns for the price you pay.
Will they ever need work/repair ? probably, just like ANY other gun you can buy.

I’ve had great o/u shotguns from Browning, Beretta, Merkel and Perazzi. My Berettas have easily been the most trouble free. I do currently have a Miroku 20 ga High Pheasant with 32” barrels and tight fixed chokes. It is one of the best handling and most beautiful guns I’ve ever owned! Bought, of course, from BSA.

The Miroku guns have more “class” about them compared to the Brownings. They just look better, plus they come with fixed chokes.

I have a number of Miroku O/U's in 12's, 20's and 28 bore , used a lot and have never been let down by anyone of them .
Sadly I also have Berettas and Krieghoffs and they have been troublesome .
Interestingly , friends who have various brands of Miroku all agree that the best by far is the MK38 or 3800 models .
I really love my Grade 5 MK38's which have served me very well over a good number of years .

I agree.