I just aquired another English SxS hammer gun it has Side Clips and dates to 1878.

Just currious as to how early Side Clips were used and if anyone knows what maker first used them ?

Really one of the more useless things on a gun h0mie - and almost never seen on the English lite gamegun.
I can only think of 'em being used in the worthless sport of the pigeon ring. Spring loaded dizzy birds they were, and at the mercy of squaty rich old men who can no longer make the trek.
Side clips, good for taking a hunks o flesh tho!

Okay someone express surprise that Lowell doesn't know the answer to Homeless' question.

Is it not surprising, given the flak that Lowell has been given on various posts recently, that Lowell seems increasingly belligerent?
It is my guess that sideclips were indeed first seen on Pigeon guns or Wildfowling guns and no doubt Greener had something to do with them or if he didn't he would have had something to say about them.Yes in todays age of H&S they do cause issues with lacerating digits.But I confess I like to see them especially when the bolster is adorned with oak leaf engravings.

Actually fellers, in a pure existential sense, all alive today would have to say I don't know but I've been told . . .--to include the date-spoutingest chronologist or historian. Some of us aren't up to the "Chambers standard" for factoid density per line of print, so please, somebody tell us before we have to go look it up!

jack

Lowell I'll agree the gun was probably built for the ring...

I'm kind of currious about "the taking hunks flesh out" and the "lacerating of digits"...sounds like am "Urban myth" to me

I've no mesmerizing tales to dazzle the readers of Motts Corner Rabbit, nor notebooks with page after page of the memoirs of an Ithica screw polisher.
...but knowning the homely state of the working fowler, side clips would be mostly found on pigeon guns.
h0mie - a Merkel did take a bit o me - just a little bit!

It seems to me that this "strengthning" design came about in the third quarter of the 19th century. It was , possibly, a marketing affectation that was supposed to make the side to side motion of the barrels, at the breech, a thing of the past. Considering that I have never seen a gun that had them be loose in that direction, I think it must have worked.
As the leading edge of the clip must be sharp to fit the barrels, it is easy to see that some have been wounded by them.
I still think that they are attractive and knowing the skill necessary to make them, it should be a sign of an especially fine gun.
But as Russ was wont to say, I could be wrong.
Best,
John

The bread and butter of the English gun trade were barrels sans the clips. Now if a Boss gamegun really needed side clips, I bet they'd be there. Wouldn't you think?

Nope the English didn't build guns with side clips, except of course...


Purdey


Boswell


MIDLAND GUN CO


Holland & Holland double rifle


Pigeon shooting was an event at the 1900 Olympics. The gold medal was won by Leon de Lunden of Belgium.

Joe,

I have no idea when they came into use, but I will defer to Mr Mann's sage advice on the matter.

Pete

Yeh, we're on the same page, LG. Actually, I would have liked to hear a bit more about the "Newton" Flues. Guess he was just tempting me with the article or book he'll never write. As for sideclips, I had a Noble Arms 420 which had them and even on this sorry excuse for everything else, they had been effectively sharpened.

jack

Lowell I shot 50 rounds of Sporting Clays...a round of Skeet and 25 wObble trap and the Purdy never bit me.

If the 'bites' from Side Clips are not just 'urban legend'....they must be caused by operator malfunction ?

HopelessjOe,
The injuries from sideclips are not 'urban myth' they are real.Normally suffered by 'Loaders' on double gun days, when hastily reloading to keep up with M'Lord who is often struck with the driven guns affliction 'Greed'.

I guess that's how Lowell got cut.

1. Anyone who is injured, however slightly, by sideclips has no idea how to load or unload a shotgun. It's simply a non-issue.

2. I shot, this very afternoon, a Francotte with sideclips. It is loose in the lateral plane! This gun has two underbolts, and a Greener. If the intention of the sideclips was to prevent lateral play, it failed miserably in this case.

3. Pigeons used in shooting events are the property of the shooters to do with as they please. If you have a problem with private property rights, move to Cuba.

I glad I ain't Anyone!

jack

I have to agree with Mr. John and have always held that the clips were used to insure there was no side play to the bbl's. There might have been a bit of artistis license involved with the bbl fitter/filler too. Anything to increase sales ----- Ken

I've always thought sideclips were and elegant addition to a gun that allowed the maker to show off a little bit. It takes quite a bit of talent to get them perfect and I think they add a bit of uniqueness to a gun.

I've shot my sideclipped gun at the one-man flurry at the Upper Peninsula Side by Side Classic (with a loader) and at several others where I loaded it myself - never been "bit" nor was the fellow loading for me. I loaned it out to another shooter and loaded for them and had no problems either.

I've always heard, but never verified, that sideclips were originally added to provide greater action strength side to side.

Does it matter if side clips are functional? They look good, they add appeal to any gun and, unless, you are incompetent (lowell?), they don't hurt a thing. I've got a Merk with them and I like them just fine. I don't have them on my english guns, and that is a small negative on the aesthetic scale, but I'll live.

Brent

Concur with most of what's been written re intended to prevent lateral movement, but are more of a marketing/showoff ploy.
The ones I've seen tend to have been on pigeon and 'fowling guns - guns built to throw heavier charges which may loosen a gun sooner - but I did handle a wonderful pair of Woodward "automatic" patent game guns c1888 some weeks ago which were sideclipped (incidentally: this pair are the kind of fabled guns we don't get to hear much of here; the kind Lowell and others have mused about eg "Here is the pair of Mountbatten Purdeys I bought on the weekend"...). The round "point" of the clip was not sharp, and stood wider than the barrel, though the surfaces did mate cleanly. I personally find the plain, flat, vertical breech face offers much cleaner, more elegant lines - especially with Woodward's arcaded fences! Less is more...
I can't see how they'd be a potential injury issue; if your finger or thumb are anywhere near there on closing (why? operator error) then it's going to be pinched against the standing breech anyway (trust me...!). There are myriad silly ways to injure yourself cycling any gun!
RG

I could see where a nimrod might cut his finger.

Now that the origins of the oddment have been roughly chrono'd and the oddment disparaged and the coordination of the disparagers of the oddment called in question, why don't you tell us about the gun, Joe? Got pictures?

jack

I don't have any pics yet...I'd tell you about it but I'd be feared Lowell might get cut reading it.

Lets get crackin' here laddies, I did say the "English lite gamegun." One would only think I've spoiled Pete's day with my dislike of pigeon shooting to dig up those pics.
I'd bet the ratio of English non-side clip barrels, to side clips are well-well over a hundred to one.
If they(side-clips) were essential to all the great guns.......they'd all have 'em.
...and as you know, price was no object at the estates.

Sometimes you gotta consider the source, Jack... My brilliant post above was made by a guy who once stuck an extractor through the meat of his thumb trying to get an A-5 back together with birds in the air. We all have our moments...

Here I thought most of the people on this site only shot driven birds? Has Lowell ever had to load his own gun on his estate shooting, or just had his man do the loading, what?

Most guys who have pigeon guns, have never been in the ring.
Some would like you to think so, with the secret handshakes and vague internet postings....all hush-hush mind you!
Where the Fabbris are, and big cash is on the shot - Prolly(ssmbbbs lingo here) most of these pigeon gun owners are waiting for the ballgame to start.

Lowell I wasn't concerned with the function of side clips or the ratios of English guns with and without side clips....or the cut fingers of Nimrods...I was just currious when they first came on the scene.

I've never been to a pigeon shoot Lowell what part of it do you dislike the most...the loading or the shooting ?

h0mie, noboby knew for sure, and so the twaddle begins.
Every poster so far could have said...I dunno h0mie....and where would you be eh?
Just trying to keep it afloat fur ya!

Homeless, how specific an answer do you require? You have a gun dated 1878 with sideclips and they were not required on muzzleloaders. So I would wager they came into being within 35 years of your gun - probably a little less.

I know what you mean, Shotgun. Self-indictment isn't all that appealing. I used to make an accounting of the stupid things I did by the week; as time goes by it's getting to be a per day thing.

jack

I figured we had a reader that might know more than I did...that's all.
I thought there might be a patend on them.

Since the post was started we've lost a few fingers...and learned that Lowell detests pigeon shooting.....and has refused to discuss why ?

h0meless0ne, detests is such a harsh word - maybe dislikes is a better one.
But you've asked.
So, its living targets in a strange land!

Btw j0e, we won't make fun of any future typos either.

Lowell I hate for you to have to resort to making fun of my spelling.....I figger'd yOu for a smarter guy than that.

So tell us why you dislike shooting at living targets.

I had a look in my library at the weekend for reference to sideclips and patents.I didn't spend a great deal of time on it but I have to admit I found nothing.Somewhere in this old head I seem to think that Tolley had something to do with the subject.The later post on ventilated ribs brought home to me how the shotgun as evolved and how the manufacturers were continually coming up with 'must haves' to continue the flow of orders.Churchill, Cogswell, Westley to name just a few.
Homeless you have certainly opened up a can of worms now I will not rest until I find out who, if anyone did, patented sideclips.
HELP.

I aquired a Purdy a week back from a friend...I had shot the gun before but never really noticed the side clips being there if I did I had forgot about them.
It's seen better days but still a very fine gun...10 gauge 'A' quality Purdy 1879 top lever, hidden third fastener hammer gun with side clips and niceley sleaved 30" Nitro proved for 3 & 1/2" at 4 tons. A poor mans Purdy hammer gun.
I know around 1879 things in the English gun trade were happening fast and furious...after looking at the side clips along with the 1879 production date I just got curriuos.

In Bitkoff cathalog of 1911/12 I found the following fraze, Everybody knows Purdey's bolt and bite and Purdey's Side Clips...
My IMHO, side clips are very bad thing, when you consider to put barrels ON face.

As Geno points out above; I have heard them referred to as "Purdey side clips" for at least 40 years. Whether this means that the Purdey firm was the originator remains to be seen.
Jim

I had another look yesterday, found numerous Purdey's dated 1894 including Earl de Grays hammer guns with sideclips but also found later guns 1916 etc., with and without sideclips.Purdey do not list sideclips in their patents so I guess someone else does.
Who?

Sideclips were invented to address the twisting moment caused by the barrel being fired's position adjacent to the centerline of the shotgun. Every shot produces this twist, eats at the pin ( most commonly on the side fired first), and shortens longevity. In the early days, metallurgy wasn't as advanced as today, and consequently beefier surfaces were a common attempt at slowing wear.
The sideclip acts as a lever to the axis of rotation about the pin, and as it is a long radius away from the point of twist, adds considerable resistance to twisting. Just ask Archimedes.

I have read this repeatedly, seen it posted here and elsewhere, and am quite surprised no one tossed this in 3 pages ago.

Get with it lads, use your A game!

Hummmmmmmmmmmm:
Seems that I recollect that old Archimedes was a man of principal.
Being that is so, the application of his efforts seem to have been applied in a rather selective manner. We see these clips on guns of many marques and grades. I grant that they are well built ones. If this addressed the twisting question, it begs to be asked---why weren't they on all guns above JABC quality?
If it were a metallurgy issue, why do we see them on rather modern guns today.
I can accept that the answer to my first question has been put forth by our learned and astute member,ClapperZapper. Still think that the answer to my second question is that they are attractive and connote, if not denote, quality.
Best,
John

PeteM - No doubt it was just an oversight to leave off a Woodward light game gun with side clips . So, to set that right: about 1892, 12 2 1/2", 29 1/8" barrels, 14 1/4" LOP, 6# 1 1/2 oz, 4 3/4" balance to front trigger, 1.20 unmounted swing effort, 5.94 mounted swing effort, and 9.56 half weight radius.




Side clips "C" note high quality guns, for sure. Lot of them "C" notes!!

Best,
John

'...unmounted swing effort,....half weight radius.'Huh?

You might ask the same about just any feature from an AD forearm to a crossbolt or double triggers etc. There does not seem to be just one way to skin a cat.

FWIW, I notice that I find side-to-side play on slightly loose guns more often than I find up-down play. I only have one side clip gun and it's not loose at all, but that's not enough data to play with.

Anyway, I'd be interested to know if side-to-side play is more common than up-down and if side clips might be correlated (negatively) with that.

Brent

I personally don't think side-clips do squat for action strength. It's not obvious how they might prevent side-to-side play in a gun which is otherwise on face and tight. By deffinition, a loose gun would bring the outter edge of the barrels away from the previously nicely fitted side-clip thereby negating any value of it as an anti-pivot feature.

I did a Google search, and found one version of a 'side-clip' with obvious merit and value. Enjoy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Slim-Cut-Thong-w-Side-Clips_W0QQitemZ260140685390QQcmdZViewItem

So are you saying side clip not only can influence the expression of a shotgun?
I don't see any reason her sideclips would cause any harm either and those that suffered don’t have a clue doing what they do.

Jm - "mounted swing effort" is a measure of the muscle effort needed to to change the direction the gun is pointing. It is to mounted (from the shoulder) swing as weight is to lifting the gun (say from waist height to shoulder height). This gun requires little effort compared to heavy target or fowling guns which may require two to three times the effort. They are also two to three times as resistant to changing speed or direction.

Half Weight Radius is a measure of the gun's compactness. Typical guns are in the 10 to 11 inch range where this gun is down near 9 1/2" (compact). Guns above eleven typically have disproportinately heavy and long barrels and stocks while guns below ten tend to lighter and shorter barrels and stocks with proportinately heavier actions. This number is not as easy to understand, but once you get a feel for it, it gives you a useful snapshot of the gun's handling.

Perhaps the convergence of the time that responsible gun dealers will advertise Rocketman's numbers and the marketing of a cheap, suitable replacement for lead shot will allow for good gun purchases, and shooting of same.
We, who want to know, can only hope.
Best,
John

You guys crack me up. I was a little cynical when I made my post, but really, thats the truth about it. Sideclips were devised to deter pin wear.
I have no interest in doing the math, but I suspect a larger diameter pin, or a tapered bite do the same thing with less cosmetic fear during filing.
No question to me, they connote strength against twist.

Oh, and John, It's great to hear your voice again.

Watch the thumbs Laddies!

I did a plan view sketch and am of the opinion that side clips will do what they are alledged to do, assuming proper fitting. I agree that the unfired barrel face and the hook/pivot pin will create a tendancy for the fired barrel to move forward and to the outside. Looks to me like the clips will intercept this movement.

SJ, the clip opposite the barrel fired accepts the load. And vis-versa.

I would like to add an additional "speculative" point.
In watch making, what are known as "Complications" were seen as examples of higher quality watch making. The more the better example of ones hand work.
I think in terms of hand filed actions, the more surfaces intersecting with fine tolerances, the greater example of the makers abilities. A&D bl's being of few, and perhaps a Boss with sideclips (certainly a Purdey as well) being examples of multiple complications, showing superior abilities by getting all the surfaces to mate at the thickness of smoke.

Again, all speculation.

What do you gents think? Is watch making a suitable first cousin in terms of art and precision?

I agree when you talk about Premier guns...side clips have found their way on lots of low-grade guns.

I shot another 100 rounds yesterday...nair a cut Lowell.

ClapperZapper:
You are a seriously funny man. Or is it that you are a funny serious man. Either/or is fine by me !! LOL
Happy to post when I have something of merit to offer. Then as Russ said---I could be wrong.
Keep up the good work and your efforts to educate and challenge us.
For those that want to know, it helps. Others, it entertains and provides a focus for cussidness.LOL
Best,
John

Mr. Mann,
Happy to see you kidding around!

Best,
Milt

PeteM
Thanks for showing our Boswell 26" Pigeon Gun. David T and I along with Chris Batha have discussed this gun ad Nauseum. It is a rare configuration. As for the self mutilation aspect of Side Clips, most of it is incosequential unless one is prone to close his gun at waist level.

If one is fumble fingered and wishes to know the proper Hebrew chanted when closing a side clip gun at waist level, please write.
No fee for this tip !!!
Best,
John

Probably developed because of London's dislike/hatred of the rib extension and the inherent weakness of Purdey's double underbite that most of the English and European makers have adopted. The Germans include a Greener cross-bolt to beef up the Purdey double underbite, some others have added the sideclip. That's my theory anyway.
All the best

Gents, just my tcw but I should think it would take very little continued contact between the clips and the sides of the barrels to induce some gaping. Ergo, I don't see the real necessity for clips. After all, my 85 year old Nitro Special ain't got 'em and its still tighter than a bull's arse in fly time. Methinks much of what's been dreamed up as to the physics of simply dischaging a shotshell in a fixed breech gun is poppycock. And while I'm at it, I may as well add the poppycock of screw-in chokes, vent ribs on field guns, ported and-or backbored barrels, single triggers, beavertail forends, chrome-lined bores, et al. Now I've vented my spleen, I'm going back to the couch and the History Channel. Chops

Very well said Chops.My research continues and Treblig may be onto something, with mention of German influence.History does record the migration of German gunsmiths to Italy, Belgium, Scotland and then the walk south to London.So it is reasonable to suspect Germanic infuences on breech bolting mechanismns.The rectangular breech bolting system similar to the Greener bolt is known as the Kerstan bolt as featured on Beretta SO's. This was a German invention I believe.

Pete

Sal, to continue and you have way more exposure to high grade shotguns then I do, have you or anyone else seen side clips on a double that locks up using a rib extension?? Greeners and Germans with their massive cross bolts, Westley Richards with their doll heads???
All the best

My Merkel has both a Greener crossbolt and side clips.

Brent

" --- inherent weakness of Purdey's double underbite that most of the English and European makers have adopted." Please elaborate on this weakness.

Brent, my "lowly" Simsons too:



And they are as tight as was stated above in a bovine reference.
Even the one with claw mounts & scope that was used for slugs by previous owner:



JC(AL)

Side Clips on a Pair of c 1936 Purdey 20bores.2.3/4" Proof.. They gave Harry Kell a little more surface to Carve his Large Scroll on!!! Crossedchisles

Rocket, just the inherent weakness of the underbolt, whether its single or double. The strongest bolting system has to be the bolting that is the furthest point from the hinge. Granted Purdey's workmanship and their fit and finish makes their double underbolting extremely strong, however not as strong as a bolt through a rib extension.
All the best

And of course, J. P. Sauer & Son.

jack

t1958 - don't agree with you on a few points. The tendancy for the action to open is due to a torque around the hinge pin created by the backthrust of the fired shell being above the center of the hinge pin. The resistance to opening would have to be a torque in the opposite direction. It would be composed of the force applied to the locking mechanism times the distance from the hinge centerline to the center of the mechanism contact area. The longer the distance, proportionally the less force applied. However, strength in this case is ability to resist shear force applied to the locking parts. Shear stress on the lock parts would be opening force divided by shear area. Strength of the action, then, would depend on the relation of the shear stress to the strength of the alloy of the locking parts. A locking mechanism located a long ways from the hinge pin might be either stronger or weaker than a Purdey bolt depending on the size of the lock parts and the strength of the alloy used.

treblig1958 you ever saw a Purdey that was loose ?

My opinion of side clips, for what it's worth, they are an invention of the devil. Contrary to what some believe, they add nothing to strength. HS photos show that SS actions gap on firing and side clips do nothing to prevent this because of their geometry. The angle of the side clip to the breech face is too shallow. One could be designed to stop this movement but it would be an ugly mother. The fact is that building an action with more strength than needed is worse than pointless, it just makes for a clunky gun. Furthermore since the commonest cause of loose actions in SS guns is wear from opening and closing if makes sense to keep the process of tightening them as simple as possible. That means replacable hinge pins, replacable sliding bolts and none of these frigging cross bolts, third fasteners, side clips, rib extensions and all that kind of crap.
Nial

Let's check and see what Nial thinks.:}
Best,
John

Did someone say sideclips on a Boswell were rare? I don't know, but here's one of mine:



Also has nice three ring logo Krupp barrels.

You chaps can dig-up what you can, search the net for the obscure, but very few of the best London gameguns had side clips.
1 in 100....maybe....perhaps!
Just not needed for the huge brace counts of old.

nialpatrickmac I agree that pair of Purdeys look like works of the devil.
If you don't mind me asking how did you achieve such 3 star stardOm with only six posts ?

Lowell I'm sorry your Beesley is not one of those one of a hundred best London Game guns.

h0meless0ne, don't worry so!
Old 10bores aren't lite gameguns.
Hey j0e, give those tubes a thump for me eh.
Sounds like you've got the makings for a rhinestone cowboy.

I never noticed those stars before but now that you've called them to my attention I wonder why so few.
Nial

jOe I have never seen a loose Purdey.
Rocket can we agree that all things being equal the bearing surface furthest from the hinge is the optimum place for a locking bolt?
All the best

Thanks for clarification. I didn't save SSM article on measuring gun handling parameters using "Merry-Go-Round"
You should see Purdey double underbites plus Greener cross-boltSS on a SxS. I shot Anton Sodia .458 with this setup. Very Gargoyleisch!

"Rocket can we agree that all things being equal the bearing surface furthest from the hinge is the optimum place for a locking bolt?"

It is the place with the lowest force but that may not necessarily be the optimum place. A rib extension locking mechanism means that more of the action and barrels must carry the force of firing. That means that the action and barels must be stiffer to control flexing. "Stiffer" usually means bigger, which usually means heavier. I don't see any of the locking mechanisms as "optimum." They each have a set of pros and cons for the designer to consider and work with. If one was optimum, that is the one every designer would use. In terms of use, I guess that the high volume of USA made guns with various rib extension locking about balances out the more wide spread use of the Purdey double under bolt system.

Greener, as I recall, demonstrated that a gun snuggly on-face could be held shut with finger pressure during firing. That means that the locking mechanism doesn't carry a lot of load until the gun becomes loose.

Digging "Under the Work-Bench" A quick ref, for the Good Baron Glowthorn @ Faulty Towers. A few London (& of course,not just the Thoroughbred Makers,but even some of the 'Workhorse's' from Birmingham were filed-up with 'Side-Clips' Just a Few that have graced my Work-Bench. Pair of 20bore Purdeys c 1936 Built for King Michael of Romania, Side-Clips, "3rd Bite" (These are 'Light Game Guns) Pair of Purdey 20bore Hammer-Ejectors,c 1929 for King George V. with Side Clips.Very light game-Guns. Baron Maurice de Hirsch,1831-1897. had a pair of Purdey'Bar in Wood' 20bore Hammer guns,Whitworth Bbls.I have photos & 'Specs' of poss.6or 7 more light Purdey Game guns that have been on the Operating Table here at the Museum of Perpetual Mess'All with 'Side-Clips'..Older Doc" & Even Older Stocker', have the Baron Hirsch 20b JP photo in the Historical Collection,www.gun-vault.com You can really'Smoke a Clay @25yds with a 7/8oz with that 'Oldster"( I personally like Side-Clips, sort of rounds out the face of the action with the feel of a Breast-Like Feature you can Handle often while stocking the Action..Just my jaded opinion......This is a 'Good Thread"..Thanks again to David Webber Esq...Lets meet at the Beer-Tent@ The "Vintpoudriers Shoot"..Crossedchisles.

Here's a Purdey Hammer gun I picked up...produced in 1879 with side clips, hidden third bite and original wood. Sleeved barrels, too bad the original damascus barrels are gone.

HomelessjOe, Very nice looking Purdey Pigeon Gun,Very early !0,000 series? If you ever have reason to remove the Firing-Pins, I would like to know the length overall of the "Striker". I have had several from that period with those heavy'Detonating"I would think yours is one of the earliest "Big-UNs" I'm looking for some 'Unusual Configurations" of early Top-Lever Hammer-Guns for Donald Dallas's "PURDEY" The Definitive History, Volume ll. C/C..dt

After four pages we finally get to see the Purdey. On you it looks good Joe, nutcrackers and all.

jack

Rabbit you haven't been paying attention I've already posted a pic of it under another thread.

That looks like 11.5lb 3&1/4" big 8 pushing 2 to 2&1/2oz of Pb. Stupendous!

It's a 10 bore...I'd guess it's weight at about 8.5 lbs with the 30 inch sleaved barrels on it now. It's allot lighter than my Premier Grade Scott 10 that is two years younger.
I didn't show the whole gun because I was scared Lowell would get barrel envey...

I'd say Mr. P knew how to pick a stick lumber.....thats mighty, mighty purdey.
Steve

[img]http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/...ocksForends.jpg[/img]
[img]http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/olddocphotos/?action=view&current=SinghdeHirsch010.jpg[/img]

The first photo; Purdeys but not a side clip in sight-crosschizels

The second photo; side clips on a 20 bore Purdey owned by Baron Maurice de Hirsch

[img]http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r165/olddocphotos/?action=view&current=SinghdeHirsch010.jpg[/img]

Sorry

Soory again. Ineed to do this more often.-OD

CC how much you charge to freshen up the stock ?...I'll let you measure the firing-pins for free.

Might want to add this orphan to your collection.
Rifled bores?
Perhaps it's one of those "Jungle Guns"?
Just add this and change your name to Old Shekarry!

Andy here's another 'almost never'....a 20 bore is pretty light. Is that a ladies Pigeon gun or perhaps a young boys.

Pj...I'm not commenting on "Jungle Guns"...I might hurt someones feelings again.

Thats it then, side clips were the thing of the past with the advent of the hammerless lite gamegun.
h0meless0ne - lets see the whole gun, and every inch of them tubes matey.

In time Lowell I've been too busy shooting it to take a photo for you....I might be coming through Missouri next week.

I'll meet you for tea...bring the Beesley we can compare tubes.

Older Doc'...For the 'Wizard that you are in your Surgery' You are doing a Grand Job] with the Photography.....Terry Allen/photog' AKA Georgia Peach'up here on the St Johns River,just yesterday passed 'comment on your Fred Scales pic in SSM.Wants to meet you @ One of the Sporting Venues'Would like to Shoot Your Maharaja Duleep Singh No3 of the Trio of his !st 'Set" of Purdeys..(NO "CLIPS"}...cc/dt

HomelessjOe, Could this be one of Squire Glenthorne's"Squatty Rich Old Men,who can no longer make the 'Trek"?This is at a Live Pigeon Shoot in Indiana, 1968.(Sorry the6'2" Ex Wife was not carrying her Purdey 12,Hammer(With"Clips" that she had just killed 4 out of 6 from 30yds,"Fed,2.3/4" #7.1/2..Won 1/2 gal Jack Daniels!!!!!!

St Louie Blues, Whowie"""" Was it that long ago we were Killing "Bridge Pheasants" in Dallas....1974"""""And you still shoot the c1885 Lang 12b that I ReJointed, and you say "Its as tight as a 'Pack of Unopened Playing Cards"!!6lbs7ozs. Must be the way I ReJointed the Bbls To the Action using the "Side-Clips as the extra bearing Surfaces for the Fed Pigeon loads!!!Dam, those Side Clips really do a great job of keeping the breeches on 'Face'!!!!I've built a "London" Pigeon Gun' Beesley Self Opener'Churchill'Mechanical.Double/Single Selective Triggers,Might post a 'Pic"...Glad you still have the Grieble Engr,Browning O/U I ReForended & ReStocked that the 'EX" is showing off in the "OLD PHOTO"..Boy O Boy, did we kill lots of those Nastie ole buggie pigeons!!!Thanks for the email...Crossedchisles...and still at the G***ammed workbench!!!

Bet the Ex doesn't still look like that but the gun still looks the same!!
Jim

CC...Did you trade the eX in on a Purdey'r one ?

The Purdie One Changed to Boss's and Climbed the Ladder of 'Life after'Gunstocks' to Greater Heights......I believe there are a "Matched Pair" of Rolls Bentleys in the Garage.....Would'nt Find them wheels in a Gunmakers Lean-to'....

A current production Beesley Pat. Self-Opener,with a Churchill "Mechanical Selective Single/Double Trigger,See p.174, Masters "Epic"House of Churchill" (I've Been building this since 1974!!!! ) Long Story.....Have shot the Finished Gun. BL Hands will be Engraving it with London Gunmaking History......Crossedchisles.akadt

I forgot to add to the Beesley Pat, Type Action,with the Churchill Type Triggers" It has Beautifully Filed-Up Rounded and fitted to the Bbl breech, CLIPS'....Neary a spot of blood spilt in the making of the Action, or when I was Stocking the Working-Parts,or in the Test Fireing at Addiville Farms with Geoff Gaebe, and The Late Jack Mitchell.CC/dt

CC/dt,

Your posts are always a welcome pleasure to read.

Pete

"74"....how the heck could you stand the suspense that long ?

H-Jo. Its actualy an Extremely Sad Story, not long after I imported the Barreled Action,(No triggers, no Trigger-Plate. No Forend 'Snap",1974. Terry Barrow'Actioner, Ejectorman, Craftsman of the Highest Order'Former Apprentice to Ben Delay Jr. Actioner. I recieved the Devastating News, Terry had been Killed in his Workshop..a Freak Accident. Details are not Necessary.I belive this was his last completed Gun.I couldnt bring myself to Build it to completion. I built a Wooden Box, Wrapped the parts in wax Paperput it inthe back of the Safe.McIntosh convinced me over the years to start up again...Long Story..Ive aprox,250 photos the project(All 35mm) Iv'e been Digitalizeing?most of them. Its taken on a Small Book Status at this point( It even had a 'Spin-Job'by Researcher at Sandanona. Richard Purdey was Quite Fascinated by that procedure...and so to bed...cc/dt