Diggory Hadoke forwarded a query about a Reilly cape gun, based on the Reilly article he published 3 years ago. In correspondence with the Canadian gentleman he asked if I would post it. He is thinking of selling but hasn't a clue about value. Neither do I. Searching Guns International I can find only one Brit-made cape gun for sale, an Army-Navy at $4,500. Any opinions would be welcome: Here is his description of the gun:

Greetings I have just found your excellent website and am very impressed. I was researching my E.M.Reilly s/n 26445 which is a Cape gun in 12 bore and 577 BPE 3 1/4 inch . It is an under lever with beautiful Damascus barrels . It has been professionally refinished and the Damascus brought out to a magnificent finish. I felt you may want to add this info to your list of known Reilly guns. I can send some photos if this is of interest. I am curious to find out a ballpark value if that is possible as i am thinking of selling this gun. Thank-you







I responded as follows:

26445 would date per my chart to late summer, early autumn 1884. Reilly had surged his production of serial numbered guns in 1882 to enable him to sell off the rack; his box locks, about 40% of his sales that year from the limited number still in existence, probably were made in Birmingham like everyone elses and finished in London. I believe he made most of his side locks himself. (There are 22 Reilly's from 1884 existing or whose parameters were known through other means - catalog advertisements etc.; 10 of these are box locks.)

You can read the last published version of the Reilly history on p. 94, 95 of this site where all the Reilly research was posted. (This text is being extensively edited as I try to prepare a version for publication at some point). On that same site on p. 57 is the current Reilly extant or known gun list along with footnotes explaining the methodology.

I would very much appreciate seeing photos of your gun. In addition, what are the address(es) on the rib. It should be 16 New Oxford or 277 Oxford + rue Scribe Paris. Paris might be omitted. I unfortunately cannot estimate the value. I'd speculate in the $2,000 - $3,500 range depending on condition but Cape Guns are not a much known quantity. You might get an idea if you post it on Doublegunshop. I could do it for you if you'd like. I'm wondering if Trudeau's decision to ban all rifles in Canada would effect your gun?

As for history: The first advertisement for a Reilly cape-gun was back in 1858: - this snippet from latest edit of the history:

. . . . .1861: Cape Guns:*46i Reilly was one of the first to advertise “Cape Guns” (22 May 1958, “The Field”).*46i(1) The earliest extant serial numbered Reilly cape guns are:
. . . . . . . . . .SN 12207 - late 1861: E.M Reilly & Co., (address not legible); SxS Cape gun; 17 ga/.488 cal hammer gun, muzzle loader.*46i(2)
. . . . . . . . . .SN 12251 - early 1862: E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London; SxS Cape gun 25 bore/.500 cal; percussion hammer gun.*46i(3)

The last extant Reilly Cape Gun is this New Zealand gun which unfortunately did not include the Serial Number. I believe it is contemporary with yours:

http://gunauction.co.nz/catalogues/38.pdf
New Zealand

169 - CASED CAPE GUN
A very fine cased Cape Gun by English maker Reilly. 30" 174 Side by side damascus barrels, 1 in 12 guage the other is rifled in .577 express cal. The rib between the 2 barrels is marked E.M.Reilly & Co with London & Paris address. Also has 4 engraved leaf sights and full swamping, plus London proofs underneath. The action also marked Reilly & Co and is borderline as well as scroll foliage engraved over most of the action including the hammers, top underside and lever. Excellent condition chequered Walnut stock and forend. The metalwork retains quite a lot of original browning on the barrels and thin original blue on the action and steel trigger guards. Included in its red leather bound case with trade label are dummy rounds, 175 cleaning rod, tools & reloading tools, oil bottle etc.
V.G.W.O.& C. A.L.R.

There is always something to learn about these guns. Proofed twice in London? The miss-stamping on the right barrel changed from "20445" to "26445." I understand the "25" on the right barrel (50 cal. .577) and the 12 on the left for the shotgun...but what is that "18" all about? and the bit in the square? I can ask for better photos.

That is a rather unique piece, but I don't know if I would think it is a highly desireable piece. I own a few cape guns, and they understandably are European. This gun has rather plain engraving and wood work. There is also something odd about the Damascus welds which are internal to the fore arm/action. It may be an optical issue, but it looks like the welds weren't completely struck or removed. The biggest negative would be the obviously terrible amateur resoldering of the rear of the rib.

I have several German cape guns with more and better engraving, platinum inlays, better wood and metal and better overall condition. I purchased several of these for less than $2000 delivered in the past year. One was a Sauer underlever from the same period that looked much better, materials and workmanship were to a higher standard, and it was chambered for a 16 gauge shotshell/20 gauge "bore rifle" combination. It was in like new condition and was well under $2000. I will have to say that some of this was due to the general confusion over the rifled barrel chambering.

Unless you found a buyer that was a Reilly fanatic or obsessed with owning a British Cape gun, I think the gun would be in that range.

Is the owner sure about the chamber length of the rifled barrel?

12 bore and .577 Snider (2 1/4 inch case) was a popular combination for British Cape guns, the military cartridges being widely obtainable throughout the Empire.

I note it has a push forward under lever rather than a Jones screw grip.

Interesting observation on the Damascus welds. It was wondering about the top rib. There is no name/address on it. Usually this means it was sleeved or rebarreled. But clearly these are the original tubes for the gun.
Also there is also only one sight - the New Zealand example has three. Is it possible the rib was relaid at some point?

The pattern is a 2 Iron variant of Damas Rosen, with prominent ribband edge (straight) and rod-rod (wavy) welds, which was often acid etched. I can't tell for sure but the barrels may have been lightly "pickled" to enhance the pattern.

Marholdt Waffen-Lexikon

The .577 Snider was, for sporting purposes, a short range cartridge. The 1960’s Kynoch catalogue showed a drop of 13” at 100 yards and 57 inches at 200 yards for a 480 grain bullet at 1,250 fps muzzle velocity.

For military purposes with ladder sights it could be effective at much longer ranges, but when I had a 3-band Snider rifle it became clear from shooting at paper targets that the steep rise and fall of the bullet, even at moderate ranges below 200 yards meant that it would be very easy to shoot over or under the vital area of a deer.

The fact this rifle has a single leaf (for 100 yards ?) indicates to me that it was probably built for the Snider cartridge.

If it was rechambered for an express round early in its life that might explain the apparent double set of proof marks.

Thank you Mr. Parabola...a very logical explanation for the chambering and the two proof marks and to Dr. Drew for the Damascus pattern. Now about that "18". If the rifle barrel were rechambered for 3 1/4 shortly after purchase and thus reproofed (same proof marks virtually), is there a chance that the shotgun barrel was originally an 18 gauge then bored out to 12 on reproofing?

Still curious about what's in that "square." It could be the post 1887 diamond with 12c in it? I can ask the owner if the shotgun barrel is choked but it would have had "not for ball" in the original proof in 1884 which should survive somewhere. (Unless when rebored from 18 to 12 it were bored with a choke?)

Gene,

Going up from 18 to 12 would be a large jump, and would presumably involve re-chambering from a 16 bore case to 12.

It is far more likely that we are misreading a poorly applied 13 bore stamp, a common bore size then for guns built for the 12 bore cartridge.

A clean up of the .719 (+?) 13 bore tube prior to re-proof could easily take it up to .729 for 12 bore.

If you consider the orientation of the numbers within the “square” is simply the standard 12-bore chamber stamp rotated 45 degrees to fit the space avail.

This gun has been built with the external lines and presumably the weight of a 12 bore shot gun.

The 2 3/4 Express example in the New Zealand catalogue is built like a double rifle with pistol hand stock, sling eyes, Jones under lever and Express sights.

As unsual Mr. Para is right about the 13. Here are pictures. 12c is in the diamond. Based on this I'd estimate the gun were bought in 1884. Sometime after 1887 the rifle barrels was rechambered and the shotgun barrel honed out. The shotgun barrel measures .724 at the muzzle. But it it were honed to .729, that would mean there is .005 of choke.





Here is the Canadian owne'rs story of the gun and some more details.

The 18 is actually a 13 and the square appears to be 12 over 6 or c ? . As for the s/n on the sg it looks like it was upside down and then re-stamped [these pics show better] . The bore size at muzzle is .724 in [cyl bore ?]. Also originally there were addresses on the barrels , but i do not recall which one. Now for the rest of the story.

I acquired this old gun at least 10 years ago from a very elderly lady whose husband had been gone many years. He was originally of English origin and this gun was his parents/grandparents . The story she told me was that his relatives had left England and had purchased this Cape gun to go and live in South Africa . After some time they moved to Canada . The gun was mostly discarded and lived in an outdoor shed for over 40 years and was eventually stored in a closet in the house that she lived when i got it. The condition was terrible. The stock was completely broken off behind the trigger guard and the action and hammers were rusted almost solid. It took me months of soaking and building screwdrivers to fit he screws.The barrels and parts were soaked in a liquid i got from a gunsmith here which removed a great deal of the surface rust basically leaving it black . Before this the only indicator of the Damascus was under the forearm. I was then able to locate a fellow who uses a method similar to the one featured in the Double gun Journal to restore the finish on the barrels. This is when the addresses were lost as well as some loss of material at the rear of the barrel fillet.

If the cartridge shown above is the proper one for the rifle, it is neither 577 Snider nor 577- 3 1/4". Rather, it is 577- 2 3/4", it seems the confusion results from measuring the overall length instead of the case length to arrive at the longer designation. The idea that 577 Snider may have been the original chambering has at least, some merit. Cape guns bound for South Africa were very often chambered for the military cartridge at the time, which would be available for issue if the owner were "called up" for service. After the service cartridge changed to 577/450, the owner may have decided to rechamber to a more powerful cartridge, or a subsequent owner may have. This is speculation based upon reasonable assumptions.
Mike

Thank you gentlemen. The Canadian owner added this: "The British contribution may be correct or not, regarding the cartridge . I have the 577 BPS 3 1/4[overall length, the brass is 2 3/4 in] and it is correct [although it is a Nitro cartridge, same size]."

It looks like the rifle cartridge is the correct size. But the gun was not proofed for nitro when it was rechambered, which in and of itself would date the conversion to between 1887 and 1896. I still can't help him much on value....It looks a rare gun but not collectible?

Looking at these two images, it is not apparent to me that this cartridge fits this rifle. The cartridge is way off center in the chamber and the rim looks to be almost the size of the chamber walls. The Snider and .577 both share a case head with the 24 gauge. I am remembering when I bought the gun I mentioned. It was adverised as "likely a 577 Snider". but turned out after much research to be a bore round of 20ga x 1-5/8" (actually 20 ga x 40mm) a german round. Turns out there is a whole series of these at varying lengths.
It would be of interest to slug the bore of the rifle barrel. I think that it would be more likely to be a 577 of some sort, but it really looks like an awfully sloppy fit. The Snider I believe ended military service in 1872. I have an 1872 commercial BSA Snider carbine. It has a very tight bore and shoots a 570 round ball best. The cape gun I bought has a bore near that and shoots a 16 ga ball best. I use .660 balls in it. With a longer case it would have substantial power. If it were mine, I would quickly check to see if a standard 20 gauge hull will go in the chamber, then slug the barrel with a couple of round balls to see what fits. You should be able to source 570,600 and 660 to try.

Whoops, I made a typo. I use 16 ga balls in the gun, but they are not full 660 bore size. They are balls designed for use in a choked 16 ga. They fit tightly in a 20 gauge brass case and expand into the rifling of the barrel.

Thanks, I've passed all this on to the owner. It is appreciated...and I learned a lot too.

Just as an aside, there is a Reilly on GunBroker right now, ser # 237xx that makes this one look infired. Looks to be heading toward $150 when the smoke clears.

The 577 Snider is notorious for being loaded with bullets undersized compared to the barrels. The first ones were conversions of the 58 caliber Enfield, which used the 58 caliber Minie bullet that was considerably smaller than even the bore diameter (much less the groove diameter). The reason the Minie bullet worked in the percussion Enfield was because the black powder charge caused the hollow base's skirt to obturate to fit the groove diameter, with room for black powder residue. The original Snider bullet was likewise smaller than bore diameter and also depended upon obturation of the bullet to fit the barrel. Smokeless powder will not satisfactorily cause this obturation (with safe charges, at least). I found that even to cause ignition of light NFB loads in my converted Enfield I have to mechanically expand skirts of Minie bullets to at least .620" with a self-made punch and ring to limit the amount of expansion. This necessitates leaving the cases " as fired" and with a neck diameter larger than a "factory" cartridge, as observed by AGS above.
Mike

The Reilly on Gunbroker is 23107. It's in bad shape.



There are 5 Reilly's in the Holt's silent auction catalog. I am now up to 575 serial numbered Reilly guns whose parameters are known for the database on p.57 of the Reilly line. It stretches from SN 88 (1829) to 35678 (1911). This is out of about 33,000 serial numbered over the life of the firm. That is a healthy sampling for research purposes.