Concepts of Best Gunmaking
Defining an Emigma

Excellent article. He is probably the most articulate gun writer today and very persuasive

What? No link?

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine

This may ruffle some feathers. Good read.

"This is also where high-grade pre-WW1 American side-by-sides fall down. Though they were often highly embellished externally, with beautiful chequer panels and gold-inlay, internally they were at the level of a mid-grade Birmingham boxlock, at best."

Knowing Dig, it was not written with that intention. It was intended as information only, and may well be true. The question to be considered however is, is that not good enough? When any well cared for examples of either, or both, can be shown to have functioned perfectly for 100 + years, why is better needed? It isn't. But, it may be desired, and that should be a different line of reasoning, IMO.

Enjoyed the articles but was hoping he would go further in depth into load development on that Nitro Paradox

This thing of a gun having soul as described in the article is interesting. I would call it lively balance and handling rather than soul.

Back in the 70s or 80s a writer in the British magazine Shooting Times detailed how he searched intently for such a gun and how he passed over several top English names to settle on a machine made Bernardelli Elio 16 gauge as the best balanced and best handling gun. For him the Elio was obviously best.

Still at it
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=134538

March 2009 Sporting Shooter, "Born In The USA"
The typical collector in the US looks for a factory original, mint condition example of a gun by the likes of Le Fever (sic), Parker or LC Smith. The fewer made, the more collectable, the more original condition, the more it will cost. Quality hardly comes into it. A basic grade Birmingham trade boxlock surpasses all these in terms of mechanical integrity, design and manufacture. If you want to upset an American show him a high-grade Parker, then show him a Purdey, and watch him blather on about nostalgia and patriotism and grandpa's homestead.

Helpful price comparisons are here
https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/pub?id=1OTND2bQH0vhlbCf7c2sN8H1vzmT7xagUSXhewGB03SE

Prices of the lowest grade American made doubles in the 1897 Sears Roebuck & Co. Catalogue:
Parker GH - $51.20
Smith No. 0 - $31.75
Ithaca No. 1 - $26
Remington 1894 A - $33
Baker B - $31.75
Fine guns listed included the Daly 150AE at $129, 250AE at $190, Greener No. 3AE at $187.50, and Facile Priceps at $93.75.

The 1906 William Read & Sons Catalogue (courtesy of Daryl Hallquist):
“Highest Quality” Westley Richards with single trigger - $595
W.W. Greener G70 “Imperial” - $500
W&C Scott “Premier” - $375
W&C Scott “Imperial Premier” - price on application
Purdey - 89 pounds 5 shillings sterling - about $446
Joseph Lang & Son “Highest Quality” sidelock ejector - 65 guineas
Parker Bros. AAHE - net price of $318.75
Lefever Optimus - $280
Remington Special - $750 = about $25,000 today
Hunter Arms' list prices
L.C. Smith Monogram AE - $365
L.C. Smith A-2 - $390
L.C. Smith A-3 - $740

Blather on

Diggory is a fine man. He is intelligent, energetic, running several shows simultaneously, evaluating guns for prospective buyers, selling and restoring guns, writing the journal as well as actively shooting his guns. He is knowledgeable. David Trevallion believes he never worked on the benches but also that he has a comprehensive academic knowledge of British guns. Vintagegunjournal.com is probably now the best place to read about SxS's with the demise of DGJ (and he had a couple of very complimentary articles about that DGJ at the time).

He has been extremely helpful to me, publishing the original Reilly history in two parts in August/September 2019 and later the "dating Reilly" chart as well as regularly forwarding queries he receives on Reilly's based on the Vintagegunjournal.com article. He introduced me virtually to Mark Crudgington to research and discuss more questions which later influenced the subsequent Reilly history in the 1850's. His two articles on the life and death of Cyril Adams were well done.

Nevertheless, there remains at times a British condescension towards America. This is inbred apparently. Last February he published a pretty insulting review of a Texas gun show, commenting on everything from the wares to politics to the masks people weren't wearing. I sent him a note saying the article was inappropriate and since I can't find it, it may have been deleted.

This said. It is what it is. Everyone has their prejudices. These are unfortunately wide-spread amongst the British upper-classes (and amongst the Parisian French). It does not diminish the excellence of what he is doing. Just be aware that there will be occasional zingers like this. Don't take them personally. It is an opinion. Gene Williams

A gun having "Soul", I fully understand the meaning as I can attest to having that personal feeling with English Best guns. I once went down to a local gunshop as I had been told by the owner, he had just received an HJ Hussey. Thinking I may have serious interest I packed up a couple of Parker Repro's I had in the safe.
When I arrived, I immediately could tell by handling the Hussey that it seemed to have something special. Whereas the Parkers being machine made guns just felt like lumps of metal in my hands.
Sometimes you can feel the "soul" in a gun that had numerous craftsmen work on it and made it special. And the previous owners that had carried the gun.

Not too long ago, I purchased a 16 GA H&H boxlock. It was turn of the century with a set of new barrels by a Scotish maker, so the rib was new. I am certain from the action marking (H&H) that it was one that was their lowest grade boxlock and only finished and adjusted by them, not fitted and finished like the boxlocks marked with the full name. I took it apart to clean and check, and was amazed. I literally had the thought that I wanted to find some way to display this gun with the lockwork shown. It was one of the most incredibly well finished and beautiful pieces of gun work I have ever seen. I purchased a Whistler about the same time. He was a Silversmith and "Gunmaker" who procured and marketed guns. The engraving on the boxlock was vey simple but a thing of beauty, as was the fore end tip which was small and engraved Sterling. I am sure it was from his shop. I am equally impressed by the almost perfect handling qualities of this whole class of guns.

On the other hand, I enjoy shooting them and experiencing their performance, but I recieve no visceral experience from them. I can't in my wildest dreams connect with the past experiences of the history of those guns. I can't place myself in the role of the people and culture who used them and really don't want to on a lot of levels for a number of reasons. On the other hand, when I hunt doves or quail with a vintage Parker or Ithaca, I am immediately taken back to my childhood in the late 50's and 60's when I started hunting with my dad and his friends, almost all of whom used plebian guns as strong as tanks and just as handy. Occasionally we would hunt with a someone who had and could afford serious hardware (and was good with it). They invariably owned a Parker, Ithaca or Lefever (but pointedly in our area not an LC Smith) and I spent the day wishing against any hope that I could own one. Those are still the guns that trigger an almost out of time experience in me when using them. Those are the guns to which I really become attached.

I buy and enjoy both types, but for different reasons and with different reactions. I believe that collectors are driven by location, society, history and life experiences and that there is always some one over riding trait that internally drives them (collectors, not dealers) to their opinions. Whether it is technical perfection or the experienceof the ownership, some internal drive dictates our views.

The British think they are better than everyone else . . . But they aren't

We did make the best guns tho`.......

... and we can run elections properly using paper and pencils...

HB

Given that your last Prime Minister lasted less than 2 months, do you really think you can be smug about your government or political process?

It’s a fine political process. A boob got to the top and was disposed of in less than two months. How long have you had Biden, the senile old fool. How long was the corrupt Nancy Pelosi speaker of the house?

I find it laughable that otherwise sane, intelligent people go down this wormhole of a discussion trying to compare the output of American factories to the best guns made in various parts of the UK. And elsewhere for that matter. There is a giant difference between collectibility and quality. Sometimes those qualities align in the same product but often they don’t.

Diggory should be applauded for articles that he is making available to us all,they have proper content and are unparalleled in the UK media ,which is just a product placement device . Thanks, Diggory !

His books are pretty good too - I have all three.

KIng'charles.

KIng'charles.

well, dim thievin, lime suckin lobster backs do make some fine guns and superb women...

PS I like Dig’s articles

I have met and spent a little time with Diggory. He's a cool dude, even if he did think me a little weird for being interested in a Colt doublegun at the auction house.

Lol. I’ll knock both of you oot.


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Couple o fruits. (U2 canvasback, fookin’ Canadian fruit)

The assumption that utility grade products cannot have any artistic or collection merit is, I think, wrong. For anyone interested the reasons are set out in this article on art influences in shotgun design:

http://oplognosia.com/?p=9471

It is interesting that American collector interest focuses almost exclusively on what were mediocre attempts (not my opinion, see DIggory and others on that score) to copy European guns made for a very small minority of Europeans who indulged in driven game shooting. European production intended for the majority included some very crude crap, like Belgian folding guns and boxlock scrap grade shotguns that cannot stand comparison to affordable American guns of the same period.

Maybe there are US collectors who appreciate the Art Deco lines and mechanical ingenuity of 1920s shotguns, but so far I have not come across any. Personally I would rank a Stevens 620 way above any Belgian scrap grade boxlock from the 1930s even if it has the model name "Gamekeepa" on the barrels.

Shotgunlover, Thanks for the article! Very interesting. Also, many fine comments in this thread. There is room for all in this big tent.And I am sure some of the most sophisticated of you started out with simpler and cheaper collections. tmc

Honoured to be lumped in with Stan and Diggory. Good company!

I've read that American Indians counted the greatness of a brave by the strength of his enemies. By that standard we've got nothing to brag about, canvasback.


Molon Labe.

Bwahaha! I like that one Stan. Going to remember that.

Heard tell some fellers said something similar 158 years ago today.

“Those people made war on us, defied and dared us to come south to their country, where they boasted they would kill us and do all manner of horrible things. We accepted their challenge, and now for them to whine and complain of the natural and necessary results is beneath contempt." - William T. Sherman

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sherman an his lawless horde have always been known at best as spoon stealin pyromaniacs...

an now add hippocritical lier to his core de vitum...

On November 15, 1864, Union General William T. Sherman begins his expedition across Georgia by torching the industrial section of Atlanta and pulling away from his supply lines. For the next six weeks, Sherman's army destroyed most of the state before capturing the Confederate seaport of Savannah, Georgia.

Bwahaha!


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First born Jimmy duckling, first born Jimmy duckling.