I just bought a Manufrance Simplex on GB (only bidder). The details were a little sketchy but I took a chance for the price. I like British/European singles in the better grades.

I was wondering if anyone has a source for Manufrance catalogs. I found a few for sale on the net, eBay etc, but they are all French and for sale there. It doesn't appear that these have been reproduced like other catalogs, and the available ones are scarce and really pricey.
I found a copy of a 1919 catalog on eBay France that pictures what looks to be exactly the gun I bought, but the photo of the catalog page is not very sharp. Any one who knows of a source for a prewar catalog at a reasonable price, I would appreciate the info.

The gun I bought is in decent condition, with pretty extensive engraving, really good quality wood, and in 16 gauge. It has no safety, which I believe means 130 or earlier construction.Some of the other catalogs I saw for sale showed these guns available as single shot rifles, some in some really healthy calibers. That would explain the robustness of the action and the heavy monobloc construction. I did notice in the 1919 catalog that some guns were made with exposed hammers, and the action design had a removeable top plate that allowed a hammer spur to protrude. The later guns (50's and later) in the pictures I have found appear to have a sort of plate extractor at the breech which extends past the action side for manual extraction. Kind of ungainly looking and not of the same quality finish as the old guns.

When I get it, I will post some pitures for comments.

A few quick comments. More details will have to await pictures; FAB500 will likely comment too.

Manufrance early records were lost in a flood in the 1930's? However, there has been a lot of research on early models:

Jean-Claude Mournetas wrote very well known books on Manufrance including the "Ideal" and the "Robust." These volumes included charts to date the guns by model number:
https://www.leslibraires.fr/livre/1...l-de-la--jean-claude-mournetas-pecari-ed
https://www.amazon.fr/Fusil-Robust-J-C-Mournetas/dp/291284861X

The charts are posted on this line p.10 & p.11:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=488406

He also wrote on "The Simplex" here which I'll try to take a look at: (Canvasback on this site might have the book; he had both the Ideal and Robust books; Gil - GLS - certainly had both) - Note "roi des fusils à un coup" - King of the single shot:
https://www.eyrolles.com/Accueil/Livre/le-fusil-simplex-9782912848048/

This advice from another site: "If you remove the butt stock recoil pad or plate the date of manufacture will be stamped on the end of the wood stock..."

I would be willing to translate selected articles from the catalogs if you can identify them. On the other hand once photos are posted, FAB500 might point us more to the correct year.

Incidentally, this also from another site - cannot vouch for it but it sounds right:

"Simplex shotguns are made by MANUFRANCE since 1908. They are still made. These guns were widely used when using conditions were bad or very bad:sea side,equatorial Africa,south america(Guyana...) because they were sturdy and inexpensive.

Let me tell you one use :the gun was loaded with a cartridge cut just over the wad ,then a wood arrow of the bore diameter with iron point was introduced by the barrel muzzle and the gun was fired in order to kill ....elephants!! Of course the shooter had to fire point-blank and run or climb a tree very quickly!! Just to say the guns were sturdy ones. Another type of users were people without a lot of money and youngs.

First this shotgun was only produced in 12 and 16 gauges but a few years later in 20 and 24 gauges for youngs. In the other side,10 gauge (for waterfowl),and rifled barrels in 375HH ,305 WCF...,the action was strong enough to accept these cartridges. After 1920,the barrel had a tight full choke,before the barrel was less choked. In 12 and 16 gauges the chamber length was 65mm during the 50 first years of production,then it was 70 or 76mm.
The early models had either an outside hammer or were hammerless.The first type was stopped in 1930.The safety appeared only during this year.

The butt pad was iron made during the first years,then horn . Bakelite appeared around 1950. The gun is still made:
12 gauge, 3" chamber, 80cm barrel length
20 gauge, 3" chamber, 76 cm barrels. Both have a beech stock and forearm."

French gun term added to the French-English dictionary:
Monocoup - single shot

 

Thanks for the info. I will check it to see what is there. I had found a copy of the Ideal book available on eBay and it is in the mail.
I should have the gun in a week or so and will post some pictures. As I said, the extensive nice quality engraving and the high quality of the wood suggested that this was a relatively high grade gun. Also interesting was the fact that of the pictures of catalog pages I could find seemed to be geared toward showing the rifle version instead of the shotgun. The one I did find that had some information on the model was 1919 and showed that they used the same frame for both hammer and hammerless, but a blanking filler was installed on the hammerless model. The internals drawing looked like the same hammer was used for both except that the spur was not on the hammerless model.

This was added in edit. Just wanted to make sure you saw it:

This advice from another site: "If you remove the butt stock recoil pad or plate the date of manufacture will be stamped on the end of the wood stock..."

I usually strip and do a clean/lube/inspection on guns I acquire. I will pull the buttplate and check. I did find a post somewhere which stated that the grade is stamped under the forend. No idea if that is correct, but I will check that too.

The Simplex single should be here tomorrow. I am going to post some of the sales photos now. I will examine the gun and report any details I can find either tomorrow or Friday.

Nice looking wood. Gil

Yeah, that's one reason I bought it (sucker that I am for Walnut). The wood and the pretty nice engraving are what makes me believe this is a relatively high grade. I have never seen one in person, but I have seen a dozen or so in pictures. I have only seen 1 that I thought was a higher grade, with somewhat more engraving. It was, I believe, reported to be marked as a Model 86, but that may not be correct. I will hopefully look for a model number tomorrow.

Nice looking gun, sleek...as a single barrel should be. Interesting that it has a straight "English" stock; the French preference was for a half-pistol grip stock. I started out shooting a single barrel US made 12 gauge when I was 14...still have it...it cost $5 at the time and am wondering now how many times I've actually fired two barrels at one bird or clay.

I have little info on the Simplex because we just haven't run across them. There is that Mournetas book but I can't buy it - don't have room anymore. If there is an article or chapter though that you come up with, photograph it and I'll help translate it. Look forward to more. I expect once you get good photos of the rest of the numbers and proof marks FAB500 can help.

There are two books regarding MF shotguns exclusively--The Robust and The Ideal and neither discuss the Simplex .The reason you were the only bidder on the gun was because I wasn't aware of the listing. Superficially it appears to have the same "break action" of the Ideal, but in reality it is different. To open the Simplex, the "stub' on what at appears to be on the trigger guard is pulled away from the action to open the action whereas on the Ideal, there is a trigger guard apart from the stub activated barrel release which must be squeezed towards the grip to open the action with its rising bite. While I've never seen one in hand, the single shot most likely doesn't have a rising bite and is far simpler, hence the name. While the photos show wear, I doubt if the wear was the result of much handling in the field as there wouldn't be the same amount of case coloring left on the action as appears in the photo. As has been noted by others with more knowledge than I have, MF could care less about marketing its guns outside of France and its territorial possessions and somehow that gun made it over here--possibly in a GI's duffle bag after WWII. Gil
PS: I missed Gene's description of the third MF book by Mournetas on the Simplex. Duly noted.

There seems to be a lot of info available on the internet if you are willing to buy old catalogs in bad shape and printed in French, paying $150-200 Euros plus shipping from Europe per book. I wish Cornell would invest in a couple for reproduction, but sales may not be brisk for it.

I managed to copy a couple of pages from the web that are a little informative if you enlarge them.





The first is from a 1935 catalog. By then, the gun had been redesigned into a rather homely style with a thin long action (much like a US hammer gun of the period in profile) with some sort of ejector/breechblock? that sticks up like a piece of plate steel.
The second is from a 1919 catalog and shows one similar to the one I bought. To my mind, it is a much more elegant looking gun (for a single shot), and may have been more robust since many were supposedly chambered for some pretty heavy rifle cartridges. If you enlarge the second picture, you can see a cutaway of the hammer and hammerless models along with a parts list. I suspect the depression in the between years affected their design, marketing and pricing.

I notice that, at least on the pages available, there are no model numbers shown in 1919 but they are in 1935. The 1935 shows models from 50 through 86 and 86S. They almost all appear to have "automatic ejectors" in 1935. I suspect the ejection function was essentially built into the modified action design. I also noted that the Simplex was available in only 12 and 16 and the Junior was in three smaller gauges. No mention of rifles of the period.

As to the listing, you may not have seen the listing because it didn't mention Manufrance. I don't think the seller had a clue about it and simply titled it with the stamping on the barrel. I have seen this several times on some pretty desireable guns I have purchased. I was simply looking for 16 gauge single shot guns when I found it. It had been listed through several cycles with no bids. I have several really classic single shots and was looking for a 16 and 28 to round out the set.

Here is a link I found to an early model rifle for sale in .375 N.E.

https://heldef.ch/manufrance-simplex-a2418/

Here is an early model in 28 Ga. Plain grade but nice.

https://historical.ha.com/itm/long-...mplex-single-shot-shotgun/a/6140-40434.s

I also found an early 12 gague that sold on GI which had a rifled 12 gauge barrel but no sights. I suspect it was one of the few spreader barrel attempts sold over the years.

Looks like this entire model line had a lot of diverse variations over a lot of years. I would think this would be an interesting collecting niche for someone in Europe.

Salut AGS,

Beau fusil qui a l'air d'être dans une grande forme.

D'après la photo 1 on peut déjà le situer avant 1933.
A partir de cette date, la plaque de recouvrement sera positionnée sur le côté gauche de la bascule.

On voit sur la photo 2 que ce fusil a une détente de sûreté qui laisse à penser que c'est un modèle avec éjecteur.
Cette sûreté empêchait tout départ du coup dû à un choc.
La photo 3 explique cela.

Je pense qu'Argo, que je salue, te fera la traduction.

Merci Fab. Rough translation:

Hi AGS

Nice gun which seems to be in fine shape

Per photo 1 it can be dated pre-1933. After this date (1933) the cover plate would be positioned on the left side of the receiver.

Per photo 2 this gun has a safety trigger which makes one think that it is an ejector model
This safety would prevent any discharge from a blow (or shock).
The third photo explains this.

I think that Argo, to whom I send greetings, will help with the translation.

Gene Williams

- - - - - - - - - - -

AGS, I took a look at the catalog pages you posted. There is little in the way of useful descriptions in these blurbs...they are mostly advertising the various types (with names) of steel in the barrels, engravings ejectors etc. The advertisement for the parts might be interesting. Will wait for more photos.

Here is the French version of "Gunbroker" or "Guns International" or "Guntrader.uk). You can take a look at the Simplex guns for sale there:
https://www.naturabuy.fr/rechercher.php?title=simplex

If you need to look up a gun term, our dictionary here is the best....still doesn't include everything. FAB surprises us sometimes as does Passionlachasse.fr, the French version of BBS.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=595336&page=14

Translation of the parts of the Simplex (cleaned up the photo as much as I could). See part 17 of the interior hammer gun and tell me what that is for our dictionary:



. . . . . . .Parts
. . .Mechanical componnts of
Gun “Simplex” with exterior hammers
1. Bascule - receiver/action
2. Devant – forearm/fore-end
3. Clé-pontet – trigger-guard underlever
4. Verrou - lock
5. Chien - hammer
6. Ressort du chien – hammer spring
7. Guide du ressort du chien – hammer spring guide
8. Détente - trigger
9. Ressort de détente – trigger spring
10. Ressort de la clé-pontet – trigger-guard underlever spring
11. Extracteur - extractor
12. Ressort d’extracteur – extractor spring
13. Percuteur – striker, firing pin
14. Ressort du percuteur – striker/firing pin spring
15. Vis-bouchon du percuteur – firing pin cap screw

. . . . . . .Parts
. . .Mechanical componnts of
Gun “Simplex” with interior hammers
1. Bascule - receiver/action
2. Devant – forearm/fore-end
3. Clé-pontet – trigger-guard underlever
4. Verrou - lock
5. Chien - hammer
6. Ressort du chien – hammer spring
7. Guide du ressort du chien – hammer spring guide
8. Détente - trigger
9. Ressort de détente – trigger spring
10. Ressort de la clé-pontet – trigger-guard underlever spring
11. Extracteur - extractor
12. Ressort d’extracteur – extractor spring
13. Percuteur – striker, firing pin
14. Ressort du percuteur – striker/firing pin spring
15. Vis-bouchon du percuteur – firing pin cap screw
16. Plaque de recouvrement – cover plate
17. Pièce d’armement – Arming part or charging part or probably cocking sear?? Never have quite figured this out – someone look at the drawing and tell me what it is.

You can see it bearing upon the striker (or hammer) in fig. 2 of the sectioned views of the guns.

It appears to be a cocking dog... a part of the cocking mechanism that rotates the striker (or hammer) back to engagement with the trigger sear when the trigger guard/cocking lever is opened.

However, the parts list description, "pièce d' armament", appears to translate to "piece of armament". I suppose another term would be "Gun Part". That narrows it down significantly.

Thanks Keith. I had a similar term in the dictionary with a question mark:
Pièce d'armurerie - piece of firearms manufacture ???

I speculated that it had to do with arming or charging or cocking based on this term:
Levier d'armement - Charging or arming lever as on the M-16.

But from the look of the drawing, I'd reckon it must be a "cocking sear." However, I previously had that term as follows:
Gâchette interruptrice - safety sear; cocking sear

There are often several French words for the same term. Maybe Fab can help.

Fab, le term Francais "Pièce d’armement" tel qu'il apparaît dans le catalogue ci-dessus, est-ce la même chose que le mot "gâchette interruptrice?"

I have a few more pictures to post now. From the previous discussions, there is an 8 stamped on all the stock, action and barrel. I suspect this is an earlier version of the later Model 86. I did determine from some of the sources and the copy of Godio's book I picked up that this gun has been doubled proofed at the Manufrance factory. It is fitted with the optional Hercule barrels (the lowest class of them but still rather expensive for the time) and the safety trigger. I forgot to try the action with snap caps but I suspect they are automatic ejectors.

One thing I haven't pinned down is the date. The serial number data has been removed from the Gournet site, and I would like to see a copy if anyone has it.

My pictures are no better than the ones from the auction site, but I will say that the gun really does look much better in person than any of the triggers.

The only flaw I found was a small repaired crack in the bottom of the wrist that seems secure. I plan to pin this with a 1/8" rod and epoxy across the grain. I will install it to a point below the surface and plug it with a dot of black epoxie (shows less than a brown).

The barrels are smooth and shiny inside. The insides are very clean with no wear at all. Use wear seems very minimal. Given the overall appearance, I have a hard time believing the barrels have been honed, but they do measure .669 which is a little large for a 16. The barrel internal diameter is not marked so I can't really say. Choke is .025. Barrel wall thicknesses are ridiculously thick as many St Etienne guns are. They are .060-.070 behind the chokes, .08-.12 in the rear barrel, .15 at the forcing cone and .25 chamber walls. LOP is 13-3/4", DAC 1-3/8" and 2-5/8" DAH. Chamber is 65mm and barrel length is 700mm. Weight is 5#-9oz. The sight picture is very good. It should be a lot of fun on a lazy dove day.

Besides the stock pin, I plan to clean the barrel in and out, steam out some of the stock blemishes and rejuvenate the finish, then call it good. It should be fine to go.

Welcome comments on the pictures.

These two didn't make it in. Maybe a size limit.

I'd best let FAB comment on the proof marks (I don't know what the double "E" in a diamond means).

There is no model number but the arrow proof is by Manufrance factory themselves for finished guns sanctioned by the Saint Etienne proof house after I think 1926? FAB already said the gun was 1933 or earlier so 1926-1933. Most of that imprint is advertising of a sort.

Cal .16 normal = 16 gauge, 65mm chambers (2 1/2").

That choke is pretty tight .0024. - same as on both barrels of my 1926 "Wonder." I am told the traditional French stock of the era had a LOP of 13 1/4"...no idea whether that is true or not.

The serial number 74607 might help a bit though those records were lost and Mournetas' charts for dating the Ideal and Robust concentrated on model numbers. Have no idea what might be in his book on the Simplex.

Anyway a fun investigation and a neat gun. I might have to think about going back to a single barrel. I actually seem to shoot them better.

Very nice checkering. As previously stated, gun shows little use. Gil

Is that a braze on the tube for the buttstock draw bolt? Maybe it broke/cracked when the wrist got cracked.

Single barrels can be great fun. I have a 32" barreled trap gun I play with occasionally on a dove field. Good luck with yours.

Stanton, what is the English name for that part 17 in the catalog? You know gun internals well.

I would call it the "cocking dog" (in an American term, not necessarily English), from my somewhat limited experience. However, what I don't know about French guns would fill volumes.

"Cocking dog" it is confirming Keith's observation and into the dictionary it goes. A "cocking sear" is also similarly described as having this sort of "comma shape." French verb serrer, "to grip", and the noun serre, "claw, talon, grasp."

Yep, there is a braze there. I thought when I pulled the stock off, and my first thought was a repair. I examined it closely and to me it looks like a perfectly square joint cut completely across on both pieces. The thoruoughbolt hole actually has quite a bit of clearance. Some guns, such as three Martini's I have worked on recently have short tang bores and the bolt fits ridoculouslyclose in the hole. I have never seen one of these before, but to me it looks like a threaded tube with the the female threads was brazed to a short stub at the back of the action. The action itself is pretty long, and so is the bolt tang. It may have been made this way to avoid an overlong casting. The bolt hole is not through bored through the tang stub but the piece behind the braze is through drilled and fully tapped . The spring assembly mounted there rests against a solid section at the back. It may have been the easiest way to construct. Brazing was a common procedure in their factory, given the several barrel/breech techniques used for their guns (see the latest book on the Ideal). Also, they were a huge maker of every style of bicycle, so their brazing techniques would have been first rate.

As to the crack, the stock alignment seems to depend on the round rear if the tang and the fact that the entire rear of the action is curved in 3 dimensions. The actual tang section is parallel, so I don't believe recoil would cause a crack near the front of the stock where it did. If the heading was inprecise, I think it would crack at the back. The crack itself is only a little over a quarter inch on the surface and tapers out into the tang inlet. I suspect the crack was caused by dropping or sideways pressure. It is at the very thinnist part of the wrist wood, and couldn't possibly have put enough pressure or force to crack or break the tang without completely breaking or smashing the stock. The tang threaded reciever is a roughly 7/16" diameter metal fixture.

I did not realize Keith had dubbed it a "cocking dog", but I agree. My vague understanding of the term "dog' is that it is used of a part that swivels as it does it's job.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

AGS, your explanation of the brazing makes perfect sense to me, but the braze itself does not look to be factory quality work. I have done a lot of brazing on my farm over the course of 50 years, and I can do much better looking work than that. it appears to me that the welder did not get the parts quite hot enough for the braze to "flow" properly. But, that's just the opinion of someone who can't see the piece in person, and knows nothing about French gun manufacturing.

Cool gun.

Two Piper and his machine shop expertise is missed. Just a comment remembering him at Christmas because you all know you stuff too.

Salut Argo,

Ce poinçon sur le fusil est spécifique à la Manufacture Modèle, filiale de vente de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint Etienne.

Il a dû se produire un souci lors du marquage des poinçons d'épreuve. D'ailleurs, il n'est pas complet.

Pour résumer, de 1923 à 1927, les armes MF ainsi que MM ont les mêmes poinçons d'épreuve.
A partir de 1928, les armes MM ont des nouveaux poinçons comme sur la photo.

Le numéro de modèle n'étant pas inscrit sur ce fusil, on ne peut faire que des suppositions.
Je pense à un 8E antérieur à 1931 ou à un 44 postérieure à 1930.
D'ailleurs le nombre 44 est inscrit sur la crosse au niveau de la plaque de couche.

Comme toi, je pense qu'on peut dire que la pièce 17 est une gâchette d'armement.

Salut AGS,

On est clairement sur une réparation.
Les bascules du fusil SIMPLEX étaient mono bloc.
A partir de 1931, cette partie sera légèrement raccourcie.

Thanks for the reply. If repaired, it was an excellent job with the two parts being faced off before the repair.

I just translated this,


Hi Argo,

This hallmark on the rifle is specific to the Manufacture Modèle, a sales subsidiary of the Manufacture d'Armes de Saint Etienne.

There must have been a problem when marking the proof marks. Moreover, it is not complete.

To summarize, from 1923 to 1927, the weapons MF as well as MM have the same punches of test.
From 1928, the MM weapons have new punches as in the photo.

The model number is not listed on this rifle, we can only make assumptions.
I am thinking of an 8E before 1931 or a 44 after 1930.
Besides the number 44 is inscribed on the butt at the level of the butt plate.

Like you, I think we can say that piece 17 is an arming trigger.

I f you look, there is a small 8 stamped on each of the metal parts. I had noticed that the rather large 44 appeared on the buttstock, with the two 4's not matched in size.
Given the gun, catalog listings and your info, would a guess of a 1930-31 period transition gun make sense? It could have been assembled from parts meant for the two different models. Or, it could have experienced a major failure (the tang stock joint) and a replacement stock installed on a pre-1930 gun with a post 1931 new stock. No way to prove, but certainly believeable.

Your chart would also maybe show the meaning of the double E's previously discussed.

One other quick note. If you use Chrome as a brower, simply turn on Google translate, select French to English, check to always translate and Argo's posts will be converted to English.

Amazing, spent 40 years learning a language (badly) and now if you can scan, you can translate. Fortunately there are a few items which won't work with google translate - photographed articles, catalogs, etc. such as the simplex catalog posted above. You have to translate those items the old way.

Still looking at the advances google has made in their translation program it's pretty amazing. Every person on this board, even if not on chrome (and I'm not), can still scan a text, go to google translate, paste in the text and a darned good translation will appear.

But no matter - still be careful of technical terms. "Pièce d’armement", "Gâchette interruptrice" or "gâchette d'armement" does not = "arming trigger".

I did check the ejector today, and it is a selective ejector. No shot, extracts on open. After shot, ejects a heavy snap cap 8-10 ft. Need safety glasses.

AGS, you have whetted my appetite unfortunately. I have hated to admit this but I shot my old 870 as well or better than my SxS's and this has got me thinking about pointing characteristics...probably why Church 120 years ago created the O/U. I really can't abide that o/u heresy but a single shot .... that's another thing...especially since the family of my wife, the grandfather-grandmother etc. of my children...are from Saint-Chamond a short distance from Saint-Étienne. The always referred to Manufrance as "La Manu."

I fear I will have to smuggle something into the house. I have reserved the last space for the #2 of my 1886 Reilly 16 gauge s/l SxS which is now hidden away by a guy in Massachusetts. But I have that old $5 single barrel legacy gun stored with my brother. Perhaps I could claim it were a Simplex, if I could find a good one, and smuggle it past the gate keeper? Switch and look innocent? Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. ("Ne rien admettre, tout nier, faire des contre-accusations.")