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Posted By: ed good question for our english friends - 12/01/22 10:52 PM
do you have a shortage of 2 1/2 cartridges?

we certainly do here in the former colonies, and even further west over two mountain ranges, until you finally reach the big blue ocean...
Posted By: PALUNC Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 12:58 AM
I recently went to Hull Cartridge web site and sent them a message that it was wide open here in the U.S. for their cartridges. Problem is I suppose is all the UK shell manufactures are only producing steel and bismuth shells now. No lead as it is banned in the UK
Posted By: ed good Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 05:10 AM
well, that explains that...

cept, maybe there are export markets where lead is still legal?

that hull and others might wish to exploit...
Posted By: skeettx Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 06:08 AM
Mayville Engineering Company does not show a lessening on capability.
They are a USA company.
From them I get 2", 2 1/2" ammo and also low pressure 2 3/4" ammo.
10, 12, 16, 20, 28 410 plus other odd stuff
Posted By: Imperdix Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by PALUNC
I recently went to Hull Cartridge web site and sent them a message that it was wide open here in the U.S. for their cartridges. Problem is I suppose is all the UK shell manufactures are only producing steel and bismuth shells now. No lead as it is banned in the UK

Incorrect,plenty of lead 21/2" cartridges available .Lead has not been banned yet in the UK !!!!!!
Posted By: HistoricBore Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 09:51 AM
I agree with Imperdix - there are plenty of 2 1/2" cartridges here. In fact the standard training cartridges for clays are ALL 2.5" (or65mm) length, such as the excellent Hull CompeX loads in 21 or 28 gram loads (that's 3/4 or one of your old Imperial ounces.

I have just come back from shooting high pheasant in the Scottish Borders with my Webley 600 and Hull High Pheasant cartridges, using 30 grams of size 5 lead shot. Works fine. Anything else heavier is unpleasant.

There are four British ammo companies active here: Hull, Lyalvale (also based in Hull), Eley Hawk (now under Spanish ownership and Gamebore. All offer plenty of choices. There are now even a few 2.5" cartridges with steel shot, which is a bit of a challenge because of the need for a bioderadeable plastic wad to contain the 30% more bulky steel shot. Hull have a new one ounce load just released. I have used the Lyalvale Earth Wad loading (roll crimp over a wad) with some success, and have some Gamebore Regal ones to try.

So all is not lost!

HB
Posted By: Parabola Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 10:40 AM
If I turn up at our small local clay shoot with a 2 1/2” 12 bore they may or may not have 2 1/2” (65 mm) cartridges on sale so I now make sure I have a couple of boxes in the car. They generally have 12, 20 and .410 on sale although the .410 varies between 2 1/2” and 3” (all fibre wads as it is a “Fibre wads only” shoot).

Generally no problem in buying what you want, lead is still freely available and Just Cartridges will deliver to our doors.

What does surprise me, however, is the level of bidding at Southams and Holts on slabs of shotgun cartridges. Given the uncertainty of age and storage conditions before being put into the sales, and the fact that cartridges have to be collected from the auctioneers there seems to be little margin between prices realised at auction and retail prices.
Posted By: trw999 Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 10:59 AM
Not so much a shortage, but I do find that many shops concentrate on clay shooters. Not surprising as there are more of them.

I have found that I have to shop around to find a 2 1/2" game load, especially for my preferred Lyalvale Express Supreme Game 30 gms No 6 fibre.

In anticipation of the coming lead ban and wishing to build up a stock, I have a notification set up with the Just Cartridges web site for when they get their next delivery of the Bio Ammo Blue (Bioammo Blue comprises of an alloy mixture of Bismuth, Aluminium, Tin and Zinc, producing performance similar to that of lead. Both the case and wad are biodegradable and compostable). I understand that availability will not now be before next season, when I suspect more shoots here in the UK than the few at the moment, will demand using non-lead alternative shot.

Tim
Posted By: HistoricBore Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/02/22 03:40 PM
I have been dismantling and weighing various steel loads, plus one BioAmmo load. Their pellets, of that alloy above, are 15% LIGHTER than mild steel, unlike pure Bismuth, which is 15% heavier/ more dense than mild steel. Shot size 5 measured between 3.0 and 3.2mm in diameter.

I have yet to fire any though. We will see. Should be OK at close range.

HB
Posted By: greener4me Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/03/22 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by PALUNC
I recently went to Hull Cartridge web site and sent them a message that it was wide open here in the U.S. for their cartridges. Problem is I suppose is all the UK shell manufactures are only producing steel and bismuth shells now. No lead as it is banned in the UK

If you go on the websites for Lyalvale (now part of Fiocchi), and Gamebore you will find a statement which clarifies UK cartridge manufacturing industry regarding the pending imposition of restrictions on lead shot ammunition and their problem in facing this challenge as commercial entities.

As for the post above suggesting that an alloy mixture of Bi,Alum,Tin Zinc can reproduce the ballistics of Pb seems wishful thinking .... excepting anybody with basic grounding in physics and chemistry?
Posted By: PALUNC Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/03/22 10:22 PM



Check this out
Posted By: eeb Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/04/22 03:03 PM
Interesting video, but I guess if you have to ask how much you can’t afford a box….
Posted By: Parabola Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/04/22 03:22 PM
Currently Eley VIP Bismuth £1,359/1000 as against Eley Grand Prix (lead) £409/1000.

So on a driven day if you shoot 4 boxes your day will cost you £95 more, which is likely to be a small fraction of the overall costs of your day.

Not that I could afford either!
Posted By: trw999 Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by greener4me
As for the post above suggesting that an alloy mixture of Bi,Alum,Tin Zinc can reproduce the ballistics of Pb seems wishful thinking .... excepting anybody with basic grounding in physics and chemistry?

I do not act in any capacity other than a driven game shot with a desire to ensure I kill my game rapidly and cleanly. I have doubts about the effective lethality of steel shot compared to lead. I also have doubts about the use of steel shot fired through a lovely old English game gun, such as those I use.

I am well aware that tests have been carried out by game shots, in the field, claiming they shot steel through old English guns and noticed no difference from lead. However, I have chosen to look at other alternatives to lead than steel, the lethality of which I have concern about. Although bismuth is clearly the favoured alternative, it is expensive and the more so if you like to use your chosen game cartridge to practice at clays during the off season. That is why I was interested in trialing the Bio Ammo Blue for myself.

In quoting what Bio Ammo say about their mixture (in brackets in my post) I would point out that they say ".. producing performance similar to that of lead." They do not claim that it can 'reproduce the ballistics of Pb'. Pedantic of me perhaps, but I am most interested in the lethality of their ammunition.

Diggory wrote a good little article on BioAmmo Blue last year, here: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/blue-is-the-colour Since then they have started to manufacture 67mm cases.

Tim
Posted By: JohnfromUK Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 05:09 PM
[quote

I am well aware that tests have been carried out by game shots, in the field, claiming they shot steel through old English guns and noticed no difference from lead. [/quote]

Well I have met a few who, in the field, wouldn't notice a difference if there was no shot at all!

Seriously though, the main availability issue here (UK) seems to be for suitable non toxic ammunition (and particularly steel) compatible with 2 1/2" chambers. There are some advertised, but actually getting your hands on a box to try seems impossible. In theory, you can get 1000 to order, but no one I have found locally will sell you just a box to try. I do not want to buy 1000 of something that is 'no good' or on which the wads degrade with time quite quickly.
I have read very 'mixed' things about Eleys "Pro Eco Wads" .......... many not being at all impressed.
Posted By: HistoricBore Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 05:55 PM
I have just re-read Diggory's article, where he states that the BioAmmo alloy is more dense than mild steel. I took one apart last week and twenty of its size 5 pellets (3.0 to 3.2mm diameter) weighed 15% LESS than twenty mild steel pellets (3.0mm diameter) from either Gamebore or Lyalvale.

Has anyone else done any similar tests??

HB
Posted By: greener4me Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 07:08 PM
JfroUK

I think you are mistaken..... to quote me as above.?
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 08:08 PM
Richard Atkins in 2021
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/ammunition/non-toxic-ammunition
BioAmmo Blue...launches a new type of shot that comprises an alloy mix of four metals: bismuth, tin, zinc and aluminium.
With none of the ingredients being so dense as lead, the alloy pellets are obviously lighter, size for size, than lead. 10 Blue alloy pellets weighed 15.4 grains and 10 No 5 lead weighed 19.6 grains. (That is about 22% less)
The crush test figures show the pellets are substantially harder than lead shot...(though) substantially softer than steel, but we must assume that pellets are still best kept away from barrel walls.
Speed of the load was 1371 fps at 2.5 meters from muzzle, which would be close to 1400 fps at the SAAMI 3 feet standard.
Pressure of the 27 gram = .95 oz. load was 8688 psi


https://egunroom.com/bioammo-blue-shotgun-cartridges/
This alloy is softer than steel but slightly harder than lead: using the Vickers hardness test lead has an HV (the unit of hardness) of 45, steel has an HV of 120, whilst Bioammo’s alloy sits between them with an HV of 60


BioAmmo USA
https://bioammo.es/archivos/2021/12/BIOAMMO-USA.pdf
Posted By: eeb Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 09:33 PM
Aluminum is used in the alloy mix?
Posted By: HistoricBore Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 10:45 PM
Thank you Drew. I have just looked up the numbers again, and the relative densities are:

Lead: 11,343
Iron: 7,300

Bismuth: 9,600
Tin: 7,260
Zinc: 7,070
Aluminium: 2,705 only

Until someone analyses some BioAmmo pellets we do not know the ratio of elements used, but if we assume 25% of each then its ratio will be 6,660. This is 59% of the density of lead, or 91% of the density of Iron. My weighings showed it to be more like 85% of the density of iron.

So my hunch remains that Bioammo will be useful in older guns at shorter ranges. It will be difficult to get many into a 2.5" cartridge case.

In any case all this is academic as Bioammo is now sold out here in Britain for this season, according to JustCartridges. Maybe next year will bring some improved loadings...

HB
Posted By: LeFusil Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 11:06 PM
Here’s my unscientific analysis of steel shot…..when compared to lead…..or other “heavy” non tox stuff…..steel shot is in a class all its own when it comes straight up pure SUCK. I hate the stuff. I shoot about a case to a case and a half each waterfowl season and have done so for over two decades. I shoot good quality stuff, I have patterned it, I’ve adjusted chokes, etc to give the absolute best quality performance possible and it still sucks in regards to stopping power or killing. I’ve shot mallards and blew them up like pillows only to watch them fly off. Sad thing is, I know they’re dead birds flying. It pisses me off. I don’t like wounding anything. I don’t sky bust, I decoy birds, shots are within 20 to 40 yrds.
I shoot too many birds to justify going strictly to other non tox. I just can’t afford it. I only use bismuth or TM when I use a classic double on nice days usually late season.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/05/22 11:08 PM
This company is combining ...

Aluminum @ 2.70 g/cm3
Tin @ 5.765 g/cm3
Zinc @ 7.13 g/cm3 and
Bismuth @ 9.31 g/cm3

....... and claim that their alloy of the above is "producing performance similar to that of lead", which is 11.43 g/cm3?

C'mon, man. Do the math. They've got to be playing fast and loose with the word "similar".

Maybe the same outfit that is still trying to convert lead into gold?

In comparison to premium steel waterfowl loads bismuth loads are not that high. Shoot at a couple cripples swimming away two or three more times and the "savings" on the price soon put you upside down. What I never understood is this ..... if lead was poisoning ducks and you had copper coated lead shot available already, which would prevent any contact of lead with the duck's digestive system, why was copper coated lead shot banned, like the old, excellent Luballoy? The shot the ducks were ingesting from the bottom of the lakes and marshes would have been totally undamaged, leaving the copper plating intact. I believed at the time it was all a knee jerk reaction by federal authorities, and over the ensuing years I've found nothing to change my opinion.

The best I've ever shot on ducks was six for six, with my HE Fox and handloaded 1 1/4 oz. Bismuth Co. no. 4s. If you do that with steel you'd better really pick your shots, because extra shots at cripples count against your average.
Posted By: mc Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/06/22 01:58 AM
Well Stan fallow the money on any study
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/07/22 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by mc
Well Stan follow the money on any study


You're preachin' to the choir, mc.
Posted By: JohnfromUK Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/07/22 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by greener4me
JfroUK

I think you are mistaken..... to quote me as above.?

My apologies. I was quoting trw999's post in the first sentence and tried to edit down the quote bit to one sentence. I think he had been quoting you which is how the quote reference to you got in. My mistake - poor editing of what I quoted.
Posted By: mc Re: question for our english ftiends - 12/07/22 01:20 PM
Stan,,facts just the facts
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