I need to be able to communicate with someone knowledgeable about my guns. Not real computer savy. Don't have any idea of how rare or the value of guns.
1928 Browning A-5 16 guage
Parker Brothers Double 12 Pigeon
J.P. Sauer Drilling Double 16 over 7.62 rifle with German Scope ( made in Berlin )
l882 New Baker 12 rabbit eared.
U S Colt 58 Cal. Musket ( My grandfather always said it was issued at Harpers Ferry ).
HELP
Thanks
Can you elaborate more on the Old Reliable 'Pigeon'? You know, specs, condition,.... other interesting stuff. That's Americas NUMERO UNO collectible shotgun brand.
It is in good condition ( my words ) No rust not any pits been kept in a vault. The wood is all good, no cracks. It has a Grade II on it does that mean anything??
Ernie you are going to have to be more forthcoming with details. For example, a Parker can be worth anything from $500 to $150,000 depending on gauge, model and condition. By the way Parkers weren't graded as grade II. So take one gun at a time and provide all the details like engraving coverage, markings on rib and on the barrel flats/action flats, barrel length, case color coverage, gauge, state of all finishes etc. Then some of the very knowledgable people here will be able to give you some idea. Better yet post photos.
Ernie, for info on the Parker you have, go to
http://www.parkergun.org and find the page giving you directions on how to identify what you have. With that info and the serial number, someone can tell you when it was made. Be prepared to furnish all markings on the rib between the barrels, on the flats of the frame, and on the barrel flats. Those markings will provide clues as to what your gun is. Sounds like a good one. -- Ed
By flats do you mean any markings on the side of the gun?? What do you mean by the barrel flats??
The barrel "flats" are the flat bottom of the barrels where they close on the "watertable" of the frame.
Thanks Jerry
Looks like I have a lot to learn. Don't know anything about how to take pictures and put them on the computer and I may be to old to learn. Just can barely handle email.
I can tell you about the double 16 over the rifle. The scope is marked on the top in what looks like a funny shaped box with a top and then a line through the box and then the bottom. In the top part it says OIGEE and in the bottom it says Berlin. On the side it has GNOM 4X.
Both sides are engraved with markings one large one looks like the center of a flower and then has different lenghts of curly lines coming out from the center all over, It has J.P. Sauer & Sons engraved on the sides.
On the top it has J.P. Sauer & Sons over what looks like two lines of little balls with a line through the middle. Two rows of these under the name. The butt plate has a little J in the center of two big S's one over the other. Does this help any??
Will try ti find someone who can do pictures, may take a couple of days.
Thanks Again
Ernie
Tell us more about the Parker.
Don't have it in front of me right now. Will have tomorrow. I am trying to make a list of everything I need to look for so I can sound intelligent when I get back on. I don't know a thing about old guns.
Ernie
Ernie:
Be at ease. From what I have read , so far, you have some nice and good ones.
Just have patience, note all the marks, and get us some pictures. We need to see the whole gun, the action side, the top of the action, the flat part of the barrels and the flat part of the action. Make certain that the pics show all the marks clearly. It might be necessary to fill in the marks with some white china marker wax. Wont hurt anything and will make them readable.
One of the guys will be happy to post them if you email them. NOT to me though !!! I am also to old and dumb to post them.LOL
Best,
John
Here is a good reference about the parts of a sxs. It has some pictures of some of the parts the guys were mentioning. This is the best place to ask questions about sxs shotguns.
Good luck. Some of the Parker lovers out there haven't slept since you posted.
http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htmDuke
Ernie.
I collect early A5's and may be able to help you figure out what you have.
The 16 ga A5 is a fairly common gun. They have short chambers making them unattractive to the average buyer. Buyers that make the effort to find short shells or load thier own are out there, but there are not a lot of them. Most are plain guns with no engraving. If there is engraving on this gun please describe it. Also, look at the top of the barrel and let us know if the name "Browning Arms, Ogden Utah" or similar markings are present. If so post them exactly as written. You can ignore all the small symbols etc as they are proof marks and not important at this point.
Also, post the serial number and I'll confirm the age and model for you.
Jeff
Jeff
Thanks for your offer of help. I am in my office on lunch hour. I did't mean to get anyone up tight, just trying to find out some info. The guns are part of my fathers estate and I thought I would have time today to go get them but due to that old nasty thing called work, it may be tomorrow. They are 58 miles from me.
The Browning was my favorite gun and dad and I often took it out and several times we tried to build up the courage to shoot it but never did. The old 58 Cal. musket was my grandfathers. The A-5 stock has different colored wood-Light brown with a darker checkered wood up next to the gun. Very front part of stock. The front piece of wood is still another color-much darker. It has lots of writting (engraving???) on it. On the side of the barrel in English it has Cylinder 16 Special Steel. In one place it has Krupp-Laufstah ( that's close ) in another place it says something like Fanrique Nationale ( can't remember last word ). In another place it has Darmes De Guerre ( can't remember last word again ). Under this is has something about Patent Defose. The last one I can remember is Herstal Belgique. Not to bad a memory for an old man. Does this help you any?? Will send you seriel number by tomorrow night.
Thanks
Ernie
I take it sxs means the J.P. Sauer?? I took a look at the link you sent me but guess I am to dumb to figue out what the parts are. I just last night found out what a flat and a watertable are, I think. I am going to find someone to take a bunch of pictures and put them on the computer for me.
Question for you: As an old country boy I thought the rabbit eared shotgun would be the one that people responded to. To my way of thinking, it must be older. Is there something about a New Baker that no one likes??
Ernie
I sorta' suspect the markings Krupp Laufstahl are on the J P Sauer, not on the Browning. The Browning should say Fabrique Nationale and Herstal Belgique. That gun was made by FN in Liege, (Herstal) Belgium, but it won't have Krupp steel barrels on it. I don't know about Darmes De Guerre of Patent Defose on the Browning?? Neither of you ever shot the Browning? Sounds like either the buttstock or the forend has been replaced at some time, and that's why the colors of wood don't match. The scope on the Sauer drilling may say made in Berlin, but the gun was made in Suhl, Germany.
FN D'Armes de Guerre is "loosly interpreted" National Factory of Arms for War, which was FN's (Fabrique Nationale) primary livlyhood. I think that should be Depose rather than Defose. I do not know the exact translation of it, but in effect I believe it means the patent is registered or recorded. The term is often seen in conjuntion with trade-marks & then normally reads Marque Depose.
Ernie, I think you would be surprised to find out how old some of those trying to respond to your needs here are. Don't wimp out with the I'm to old bit. The gun with the greatest potential to be of value is that Parker and you have alerted all the Parker collectors or their representatives already. The Baker guns have a few collectors who might be interested and as soon as they can see what you have the information will start coming. Your drilling (JP Sauer with scope) is probably the next most interesting gun and we can direct you to assistance there if enough isn't found here. The .58 Cal Muzzleloader might be better defined over on
http://www.Americanlongrifles.com under the antigue guns heading. Some of those boys over there are amazing with their very detailed knowledge of such firearms. The A5 16ga is pretty common unless you have a highly engraved (lots of artwork) version. If you are as old as I am you doubtlessly have a few grandkids around. If not borrow someones and they will get their digital camera out and post photos for you. We are so old we have little else to do besides check on your progress so stick with it.
Ernie,
It sounds like a neat old Browning Auto-5. It was made by Fabrique Nationale Armes de Guerre in Liege Belgium. It was made under the Browning patent and should be marked Browning's Patent Depose.
The choke is marked (cylinder) and the reference to Special Steel indicates that it was made for export to the US. Guns destined for Europe would have been marked Acier Special (Special Steel in French) It should also have the Browning Arms name on the barrel.
The reference to Krupp confuses me, normally that would refer to a type of steel but that was marked in English so I can't explain it.
The difference in color of the wood is likely to be caused by oil soaking into the head of the stock. As these were mechanical contraptions many owners oiled the heck out of them and the oil drains into the end of the reciever while the gun is stored muzzle up. As oil will soften the wood and make it punky it can be a real problem.
Is the writing/engraving you refer to the words we already covered or are there decorative designs marked on it? The more common designs are vine and leaf type engravings.
Your gun will have short (65 mm) chamber so dont try to shoot standard 2 3/4" 16 ga shells out of it.
This is the kind of gun I am most interested in and hope that I may be able to learn more about it. Thanks for sharing it with us,
Jeff
To: Jeff Mull-Jerry Lape-2-piper-Chiefshotguns-Randy Duke& John Mann:
Thank you all for your imput. See as follows:
Jeff- the A-5 has all the writting ( except the Krupp-Laufstahl)Cheifshotguns was right that wording is on the J.P.Sauer. It has no engraving but does have the wording Browning Patent Depose on it that someone mentioned. It has no writting on the top of the barrell as it is what I call a rib barrell. The seriel number is 45613 FN.
The Drilling- Both sides are engraved-bottom is engraved-trigger guard is engrave. Both sides have J.P. Sauer & Sons Suhl written on them. The breech lever (opens the gun) is engraved. Right behind the breech lever on the stock is a slide piece you would think is a safety but it raises and lowers the peep sight. The scope mounts are the claw type you can see under and use the peep sight. Top of both barrels have Krupp-Laufstahl written on them. The seriel number is 279268. The seriel number on the scope is Nr 122575. It looks like three things ( old, precise, and expensive).
The New Baker rabbit eared is more a plain gun, no engraving but the wood stands out and shines like new money. Right hand side has Syracuse Forging & Gun Co.- Batavia,N.Y. Left hand side has just New Baker. The seriel number is 8103D. Not real sure if it is a D or a tool mark.
The musket ( which I know none of you guys care about ) is again just a plain old long musket with the ramrod. It has U.S. Colt PFA Mfg. Co. Hartford,Conn. on it. It has an X scratched on the stock and another X scratched in front of trigger guard on the bottom. The barrell on this one has some pitting right in front of the hammer.
I made sure everyone read though this before I got to the Parker. The Parker is engraved on both sides. One side has two birds flying while the other side has two birds standing in a field. In the rib it has Parker Bros Maker-Merdith,Conn-Damascus Steel. It has engraving on the bottom and on the trigger guard. There is an engrave metal piece you use to remove the front wood piece. The front wood piece (right in front of the metal) has a crack in it. The seriel number is `136394. Did I forget anything??
There is another gun I forgot to mention and had forgotten about it. It is a single shot shotgun but it doesn't open like a normal shotgun, It has a fancy curved trigger guard that is actually a lever and kind of rolls a block open at the back and allows you to put in a shell. The only writting on it is "Made by the Hopkins & Allen Arms Co. Norwich, Conn. USA The number is 3300.
I hope now I can sit back and watch the knowledge roll in. I have to meet tomorrow with all our friends at the IRS to settle the value of my fathers estate. I would appreciate any imput as to the value of the guns ( Low side please ).
Ernie
Based on the lack of decorative engraving this A5 is a Grade 1 gun. I'll look up the date of production when I get home tonite.
Most of these early short chambered 16 ga, grade 1 guns sell for around $300 depending on condition and any modifications like recoil pads. An auction company or gunshop would offer you less than that (maybe less than $200)as they expect room for a profit margin and these guns do not generally sell quickly.
If it is in very high original condition it might be worth more but not a lot more. The greatest value inthis gun will be that it is part of your family legacy.
Jeff
Ernie:
Don't even think it !!!! I am torn between chuckling or cringing, at this moment.
Be aware that the IRS and the Customs guys know about as much about values as we do. Many know more. They have good noses as well. LOL
Best,
John
Ernie:
The "book" lists your Parker as being a D2 (G grade), 12 gauge with a capped pistol grip stock, 28" tubes, and no extras- made in 1906. Does the Parker have a safety? Are there case colors on the reciever? What is the butt plate?
Yes it has a safety- it's located on the side of the stock. Don't know what you are asking when you say case colors or what you are calling the receiver. Is the grade good or bad??
Ernie
It will take some time and study for you to get the information you want. Be prepared to answer many questions and you must take pictures with close-ups of the parts of the guns which help identify them. You'll get there! David
Ernie, you are trying to deal with too many guns at one time. I suggest you deal with just one at a time. The A5 has pretty much been resolved. The Parker is a G grade which is neither good nor bad. All Parkers are built the same, just some additional decoration on the ascending grades. The G grade is their second grade and is not going to make you wealthy. The question was does it have a safety. Parker safeties are all on the top of the stock, not the side. The gun with a side safety would be the Sauer so disregard the Sauer for now and see if the Parker has a safety or not. Some were made without a safety for specific shooting competition. Case colors are located on the metal portion just forward of the butt stock (the receiver). The case colors sort of look like the colors of an oil slick in the sun. Swirly, muted blues, greens, yellows, reds. The gun originally had those but they wear off easy. Collectors of Parkers guage their value based on the grade, remaining case colors and rarity of a particular guage. This will be so much easier when you can post photos.