Is Andy and his shop in trouble?? Rumor of being thrown out for failure to pay rent???
bill

I hope not !!!! I am about ready to send him a 97 to restore.
Best,
John

Trapshooters.com has a full explanation for Andy's demise --- if you want to call it that. Seems that on the 27th of this mo. the county sheriff will evict him and ATF will take possesion of all firearms --- so the writter on TS.com states. Sad but seems as if he has been spending clients deposits and not paying bills. His partner had to take him to court over bounced payrool check & had emiled some of their clients to warn them that they were being defrauded --- so the story goes. Ah well .... Ken

This is not a good thing. Andy is/was one of the top restorers of Winchester guns.
This is a sad day.
Best,
John

Hear hear ... Ken

WOW!! I was planning a trip up to NY to finally have him restore my most prized 21. Maybe there is more to the story.

If true, this wouldn't be the first time a small businessman has toyed with other people's money.

What will RL Wilson do when he needs some work done?

The info on Trapshooters.com is pretty accurate. As soon as I have a few minutes this evening I'll try to put up a post. If you have a firearm at his shop the locks have been changed and he can't get into the place. the local pd's involved would be UPD and/or Oneida County Sheriffs dept.

I'm pretty p.o.d about things given that I considered him a close friend. More later

Parris George

I was thinking of you, Parris, when I read that post on trapshooters.com

I hope you can get your guns back soon.

Does anyone have a recommendation for rib matting if Andy will no longer have access to his machinery?

Shoot straight,

Bird

Parris, et al:
My heart is heavy on learning that this story is true. Who knows what most men will do when faced with adverse circumstances. Some bite the bullet and stand tall. Some go under with dignity and start afresh. Some find expediency in bending the rules and shove their prior moral sense to the back burner and are found out. This last scenario never fails to harm many more than the man that fails himself. No greater pain can be inflicted on a friend,as well. We have so few that we truly trust and will go to bat for, when needed.
It was on your recommendation that I contacted Andy about restoring my somewhat rare Winchester.
I might offer some comfort to you. The Andy that you knew may not be the Andy that he became. You knew a talented and honest man. Take strength that you have our empathy in having lost the friend that you knew. Be gentle. We are all human and fail. Support the effort to make restitution and make amends. Perhaps the man is not lost.
Best,
John

Amen, john. Well said.

If the Ponzi scheme tale is true, Andy isn't the first Gunsmith to go this route, and I am certain he won't be the last.

I had a simliar fraud perpetrated on me years back - the ATF was less than worthless - the State AG did offer some relief.

Best of luck to any that have been defrauded.

I hope you all have proper bills of sale?
Handshakes and pat on the back deals, won't cut it with those guys.

http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=129875&messages=10

For what it's worth, here's the link.

Might I suggest that if you have a firearm with the above you get a hold of your legal advisor and get a letter off to the State Attorney Generals office asap, Send a copy to your State Attorney Generals office. I would not wait, and make sure you send the letters registered return receipt.

Do it NOW!

Some States treat firearms as trash to be chopped.

John:

Thank you for your words they mean a tremendous amount. At this point I'm feeling pretty raw given how close he and I were. I was one of the people who were in his corner for a very long time and now that trust has been betrayed. At this point I'm choosing my words very carefully.

Eric:

I was lucky in that I didn't have anything at the shop that hurts to much if it gets lost. But it's only through dumb luck at that. Thanks.

Parris J. George

I've had friends not returning my calls....but they weren't sitting on bits and pieces of my gun either. After the second call, I'd be knocking on my friend's door.
The trouble really starts when the big black van rolls up to Andy's backdoor. Rare Winchesters, or crack dealer's Chinese assult rifle - its all the same - they're off the streets.

Damn, Lowell.
Where is your humanity. I remember the time that I held your hand, through cyberspace, when you were facing a very difficult moment.
Now is not a time for outsiders to add pain.
Those directly affected have the floor on this matter.
John

John, I have no humanity towards Andy if true.
No need to sugarcoat this either.
The men in black are hard nuts to crack and his clients should know this.
I feel for anyone with a gun in Andy's keeping - but it sounds like this has been going on for sometime now.
...and now is too late.
Hard times, do not make crooks outta most of us!

I sent Andy a 20 ga SR Model 12 that has been in the family since 1929. No bill of sale on that gun. I will write to New York
Atty Gen for help. Only proof is shipping receipt with SN on it. I guess I'll have to try whatever I can to retrieve gun.

Mickey,
Send Mr. Cuomo a letter, but call the local PD and Sheriff ASAP and send them a letter too. Our AG is not a friend of gun men.

The locks on the door are probably put on by the Sheriff. At least that's the way it is here in downstate NY.

This seems different than when Ithaca shuttered a couple of years ago, they found local FFLs including Les H to take the guns from the repair shop and get them back to their owners.

Spend the extra bucks and get them registered return receipt, It's proof of claim in any court.

I side with John M.'s sage advise on this and I am saddened to hear or learn of anyone who is backed into one of life's many corners.

On proof of ownership, the gun should have been entered in the smith's BTAF record book when he received it. If not, then there is an additional issue for him to face .. one that I hope is absent.

"I am saddened to hear or learn of anyone who is backed into one of life's many corners."

So Andy is yet another victim? I thought he was the crook. Thank God for liberalism.

Did Andy eat at Chili's from time to time? Did he drive a new-ish vehicle with A/C and a CD player? Did he smoke, drink, or have cable TV? I'll bet he did at least some of those things.

Most of us have been on hard times before....but not many of us decided the answer was to rip off someone else. What am I missing here?

"Some find expediency in bending the rules and shove their prior moral sense to the back burner and are found out. This last scenario never fails to harm many more than the man that fails himself."

That's heavy....but here's the deal - the amount of harm suffered by the crook in proportion to his victim is not an issue. In other words, the fact that Andy may be worse off of all doesn't mean the damage he caused others is somehow lessened. That's because his customers DID NOTHING WRONG.

Andy deserves ALL the suffering and his customers deserve NONE of it.

What's really bad is he's not just hurt himself and his customers but every gun owner alive. Do we really need the media and the ATF to have any more fuel?

GregSY:

Read and comprehend !! The harm inflicted on others IS the issue.
As in a suicide, the dead pay no further price on this earth. Those effected will never fully recover.
What is important is not a material possession. It is the bond of man to man, in allegiance with one another, and the expectation that, no matter what, one's back is covered.
When that bond is broken the perpetrator is not so important.
It seems to me that as human, we have the moral responsibility to stand by those that suffer.Not as a result of misdeeds but the loss of that bond of great friendship, respect or love.
If this scenario be true, Andy has not only failed himself and brought himself down, but has brought great harm to many.
All can recover.
With Andy, assuming he is guilty as charged by his fellows, by making restitution, penitence and apology.
Others by agreeing that all men can bend, so far, and break. Their losses and pain will one day be relegated to being stories (painful and sad ones) and a possible monetary loss. They will recover. Recover, yes, but will have a sour taste in their mouths. Not caused by the loss of a property but a diminishing of man's faith in other men.
I will hold my counsel until I see that this man is, indeed, guilty and then do my best to support those that he harmed. I will also support any effort he makes to be a man that stands and makes all good.
I would hope to expect no less from you for me.
Best,
John

Are you offering him free representation counsler.

Yep !!
I would counsel him to stand up as a man and make all right. I would do the same for you or anyone else that recognizes that he be only what he can best be.
Perhaps you are stronger than any I have consorted with, but I suspect not.
I would stand with any man that shows me his mettle and finds something more than self to defend.
I am not too much in my dotage that I can cast off my failings. I am still responsible for what I do and say. It is with great humility that I confess to being imperfect in the eyes of God and my fellows. I would , sincerely, hope that if I were to fail in my obligation to keep my word, that when I admitted same with remorse and regret, you and all my friends will say to me---John, I got your back.
Not much else matters greatly.
Best,
John

I stand with you John Mann on your comments about your friend!

Friends are the guys that screw you the worst...when they screw everybody it gets embarrasing.

Material things are important John, there's a gent here(read above), who may have a hard time claiming his family gun.
To rub salt into this open wound, he's lost his money also.
Btw, not sure a 'smith's loggin is proof of ownership.
They'll be hoops to jump thru, and time spent - that's for sure.
Know this, the small businessman has creative ways to use your money before the job is compeleted.

Let's see, a gunsmith who is really good at what he does. A gunsmith who charges at the top of the fee range. A gunsmith who has so much work, he can't put it out fast enough to keep up. A business being operated at "rust belt" rent rates. Gunsmith can't pay his bills. What's wrong with this picture? He should have barrels of the green stuff. Those who say "There is more to this picture" are probably right.

How many men have you known, that either fell apart over booze, women, gambling or the dreaded drugs, or the worst of all the IRS?

All of their own doing – can’t feel too sorry. This Andy guy systematically stole, connived, mislead and deceived customers (assuming we have the facts) – not sure I am ready to rush to his defense. My sympathy is with the hard working men and women who entrusted their money and guns with this guy.

I doubt anyone on this site will shed a tear if I drink myself silly, gamble my way to the poor house or cheat my way to a date with the IRS – why Andy.

Want a reason to show compassion, love and understanding – go to a cancer ward, a veteran’s hospital, a battered women’s center … there is a difference.

A man must read to participate on this BBS. Is it not understood that he must comprehend what he reads?
Please show me where Andy and/or his actions are being defended.
My empathy is for our friend Parris and his loss of someone important in his life.
We all, not just Andy's clients, have lost and have difficulty ahead in recovering property, confidence or money.
I may be accused of being obtuse, in my writing, and will make effort to be more clear in the future.
Best,
John

I and most of the people on this board knew exactly what you were saying John because we always take the time to not only read but to understand!!!!
All the best

When I started reading this thread with all the talk of black SUV's pulling up out back, I got the impression that the businessman in question had somehow been stealing customer's guns and selling them out the back door of his shop or something. As I read further, it appears he is just another failed small-businessman and has not paid his rent for some reason. If he has been slow finishing up promised work for customers, so what; so has every other gunsmith I've ever employed to do work for me. I don't know the guy but I'm sorry an apparently talented gun-guy may be out of business...Geo

I trust what Parris says about Andy, am very glad my gun is no longer in his shop, and sympathize with the victims of his recent bad choices. It's a shame that they now have to take extraordinary steps to recover their guns. I hope Andy can somehow recover and put things right with those who've sent him their guns and money for work not completed.

I had only one transaction with Andy, a couple years ago. He reblued barrels and frame of my M-21, did a first-rate job in reasonable time, and at much lower cost than I got from Galazan's. When I carelessly scratched the barrels with my watchband my first time afield with the gun several months later, he took them back and made them good as new without charging me.

I called local BATF office for help in recovering my Model 12. They told me is was not their problem. Suggested I call local police.

I'm so relieved that my threats last year were successful in getting my field grade skeet choked model 42 given to me by my step father prior to his passing. A four month job ended up taking a full 13 months with the last 6 months of no returned phone calls. My last message to Andy was to fully warn him that my next phone call was going to be to the local AG office. I received the gun one week later. I would have driven 18 hours to his front door for that gun, I'm glad it worked out. I can't imagine if it hadn't.

I hope all that are affected have happing endings.

A model 42 and an Ipod!

Mark - please Email me concerning the August 11th shoot - sorry for the hijack.

Actually I bet almost all of us would shed more than a tear if you were one of our close friends. I suspect that most of us have had someone that we loved and cared about make devastating bad choices. The fact that it was their own doing does not make it easy on those that care for the person. It can be a heart wrenching, kick in the gut. It is not like you can just shrug your shoulders, turn your back, and walk away as though the person never meant anything. At least not if they were ever your friend in the first place.

There is quite a difference. In the one case it is easy to show compassion (and thus, perhaps, no great virtue.) It a good thing to love and understand those who have done no wrong. All but the lowest among us do that. It is quite another thing to show love to those who have harmed us - our enemies. That is truly difficult. Some people feel called to attempt to try.

None of this says that anyone should avoid punishment or consequence.

. . . and all men play many roles.

jack

Latest report. Just spoke with Utica PD. It seems they, and the NY State Police are going to allow Andy some leeway in resolving his problems. There are some issues to be resolved, but Andy has promised to try to get all the guns returned to their owners.

Asked me to wait a week or two for results. If no good news, then contact Utica PD.

We MIGHT get our guns back afterall.

One can only hope that Andy, or whoever did his books, kept track of every incoming and outgoing firearm to his shop. If so, that should be enough proof of ownership, and should give the shop a place to return the firearms to. Now, the key question is, what exactly is going on at his shop? If he is being shut down by the BATFE, then he will have to send customers firearms back to where they were shipped from. How quickly he sends each fiearm back is probably dependent on how much you pester him to send it to you. If I sent a firearm to his shop, I would try to get a hold of them to find out what exactly is going on. If you cannot get a hold of the shop, do a google search for the police post in his town and give them a call, asking if they know anything and can help you get your firearm back. Chances are we will probably never know the entire story. Its a damn shame if you ask me.

Andy was not shut down by the BATF. It was his creditors. BATF is not involved. He is currently locked out of his shop. Will have to make arrangements with creditors, which he is trying to do. He has promised Utica PD he will try to return guns, PD will monitor situation as best they can. Asked me to wait a week or two to see if Andy keeps promise to return guns. If no returned gun then contact Utica PD.

MickeyD, I don't have a gun with Andy but I'd bet those that do would like to have the Utica PD's number.

If Andy is having a cash problem --- there's another problem he'll face and that's the heavy shipping cost. As I ship every week, I can tell you that the cost can get very heavy ! I'm told that he has his place stacked up with guns from as far back as 1 1/2 years . Seems he'll have to float a loan to pay for shipping. Good luck to him on getting out of this mess & I hope it's due to anything other than bad character/fraud. FWIW, Ken

With respect, I don't think shipping cost is an issue at this point. The owner are just glad to get their guns back and will paid a little more for the service, that said, send it as a call-tag, which is return item prepaid and any major carrier offer this service.

I think I would just wait until all is said and done before I would make any judgement calls. I can't believe Andy, with all of his followers would defraud so many people intentionally. And Jeff, as I understand it, there were two matting machines left from the old Winchester plant. Andy got one and I believe the other went to Galazans. Now whether or not they still have it.........

Jimmy,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the information.

Shoot straight,

Bird

If customers, the Utica PD, Andy, anyone, needs assistance in sorting, packing, proving ownership, I would be willing to assist. No, this is not a free service, but I am available. PM to inquire. I don't think I will have trouble getting references through this site. If Andy hires me, I will not work for customers. If customers hire me, I will not work for Andy.

I don't know if this is feasible; but, if enough of us who have a gun at Andy's contributed to a "Recovery Fund" we might collect enough money to pay for sorting, packing, and shipping.

Any thoughts?

LOL....You want to work for someone who seems to be rather tight on funds right now? Then again, maybe he can pay you with cash he stole from his customers....

I do not have any guns at Andy's so I guess I do not have a major problem. But I hate to see anyone in such a tight spot. If you have ever seen or run a business that just died a slow death your heart can go out to him. You live on a cash flow, it slows down, you start doing things that you would never do under normal situations then it just snowballs. Some here can tell what it is like to live this nightmare. A few lucky ones managed to pull their business through the rough times and fail to remember what it was like to dread the mailman or hate the phone calls from banks, creditors or even friends.

I understand that Andy has had some major health problems and then on top of that his father passed not long ago. Easy to figure out how a good person could get into a difficult situation like he apparently is in at this time. If you have never been in such a tight spot you should consider yourself blessed.

I for one, as many others here hope that Andy can pull himself out of this mess. A reputation is a hard thing to rebuild. Guess it shows how hard it is to stay afloat as a gunsmith these days. The wolf is never far from the door.

KYJon, Well stated!

Businesses fail for lots of reasons. It ain't easy out there! It could be a personal problem or even an employee problem. If he gets your guns back he has not harmed his reputation. If he is young enough at heart he can fix it and start again and I am sure he will get many of those guns back to fix.

Just spoke with the Oneida County Sherriff's Department. There are no Criminal or Civil precedures pending involving Andy's Custom Shop. The Utica PD is involved. They told me Andy is trying to arrange financing to pay back rent so he can reopen the shop and return the guns. Last Friday they asked me to give Andy a week or so to get reorganized. Told me to call if there were no results after that time.

At this point, nothing will come easy. Even with ample secured assets, financing will look for expectations of cash flow, and returning guns is activity on the expense side of the ledger.

Sounds like a stand up kind of guy trying to do the right thing. Give him a break. He has been a very valuable person who has helped more than one person and fixed more than one almost hopeless basket case gun. If I get the chance to send him some business in the future I certainly will.

I may sound like a broken record on this issue, but I am speaking from close personal experience on this matter. Two people I know went down this road. One, I was able to help out at the time and he made it and is still doing well. The second person did not make it. I, like many others, never knew how bad it was for him and he lost everything. We knew things were tight but he never let us know how bad they were. He lost his business, his house, his wife and in the end he killed himself. I do not know if I or others could have helped him enough to save his business and his life but the thought never leaves me when I think about him and his family.

Some people seem to enjoy others in distress or in failure. Makes them feel like more of a success or a winner in life. Makes them look more a small minded looser to me. FWIW

Amen! Give BRO a break and send him a bottle.......

A stand up guy trying to do the right thing? The opportunity for that came and went long ago.

KY Jon - Is this a comment on my post? I meant only that Andy's obviously in great difficulty. My personal experience with him was 100% positive. I really wish him well, hope he can recover, make things right with his customers, and save his business.

Jay

We're all hoping for a happy ending from this sordid mess, and... I don't think anyone's getting off on Andy's problems KY Jon.
Sometimes the small minded looser, is really the broad minded one!

I guess it is an East coast thing. I have never heard of him. Turnbull is the one most usually go to that I know.

Gunflint Charlie

I was not directing a comment to you or any others on this broad. Please do not think that I am directly or indirectly making some snide post about your post. I am just saying that we have very limited information, mostly second, third or fourth hand information. I also wish him well and hope he can make it.

My own post is about two people I knew who went through problems and one made it and one did not. In fact one killed himself, he was so depressed and felt he was such a failure. A tragic loss of a decent fellow who maybe was not the best business man in the world.

To his customers, I expect that those who have decent records of their guns will get their guns back. Pays to keep good records. If you do not have any proof of ownership that might get a bit tricky. Never heard of any claims he has sold or disposed of anyones guns. So if the guns are in his shop, the rightful owners should be able to get their guns back.

Lowell Glenthorne

If you read a few post on this and other BBS that are talking about this you might suspect that a few people are not that broad minded. Small minds like to see others fail. It makes their failures less different and their few success seem even greater. To be fair, they mostly shoot Autos and O/U, so their brains have been damaged by recoil and weird guns. Sane, double shooters, tend to be a little more open minded and wait to see what happens before they scream the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

I've worked for the small businessman, and with small businessmen - and I wouldn't trust them around loose change left on the mail table.
Clients and employees are stepping stones for their profit.
...and then they wonder why they can't get good employees, or keep paying clients.
The loose change gets 'em everytime!

KY....you have any guns sitting at Andys for repair ?

John Mann I believe your writing on this subject was perfectly clear, showed good judgment, and a reflected well on your good character. I understood you completely.

Cheers

Apparently, Mr. W. served a lot of customers well. The adversarial nature of the dealings he's having with his creditors and current crop of dissatisfied customers is ample punishment for whatever he did or didn't do to get in this fix. How bout hoping he belatedly discharges his responsibilities AND gets back on his feet.

jack

It's amazing how some guys land on their feet. I can think of two who have been in a bit of a fix and are still in business, yes, this exact business. One probably because of a situation beyond his control, one a situation of his own making. Unless Andy has a health problem that is not fixable, he will probably be among us at some time in the future, doing exactly what he was doing before.

You are totally clueless and an evil presence to boot. Why do you write tripe like this and deface a fine bulletin board?

Because it's true, case in point!
Take the money, pocket the money, product sits and then laying low - not so un-common of a practice - that's the evil.
There are many creatives ways not on the up and up that causes a small businessman to go under.
This is only one.

Lowell - you have worked for A small businessman or SOME small businessmen. Yes, there are some dishonest ones. I once knew a guy named Lowell who was a thief and a crook. Does that mean I believe that you can catagorize everyone named Lowell as a thief and a crook? I don't believe so, and I'll bet you don't either. Small business people are the backbone of this country. They, as a group, work the longest hours, give the best service to their customers, contribute the most time and $ to their communities, employ the most people, and pay the most taxes. They are the folks that made this country what it was before we started our descent from the top of the hill.

They say only a thief will work for a thief, cuz they know how to guard from each other or steal from each other…I forget. More than likely a person stuck working for some one like that is because they have a difficult time getting hired elsewhere, usually these people have a stained rap sheet that can’t clear the back round check or is too scared (read lazy) to start their own business.

OK the cat's out of the bag.......Glenthorne is the CEO of Walmart!

I was going to post the earlier then just figured I would ignore LG as I usually do(adds nothing that I can see just takes away from this fine board) but the long ago saying so fits !

"Its always a thief who thinks he is getting robbed!"

Lowell you ever noticed how people want to defend someone when they have nothing at stake...


I bet if they had a gun in the same shop they would be singing a different tune.

Homeless - Please reread my post. I'm only defending the small businessmen as a group of people that we, as a country, could use more of. Lowell seems to think that ALL small businessmen are crooks because he's known a few that were. Since I am an honest small businessman, Lowell's comment is a very personal insult directed at me and millions of others he's never met. I could make insulting comments about you and Lowell, but since I don't know either of you, I have no reason to do so and I wouldn't lower myself to do it. Andy's case will, in my opinion, will have to stand on its own. Leave the other small businessmen out of it.

Well, I'm a small businessman so I guess Lowell also has a low opinion of me. Looks like I'm a thief too. There goes my rep. LOL, Ken

Bfrench I wasn't referring to you.

I think it's fair to say small businessmen are no more or less honorable than big businessmen.

Our country use more small businessmen? That's a dead end argument. It's like saying our country could use more African-Americans in office. It clouds the issue with issues that have nothing to do with what's really important. Our country could use more ethical businessmen, big or small.

Greg - I agree with you 100%. I was merely referring to my (and many of my friends') feelings about the "I could care less" attitude presented by many (not all)of the employees of many (not all) of the large chain stores I try not to patronize. Attitudes such as those will put a small business under in nothing flat. I expect to be treated like a store wants and appreciates my business. If they don't want my business, that's fine. I won't be back. I'm just tired of being treated like sh*t when I offer to give someone my business (read hard earned money). That's why I say we need more small businsses. It's not like I think we need to set a quota or anything.

UPDATE: I have three guns at Andys. I believe in data generally in making decisions.
1. Andy is a great, not good, but great smith. He has done outstanding work in the past.
2. The police in Utica, we have talked to them, do not believe that Andy is trying to run off with our guns. They are working with Andy to get him access to his old building to get our guns back.
3. Andy has both health and personal issues. I do not know the extent of them and do believe that there are significant issues that are impeding him from his appointed task. He is either getting divorced or is seperated from his wife. Andy is currently living and working in an outlying area from Utica with no phone service. Upstate NY is a very rural place afterall.
4. I am going to Utica on Friday to retrieve my guns, I hope, and will report back. The police are trying to get the release of our guns so that we can get the repaired. I never gave Andy deposits because he had worked on so many of my guns in the past.
5. All this said there is clearly something wrong. My past experiences go back nearly a decade and he has always been reliable. The past 24 months he has been erratic and hard to reach. There are clearly personal, business, and health issues that are causing some issues.

That is what I know and believe given my interaction with Andy, the police and such. If anyone has a gun I have hope that they will get returned. This is a mess that is for sure. I hope Andy the best but I would like to see him follow through on his commitments.

Regards, Huntersdad.

Anyone that thinks we need more african-Americans in office should take a look at Memphis Tn. City Government.

Almost all the black city council have been indicted for something the black mayor is a crook even had a black female drug dealer working for him.

It's a wonder Memphis Tn....is still on the map.

Is Andy black by any chance ?

We here nip at the heels of dealers who send guns with less condition than advertised, we want names named if pure junk.
If your next gun doesn't meet your expectations, don't think your being ripped off by small business - its just an artistic difference of opinion you've had with the boss.

Are you by chance black Lowell ?

No, his last name ends with 'ski' or 'cz'. Think polka hoopla.

You are too drunk to follow your post in the right topic, as such, that was under the "Gun Dealers" thread.

This one is about Andy and his eviction.

RAIIIID, oh no!

I doubt that Glenthorne is the CEO of his own household.

......