Here's a pretty scarce Model 21, 20 gauge 2 barrel set. 1950
26 and 30 inch barrels. The 26 inchers are Mod/IC and the 30's are Full/Full. Both with 3 " chambers. Nice!



Factory records indicate it went back to New Haven in 1977 to be restocked
and made "Factory New".

So, regarding Winchester Model 21's, is Factory work looked upon any differently than
say any good gunsmith restoration or even CSMC?

I thought CSMC was the Winchester Rep for the 21

Very nice !

From their website,
"Galazan™ has purchased all of the manufacturing machinery, tooling, and parts for the Winchester Model 21 double barrel shotgun from the U.S. Repeating Arms Corporation, New Haven, CT. Contact us for factory original parts, barrels, stocks, etc. for this American classic. Call us if your Model 21 is in need of repair.
Galazan™ is the Factory"

I used to be a huge fan of CSMC.
I've become a little skeptical of the organization in recent times
due to the level of "whimsey" associated with many of their offerings.
Who wouldn't want to own a 28 gauge Model 21 with 32" barrels?

Bob, I recently sold a 30-26 Skeet set Tournament Grade. How much should I have gotten? How much is yours? By the way, this was a 20 gauge.

You first Bill. What did you get?

I’d like to know too.

Nine grand, sold to a friend with a connection to the provenance. It's provenance was more important to him than to me.

I purchased a similar 20 Bore 26 IC/Mod" & 30" F&F from a chap in Idaho via a Gunbroker ad in the summer of 2011 for slightly less than $ 8000. I shot it ( the 30" barrels almost exclusively) for 5 seasons or so, primarily on Doves.
I was never completely happy with the stock dimensions although I did have some 15 straight limits with it. I got it functional for me by gluing some leather on the comb to get a cheek weld I could make repeatable. I sent it back to Enid with George Caswell ( he was down opening the 2016 dove season here.) It moved in late 2016 and netted me the $9000 I told him I wanted. So it obviously sold for more. Condition was @ 85% not refinished , replacement Winchester duplicate pad at 14.25". I had a Cody letter on it , I believe it was an early 50's gun.

I gave less than 10.
Factory restocked and restored in 1977.
With a nice 20 gauge going for 8-10, you do the math.
30” Full/Full is pretty tight for Skeet but a scarce desirable set nonetheless.

So back to the original question.
What’s the conventional wisdom on factory work?

I wouldn’t discount a factory rejuvenation one iota if quality factory work. I have such a gun knowing it had gone back to the factory before I made the purchase. A factory rejuvenation would be worth more than a non-factory rejuvenation imho.

Factory or non factory wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me. It's the quality, not the source as far as I'm concerned. I'm always amused at folks that would pay more for a gun with factory engraving than one with better 3rd party work. Ditto for any other feature. I guess I buy the gun, not the originality.

Factory records have value….no matter what you think.

I suppose they do in some way. But why? Certainly factory records are interesting in their own right, but I'm not sure how they add value to a gun, realistically.


If a gun is restocked by the maker, is that somehow better than if it was restocked by a quality craftsman? Not to me. I'll buy the better gun, not the factory gun. I realize not everyone feels the same way, but I just don't know why.

It is the same way with cars. Some people like to take a 57 Chevy and restore it to be original. Some people like to build up the engine with 1000 HP. Put on air shocks and all kinds of stuff. Both can be great. A Rudolph Kornbrath engraved gun or an Angelo Bee gun looks fantastic. Then again, maybe someone wants another specific engraver to do their gun because they worked at the factory. ......The eye of the beholder.

Never married a female with fake boobs, but know many are very happy with them. I would rather have original, to tarts up, and factory to non factory refinished. And this from a person who re-case colored many guns in my youth. It is funny the British think nothing of having guns re-blacked and metal refinish but we cry fowl when it is done by either the factory or “expert”. Buy the gun you like and all the rest is garbage.

The 57 Chevy isn't quite what I was getting at. I understand what you are saying, but imagine I took my 57 Apache out of the back shed and sent it off to be restored to showroom original condition. Is there something intrinsically better about it, if I sent it to Chevrolet instead of the best restoration shop in the country? Something that would increase its value? To me, all that would matter is the quality of the work, not who did it.

But one cannot go wrong with "buy what you like". I don't buy guns to make money.

I agree 100%. What I am saying is that if something makes someone happy, then that is all that should matter. Right? But now, I feel sorry for Bob Cash. He took the time to show us a sweet two barrel set Model 21 and we hijack his thread all to pieces. So, let me tell you, Bob. Your gun is awesome and I envy you all to pieces, buddy. Enjoy your gun, pardner!! And thanks for sharing..

To add to the conversation.....

I know of a Winchester Model 21 that was passed around to several well-known gunsmiths (who do wonderful work) over a period of several years to fix what was thought to be a basic repair issue. But after each of the well-known gunsmiths worked on it, there were continuing issues with the M21 that didn't get "fixed" to the owner's complete satisfaction, so the owner sent the M21 to the "factory" to have the factory work on it. Certainly the factory would resolve all issues and problems. But the factory wasn't able to do any better to straighten things out than the prior individual gunsmiths that had worked on it. Then the owner was told, "If you want the M21 fixed correctly and stop the aggravation once and for all, you need to take it to Gunter Pfrommer....he will fix it, and you will not have any more problems." I was told Gunter identified the issues with the M21 as soon as he inspected the shotgun....and Gunter did the repairs. The owner has never had another issue with that M21's performance.

Frankly, when it comes to repairs...especially complex repairs...I want Gunter Pfrommer or someone with similar training and skills working on my firearms. The factory may make them, but it doesn't mean they're the best to fix them when there is a problem...or restore them.

You mean like buying a ticket on the submersible Titan to view the Titanic?

In my case I bought a 20 gauge 21 sold in 1941 as a Field grade. In 1946 it went back to Winchester to have the wood replaced and the gun engraved with the grade 6 pattern.
I paid as if it was a Field grade with non factory engraving since the factory records indicated it was sold as a basic field grade.
After purchasing I was able to get the records from Pauline showing it had been restocked and then engraved by George Ulrich.
I feel that in this case the factory work added some significant value to my gun.
I have since added a 410 and 28 gauge barrel set I purchased in the white. Im not sure how much value the factory engraving added but I like to think
It adds a fair amount I Just hope the added barrels which were done 100% correct will add some substantial value to the gun when it is time to part with it.

Well, I was thinking more like guns, and quarter million ticket would buy a pretty darn nice gun. But if you want to catch a ride on a submersible, be my guest. Drop off those rifles at my place for safe keeping while you are down there.

Many, many smiths fix the symptom. Very few have the knowledge and take the time to discern the originating problem first, fix that and then fix the downstream issues.

I wouldn't mind taking a trip on that. As long as it didn't have AYA written all over it. I would want it to be original. Then again, I could take a Model 21 along and use it as a boat anchor, as Pete Hyatt always called them.

You people are trying to mix apples and oranges. There is a huge difference between the local gunsmith putting a front bead on a gun that has been lost and getting original engraving by one of the Winchester engravers in one of the Winchester patterns. If you look at Steve Barnett's website or Jaqua's or any dealer, they are going to ask LESS for a Model 21 that has engraving that is not the original Winchester pattern. Jaqua's had two Model 21s one had the 21-4 (I believe) that you could see was the Winchester pattern, and another Model 21 that says "custom" that I don't believe is an original Winchester pattern and it has been on there for several months now with a fairly low price. So, I believe that if engraving is original, the dealers are going to ask for a higher. price. And if you can prove it with a letter from Winchester, it will command a higher price............Now, someone might come along and see a gun that has engraving that isn't original, they love the gun, the engraving and the lower price and that found a nice gun. You can't tell that person that they got a crappy gun just because they bought a gun that they are going to enjoy and you don't like it because it's not original........And a lot of guns went back to Winchester and got upgraded and there is no proof that they did so. So, you never know. I would never run down a guy's gun that he enjoys shooting if I notice that the engraving isn't original. I like things original but maybe the next guy doesn't. .

I think the time to ask that question would be before buying the gun, not afterward...

... unless you low-balled the seller and offered him less money after telling him the gun was not factory original, and therefore worth less than an original gun with original stock, and had not been refinished.

So the question becomes, what will you say in your advertisements when you flip it for a profit?

So here’s my 20 gauge Model 21 sporting her 30” barrels. At 6 lbs 11 oz. I can assure you, “boat anchor” she is not.



I have always suspected that most folks who insist on using that vernacular have little or no experience
with Model 21’s or boat anchors for that matter.

Pretty is as pretty does. I will never disparage the gun used by the man who outshoots me.

Gorgeous!!

Okay, Kayak anchor then...

As long as you like it.

Very nice gun, indeed!
20 Ga 3" guns are hard to come by. Anybody know when Winchester made their first 20 ga 3" M21 gun?
I'm sure collectors prefer factory original guns. Next best would be repairs/modifications by the manufacturer. There definitely are skilled craftsmen who can equal or surpass factory work but there are also a lot of less skilled tradesmen.

The 20 gauge Magnum Grade was introduced in 1953 according to Ned Schwing's book..

Thanks, Jimmy.