I bought this box at auction last week. The top is quartersawn oak, the bottom is nailed on, and the sides are joined with hand-cut dovetails. There is a lock on the front for which I have no key.

The measurements are roughly 7x13" and about 3" deep

I'm posting here hoping someone has an idea about the original purpose of this box.

(Edit: I found some info on dates: it seems that W. Richards produced guns at his Tithebarn Street address between 1907 and 1917.)

Looks like a cartridge box

I considered that, but I have a hard time seeing it. Most cartridge boxes I've seen are designed for the shells to lay on their side.

would they go upright like in the one picture? (other pictures for size reference)

No idea what it was intended for or when it was made, but I'd have bid on it on general principle.

Regarding having no key... Years ago, I bought an ancient small walnut jewelry box at a flea market for $3.00. No key. Unscrewed the upper and lower lockworks from the box and brought them to an old school, full-service locksmith shop- the kind that can be hired to open bank vaults and whatnot. They looked at it, snorted, and told me to come back the next day. They were able to cut me a key for the price of a hamburger and a side of fries. (Which is, nowadays, the price of a box of premium 12-gauge target loads, yes, but still...)

Woodreaux,
What about rifle or express rifle cartridge's?
Karl

I'm like Fudd. I would have been on it just for the heck of it, also. I would guess that it's just a parts box. If it was first ammo- it would be rolling all over the place. So I doubt if it was for that.

Fudd and Jimmy W, that's exactly what I did. I couldn't figure out what it would be for but it's a handmade oak box with a makers label in it... I never expected to use it as originally intended, necessarily, but couldn't pass it up.

I paid $23 for it, so even if it's just a decorative piece, I'm happy with the purchase. But it would be cool to figure it the original purpose.

Karl, I suppose it could be for bullets, but I can't imagine how they would stack in without rolling all over the place

The problem with that is that finding those kinds of skilled tradesmen is not so easy in this epoch of cheap and disposable. I'm not even certain we have a real locksmith left in Baton Rouge.

On that cynical note... Happy Thanksgiving everyone

Best Quality donut box.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Ted

If the bottom is nailed on it is unlikely to be a cartridge box of any kind. Nails would work loose under the weight of the ammo. The ones I have seen are almost always made with dovetails, or finger joints for the more inexpensive cases.

W Richards Liverpool was a fine maker. Not to be confused with the multitude of continental junkers utilizing the Richards name to capitalize on Westley Richards’ reputation. William Richards was the real deal.

Notwithstanding the nails, my first impression was cartridge box with loading as shown in the veritical shells as shown up and down. I think the bevel is to allow for the rims.

Is it big enough to have once held a brace of pistols? Perhaps there are sign of other partitions in it at one time?

I'm going with cookie box, looks like it might have had a false floor, really important if you don't want 'em squishing each other. It's got the handcut dovetails, but expedited appearing lid and floor? Maybe, someone's gramps made themselves up a neato box? Happy Thanksgiving all.

Agree. Good eye seeing that in the dovetails picture. My thought had been that the bottom would have been slotted into the sides if it were for carrying anything heavy.


The auction house had this listed as a Westley Richards, which I knew better. I didn't know as much about W Richards, except that the name was used for Continental production guns, as you said, and that there was another British maker with the Richards name of good reputation.

Lloyd3 has a W. Richards boxlock ejector that is well above par. Nice long length of pull and the stock bent for a lefty, which, I once was. Having to shoot off the right shoulder has cured the lust I felt handling that old gun, but, you are correct, a fine gun maker, indeed.

Best,
Ted

If it were a cartridge box, it should have straps and handles. My guess is that it may have displayed something that W. Richards sold, possibly not a gun, but gun related. Oak was probably. Used circa 1850 or so. I have a very fine W. Richards double rifle. Circa 1865, it is cased in mahogany,

Exactly what I was thinking of doing. Just have to sort out what gun related things to put in there. it will certainly need to be used in the open position to show the label.

Or I'll hide cookies and donuts in there...

I reckon it is a cartridge box, with 49 in each half. Possibly used to top up the usual box that held 250.
They would all have been placed shot down, primer upwards for faster reloading by your loader.

HB

You may be pleasantly surprised. As long as there are landlords and last wills and testaments, there will be real locksmiths. And making an uncomplicated key from the age of steam was a bagatelle for the guy I went to. The lockworks on your box look to be of the same basic design and age as the one I had finagled.

Is it possible there are pieces missing? Looks like trays may have rested on those ledger boards front and back. No idea what that would mean but they are there for some purpose.

And then it hit me! Perhaps those possibly missing trays had holes bored through them to hold shells. Then the weight would be on the ledgers and not the bottom boards.

If it were a cartridge box, there would be cartridge marks on the underside of the lid and trade label. I see nothing like that.

I was thinking a cartridge box as well. But after an internet search, I don’t think that’s what the box is. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything like it. I did find this example of a cartridge box.

Obviously, the box is simply an early version of this:



Way back when, many items were packed and shipped in wooden boxes that would be considered too costly, too wasteful, and too labor intensive today. Guys could order guns through the mail, and they would be shipped direct from the factory or dealer in a wooden box. Milk and soda pop was delivered in wooden crates. Fruit and other produce came in wooden boxes. I keep some of my chisels and checkering tools in wooden cigar boxes that were fairly well made, and cost only a buck or two.

I suppose that someday in the future, if guns and forums like this still exist, someone may post a Thread here to speculate what might have been shipped in this Amazon box. It probably wasn't a gun, because the box is not lost or damaged beyond recognition.

Now, that's a cartridge box, Dave. I wonder if the oak box smells of tobacco. Lots of makers had backgrounds other than firearms.

I believe the pieces you are seeing are simply there to hold the center divider in place, without having to cut a rabbet in the front and back.



(HistoricBore, you can see that I can fit 7 shells if they are alternating. Not so if they are all heads or tails up.)

There are also screws on the front and back faces to keep the divider from falling out:



[url=https://ibb.co/LvYbKsG]]


I see no signs of other partitions and I don't think it's nearly big enough to hold pistols, unless they were very small.

I don't think I've ever seen a shipping box with an inlayed lock, although there's no denying that we've traded wood and iron for cardboard and plastic in the century since this box was made

Some more interesting things re: the joinery for the woodworkers in the group or the simply interested among us:

The sides are joined by classic, British-style dovetails with wide tails and tiny pins



The top is made of two boards joined by narrow /thin board on each side running in a rabbet (rebate in Brit-speak)




And the bottom is simply nailed on with what appear to be headless, cut brad nails.

The close ups are interesting.

Now, I'm betting that the glued in, rabbeted lid ends are later repairs for the drying splint? The grain on the lid end cross strips seems to have come from newer growth wood, might even be able to see later glue smears on the underside of the lid. The sides of the topside have some taper, but not the front, maybe made by a cabinet maker, used to making panels, drawer bottom style.

No plane marks anywhere, so maybe it fits the era that you noted. While it has hand cut dovetails, they never really look "fine", and the close up kind of looks like it might lean towards utilitarian construction, rather than best effort? Still, neat subject piece.

98 12 bore (7x7 x 2) seems to be an odd number to ship. Would it take 10 20 bore per side so a box of 200?

I'm not sure I have any 20 gauge shells at the house but I really don't think this was a box for ammunition.

good observation on the growth rings. As I'm thinking about it, the simpler way to rejoin the top would have been to attach the strips directly to the inside. The rabbets make me think that, while not fancy or best, the box was not entirely utilitarian.

I had thought about the lack of planing tracks, but wasn't sure what to make of that. Probably speaks to the era of build, as you suggested.

Did you notice the marking gauge lines? They are faint, but present. I love seeing the remnants of hand work

Just purely fun guessing. By era, I think the boards were machine planed? The box lid, to me, is a problem. I am still guessing it's a later repair, not only because of the split, but it might not have been laying flat. The rigid cross grain gluing in the rabbet is not so good, but no doubt it works in this case. I think the rabbet was used to retain the original top, I'm still guessing repair, so that the lid still functioned at its original thickness.

The reason I leaned towards thinking utilitary construction, is because the lid doesn't follow wood movement rules. Back to strips attached inside the lid, rather than in rabbets. Maybe, it was a relatively tight squeeze between the sides and the hinges, maybe it might have been too bulky to close on the intended contents? Yes, I noticed the layout lines. The pins might be safe width at the top and bottom, where the piece might have had better visual balance if they were more proportional to the center pin? Again, just some guessing out loud, seeing what story it might tell, not picking on the box. Take care.

You can pretty much date the box by the nails that they used. I believe they stopped using square nails around the 1890s or so in furniture. So, I would date the box before the 1890s.

Just spotted this, and remembered this thread.

https://www.rstshells.com/store/p/46-Wooden-Storage-Box.aspx

For a while, about 20 years ago, Winchester made these. I used to have one. Thanks for posting.

Earlier in the fall I was meandering through an antique mall and noticed several wooden ammo boxes in a vendors space. In light of this thread, I will look at them more closely the next time I’m there and report back if I see anything helpful.

Back in the area so went by to check. Not surprisingly, all the ammo boxes were gone but he did have 12-15 other assorted wooden boxes. Looked through them all in light of your box but didn’t see anything similar. Sorry.