Six pound 12-gauge doubles aren't common, but a few do exist. Lincoln Jeffries' guns comes to mind, the occasional Lindner-Dailey, as well as the Thomas Turner Lightweights. What differentiates them all from the classic 2-inch 12s is the fact that they were built for the then-standard 2 1/2-inch shotshell. They're certainly not something you'd go shoot trap with (as most are thin-tubed, & with even thinner wrists). Where I'd expect they might excel is in the grouse woods where the days are full of walking w/o much shooting. They're all getting pretty old and fragile now (depending on how they've been kept & used) and most have dimensions that won't work for a big lug like me. But...I've always been fascinated by them.

Lloyd, I have a couple and I love them. A 1933 Purdey and an 1895 Sauer. Both are about 6 1/4 pounds. So not quite six even but within spitting distance. Also working the slow deal (haha) on an amazing Lindner 12 that is in the 5 3/4 pound range.

I think I’ve mentioned it before but have come to think about the guns more from a weight and intended load/target standpoint than from a gauge standpoint. For example, why are we thinking about 28 ga guns as though there is similarity when mine is 4 3/4 pounds and another is 6 3/4 points. A 6 pound 12 has more in common with a six pound 20 than it does a 7 1/2 pound 12.

And from the reading I’ve done, theoretically a 12 bore should pattern the same load better than a smaller bore (any smaller bore).

As I've posted several times, I have a 6# Cashmore, proofed for 2.75" and 3 1/4. Not 2.5". After having one for a while and rather loving it for everything from Grouse to geese, I've noced quite a few more in the 6-6.25# range. They are not as thin walled as you might think, nor that fragile. I fall often since I'm rarely on level ground while grousing, and holes and anthills and tussocks are hard to see in the tall grass of pheasant fields. In any event, you can over emphasize their frailty. I shoot trap with mine every Wednesday that I'm in town from April through October.

Mine is 14 7/8" LOP.

If you want one, they are out there. Just takes a little more hunting.

There are no cons.

So far, that's been 100% true over the last three years.

I have a 6 lb 1 oz 12 GA William Cashmore with 27"'barrels and 14-1/2" stock. I shoot only 1 ounce or less 2-1/2" factory ammo or my handloads. I also have a 4 lb 11 oz Verney Carron 28 gauge. I do occasionally shoot 1 oz through it, but only in the second barrel. The first barrel always has 3/4 oz loads. The one ounce charge is a little uncomfortable in so light a gun. Besides, when I do my part the birds fall just as hard with 3/4 oz as with one ounce.

James: We're clearly like-minded here.

What has kept me coming back to them is the unquestionable lethality of the 12-bore over the sub-gauge guns. I too have a very light 28 (5 1/4lbs) and a perfectly serviceable 16 (5lbs14) , and both are a pleasure to carry and use. Where I'm always wondering is the prospect of less-than-clean kills (not that it's really been a problem w/either). Full and even patterns are a thing of beauty (especially to a hunter of grouse) and most 12s throw them with abandon (2-inch 12s are quite famous for them actually).

The down-side for all of them, I suppose (especially for the 2-inch guns) is ammunition selection and then supply (Ted's recent point about his Darns is spot-on). Reloading is usually the best alternative, but with the advent of RST (& a few others) there are other options (even now). I'm treading carefully here(!) but I am still quite curious about them. Too curious in-fact to not scratch that itch.

Edit: Lots of Cashmores too it seems. I'll need to look into them.

I have two and they are fantastic. Well, one is...the second is incoming from England and I have high hopes for it. One of my primary grouse guns is a 12 bore Norman & Sons 2.5" boxlock with 28" barrels and a 15 3/8 stock. It weighs in at 6lbs 2oz and the walls are .024/.024. Chokes are Skeet/IC. What a great carrying gun that has plenty punch and an even pattern. My new one is a London sidelock with walls .028/.028 and 1/2" shorter with chokes at 1/4 & 1/2. Can't wait to get it in hand and compare them back to back. I will get the stock extended and the case fitted, probably ready to go by this spring.

I really like the 6lbs weight to carry. I have some guns in the 6.5-6.75# range and I do notice the difference on a long day's hunt. Some might say these light 12's are whippy, but I say it depends on the gun and the circumstances of the hunt. Mine works great for the way I hunt.

2" 12 gauges can, and should be, quite a bit lighter than 6 lbs. Mine is "heavy" for a 2" gun at 5# 9 oz. Most are more like 5# 4oz or less. If you want light, then the 2" is the way to go.

As far as lethality of a 12 bore over a smaller gauge, I don't see it. 7/8 oz out of a 12 is no different than 7/8 oz out of a 20 at the same velocity. I wouldn't say they pattern must differently either, though the current RST 2" loads pattern very well indeed. I'm sure a bit of tinkering with reloading would get you there with a 2.5" 20 gauge just as easily.

Reloading for a 2" 12 is getting easier. Gil and a myself and another friend have come up with a handful of loads that work very well with the 2" gun using easily available components.

I love the 2" 12 just for it's uniqueness. But I do notice that I'm more likely to carry it with my offhand on the forearm rather than having the forearm tucked into my left elbow. For grouse, that gives me just a tiny bit more time and sometimes that helps.

LLoyd, not all can do this but.... on the subject of ammo......I don't shoot at the range much....like hardly at all. And I might do a couple rounds of SC a year. Most of my ammo use happens when hunting. This approach might not work for waterfowl hunters or those playing the clays games but a while ago, in always crappy supply Canada, when I realized how tough supply was for the kinds of low pressure shorter length shot shells I needed for my vintage guns, I just started to bulk up. I have over 5000 rounds of 12 and 16 gauge and am slowing building inventory for 20 and 28 as those gauges are recent additions for me. In 12 and 16, the last 4 years of short supply has been meaningless. Properly stored, it doesn't go bad, it rises in value and it creates peace of mind on that subject. Heck, I have 1000 rounds of RST in 20 and 28 waiting for me at my US location stash. I really operate on the premise that you can't have too much. Now, I didn't go out and buy it all at once. I just bought amply, especially when I saw a deal, and made sure I had more in January that i had the previous September.

Others may solve the problem a different way and its quite hard to do this (for a multi year supply) if you are, say, an avid skeet shooter. But with upland now my main focus Its quite manageable and when I'm gone, my son with thank me. Hahahaha!

It's been posted before but here is my Reilly 12 bore, SN 34723, last extant gun made at 16, New Oxford Street, probably in April 1897. 2 1/2" chambers. 6 lbs, 1 oz. My go-to gun for everything (when I can get the cartridges).

I really like to carry them. The birds have no clue that its a short shell I am using. As Geo once said "an ounce of 6's is an ounce of 6's!"

Concerning wall thickness on Prussian Dalys, I have a very Lindner like J.P. Sauer 26" ten, yes 10, gauge Krupp barrel gun at 6 pounds, 4 ounces empty. The wall thickness is quite adequate in both barrels and the stock is standard dimension and bulk. I have no idea how they built a full size ten gauge at that weight with good wall thickness. I have a good collection of Lindner guns but have always shied away from the Featherweight guns, thinking the barrels were too thin.

Just got off of the phone with Kirby. My son has a new toy coming for his birthday (December 30th, my tax-return baby). George Newnham 12BLE, circa 1882, 30-inch 2-bar damascus tubes, 14 5/8 LOP and at 6 lbs 2.5 ounces. Long, light, and lovely. No choke to speak of but... for long walks on northern grouse trails it should serve admirably. His CZ Bobwhite G-2 12 was a good start but it's a bit heavy and clunky for grouse, this one isn't. Our boy just got home Saturday from CSU and he's back at his summer job again today (and will be for the next month or so). His grades were exemplary (clearly my wife's influence) and IMHO...such behavior needs to be positively reinforced. Hopefully he'll let his pappy borrow it every once in a while?

I have a 6lb Dickson RA and it is certainly hard to manage on crossing targets.

Lloyd, I've got a Purdey circa 1928, ordered in by A&F, that weighs and letters at 6 lbs. even with 26" Whitworth bbls. and very plain straight grain walnut. The barrels have surprisingly thick walls for a light gun on the order of .032" MWT. Handles like a dream; choked Cyl & Full. Sandlapper

Sandlapper: Sounds pretty wonderful.

Let me tell you about my detached retina…

Best,
Ted

Not any different that 1 oz out of a 6# 20 gauge either. Even 1.25 oz @1200 or so is just fine out of a 6# hunting gun for most folks.

Anyone who suffers from astigmatism is more at risk of a detached retina. Ditto males versus females. People with blue eyes suffer more of them than people with other color eyes. People with ancestry from Northern Europe are more susceptible to detached retinas. Older people are at greater risk as well.

Tell me, exactly how do you square your “most folks” supposition with the above facts about who suffers the greatest chance of retina detachment?

Or, are you just making it up?

Best,
Ted

I find 1oz/1145fps to be a bit much in the recoil department for a 6lb 16ga....for target shooting, hunting low volume game it is fine.
1oz/1295fps seemed a bit overkill for trap loads in a 8lb plus 32" 2E Krupp Pigeon Special.
The above guns are hard buttplates.
To keep this in perspective, I had no problem with heavy bismuth loads in a Gold Light 10ga.

Well, I'm sure the lighter 12s do have a bit more recoil but...in older Damascus guns I simply don't push them very hard. RST 7/8 ounce lightweights are more the rule, with the occational 1-ounce load used in the left barrel and nothing very fast ( 1,040-1,100 fps stuff), the birds don't seem to notice.

Well Teddy you don't put the butt end to your eye...

Mike when did you get the Dickson?

All the folks that I hunt with that use 6.25 or lighter 12s are male, blue eyed, Nordic to a fault, and mostly old. They are doing just fine with such loads in such guns. Like the man said, quit putting your gun on your eye. Maybe you could use some lessons or something.

FWIW, I have my retina mapped and analyzed digitally every year. My eye doc knows that I shoot heavy guns that recoil much more than a 6# shotgun. 80 rounds per day, in multiday matches, is not uncommon. No problems. No concern or expectation of a problem from him.

Just because you have a problem doesn't mean everyone or even "most" people would. They don't. Good grief.

An ounce in a 16 or an ounce in a 12, both are great

A 6lb Dickson RA is the ultimate dream gun. I'd love to see one. I'm sure you will manage those crossing targets with just a little more practice. I seem to adjust to a new gun faster if I shoot clays from low gun position. The longer mount and swing gives me a better feel for the lightness I guess. In any event, it works for me.

6 1/4 pound 20 bore...7/8 oz lead...

6 1/2 pound 16 bore...1 oz lead...

6 3/4 pound 12 bore...1 1/8 oz lead

above weights are for loaded guns and are recommended to new sxs shooters...

lighter than above guns beat up the shooter...

heavier than above guns gain weight after lunch...

water fowl, trap and clays guns should be heavier than above...

otherwise sore shoulder results...

see little shooting use for guns under 6 pounds and over 8 pounds...

Lloyd, the "lighter 12s" don't have "more" recoil. It has nothing to do with the gauge. What matters is the weight of the gun, the weight of the ejecta and the speed the ejecta is accelerated to. Physics doesn't care what gauge you are shooting.

A 6 pound 12, a 6 pound 16 and a 6 pound 20 will have the same recoil if they are shooting the same load to the same speed. The difference between them should be ballistics,,,,,,with the larger bore producing the better pattern, theoretically.

This discussion that relates recoil to gauge is nuts......it's recoil to gun weight, load and speed you should be talking about.

what back said...?

thinking bout hit...

Says the knucklehead who told a guy here to cut a slot in the engraved pin of his Frazier to get it apart….

Best,
Ted

Says the knucklehead that guarantied that we would be paying for $400/barrel oil this summer. Ted, maybe you should take a Happy Pill of some sort - maybe a whole bottle of them. Between you and mc and The Fuse, it's hard to say which is more derisive.

as in derisive mal contents...

aka, miserable ole flukes...

[/quote]

Well Teddy you don't put the butt end to your eye...[/quote]

Says the knucklehead who told a guy here to cut a slot in the engraved pin of his Frazier to get it apart….

Best,
Ted[/quote]

Says the knucklehead that guarantied that we would be paying for $400/barrel oil this summer. Ted, maybe you should take a Happy Pill of some sort - maybe a whole bottle of them. Between you and mc and The Fuse, it's hard to say which is more derisive.[/quote]


A prediction I got wrong, as opposed to the many facts you get wrong. I was pretty close on the price of bacon, by the way.

Spell check is your friend Professor goofy.

You think pills fix all problems, Prof?

Best,
Ted

It sure is nice to carry all day after bobwhites. I bought some 2 5/8" Subsound B&P 1 1/8 oz. loads before they quit making them and surprisingly, they are not heavy recoiling at all. I just came back from the Texas panhandle after quail and that old Purdey was a pleasure to use as we walked 6-7 miles/ day in that thick brush and shin oak country. Whoever ordered it knew what they wanted. Apparently, Purdey mfg. quite a few of these lightweight 12's in the 1920-1940 era according to Dallas' book.

I like my lightweight 12s but they are fat in my hands. Smaller gauges are slimmer and some are much lighter.

Different horses for different courses as the old saying goes. I am grateful to have been blessed by having a place to go that requires lots of walking when I bird hunt. A heavier gun becomes quite noticeable at the end of a long trail (or a long day). A lighter, faster gun in those circumstances is a valuable tool to posess. I now have several variants (12s, 16s, & 28s) to compare and contrast (yet another blessing!). As with so-many things in life, there is no one-answer, and it is "fun" for me to contemplate all those variables. Even more fun now that I can share this activity with my son.

Battle, got my Dickson about three years ago. It's a beautiful gun but difficult for me to shoot. It's a 1943 gun with 28" barrels. It's lists in Donald Dallas's book

Ah ok. I guess I assumed you didn't own a Dickson when you showed interest in the one I had.

Here are two of my light 12ga guns. They are great to carry all day. I have no issues or handicap when shooting them.

I load 2 1/2" paper and plastic 1oz and 1 1/8oz shells @1200fps for them. I don't realize any excessive recoil with either.

First is a Charles Daly Featherweight with 26" barrels weighing 5# 9oz empty.





Here is my John Dickson round action from 1890 with 28" barrels. It weighs 6# even. I love hunting with this gun.




All of my 12ga field guns are 6#12oz or less.
My 16ga field guns are 5#7oz to 6#4oz.

duxsdog - Each gun nicer than the last, and a handsome dog to boot. Looks like you have it figured out.

A collection to drool over. His guns are all pretty amazing

My father in his late 70’s suffered a detachment issue after a day on the sporting clays range. It sidelined him for sometime. I cannot state with certainty the causal linkage, but there may be one. We humans are complex machines and like old watches sometimes more fragile when we age.

As for 6lb 12ga guns, years ago I had a O/U Italian gun which weighed 6 even. With light loads it was ok, but I failed to hold back and beat myself to death and gave up on it. Through life experience I have found 6 pound 16’s a pleasure and my preferred standard weight of gun. The key bottom line is to shoot the correct weight load for the gun you are using. For targets I adhere to the old rule of 96, 1oz for a 6 pound gun, and for hunting I sometimes stretch it to 1 1/8.

I have focused on 16’s for most of my hunting life and only recently gotten into 12ga 2 1/2 inch. I do not own any 6lb 12’s and have no plans to get one. When I want to be comfortable hunting I default to a 6lb gun. It is simply I am used to. If a 6lb 12 is your thing, then good on you and use it well.

How much shooting did your dad do after the detachment? Late 70s would impact the healing process, greatly. High blood pressure, diabetes, poor circulation, kidney disorders and age all impact the healing process.

I’ve met people who have never really recovered. If the vision recovers in the damaged eye, it is often not close to the vision remaining in the good eye, leading to what almost appears to be double vision. I suffer a bit of this. At first, it left me nauseous, but, a few years in I’ve made a sort of peace with it, and wink my left eye closed for detail work, and shooting.

The right eye is corrected to 20/20. Thank goodness.

Best,
Ted

Those detached retinas can really be bad. I had a buddy in his early to mid 70s , who married a woman from Thailand and they owned some property over there. So every year he would travel back and forth to Thailand with his wife. He was there one year and went to open up a bottle of water and the cap blew off and hit him in his left eye. And he ended up with a detached retina. The eye doctor over there told him not to get on a plane and try to fly home because
the altitude could damage his eye permanently. So he had an eye doctor over there work on his eye and it ended up being so butchered he couldn't shoot anymore with his left eye and he was always a left-handed shooter. He got back to the States and went to see his eye doctor and his eye doctor here told him that he could have flown home and it shouldn't have damaged his eye but it was too late by then. And he could have repaired his eye. But it was too late. He never was the same. He tried to shoot right handed, but could never do very well at all. He had a left-handed Perazzi that he always used, but after that accident he never could shoot right-handed very well, either. Always be careful when you open up a cold plastic bottle of water in the summer. I've heard of the cap blowing off more than once over the years. Ever since then anytime I opened up a bottle of pop or water I turned it away from my face.

He may not have had the time to fly, either, Jimmy. You only have so long with an interrupted blood supply to the retina, to get the work done. My doc said it was an emergency surgery, and I woke up, was diagnosed, and under the knife the following day. Greatful for the vision I have in the left eye, but, it isn’t what it was.
After the surgery, I wore blaze orange and green arm bands saying I couldn’t medi-vacced by aircraft, as the nitrous oxide bubble they put in the eye to put pressure on the retina would expand at altitude and cause problems.

I wouldn’t wish it on anybody.

Best,
Ted

Well...I must say that Kirby is very efficient. That Newnham arrived today (after buying it Monday). When I picked up the box it was shipped in I knew it was going to be very light. Beautifully packed, unwrapping it was a process akin to a striptease. How you can get these overall dimensions (14 5/8 LOP and 30-inch 12-bore tubes) to weigh 6lbs2 is a mystery to me (it actually feels lighter). The wood is even prettier than his photography of it, with good figure and a nice leather-wrapped pad. Downtown tomorrow for work, so I'll take this gun down to MW Reynolds to confirm a few things but....wow! Photos to follow (it's likely still up on Kirby's webpage as well).

I was going through some of my purchases, and have a couple lightweight 12's coming. One in particular is a Alex Henry 26" ejector with Churchill rib coming in at 5-15oz.

I have never suffered from excess recoil or injury from shooting my very light guns. However I once neglected to notice that there was an old paper Super X ten gauge 1 5/8 ounce load mixed in with my light handloads. I fired it in my 6 1/4 pound ten gauge Sauer and thought I had been bitten by a rattlesnake. I'm just glad my lovely gun survived.

[/u]

Originally Posted by Jimmy W

Those detached retinas can really be bad. I had a buddy in his early to mid 70s , who married a woman from Thailand and they owned some property over there. So every year he would travel back and forth to Thailand with his wife. He was there one year and went to open up a bottle of water and the cap blew off and hit him in his left eye. And he ended up with a detached retina. The eye doctor over there told him not to get on a plane and try to fly home because
the altitude could damage his eye permanently. So he had an eye doctor over there work on his eye and it ended up being so butchered he couldn't shoot anymore with his left eye and he was always a left-handed shooter. He got back to the States and went to see his eye doctor and his eye doctor here told him that he could have flown home and it shouldn't have damaged his eye but it was too late by then. And he could have repaired his eye. But it was too late. He never was the same. He tried to shoot right handed, but could never do very well at all. He had a left-handed Perazzi that he always used, but after that accident he never could shoot right-handed very well, either. Always be careful when you open up a cold plastic bottle of water in the summer. I've heard of the cap blowing off more than once over the years. Ever since then anytime I opened up a bottle of pop or water I turned it away from my face.

I am 77 now and around 18 years ago I was hunting and on the way home I happened to close my right eye and could only see a blur out of my left. When I got home I told me wife and at the time I didn't have an eye doctor because we had moved. My wife called and finally found someone and he referred me to another doctor who saw me the next day in this office, he opened it up just for me. He looked at it and told me that I had a split in my retina, and he referred to it as a curtain at half way and if it went all the way I would be blind. He lasered it. Going forward a few years we were on vacation with the grandchildren in Florida and my wife and I were going food shopping. At this time my vision was 20/20 and 20.30 in the right eye so I wasn't wearing glasses. When we were at the store I was having trouble reading some of the labels. I thought it could have been from being in the water. The next morning it was the same so I called my doctor in Pennsylvania and he said to go see an ophthalmologist. I went and was told I would need to have surgery as I had a detached retina. The ophthalmologist asked me when I was going home and said Sunday, this was on a Tuesday and he said that[u] I would not be able to fly because it could detach. He operated on me and I received a buckle. I found out later that the eye is removed and it is either lasered or sewn. Got home and my doctor the same one who did the original laser told me I got the gold standard of treatment. Still see this same doctor and he is the only one I see in his whole office.
So whatever that doctor told your father I think the Thai doctor knew what he was talking about.

Sorry your friends father.

If you are experiencing "lightning" or "welding" going off in your peripheral vision, then you too are experiencing the cause of all this misery. As I now understand it, PVD or "peripheral vitreous detachment" is an age-related issue that seems to affect the near-sighted and the astigmatic much more than most (more "conical" eyes versus truly "round" eyes). It is the vitreous humor pulling away from the back of the eye as you effectively get-old and "dry-out", and the process can act to tear the connection of the optic nerve with the back of the eye. If you're lucky, you just end up with "floaters" and a few blank spots, if not so-lucky you end up losing the use of that eye as a dark curtain is drawn across it. Ted isn't worst-case but... it has effectively ruined his left-handed shooting. My experience with it has left me with deteriorated vision in my left (or shooting) eye, but I'm still soldiering on. Once damaged you are evidently more fragile, and caution is always advised (no more magnum rifles?) but... when has any sawbones ever not advised caution? I'm not happy about it, but I'm also not going to change anything. I certainly don't love recoil, but I've never been all that sensitive to it either (yet another insensitive bastard, eh?). Lighter guns seem to do better with softer loads and I respond accordingly but... I'm not going to live in fear about it. When my dirt-nap comes I'm hoping to have worn everything completely out, and hang the expense!

Lloyd,
I myself envision hitting the ground like a "well used shotshell"! At 76, it may be around the corner.
Karl

Recoil off the right shoulder bothers me far more than it ever did off the left. Going forward, I’m seeking a bit of equilibrium between weight of the gun, and sensible loadings. The lightest gun in the safe has already been sold.


Best,
Ted

Dang it Ted, you killed birds this year like a house afire. You'll be just fine.

Karl, no reason to expect that you won't be smoking birds at 80 years with that 25-inch barreled lightning bolt 12 of yours.

Merry Cristmas you two.

Lloyd,
Actually that "lightning bolt" is a 1910 Churchill 12 ga., 26" choked .003" & .011" @ 5 lbs. 12 oz. I shoot it well with 1 oz. 2 1/2" RST's. For targets I feed it Fiocchi 2 3/4" 12 ga. trainer loads with 7/8 oz. @ 1200 fps.
I've mentioned it before, it serves me well because I have developed a proper muscle memory for it. Same with my baby framed 28 ga. Merkel. All of my guns are 6 1/2 lbs. and less in weight.
Best wishes for the Holiday's!
Karl

Yes all those things happen. After my surgery in Florida the doctor said I would be near sighted. You might say I have the best of both, without corrective lenses, my left eye is good to arms length and my right eye is good for distance but not close-up. The only time I wear glasses is driving. I have other glasses for shooting.
As to floaters I have them, most times the brain doesn't focus and I don't see them, other times blink your eyes and they jump right back up top. You get to live with it

Really nice gun, Karl.

I knew it was a Churchill Karl, figured on 25-inch tubes. The weight is still pretty great, Mea Culpa!

Lloyd,
The gun predates Robert Churchill's introduction of the 25 XXV gun of 1926 after Edwin died in 1910. I searched for something like this for a long time!
Karl

Hey all, here's my lightest 12. Churchill Premire painless action.

25" bbls, skeet/IC

Been a great gun for me!

Best Regards

Greg

Pinless….pinless action.

In my collection of useless stuff, I have some Remington 2 3/4” Magnum ammunition, purchased by some ancestor, that I will never use, that would get you, or, I, acquainted with pain, should you choose to run them in a gun like that.

Speaking of which, what is the actual weight?

Definitely a looker.

Best,
Ted

Sorry Ted, she weighs 5-14

It is pinless, not painless. Damn auto spell.

Thanks for the kind words

Greg