I have a late 1940's box lock Boswell 12g double gun that has become very slightly loose in the action. Holding the gun by the stock with or without the forend in position and shaking it from side to side creates a little movement between the chamber face and breech face. I've held the gun up to a fluorescent light and cannot see any light coming through the join between the breech face and barrels.

My gun has a fixed hinge pin that can't be replaced. Another alternative that I've read about is laser welding of the hook that fits around the hinge pin to build this area up. I've also been told by a reputable source that if laser welding is done, within about 3 months of use the gun will work loose again at this point and isn't recommended.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Reidy, I cannot imagine a gun working loose after three months of casual shooting after having been laser welded and rejointed, though I have never had it done. I have a Hollis that I plan to have welded, and will rejoint myself. I will have the hook micro-tig welded, as opposed to laser welded, but welding is welding. Both processes are applying a very thin layer of steel to the worn area, then removing until there is a like new fit.

I'll be interested to hear other's experiences, and comments. Especially those of actual gunsmiths, like Steve. Great question.

Laser welding was coming into common use around the time I retired so have had very little experience of it .
The success of any welding will depend on the welder and the material use as a filler ,for this a low carbon such as En8 .
With solid pin guns its always worth checking the hinge/joint pin has not worn oval and may need to be dresses back to concentricity first .

This might help.

Here we go!

If a new joint pin cannot be made….

I use laser welding. I can specify exactly how much material that needs to be added into a specific area, it seriously cuts down on the time it takes to get the barrels back down onto the action. I have not had any issues with the laser welding material not holding up. I have a Lancaster that was put back on the face 13 years ago by laser welding. It’s had thousands of rounds through it since then (it was used for a decade as my main hunting & clays gun). It’s still smack on the face.
I recently rejointed a Churchill by using the same method and am sure it’ll wear exactly like the Lancaster. The difference between laser welding and Tig welding is the amount of heat subjected to the lump. Laser welding is a much cooler, much more precise process IMO. My laser welding guy goes about this in a scientific way to include his knowledge of specific metallurgy.
I would not take a set of barrels to a jewelry store (jewelry stores often have a laser welder) and ask them to laser weld a hook. I don’t think they are quite as precise as a laser welder who welds for the aerospace & nuclear industries.

One of the things I’ve noticed about the old technique of spray welding is that the material used is so damn hard, you HAVE to use diamond coated files to work the barrels down. I think that’s why some fixed joint pins would start to concave, because the spray weld material is so damn hard. I have no proof of that, just a theory.

AHHHHHHHHHH!
Never been able to watch one of these videos all the way through without screaming .

I used spray welding to good effect in the past . All depends on the spray medium as some can be very hard so I had to be careful to make sure I had the right bottle on .

In defense of old Jack, when he was trained there was no TIG or laser welding so he had to be a bit of a blacksmith. His techniques seem crude and certainly aren't best practice now but they do work. I've used them. Some people have little money and some guns aren't worth spending much money to fix. I'm glad Larry Potterfield documented the old way. Didn't we go through all this about six weeks ago?

Yea, we did.

At that time, I referenced the DGJ article on the Nitro Special guns, and the author who got the very well worn 12 gauge in about 1964, that was loose, who then fixed it with a little piece of .004 brass shim stock betwixt the lump and the pin, who then used it for 30 seasons or so as his duck gun, with hot 2 3/4” loads. The gun was then sold to a guy who was told about the repair, and who proceeded to do the exact same thing with it for a few more decades. It might still be in use with that $1.00 repair. It wasn’t loose when he sold it.

I guess, if I had a low end gun that was loose, I’d do the shim thing before beating the lump with a punch. In the meantime, I do put a little smear of Mobilegrease 28 on the hook of every double I own, hoping to keep the wiggle away.

Except the Darnes. They don’t get loose.

Best,
Ted

Curious, TIG welding was invented in the 1940's. Just how old IS this "Jack" fellow?.

Jack has been dead since 2015:

https://shootingsportsman.com/john-frederick-jack-rowe-1936-2015/


He apprenticed at Wright’s, and, I’m guessing he wouldn’t do the punch methods of repair to English best guns, in England. He fixed guns here in the states, and dealt with more run of the mill stuff.

TIG welding, as applied to soldered and brazed gun barrels is a more recent phenomenon.

Best,
Ted

the thing that is most striking for me when i watch one of jack's midway tutorials....is the simple confidence and economy of motions....born of 50 years on the bench.

best regards,

tom

https://www.microprecisionwelding.com/
Tony knows his stuff. I've never had him do work on a hinge pin but bet he could. He's done other work for me- superb.

1932-2015

I took my Boswell to a local gunsmith to check out the loose action. He commented that the degree of movement when the gun barrels are moved laterally with the forend off is quite minimal. Considering the amount of use I give the gun, he said it will be many years before it becomes an issue. He suggested using light trap ammunition as a means of extending its life further and applying grease to the hinge pin. He replaced both firing pin springs as I've had an occasional misfire, mainly when using reloads. The original box lock springs were considerably more closed at the open end compared to the new ones he fitted. Thanks to all for your input.

Reidy,
It sounds like your Boswell will be back in action. That’s good news. I see you are in Australia, so a welder in the United States is probably not an option. however, for the group here, I wanted to give a second note of support for Toni at Micro Precision Welding. He has done a few jobs for me. His attention to detail is meticulous and he is super professional.

Best regards,

Larry

The best way to check if the gun is tight on face, is to see if it closes on a one thousandth inch (.001") feeler gauge.
If it does, it's off the face, and needs a rejoint. It will get worse quickly - everything has a run at each other.
Modern "light" trap loads are usually way over pressure for an older double gun.

As noted previously we do have a tendency to judge the way repairs where done in the past from our modern standpoint of todays technology, this being rather unfair and rather condescending. In the photograph is the barrel lump section of a 12 bore double barrel shotgun at the time it was off the face when the repair showing was undertaken. This curved punch repair was done by a high standing gunmaker and gunsmith Samuel Ebrall. At the time this form of repair to put the gun back on face was completely acceptable because over the years I have seen many guns with these curved punch marks on the barrel hook.

Not sure if it was the case in England, but, a gun that was broken or unusable, circa 1930-1938 might have put a rural family that much closer to starvation here in the states. “Farmstead Repairs” were a thing, and the owner probably didn’t care if the screw slot was perfect when he got the gun back together, as long as it worked, and might provide a bunny or two to supplement his larder.

My Dad had chores that involved pan fishing and squirrel hunting several times a week. They were not negotiable. It was expected. Squirrels could be sold at the farmers market, a dressed pair brought two bits. Fur had to be on the tree rats, as unscrupulous folk would slip a house cat in to the mix.

Things were much closer to the bone, in that era.

Best,
Ted

I have shimmed a few guns with metal strips to put them back on face "temporarily". Nothing too loose, but once slightly loose taking up the slack, prevents more looseness. Well as those repairs go, they last a decent amount of time and if the gun is nothing special they might get done again. Why invest time and money in a gun which is likely to be shot just a box or two of shells over a period of years. I have one gun which had that repair which I doubt I have shot once in 20 years. But it is ready if needed. Shim stock and one of the Locktite compounds works well and is completely reversible for a more proper repair if desired. Much nicer than a punch mark or hammering on the joint.

You don’t even have to use Loc-Tite. Just cut the shim to fit, grease it, and put it in place.

Hardware store guns get fixed with supplies from the hardware store.

Best,
Ted

Many hardware store guns especially of the Belgian variety were off face from the factory while they were being sold new in the rack!

The statement above bothers me because I believe it is inaccurate. In all the years I have read books, magazines, and internet posts on the subject of cheap hardware store guns or old Belgian clunkers, I never once heard they were "off face from the factory...."

Way back before I was really into double guns, I can remember seeing old guys evaluating used models in gunshops. They would check to see if they were loose by shaking or flexing them with the forend on and then off. Then they would often try to close the gun with a dollar bill between the barrels and standing breech. If it would close on the dollar, which they were using as a crude feeler gauge, then it was judged to be loose and in need of repairs.

If guys back then knew enough to avoid a used gun that was off the face, then certainly they would never consider buying one that was loose when factory new. It is more likely that these cheap guns were simply fitted with less care and precision, so there was less contact area on the critical surfaces. Because of that, they would then wear at a faster rate than a gun which was better built.

Mike Rowe makes a valid point. Some light loads do in fact create breech pressure levels that can be excessive for older double guns. My limited research has shown that Winchester AA Xtra-Lite 28g, 2 3/4 dram equiv. target loads produce a moderate breech pressure. Would be nice if ammunition manufacturers could state the pressure levels of their products, especially for users of older double guns.

I have done a couple of Flues guns by soft soldering the shim in place and trimming with an exacto knife. It worked well, looked good and served me well for many years until it was sold.

About 15 years ago I called Winchester and asked about the pressure of these shells. Answer was 8,500 psi.

I had a CSMC M21 that went off face after several years @ sporting clays shooting (bolt adjustment would not compensate) so I attached a .002" mild steel shim to the hook w/ Permatex Sleeve retainer (available @ NAPPA & is used for securing valve guides in aluminum cylinder heads).

I shot it for several more years @ sporting clays w/ the shim in place before I sent it to Dennis Potter to do a proper repair by replacing the joint pin but I could have kept shooting it w/the shim.

I don't see any downside to the shim repair & it is relatively easy to do, reverseable & cost effective on a low end shotgun that doesn't warrant rejointing.

15 years ago, it might have been 8,500. Today, with running changes in components and powder, they will only state that any load is under SAAMI max.

They aren’t wrong.

Best,
Ted