Any opinions on what the gun might be worth? $1500 is the opening bid. Although a Belgian make, per the seller, most of the proof marks are German. I see 10.16 on one of the barrel flats, maybe indicating Oct 1916? Any thoughts, opinions, idle speculation are welcome. I don't have any personal experience with Pieper, but from what I've read they made good guns, and this one doesn't seem to be JABC.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78680269

Here's some infro about the maker, and not JABC
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...%20ets%20gb.htm
The left barrel flat (unfortunately not pictured) should have a Belgian date of production code
See http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181
Pete M should be along with more infro

I would ask if the seller actually measured those chokes.I would want to be sure those barrels are not cut,its kinda hard to tell from the picture one way or the other.

If the gun is intact the "buy it now" price dosen't seem out of line. David

In looking at his other offerings he has a torch job that he describes as "Excellent as professionally restored"

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=79185714

scary !At least no mention of the "master gunsmith"

With the gauge in a circle would but it before 1939. And I agree with the 10.16 or 3.15(313,318 or whatever is below 10.16) being the date, but a better pic would reveal the truth. I don't see the Belgian Perron stamp; therefore, it may be a German double with Belgian barrels. My concern would be the screw thru the head of the stock: was it original or has the head of the stock cracked at some point.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That gun has been up on GunBroker for over 2 months and he still has not dropped the price...says something to me about the asking price.

I believe it is a Bayard model 573 which uses the Anson Deeley design. Exactly how long Pieper produced this design I am not sure, but I believe he started marketing it some time after 1900.

Of the marks I can clearly see:
12 in a Circle is the gauge designation used in Germany 1891-1939
Crown over N is the nitro designation used in Germany 1891-1939
Choke markings used in Belgium 1910-1924
It as also shows a superior Belgium proof stamp on the barrels. Which means it passed a heavier proof load than required by Belgian law at the time.

So, by the proof marks, some time between 1910 and 1924. Which makes sense to me. I am guessing it was made for the German sporting market post WWI. It has the traditional sling swivels. So it was used as a hunter at one time or another.

On a side note, Henri Pieper was actually of German descent, which most people do not know.
Pricing for it? No one has even bid the opening bid in all the time it has sat there. I think the seller is off by about $1,000. It is a nice English clone, however, if that is what you are after for that price there are plenty of real English guns around.

Pete

Why think that the colors are a torch job?
What looks odd to me is the fit of the barrels to the breech. It is possible that the barrels are replacements that were made in Belgium.
If we consider the condition of the German and Belgian gun industry just after WW1, we can see that a small shop may have put this gun together from what was available.
I agree that this is at least $1000 out of reality.
Best,
John

John,
I was refering to the Sauer here that the same seller had;
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=79185714
Thats a torch job !
not the overpriced Bayard.All this sellers guns could be called out of reality I agree

Raimey mentioned the screw in the head of th stock, I've owned 2 Bayards, both had decorative screws thru the stock and each one had the checkering cut around them..I'm convinced they were made that way..MDC

M.D. Christian:

Thanks for calling my hand at it. That may certainly be a trait of Bayards, but most boxlocks without a Greener Safety with at screw near the head usually have a crack. Bayards may be the exception.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lefever embedded ivory through the stock on some of his guns. It was an effort to keep the stock from splitting.

Pete

The screw through the head is factory, I have had lots of Bayards and I have never seen one (that I can remember) without the screw.
This is a unusual action for a Bayard and only the second of this type I have seen (the first was a much plainer gun). Most Bayards have a crossbolt and rib extension. Notice this gun does not have a screw for the opening lever and when you open the lever it cams back a small piece from the top of the rib. Also the action is more "square" than most Bayard models. Interesting gun.

Sorry John,

It shows up in "Bayard Les hommes les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie 1859-1957 par Michel Druart" page 222. We are simply not used to seeing these models 570 through 573. It is certainly the 1st I have seen. I think Bayard was taking advantage of the decimated German gun industry immediately after the war. Pieper had a much broader product line than most of his Belgian competitors. This was in part due to the early adoption of mechanization. Pieper had also developed far reaching business alliances. In addition, they were actively filling large military orders.

Pete

Thanks for the comments guys. In one of the links provided, it was mentioned that during the occupation of Belgium in WWI (by Germany), that Pieper was under German control. I wonder if this gun was manufactured by Pieper for shipment to Germany, which might explain the presence of German proof marks on a Belgian gun. The 10.16 stamp, if it does indeed represent Oct. 1916, would inidcate the gun was made during the war.

A thousand bucks does not buy much these days in a decent double. Most German guild guns which sold for $500-600.00 ten years ago tend to go for $1,500.00-1,600.00 these days. This gun is certainly worth more than that. I suspect if the seller dropped the gun reserve to $1,500.00 it would be sold. He is looking for a buyer with more money than knowledge of the guns real value or time to wait until a better priced gun comes along.

Bayard made guns in all grades and price ranges it seems. One of the more under appreciated makers so far. Kind of like a certain maker with a L in the name was 20 years ago. Might be worth watching out for a few of the better grade guns to see what they do in value over the next 20 years.

This is not only interesting but worth more than most would think. This board is bulging, at it's seams, with experience and knowledge. As a student, I am thrilled to speculate on this gun.
None has commented on my questioning the thought that this is not a torched action. It seems righteous to me.
No one has picked up on the odd appearing junction of the barrels and the breech face.
I do not think that the gun was built/finished in Belgium. It may be that the date stamp has nothing to do with the building of the whole gun.
We all know that the German gun industry was 99.9% exclusively military during this time. This leads me to think that the gun was put together, with available parts, by someone in the dark of night.
Either that or it was put together,under florescent light, here. Some ninety years later.
Best,
John

Interesting that the seller, with all the pics he took, did not include the left barrel flat.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPSSSSS !!!!!
Ignore my ranting about this gun's "odd" barrel fitting.
For some reason, the pics that I was seeing were of a totally different gun.
Thanks Dave for setting me straight.
Actually, this looks to be a very nice gun and appears to be of fairly high grade.
Most probably built in Belgium and sold in Germany.
Best,
John

Hi John,
its my fault for adding the other link,sorry to add confusion (maybe mife wife is right I do that alot).I was trying to point out out the seller's of both guns thought that that Sauer was a "professional restoration".If he thinks poorly fitted barrels and torch work are correct he certainly does not know,or will point out problems with that Bayard.I am the only one that thinks those barrels could be cut on the Bayard?Note he does not list the chokes,just the stamps.

John M, thanks for taking another look, I was worried I was missing something obvious.

Dave K, I've emailed the seller asking about the amount of choke in each barrel as they are choked now, not what is stamped on the barrel flats. I don't know how knowledgeable this guy is about long guns anyway, he told me the drop at heel was 7 1/4".

I would think that the cheekpiece and proofmarks indicate the gun was definitely
made for the German market. JMTC.

JC(AL)

I have one a lot like it in 16ga....Mine has a little less engraving and no checkering on the stocks cheeks; also no cheek piece but most I seen do have the cheek piece....mine does have the stock screw although I have seen some without the screw...I think they elininated the screw on the later produced guns ...Mine is relatively old as it does not have one of the Belgian Date code letters on the barrel flats that were used after 1923...Figure it was made in the teens....

Seems like they made this action in 4 or 5 grades as I have seen this type of action with just border engraving all the way up to full coverage [like this one] my 16 looks like one or two grades below this one....BTW mine has no makers marks ...all the rest I have seen have all been Bayards....