A while back we had a discussion about the serial numbers on the Model 21s and Tony Galazan claims to have built any Model 21 with a serial number higher than 32,000. I recently ran across the pictures and info (that I had misplaced) on these guns that were for sale at the Grand American at Jaqua's a few years ago. Their serial numbers are higher than 32,000 and according to Jaqua's, they were built by The U.S. Repeating Arms and not by Tony Galazan. Here is the info on the guns....... (1) Serial number W38018, 21-4, .410, straight grip, BTFE, 26" barrels, WS1-WS2, checkered butt, single trigger, gold medalion with no intials, "CUSTOM BUILT BY WINCHESTER" on the top of the rib. price- $17,500.........(2)serial number W38025, 21-5, 20 gauge (28")IC/M + 28 gauge (26") IC/M, 2 barrel set, BTFE, single trigger, gold medallion with no initials, checkered butt, "CUSTOM BUILT BY WINCHESTER" on the top of the rib. price-$16,000..... (3) serial number W33311, 21-4, 28 gauge, 26", straight grip, checkered butt, BTFE, single trigger, WS1-WS2, gold medallion with no initials, "CUSTOM BUILT BY WINCHESTER" on the top of the rib that is upside down. (no price) These were three guns with a serial number higher than 32,000 that were NOT built by Galazan.

I'm not sure what the last Winchester serial was, but it was(and many others were) over 32000(many assembled by Galazan). The Galazan made Model 21 started at 38000. For more money, and by agreement with Olin, Galazan would, and will pull the Winchester name on a M21. W38018 & W38025 were in this catagory. W33311 was a USRA made frame that may/or may not have been assembled by Galazan.

There are hundreds of Model 21s made in the fifties that are well into the 32,000 series. I sure don't remember Tony getting in on any internet discussion about Model 21 serial numbers. If he made the claim to have made any Model 21 over serial number 32,000, he was mistaken.

Don't know where you heard that one but I never did.
As stated there are many Winchester Model 21's with serial # higher than 32K, built by Winchester. I had 33412, A 32" 12 gauge 'Custom Built By Winchester' without a W prefix, so built before 1968 and since not a Custom Grade, built before 1962. If A USRAC gun it would say 'Custom Built Winchester'.
Now this gun could have been produced from parts by Tony but I showed him the gun and he didn't make it but he did purchase it from me.-Dick

"If he made the claim to have made any Model 21 over serial number 32,000, he was mistaken."

I think this in error. The CSM M21's he's building now are serial numbers starting at 38,000. 38005 is for sale on Cabela's site now

Bill Jaqua told me that these were all built by US Repeating Arms and he had the boxes for them and they had USRA on them. I did take some pics of them standing next to some Purdey matched sets. A lot of money in that rack that day. I think the Purdeys sold for $90,000.

What part of "Galazan building them with the Winchester name(USRA) on them",at higher cost, is not being understood?
I guess it was something I just made up.

Tudurgs, go back and read the original statement by Jimmy W where he says that Tony says he made "any Model 21 over serial number 32,000". I disputed this statement and said "If he said that he made any Model 21 with a serial number over 32,000, he was mistaken." I know the wording may have been confusing, but I mean by my statement that Tony did not make all Model 21s over serial number 32,000 because Winchester and USRA made many Model 21s over serial number 32,000. Tony may have made "any Model 21 with serial number over 38,000", but he didn't make them all over 32,000.

Thats right, Bill

I didn't say you made anything up, Don. But I had once asked one of the guys who worked for him at the Louisville show about the serial numbers. He said anything higher than a serial number in the 32000s (32999) were made by Tony. When I asked about the ones that Bill sold (the three I mentioned, he said that they were made by USRA and not Galazan's. He had the boxes and the paperwork for all three of these guns. One of the other salesmen told me that they were from the Ranzau collection and were purchased by them from USRA. I remember his son telling me he had 6 Model 21s. That is why I always figured that all the guns higher than the 32000s were not all Galazan's. Just passing along the info. But I have seen a few 21s higher than in the 32000s over the years at gun shows that were easy to tell that they were older guns. I figured someone could have ordered special serial numbers which made them higher than in the 32000s. Guess we'll never know for sure.

Jimmy, back up. You originally posted "any number over 32,000". Now it's "any number over 32,999". I don't know when Tony or USRA started in serial number sequence, I only know that your original statement attributed to Tony was in error. I don't have an opinion about your "revised" statement. I have 32,000 series 21s in my collection that were made by Winchester in the fifties. Murphy

My undestanding is that all the Winchester manufactured Model 21 records reside in Cody. All the USRAC and CSMC manufacture records reside with Tony Galazan.
I think it's been made quite clear that serial #'s over a certain # are not an indication of who manufactured the Model 21.
Another item to consider is that any Model 21 serial # without a W prefix is a pre GCA or mid 1968 manufacture. The 1968 GCA required an alpha in the serial #.
I have a 1968 'Custom Grade' without a W prefix and it is indeed manufactured in the first half of 1968.
Model 21 33412 I previously referred to has no prefix so could not have been manufactured by CSMC.
A recent CSMC Model 21 Serial # I have has an SW prefix, 'S' I assume means 'small frame'.
Anything with a W prefix should be a Winchester Custom Shop, USRAC or CSMC Model 21.
Now how many Model 21's USRAC actually manufactured and how many were Manufactured by CSMC or how many 'Custom Built BY Winchester' Model 21's CSMC built from parts is only known by Tony.-Dick

The statement that surfaced a few years ago, something similar to "If we do this, that, the other, to your gun, we will insert that information in the Cody records." That kind of ended my search for an original Winchester 28 or .410. OK, so I'm a cynic!! If I ever move west, I think I'll apply for a job at the BB Museum.

You are right eightbore. I should have said higher than 32999 to be more clearer. (I have a Custom Grade in the 32000s that is made by USRA). Or higher than any number in the 32000's. This is what Tony's assistant told me. Higher than in the 32000s. So, he is saying all 21s in the 33000s or higher was made by Tony. And Jaqua's paperwork was indentical to mine. These guns were made in the early 70s which was before Tony started making them. It is easy to tell a Galazan 21 from an older Winchester or USRA gun. In fact I remember seeing a Pigeon Grade 21 that had a 33,000 number on it several years ago that was a Winchester made gun. But I can't figure out where I put the info on that. It will show up some day I guess. Just thought I'd pass along this info. Good luck.

Please explain 33412, a "Custom Built By Winchester", no W prefix and all attributes show a Pre Custom Shop gun, i.e Flat Side, Double Line Border and markings? Tony saw the gun a few years ago and wanted to purchase it at the time from me. He indicated he did not make it. I finally traded it to him this year. This gun clearly does not fit into the 33,000 rule and has no W perfix?-Dick

"My undestanding is that all the Winchester manufactured Model 21 records reside in Cody. All the USRAC and CSMC manufacture records reside with Tony Galazan."

Last week I asked Galazan's about a 38,000 number gun and was told that they had forwarded the info to Cody. Unfortunatly, Cody couldn't locate the record either

tudurgs, I don't believe what you were told is necessarily true. I have a Custom Grade that has a W32000 serial number. It was made at the USRAC and I got the paperwork from the Cody Museum about 5-6 years ago. So, I would say they have the USRA paperwork unless Galazan just got it in the past few years. He didn't use to have them....... And Dick, what you are saying is what I believe. That all of the 21s with a serial number higher than the 32000s were not necessarily built by Tony Galazan. I have always wondered how many people special ordered 21s with serial numbers in the 34, 35, 36, or 37000s. I'll bet there are some out there. I'm still wondering why USRA would stamp "Custom Built By Winchester" on the top of the rib so it can be read from the right side of the gun instead of the left side of the gun. I would say you would have to special order that or it was a mistake.

Jimmy, must be special order!
Is your USRAC "Custom Built By Winchester" or Custom Built Winchester"?
I have only been offered one USRAC gun and it was "Custom Built Winchester" and the USRAC catalog says guns are marked "Custom Built Winchester". If marked "By Winchester" I have no doubt USRAC was using up barrels they had in stock.

I think I will have my old 20 gauge Skeet Grade engraved in the 21-6 pattern and "FORWARD THE INFORMATION TO CODY" This is really scary. What do others think about this bullship?

Both of my Custom Grades say CUSTOM BUILT BY WINCHESTER. One from Winchester Repeating Arms and one from USRA. The one from Winchester was ordered by someone and has his name on it. The one from USRA only says Custom Built By Winchester. But this is not unusual. Winchester engraved their barrels so they said CUSTOM BUILT BY WINCHESTER until 1981 when they sold out. And USRA used the barrels they bought from Winchester for a few years. If I remember correctly, when the first 21s came out in 1983 that were completely built by USRA, they dropped the word "BY". This is why there is so much mishy mashy trying to figure out these guns.

Bill - I think Galazan's still has rights to operate as the official Winchester Custom Shop, so M-21 alterations they do are sent to Cody and added to the gun's official records. Jay

I have W 329XX. Started Jan 5, 1971 and final inspection Mar 18,1971. Has a vent rib with "Custom built by Winchester" that reads from the left side. No name on rib. Right cyl & left skeet#2.Inspector was B.Colburn.

I wonder who is doing the engraving for Galazan's these days. Maybe Pauline Muerrle? Now if you want your 21 engraved, I know you can still send it to her, eightbore. She was the last "in house" engraver for Winchester.

Presently, Cabela's is selling (trying to sell?) a 38,000 SN gun advertised as a "Factory Custom Shop" gun. Rib says "Custom Built Winchester". Maybe they are unclear about what they have also

I hope anyone who goes into a store as big as a Walmart knows his intended purchase better than the clerk or department manager. It really doesn't bother me that a Cabela's ad writer doesn't know what he is selling. Sometimes it's a bit of an advantage.

I have found that most of Cabela's on line gun discriptions are not accurate and that most of their gun "salesman" don't know what the hell they are talking about. The spread so much misinformation about guns that it should be a crime!

Agree about Cabela's. Went into their Dundee store several weeks ago with a pair of clean, pre-64 M70's - one a .220 Swift. The head guy on the floor sniffed, and said the it had been reblued. Apparently didn't understand that Winchester put stainless barrels on that caliber. Wasn't worth his time or mine to try to educate him. Sold the guns elsewhere

Presently, Cabela's is selling (trying to sell?) a 38,000 SN gun advertised as a "Factory Custom Shop" gun. Rib says "Custom Built Winchester". Maybe they are unclear about what they have also
"
Serial # is W38005 and is marked like Custom Shop guns without barrel markings. Rib would identify it as a USRAC gun but it has no Winchester marking on the action flats so its a toss whether whether USRAC made it or Tony from parts although based on the wood, I would say that it is a USRAC gun. Wonder what a Cody letter would say.
In any event a nice model 21!-Dick

If the Serial # is 38000 or more, it is a Galazan gun. Cabela's gun people are dumb as dirt!