I have no answers but have to say your photos do justice to the engraving detail.
jack
Reb87,
The trigger doesn't look anything like my single trigger Syracuse...If I remember correctly, the designer of the trigger that I have is Franz Jaeger, but it doesn't look al all like the Jaeger/Bittner aftermarket trigger...if you leave these pictures posted, I'll look into it in the next couple of days...perhaps I'll be able tell you who designed the trigger based on the patent record...Yours and mine are the only two I've seen...not counting the clearly aftermarket triggers by Worrest and Miller...
Both of the A grades shown are in the 5000 serial number range. I wonder why the extra engraving on the SST gun?
Have you seen a SAC gun without safety? Does your gun have a triggerplate like mine?
My gun appears to have been a two barrel set, the forend and barrel are marked with a "1". The barrel is 28 inches long with .020 and .035 restrictions. Why are there so many original two barrel guns sets that are missing one of the sets?
Ross
Calling Mr. Archer!! Calling Mr. Archer!!
The trigger appears to be at least pre 1910 or so, by the lack of any inertia blocking device*...am I correct that there is no floating weight of any sort?
Also, the color changes that indicate that the sear levers were heated before being bent, is not an indicator of an aftermarket or factory trigger. It only means that double trigger sears were modified to meet ther single trigger's bearing surfaces, as with every Western/Lefever Nitro single trigger. I say this in advance to keep the discussion on track. Otherwise it won't be long until a devil's advocate comes along and sites those colors as evidence that it's an aftermarket trigger...when in fact it both factory and aftermarket can show evidence of sear lever modifications.
* not to be confused with an inertia shifting device, this gun appears to be neither...
It has neither an inertia blocking device or a inertia shifter. It has kind of a strange feeler shifter that rides against the right hammer. I havent had time to figure out exactly how if functions yet though.
Ross
I don't know if I can add much of anything to this discussion Researcher; but, at your invitation, I'll add my opinion for whatever it may be worth. First of all, I noted this gun in the auction and came very close to jumping in the bidding (I really liked the nice beads around the breech balls, something not common to SAC guns); I didn't of course, and am glad to know that Reb, a SAC fancier, is now the proud owner. In my SAC research, I found absolutely nothing to indicate the Syracuse Arms Company was working on a single trigger design. This doesn't mean old Frank Hollenbeck or George Horne weren't working on a ST design; but we do know there are no ST patents issued assigned to the Syracuse Arms Company. Robert Chambers sent me some photos of his late Grade O gun with a single trigger (a Jaeger patent) that I believe could have been a SAC single trigger test gun due to the fact that Jaeger (a German inventor) was in the US when this gun was produced. As to the subject gun, the trigger design looks just like a photo of an early SAC gun with a single trigger that Buck Hamlin shared with me some years ago. He didn't think the trigger was factory work; but could not be sure. My personal opinion, given that the stock is a replacement, is that the trigger is aftermarket and the gun restocked as part of the trigger conversion project (although I cannot be certain either, and have no idea who did the work).
As to other questions raised, I have never recorded a SAC "live bird gun". I have not seen another SAC gun with a trigger plate screw as large as seen in this example; I suspect whoever fitted the single trigger wanted a more solid anchor point than the original smaller screw provided. As to engraving, it is not uncommon ot find early examples of A Grade SAC guns with exceptional engraving, and also different engraving patterns (no game scenes, but unusual flourishes of scroll and in odd locations). This is the only A Grade gun I have seen with raised ridges behind the breech balls. Whoever did the fitting and engraving repair did excellent work, the engraving modifications on the top strap and trigger plate appearing to be identical to the patterns on the balance of the frame; but SAC used the Glahn family for their engraving work and those guys could have engraved the modified parts long after SAC was out of business. Again, I don't have the answers but this is a very intriguing gun; I hope its history can be determined, and I'm glad it has found a great home!
It wasn't uncommon, as it isn't today, for an inventor to patent his or her idea before selling it to someone else. Unless the employee develops the patent on company time, that's usually the case, so should that de a registered design trigger, the fact that it wasn't assigned to SAC from the beginning will be less relevant than IF that patent was applied for before the end of SAC production. Let's not forget where and when we are discussing, Syracuse NY. Syracuse was perhaps the most important city in the US it terms of SxS production and evolution. Many makers and inventors were not only within the city limits but were located in the surrounding region...Ilion, Fulton, Rome...with guys like Alexander Brown, Hollenbeck, Horne, Lewis, Thorneley, and Dan Lefever kicking around...not to mention Hurst, Roy, Giddings, Charles Green, Charles Lefever and Rosenburg ...and surely these guys talked about the successes and foibles of their Syracuse predesessors Andrew Whitmore, Fay, H A Castle, Louis Diss, and L L Hepburn...and I'm not naming all of them, just a few important minds in the region...and Ithaca was just a barge hop away..
Reb says that there appears to be no filler strips in the trigger strap. Could you please double check it with magnification.
Well it has rained here and harvest is off for a while. Ill try to strip the trigger plate today and clean it up to look for fillers.
I think Tom is suggesting that the triggerplate was made by a SST convertof(outside of SAC) and engraved by the same hand that was engraving the SAC guns. I dont think that is plausible because of the rather crude modification of the internals, it looks to me like a SAC man was modifying parts to see if he could come up with a workable single trigger design and he asked for a triggerplate for this gun with no trigger slots cut. Based on the modified internal parts I cant fathom that somebody would make a new trigger plate until he came up with "new made" parts for the ST conversion(it would me much easier to modify the original plate) The trigger plate has a number under part of the new mechanism, I cant make it out with the parts in the way but Ill take the stuff off and see what it says.
Robert,
Does your gun have a modified triggerplate or one with only one slot? I would sure think that SAC would have wanted to offer a SST to go along with their higher grade guns so it seems plausible that they would have been fooling with something SST related. If only we could go back in time to Syracuse, the mecca of so many desirable American guns and talk to the players you listed above.
Tom, you have seen as many of these guns as anybody and I really appreciate your input. Thanks for your work and time.
ps Will there be an article forthcomming on that very special Syracuse gun soon?
Reb:
Yes, I am planning an article; Terry Allen has completed the photography and I've written most of the manuscript. But whenever I write, I must be in my "writer's mode" to be productive; and for whatever reason, just can't seem to find the motivation to get that article and some others I've started completed. I'll get it done soon however, and many thanks for the encouragement. In the interim, I hope you will become inspired enough to learn the truth about the SAC single trigger gun you have. Tom
Reb,
I've examined over 90 single trigger patents so far, to no avail...could you post a photo of the trigger assembled, but not stuck to the action with the sear levers in the way...maybe show a top view...I looked at several designs that were close but without that big honking selector...thanks in advance for cooperating...I want to know as the answer as much as you do
In 1919 George Giddings patented a complete over under shotgun with a single trigger and ejectors. The single trigger has the selector in the same place as your gun, but looks as though it's a refined version...it so hard to say without a better view of the trigger...that patent is 1302909 if you care to look at it...I know 1919 is much later, but can you tell me approxamately what year is your gun, and what year was their first and last year of production? This would help narrow things down some. Makes me wonder if Giddings was ever employed by Syracuse Arms....he was in the area...I think a few of the old Syracuse City Diretories are online...if only I could get my hands on a Giddings O/U...I heard that he made more than a few
Well OK...you must have posted minutes before me because I didn't see your post until I posted last...I've looked at over 150 ST patents now...I.m gonna start over using these new photos...thanks
According to Tom Archers research the gun was made ~1896. Syracuse Arms Co was making guns from approximatley 1892-1905
Reb,
Thanks, well I was close anyway, I thought the production years were from early 1893 to 1903 or early 1904, but only form Hollenbeck's and Horne's patents...reasoning if Hollenbeck applied for a Syracuse Arms assigned patent in June of '93...and Horne was apparently applying on his own by 1903 ...inferring...that either the plant dismanteling was underway, or that that Horne had parted company by that point...
I wish I could focus better on the many aspects of these mystery triggers...but I'm making great strides right now on the subject discussed earlier about putting all the inventors of the region on a proximity/timeline....maybe patterns will emerge, maybe they won't...I have no idea where hunt is taking me...
I'll try to work on the trigger hunt tonight.
Reb87,
I haven't forgotten about this thread, life's been busy...
Reb and all, I notice one thing about this gun that seems different than others. The metal work inside the gun on the triggerplate is much rougher than other guns of the same type, at least I think so. Can you look at other examples you have and see if their inside finish is better ? Oh, does the trigger work ?
, another reason not to force anything on a double gun). The This gun has no saftey and you can see where a rectangle plug was inserted into the slot for the saftey, much like the Remington 1894 Pigeon guns pictured in Semmers book. It can be seen on the bottom of the top tang but is very hard to make out looking from the top. I can see no filled slots in the triggerplate top or bottom so I think it was intended to be a ST gun from the start. 
