What is the pitch on your favorite upland gun? Been reading how important the pitch is in gun fit. I have put the pitch on a couple of my favorites to 2" and it seems to help. Not a verifiable improvement, but my head thinks it helps. Any thoughts? Randy

We all like the looks of a zero pitch stock, but I find upon recoil they always slip down out of the shooting pocket. Two to two and a half and even two and three quarters degrees of pitch works best for me.

Glenn Baker at Woodcock hill told me that most of his customers were accomodated by 5 to 7 degrees. Most of mine seem to be about 4 1/2 to 5. Not always sure how that tranlates to distance of muzzle from wall or door case but I agree that rib or barrels against the wall doesn't work for me. I changed pitch on a Brummy 12; about an 1/8" off the toe after removing colossally long stock extension and before adding pad.

jack

I cut all my stocks 90 degrees from the comb line, unless it is a monte carlo. That fits my body just fine. I don't really care what the pitch is. I want full contact between the butt and my shoulder pocket. This is the most important thing, IMO. In olden days, when shooters shot with a "head erect" position, pitch was more important in determining how high/low the gun shot. Not any more. Comb height is the determining factor in high/low impact.

Jim: I'm not trying to stir the pot, but just get right on terminology, here. If I correctly understand the concept, every stock has pitch, just like every stock has length of pull, drop, etc. And that means you really do care what the pitch is on your guns, and you specifically want it to be 0 degrees, because that's what works best for you. Does that make sense, or am I thinking wrong on this? TT

I was once fitted for a gun. The gentleman doing the fitting determined 0 pitch was best for me. I have had several guns cut with 0 pitch. I really do prefer it. For me at least, in a heavy winter coat the gun mounts much cleaner with no snags.

Pete

90 degrees to the comb line could be anything unless the comb is parallel to the rib so I don't think most of Jim's guns are zero pitch. I believe most fitter/measurer types place a straitedge on the rib extended over the butt and pick up the pitch with a T-bevel or pointer type protractor.

jack

A simple measuring method is place the buttplate flat on the floor, move the gun to a wall thats 90degress to the floor and have the fences touch the wall. Measure the distance from the wall to the muzzle. Bingo!!. FWIW, O-2" is for bunny hunting, 2-3" for upland, above 3" for New Years, July 4th celebrations and for the gun you loan your brother in law. Now go figure. Randy

The gun against the wall method will obviously give different readings if it has two sets of bbls, say 26" & 32",the longer the bbl, the further from the wall....that seems a little confusing....also the 90 degrees from comb line would vary according to the amount of drop.
The degrees taken from a straight edge laid along rib seems a more consistent way to measure it
cheers
franc

Hi TT,
I have no problem with your stirring the pot but you didn't read(or understand) what I wrote. Read it again. Rabbit understood what I said. I said nothing about 0 degrees. I agree with RMC's description of how to measure pitch. Pitch is usually described in inches the muzzle is from the wall as RMC said, not discussed in degrees. Anybody can measure pitch as RMC said, determining degrees is beyond some folks. Once more, pitch is unimportant to me. How the butt fits my shoulder pocket is.

FWIW, I deal with pitch exactly as Jim Legg does. Whether it's a 26" SxS for grouse or a 32" O/U for targets, I cut the butt at 90 deg to the comb. In conjuction with 7/8" drop from nose to heel, I end up with a gun that makes full contact with the shoulder pocket and has little tendency to pivot in recoil. It's this pivoting that I'm trying to avoid as it results in muzzle flip and face slap and , in extreme cases with guns that have virtually no pitch, causes the butt to slip down between shots.

When you guys talk about "zero" pich, I'm not sure I understand how you measure that. What I would call "zero" pitch is a gun, typical of the oldies with excessive drop, that when stood on the floor and slid against the wall will allow the muzzle to touch the wall as the top of the receiever does. THAT'S the gun that won't stay in my shoulder pocket between shots, and that's what I want to correct by adding "some" pitch. Seems "degrees" of pitch would be most quantitative if you laid a straightedge from the heel across the top of the receiver and measured the angle the barrels deflected downward (or stood the gun on the floor and slid it against the wall), but measuring that angle would be a pain for me. Far easier to measure the distance of the barrels from the wall, but then you have to specify a certain distance from the floor. Using the muzzle as a reference would give variable results depending on the barrel length, action length and even the length of pull.

Personally, I don't consider gun fit prescription numbers worth the paper they're written on. I can supply an expensive blank to a duplicator and order a stock made with 1 & 3/8 x 2 & 1/8 drop, 3/8 cast off, and specify the butt be 90 degrees to the comb and KNOW I'll have enough wood to remove 50-100 thou from the comb during sight-in. When I'm done, the gun will pattern 50/50 as I like it.The final dimensions will vary 1/16" here and there from gun to gun, and the sight picture, due to rib configuration and possibly barrel regulation, will differ too.....but they all shoot to point of aim. Nowadays, rather than provide numbers, I prefer to make a perfect pattern stock using Bondo and rasps and give that to the duplicator. It has many advantages, including less chance for miscommunication.

The point to all my rambling , as it pertains to the original question, is that I have a "formula" that guarantees the "right" pitch for me regardless of the gun I'm stocking. I don't measure it in inches or degrees, except to say that I cut the butt 90 degrees to the comb. It's simple, it works every time and I've found no better way to guarantee the right pitch.

Thank you, Mike. Neither of us are saying that this is necessarily the best way for everybody. However, if the comb is of a height that I can shoot well, it works for me. I like to keep things simple. Full contact between the butt pad and my shoulder pocket is what's important for me.
Thanks again,

Hi guys. Although I don't understand it, I agree with the comment that some guns just seem to fit right and others don't. After shooting dozens of side-by-sides of varying dimensions, though I've never been measured for a shotgun, I've found that in general I prefer about 14.5 inches of pull and 2.5 of drop at heel, but that I can make many other dimensions work for me. Oddly, I've had some guns with stock measurements that aren't close to what I think mine should be, yet I shoot the gun really well, and others that should fit just right that I can't shoot worth a darn. I don't pay much attention to pitch, but know that it can make a difference.

I am still confused on this pitch issue, though. You guys keep talking about cutting the butt at 90 degrees to the comb, but it seems to me the relation between the butt surface and the sighting plane is at least as important, if not more so, than its relation to the line of the comb, and that unless the comb line and the line of the top rib are identical on every shotgun you own, then using your method of basing the angle of the butt on the comb line will cause the relation between the butt and the sighting plane (the "pitch," as I understand it) to vary on every gun you so modify. Does that make sense? Thanks. TT

Don't mean to stink up the place, But... I pulled from the rack a recent purchase[LC Ideal] that doesn't have an original buttplate[now pachmyer] and has the pitch cut at 90 degrees to the comb. Using the wall method, I placed it against the wall the fences never touch the wall, the lever hits first and the barrels are 5 1/2" from the wall. Mounting the gun, I can feel only about an inch or so of the heal actually touching the top of the pocket. Again, I'm not up to speed on all the pitch theory, but the Ideal is going to to meet Mr. Dewalt. No intention of stepping on any toes, just an observation. Randy

The thing balanced across my wall thickness guage is a homebrewed pitch gauge. I'd just as soon measure (in degrees of angle) and layout pitch with this as stand the gun in the doorway such that the breech touches the casing and the muzzle is X distance away and then attempt to scribe a line on a piece of masking tape on the butt by sliding a chunk of plywd and pencil around the stock face. To each his own. One useful thing about zero pitch guns is that they are huge framing squares and can be used to "try" rectilinearity. Now if you had a house which had flooded and wracked, you'd want to check your house against your gun, not vice versa. But as a gun, for me the protruding toe does make the butt slip down at the shot.

jack


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Randy, my vague sense of geometry tells me that the LC must have a good bit of drop. If you are saying that the whack it at 90 to the comb rule of thumb might produce some strange anomalies. I agree.

jack

And the Brits have pitch described by two measurements: from trigger to heel and trigger to toe. Quite different conventions of "trying" and recording. Jim is right that solid butt contact in the shoulder pocket is the goal; how you say potato and tomato is custom and on-site expediency.

jack

Gentlemen, carry on the debate, get your protractors and levels out, take the saw to stock and whittle away contentedly. I'm going shooting.
Tomorrow we will discuss the splitting of the atom and whether Adolf Hitler had a bad Agent ( maybe the same one as Brittany?)

Anybody remember "Roland" who hung around the Shotgun Sports board and had a pamphlet on gunfit which he hawked around the internet? If I remember correctly, the thinking of said gent was that pitch effected POI in that a long-toed gun would slip down in the shoulder pocket and shoot high of POA and a long-heeled gun low. I think his unstated premise was that recoil and slippage on shoulder was taking place before the charge exited the bore. This has never made much sense to me as "equal and opposite reaction" certainly doesn't mean that the gun will recoil at 1200fps or even that it will get underway simultaneously with movement of the shot charge. However, to cloud the picture further, old Gough Thomas Garwood thought that flexure in the hand of very thin stocks also made guns shoot low and you'd certainly have to premise that kind of speculation on the idea that all sorts of recoil effects occur damn skippy as it were. Thoughts? Off to shoot skeet right now. Sal is probably home and dry after his "day" of shooting.

jack

Rabbit-

How firearm recoils can have a dramatic influence on point of impact. I used to compete in police revolver matches years ago. When I first started shooting all the old timers were very well versed in this. If my .357 was sighted in for the high velocity .357 rounds and I forgot to adjust the sights for the 38 wad cutter, contrary to what common sense dictated, the revolver shot high with the slower moving target round. The reason? Even in my 4" barreled revolver, the slower moving projectile was under the influence of recoil. Now whether this actually carries over to shotguns, I do not know, 1,200fps is considerably faster than the .38 target loads, on the other hand 28" of tube is considerably longer than 4".

With that said, like you, however, I am not totally sold on the recoil/point of impact theory. When your eye is your rear sight, how the gun is angled (the pitch) should, in theory have a great influence on where the shotgun shoots.

The photo below is of the stock of one of my shotguns. Before adding the pitch spacer, the shotgun was very uncomfortable for me to shoot and I was shooting it badly. I allowed a friend to shoot it and without being prompted, he said, "this thing recoils funny," and it did. The gun slipped* off the shoulder under recoil and I had a hard time hitting anything with it.

When I compared the shotgun to one I shot well (my Fox SW), I noticed the pitch was very different. So using the Fox as a rough guide, I calculated the pitch and installed a pitch spacer on the offending shotgun. Measuring the 30" barreled shotgun from the wall now gives me 1 1/2".

On the general issue of pitch, I am just a regular guy without any great mechanical skills or contraptions, so my approach was not exactly scientific, mind you. but it worked for me (“if it is stupid and it works, it isn’t stupid”). My approach was to find a shotgun I shoot well and make the other one as much like it as possible.

Doug
*edit by "slipped" I mean to say the pad was slipping down toward the arm pit and the barrels "bouncing" up.

Jack, DAH on the LC is 2 3/4". Not trying to drag this out, I just am trying to get a better understanding of this pitch thing. A book by Curtis, Guns and Gunning made a convincing argument that pitch was as important as LOP and DAH? Randy

Generally speaking, slightly more pitch down on field guns and for folks with big &/or round fronts. Too much can cause facial slap, particularly so if the gun is being shot pre-mounted. Speaking in inches up from the floor, that translates to .5~1.5" away from the jamb 26" up as the normal usable range. If you do a lot of mount & shoot patterning you can prove to yourself that there is a tendency for the gun to shoot a bit higher with less pitch down. Negative pitch or pitch up can cause a gun to slip from the shoulder pocket. FWIW, purpose built international skeet guns will almost always have more pitch down than purpose built skeet guns for American NSSA targets.

My own experience has made me of the school that pitch does matter, but its goal is to do what Jim says, make the gun fit [contact] your shoulder pocket as fully as possible. I would add 'without introducing too much of another component'.

All these opinions sent me to the books. I quote from Yardley"s book, "Gunfitting: The Quest for Perfection", page 42..."However, measuring pitch by distance of the muzzles from the perpendicular has disadvantages. It is significantly altered by barrel length. The measurement of pitch may be carried out much more accurately in a purpose-built jig which measures pitch in degrees rather than in inches or other units of distance." and "Pitch is usually downwards. With a gun set up for game shooting or sporting clays, an average pitch down measurement for a side-by-side would be about 4 degrees or 2 inches(measured in the latter case from the perpencicular surface to the top surface of the barrel or rib) and a little more, 5-6 degrees or 2.5 to 3 inches for an over-and-under; less pitch than this may, practically speaking, make the gun shoot high because pitch affects the way the gun is mounted." He then goes on to site the amount of pitch various gun notables used. Best, Dr. BILL

Rabbit, Roland is still around. He lives, or at least visits often, on the trapshooters web site BB. I have his booklet and there is some good information. Not the definitive source on fit but some good information.

As to pitch and my experience, it is similar to what bad ol' craig does. I shoot alot. Probably average 3 flats a week at sporting clays, bunker and some American trap and skeet. I own several guns. Though I primarily shoot one I do fiddle around with stocks and other guns quite a bit. I have found that the right amount of pitch is EXTREMELY important in taming recoil, especially face slap. This issue of the gun "slipping off the shoulder" is not something I am aware of. However, the gun coming up cleanly to a good position is an issue. That is kind of a combination of LOP and pitch. When that works, then if the gun slaps the face for my usually a bit more pitch is in order.
I just take off the butt pad or plate and put in some hard cardboard spacers top or bottom (for me usually top to increase pitch) till it is right. I check if it is right by shooting a round or two. Nothing real scientific. But the results are dramatic. When it is right, the gun does not noticably jump. Anyway, for what its worth.
Regards, Jake

I measured 5 of my favorite SxS guns. The results follow. (B) is barrel length, (C) is drop at comb, (H) is drop at heel and (P) is pitch , measured in the manner decribed above.
Parker: 30"(B), 1-7/16"(C), 2-7/16"(H) and 3"(P).
Lefever: 30"(B), 1-5/8"(C), 2-7/8"(H) and 3-1/2"(P).
Lefever: 30"(B), 1-7/8"(C), 3"(H) and 4-1/4"(P).
Uggie .410: 26"(B), 1-7/16"(C), 2-5/8"(H) and 2-5/8"(P).
Uggie 28: 26-3/4"(B), 1-1/2"(C), 2-1/2"(H) and 2-3/8"(P).
What does this prove? Only that most of what's been said above is true, pitch measured in the usual way varies with barrel length and is not an easy way to determine how to cut your butt. It's a lot easier to cut the angle relative to the comb line than using the pitch method. I shoot all these guns equally well(for me) and have no indication that any of them shoot high or low. What does that prove? To me, it proves that pitch is not an important factor in whether a gun shoots high or low, assuming you place your cheek on the comb, as most modern shooters do.
To dbadcraig: if you'll check it with a square, you'll find that your butt, after adding the tapered shim, is pretty close to 90 degrees from the comb line. As the Eskimo chief, in "Never Cry Wolf" said, "good idea".

Jim, thanks for posting the findings of a few of your guns. Obviously, each gun is an individual, with its own set of dimensions. My thinking is the pitch is specific to each gun and has to work in relationship to the barrel. Although I mentioned the wall measuring system, my brother and I use the top of a flat work table and a carpenter triangle and a wood wedge. Lay the gun flat, move the wedge under the barrels till the buttplate is 90 degrees and then measure the table top to the muzzles. Knowing the desired pitch just move the wedge till it has the barrels X inches as desired. Then move the triangle to to your wood adjacent to the buttplate and mark the angle on the wood to be cut. I think all guns are to each its own, and the pitch is just a part of it. But I think an important part and will continue to explore the writings on the topic. Thanks for all the comments. Randy

I second that.

I've never done this before....actually compared the pitch of these 4 Foxes that I've stocked over a period of 20 years. I've gotta say I was a bit suprised just how identical they are, though it makes sense they would be.



The first (closest) gun is my 26" 20ga grouse gun and the first shotgun I ever stocked for myself. Like several of the previous posters, I determined the right pitch by trial and error, using spacers to alter the angle of the original butt and build up the comb to the right height and slope. When I was satisfied, I found the butt angle just happened to be 90 degrees. Actually, it might have been 89 or 91, but 90 was close enough and very convenient.

10 years later, when I wanted to stock a 30" 16ga to be a dedicated clays gun, I didn't go through gyrations to measure the pitch of the 20ga so I could duplicate it; I simply cut the butt at 90 degrees and never directly compared the two.

A few years later, I did the same with a 30" 12ga for plains birds.

Currently, I'm stocking a 32" 12ga to replace the 16ga (and possibly my 32" O/U) as my primary target gun. Again I cut the butt at 90 degrees.

In every case, I tested the guns on targets and paper for hundreds of rounds, tweaking the comb height and cast before finishing & checkering. Believe me, if I'd found reason to vary the pitch between a 6lb, 26" 20ga and Anna Nicole (the 8lb, 32" 12ga), I would have. But, like LOP, pitch (provided you have "enough")is not nearly as critical to consistent shooting as a 1/8" variation in drop at face and cast. I compared apples to apples with my Foxes; I'm sure Id see more variation if I included my O/U's. Sure pitch is important, but I understand how JL can say he's happy with a range of 2 3/8 - 4 3/4", and that it pertains more to fitting the gun to the body than affecting POI.