There has long been a presumption that American makers always imported their hand-forged steel-and-iron Damascus, Twist, and Laminated barrel tubes. Wilbur F. Parker was even quoted during WWI to the effect that Parker always imported their Damascus-type barrels. My research of late has turned up evidence (some very compelling) that at least three well-known makers of the late-1860s and 1870s actually forged their own barrels: Ethan Allen ca.1868; Wesson ca.1869/70; and Parker Bros ca. 1878 et seq 1880s.

The info in general was gleaned from retrospectives in Shooting & Fishing, a pulp weekly of the 1880s thru 1906. The Ethan Allen barrels were Stub Twist, and Wesson's were Damascus with reportedly 400 pairs made. Given that Wesson stopped production in 1870 with only 229 guns made according to published reports of existing factory records, a question remains as to the other 171 barrel sets.

Rock Island Auctions sold two "Wessons" in Aug. 2005, one a true Wesson s/n 117 with all the usual markings, and another totally devoid of any marks or s/n whatsoever. It has been an article of faith that some or all of the Wesson parts were sold to other gunmakers who assembled them, which would add creedence to the Wesson-without-name scenario. Also its possible that Parker Bros bought some of the barrels and used them in early production, as I have seen several Parker back actions with two and three digit s/n's without proof marks (and have owned two: s/n 90 & 238, and as I recall s/n 129 also is without proof marks).

Parker Brothers actually advertised in various pulp weeklies in 1879 that "This company has succeeded in making their own steel barrels..." The Parker-made barrels were Laminated, and carry a special "PB" identification. A ca. 1878 G-grade hammer gun first owned by Ira Paine, one time American Wing-shot Champion, sold in James D. Julia's October 2005 auction for almost $4,000 based on the ownership provenance (otherwise it was a $1,000 wallhanger). Although not cataloged as such, this gun had Parker-made Laminated barrels.

And to put the issue of American-made Damascus barrels in the arena of FACT once and for all, John Davis, a PGCA director and Fred Kimble's biographer found letters in The American Field (November 1878) to and from Parker Brothers stating that "We import largely both Laminated and Damascus,and also manufacture a very fine Laminated--as fine, we think, as any we have ever seen imported. We have made them about eighteen months." I the same series of letters, John Blaze of Birmingham, England, a barrel forger was named, having immigrated to America to make Wesson's barrels. Whether he left Wesson for Parker's employ after Dan Wesson shut down his shotgun making in December 1870 is problematical. Other Wesson gunmakers did take jobs with Parker, most notable being Charles A. King.

What surprises me about all this is how deep I had to dig to get at what is very scant information. In the final analysis, barrel making was never the topic of much elaboration, here or in England. The senior Greener in his 1834 book, The Gun, really only scratched the surface. Going back to the 1700s the British gunning literature is almost devoid of mention of barrels, save their length and bore size. The first English language book about shooting flying is Richard Blome's Gentlemans Recreation (1686) and nothing but length mentioned here, or anywhere else till 1791 when John Acton devotes 11 pages to "Forging of Brrels," and covers "Boring and Dressing, Improvements in Manufacture, Proofs, and Casues of Bursting" in another 51 pges. But nothing that really sheds light on the process. It could be that English barrelmakers saw their "art" as a secret process best left mistified. Perhaps if it wasn't such a lost-in-history mystery the topic wouldn't be so popular on the various websites. Investigation continues. EDM

I have three Parker hammerguns- two lifters and a top lever and none of them have " proof marks ". I don't remember American shotguns having proof marks. Maybe I'm wrong and not just looking in the right spot. Also looked at my two Remington hammerguns and could find no proof marks. One of my Parker lifters has a strange type of barrel. It appears that one piece of metal about an inch wide was wraped around a mandrel and forge welded. I wouldn't call it damascus twist because it's only one type of material, not iron and steel. I've never seen mention of this anywhere. Paul

Great stuff and thanks!

Some c. 1870s Parker Hammer Lifter guns are labeled "Twist", but are clearly laminated steel. The Parker "Fine Laminated" offered on Quality I and H hammer guns in the 1899 catalog, which is a grade below the "Fine Damascus" used on Quality G guns, is likely One or Two Rod "Laminated Damascus." The 1888 Colt Patent Firearms catalog also has a quality gradation from Twist to "Laminated" to Damascus and Hunter Arms used “Laminated Steel” on Quality No. 1 L.C. Smith guns 1892-1898.

1893 10g Quality O Parker with Laminated Steel brls


The Parker, Colt, and Smith 'Laminated' brls are unlikely, however, to be "Best English Laminated Steel" since they are on lower grade guns.

It certainly stands to reason that American gunmakers would have at least experimented with barrel making for shotguns. Further, it seems most likely that a well trained barrelmaker would have come to USA to try his luck. Perhaps USA found barrel making a bit too labor intensive and that imports of good quality were cheaper.

EDM, there has been some talk that this Parker Lifter gun has Parker Bros. built barrels.

I read somewhere that Remington made some Damascus barrels for their early hammer guns. Can anyone confirm this? I know that they were barrel makers early on and made rifle barrels from pig iron and/or steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey

Bladesmith ---- years ago when Wallace Gustler was master of the gunshop in old Williamsburg, Va. , he made all his rifle bbl's by wraping a ribbon of iron around a mandrel & hand forging the ribbon together at it's seams. While this type of work was being done in colonial days, I see no reason why it couldn't have continued into the shotgun vinue to some small degree. FWIW, Ken

Ithaca ads used to state that their barrel borer, Uncle Bob Edwards, was "...the only man in the United States who ever made twist and Damascus barrels in America."

An E. Remington & Sons broadsheet from 1854 lists "Matched barrels for double guns" -- Plain Iron $4.50 -- Stubs twist, plain $8.00 -- Stubs twist, fine $10.00 -- cast steel $8.00 and solid or drilled from single bar $15.00. What we of course don't know from this broadsheet is if these tubes were made in the Mohawk Valley, or imported and sold by E. Remington & Sons.

What a marvelous job of research! Very well done! If you have names, approximate dates and perhaps a state of residence, I can dig into the census records. I am particularly interested in John Blaze. A state would help...

Claude Gaier and Greener both hint that the English came a bit late to the damascus game. I seem to remember a dating in the late 1700's, perhaps 1790?

There were certainly enough iron production going on here. I would think some of the reasons it never "took off" here as it did in Europe was simply because American gunmakers, stimulated by the experience of the American Civil War, concentrated their efforts on mass production. Which they would have valued more than hand craftsmanship.

Did RIA publish any pictures of the Wesson produced damascus? Are there any digital images of the old publications mentioned? I would love to read them.

Pete

Pete: This info is abstracted from some chapters in my new book, Parker Guns: Shooting Flying and the American Experience (Collector Books of Paducah KY, scheduled for release summer 2008). John Blaze worked for Wesson ca.1869/70 in Springfield MA. A number of Wesson's shotgun people went to work for Parker including John Stokes, a lockmaker who invented a rebounding lock used both by Wesson and later Parker Bros. As to John Blaze, I have no further info. The Parker Story, using the Meriden City Directory for 1875 shows Stokes working at Parker, but not Blaze.

As to pictures, my new book has the two RIA Wesson Damascus barrels (and guns) mentioned (s/n 117 and unmarked) plus another s/n 114 from Jim Julia, along with the Ethan Allen Stubb Twist (mine), and Ira Paine's Parker Laminated (Julia) and three Colts: Twist, Damascus and Laminated (RIA), not to mention a Parker CHE with Bernard Twist (Julia) and quite a few other examples of the barrelmaker's art. The images are all on disc with resolutions from 6,000 to 8,000 kb, and my el cheapo computer can't open the files. My publisher has the publishing program to do so, but I have to rely on the catalog pictures for reference. Sorry.

W.W.Greener once commented how the English makers favored barrels that shot the best (English Laminated), while "continental makers" (buzzwords for Belgium, France and Germany) favored barrels that looked the best (Damascus and Bernard). In the end, fashion won out and the Brits came to crave Damascus with the finest swirls, as in "My barrels and thus my gun's finer than yours"--hence Fine Gun. By the way, I just picked up Greener's 1884 second edition and it's an eye-opener how different it is from the 9th edition (1909) that has been so often reprinted--much changed over a quarter century! but the 1909 book is often quoted out of time frame.

As to the citations for letters from Parker Bros in re; making their own barrels, John Davis wrote an article about it in Parker Pages. The ad I refer to was from a December 1879 issue of Spirit of the Times; The National Sporting Library in Middleburg VA has a full run of Spirit and also Turf, Field and Farm, the 1830s et seq pulp weeklies that preceeded Parker's The American Sportsman(Oct.1871) and Forest and Stream (August 1873). Lots of info out there for the otherwise unemployed who might have the wherewithal to camp out away from home and read old stuff.

I spent the last 4 years (almost full time) writing it all down. If I sell as many as my first book, Parker Guns: The "Old Reliable" (Safari Press 1997, 2004 2nd printing), now just over 8,000 copies, my royalties will be less than McDonald's minimum wage for my trouble, and I don't get any free french fries. Refresh my recollection: is "PeteM" the Pete with a table I met in Vegas? EDM

I cant find the article right now but an old gun report article mentioned that Charles Sneider went to England and made some fine barrels and may have made some for his guns. I have two Clark and Sneider guns and one Sneider gun. Ill see if I can get some better pics taken later. Maybe one of the other Clark and Sneider owners (who know a lot more than I do) could comment further. My hammerless gun has a more unusual pattern.
Clark and Sneider Barrels
Ross

Wonderful information Ed. I will shortly resume refinishing a set of Parker G grade hammergun damascus barrels. The gun was shipped in October of 1877. This set of barrels is interesting in that they are different than most of the G grade barrels produced on later guns. While they are the typical three iron crolle pattern, the scrolls are much larger and, in my opinion, produce a more dramatic effect than the usual Parker small scroll barrels. It may be possible that these barrels were produced in Meriden and not imported. I have not seen barrels like this on later guns, so who knows. Its an intriguing thought.

EDM,

Please let me know when you go to press. I will definitely pick up a copy. I will start looking for a trace of John Blaze.

Nope not me at Vegas.

Pete

Here are pics of the Damascus barrels on my early #2288 Parker 12ga. I didnt post here because the pics are too large and make reading the text too difficult.
Ross
Parker Barrels

Parker

Ed, that Pete is Peter B not to be confused with someone new called Peter B around here. Congrats on this information. You are getting better, grasshopper.

Ed,

I was able to locate John H. Blaze.

In the US Census of 1880
Page 39, Supervisor's Dist No 60, Enumeration No 895, Line 41.
159 Crompton, Worcester, MA.
John Blaze, boarder, married, age 70, occupation Blacksmith.
no wife listed at this residence.



He also shows up in the Worchester City Directory for 1878 (residing at 50 Beacon) and 1879:


And in the 1881 Worchester City Directory.



Tracing him back to England, he appears to have come from Lincolnshire, as a John Blaze, of the correct age, is recorded in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 British census. This last is a best guess, as I do not have full access to those records.


So as you stated, it appears a master blacksmith, well trained in the making of damascus was recruited and came to Worchester to impart his knowledge.

Pete

'W.W.Greener once commented how the English makers favored barrels that shot the best (English Laminated)'


....how does a barrel shoot best?

Cdr Gunther's Sneider article is in The Gun Report, May 1992.

From my observation of a few guns here------

Wesson [no name] has Laminated marked on the rib.

Ethan Allen [trapdoor] has Fine Laminated marked on the rib.

Ethan Allen [trapdoor] special order gun has Best Laminated marked on the rib.

In 1869 the Allen guns had Fine Stub Twist for the $100 gun, and Fine Laminated for the $150 gun.

Meanwhile Parker offered Plain Finish-Iron Barrel for $50, Superior Finish-Iron Barrel for $75, and Laminated Steel barrel for $100.

Whitney's sold for $60 in 12, 13, and 14 bore and $70 for 10 and 11 bore. No mention of the barrel material. But, two samples here show unmarked Laminated steel on one and the other is marked Homogeneous Wrought Steel on the rib. This last gun seems to be a very early one.

Daryl

June, 1909 Outer's Magazine had an article written by Uncle Bob Edwards. The article -------------

In 1861 Edwards went to work in Brookton, an Ithaca suburb, where there was a barrel factory with 25 men. They made steel barrels for the U.S. Government, and iron and stub twist barrels for the country gunsmiths and gunmakers of the period. The stub twist barrels were made of horseshoe nails brought in by the country's blacksmiths. From 1861 to 1865 Edwards worked at barrel making, and " to the best of his knowledge is today [1909] the only man in the United States working at barrel boring who ever made twist and damascus barrels"

Daryl

Darryl,

Got him...

Robert W. Edwards. Born circa 1844.
1910 US Census. Residing in Caroline, Tompkins, New York.
Wife - Mary and grandson Dwight.
Occupation - Gun Barrels




Pete

Pete, that's neat. There was a little bio in the article and it went like this------------

decendent of famous Welsh family--grandfather with his family sailed from Wales in 1803 and Bob's father was born on the Atlantic-----family traveled overland with ox team to Ostego Co. New York

Would that be Welsh?

Of course. I sometimes just type away and don't look enough.

Daryl,

Actually that is in the 1910 Census records. Though the image is a bit too small. Here is a larger image. I outlined Robert Edwards in red. The last 3 columns in this enlargement give his state of birth as New York, his father's place of birth "On Ocean Welsh Parents" and his mother's place of birth as Connecticut. So it matches our man exactly.

In 1861 Robert Edwards was 15 years old. So who was the master barrel maker running the shop? Ithaca was the site of an armory. We know that the armories of the day did not merely store weapons, but also made them. That was part of the furor over the Harper's Ferry raid.



I will dig a little more and see if I can find any of the other employees working there during the 1855-1865 time frame.

Pete

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

RC, was Losey and Lull in Brookton ? What is your thought on them making stub twist barrels for the trade in the 1861-1865 period ? I have seen several heavy rifle barrels marked Lull.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Went back and found more for the Blaze in the Worcester city directories. 1865 gunsmith, 26 Oxford & 1892 blacksmith, 5 Clapp.

Here is the patent that Robert mentions: http://www.google.com/patents?id=C54AAAAAEBAJ&dq=72949

Robert, what more do you have on Losey & Lull?

Pete

About the "stub" barrels...I have a totally different view of what "stub" actually means...I'm probably wrong, so I won't aire my understanding...Most L&L barreled guns are sold as being entirely made by L&L...now that's entirely possible but highly improbable...because Losey is often the only name that appears on the gun, most assume the gun was made entirely by Losey..

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

The article by Uncle Bob says this about the "stub" twist. I guess he, at least, thought this.

"The stub and twist barrels were made from stubs of horseshoe nails brought in by the country blacksmiths, hence the name "stub" in connection with "twist", which later word refered to the grain of the barrel which twisted around in a spiral form from the breech to the muzzle."

So is this the stub twist being talked about?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83569015



I have found it confusing as this "horse shoe nail" business keeps getting brought up in the literature. I should add that I have rarely seen the Belgians refer to it. Mostly the English and American literature. To a lesser extent the Germans, but not from the period literature, mainly modern recreators.

As I understand it, and I am very open to correction here... Horse shoe nails would have been equilavent to soft tool steel today, ie, very low carbon content. Horse shoe nails would have been melted down, so any supposed effect of beating against coble stones would be negated. I seems to me that horse shoe nails were merely a source of cheap low carbon iron. Much the same to casting lead bullets from wheel weights is done today.

The billet would still have to arranged in the same way no matter the source of the metal. All the steps of forge welding, twisting etc would not be altered. Even the final etching process would not have changed.

Later the Belgians complained when coke was used to smelt instead of charcoal. But that was because it introduced silicon impurities to the product making it some what less malleable. Still after this, they went on to achieve an even higher level of technical expertise in the production of their damascus, embedding names directly into the patterns. They simply could not have had enough horses in Belgian to keep producing tons of barrels year after year.

So, again, why this talk of Horse shoe nails?

Pete

I've saw pictures of the "names" in the Damascus patterns and recall a while back there was talk of a Damascus coating or outer layer on the barrels.
When we see names in Damascus could it be just an outer coating or layer rather than through and through the barrel ?

The 'Terell' certainly appears to be within the scroll



Greener discussed barrels marketed as high grade damascus but with a thin outer pattern welded shell encasing poor quality iron.

Reb887,
Your Parker Bros hammer gun #2288 is very interesting ...
Please give me a call at: 602-439-2118 any day after 12 NOON
Mountain Time ...
THANKS !
Jim Hucaba
Phoenix, Arizona
Phone: 602-439-2118
Email: JimKucaba@aol;com

William Greener in his book "The Gun 1834" described the method of making both Stub Twist & Stub Damascus using a mixture of horseshoe nail "Stubs" & chopped coach springs. The horse nails were high grade Wrought Iron. He lamented the fact that horse nail suppliers were beginning to use "Cast" nails which were worthless for use in gun bbls & feared good quality stubs would very soon be unavailable for bbl making. These stubs were according to him those "Pulled" from the horses hooves in re-shoeing. They were not melted down but were cleaned & tumbled & mixed with the coach springs (Steel) chopped into similar size pieces. They were placed in a container & heated to a welding heat, at which time an iron rod was dipped into the mix & a "Gob" brought out as they would stick to the rod & then hammered into a strip. The finished product showed the spiral wrap of "Plain Twist" but not the continious strips, rather a series of short pieces joined in a spiral direction. Stub Damascus used the same iron a Stub Twist, but was twisted in the bar before wrapping. The Parker marked Stub Twist looks like neither. Obviously they used a different terminology than did the early English Makers. Those bbls marked "London Twist" have an appearance very similar, but not necessarily exact, to Stub Twist as pictured in W Greener's book.
Incidently in the "Machinist Trade" low carbon steel is not considered "Tool Steel". Tool Steel is used as a term for steels useful for "Making Tools" which virtually always requires a High Carbon Steel. High Speed Tool Steels are steels with other allowing ingredients which allows the tool to maintain hardness at a higher temp than will just high carbon steel, even though it may be as hard, & possibly capable of taking a "keener edge".

2-piper's description is exactly what I read in "The Gun 1834". Also, in a previous post on "Damascus Explained" a poster noted that horsenail "stubs" and horseshoes were added in Syria or Damascus. The old definitions of "steel" & "iron" seem to change or be used very loosely.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Miller, good stuff. Looks like stubs in England were the same stubs Bob Edwards refered to.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Noting Mr. Chamber's post of p.220(I assume 9th edition): on page 216: "The method of making barrels prior to the introduction of Damascus iron from the East was to forge them from plates or strips of iron-this iron manufactured from old horse-shoe nails-not perhaps so much because of the virtue in the metal as from the fact that the nail forgers were particular smiths who made the gun barrels." This could explain all the refs to horse-nails.

Kind Regards

Raimey
rse

Robert and Miller have shared some valuable knowledge. I certainly appreciate the information. They describe a very different approach from the billet method. Possibly one that has older roots in the eastern roots of welded damascus. I think it would be safe to assume that the billet method was a later development. There are examples from circa 1700 India where a type of billet was certainly used.

The Belgians relied heavily on rolling mills. They even used the history of their rolling mills to trace the development of the damascus barrel industry. Noting carefully when and where such mills were established.

Certainly the English had as many rolling mills, perhaps more. It was all part of the developing industrialization that was taking place across Europe and America. The English also used the billet method as the barrels plainly show.

So in keeping on topic with this thread. Of the existent American examples of welded damascus. Was there a dominant type? Stub vs billet so to speak. Are there examples of American produced crolle?

Pete

On a different note. I "paged" through the 1860 US Census book for Lisle. An approach I have not used much. Interesting tidbits. At the end of the book, the enumerator had a count of 1792 people. I did not keep an exact count, however, something approach 95%+ were farmers. Maybe 300-400 families in total. 1 physician, 1 school teacher, 2 wagon makers and 15-20 blacksmiths. It would appear to me that is way too many blacksmiths for a small farming community. Unless of course, they are busy making barrels.

Pete

Very interesting information, thanks to all who shared!

Craig

Pictured is a set of Parker 1877 G grade damascus barrels that I am in the process of finishing (about 3 more iterations and final logwood bath still remain). These are interesting in that they show three distinct and different components between the ribands on one of the tubes. This is somewhat unusual but clearly indicates that different rods were sometimes used in the construction of the tubes. These barrels also display more open "scrolls" than usually found on later Parker barrels. Could these atypical barrels be a set of Meriden produced barrels that EDM mentioned in his post? Who knows, but they are certainly an interesting set of barrels.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Baker went to Syracuse from Lisle to partner with LC and Leroy Smith to form the basis of the LC Smith Co. Baker had a shop on Dudley Creek before leaving for Syracuse where he made his double and 3 barrel guns. He and Leroy(with Baker's latest design) came to Ithaca circa 1883 to start the Ithaca Gun Co. The early catalogs specifically mentioned Baker's "Ithaca gun" to differentiate it from the Baker gun produced by the LC Co.
The late Jerry Swinney and I, with the help of a local historian, visited the site of the Losey and Lull forge. The mill pond and the foundation were then discernible. I remember finding a sector of a large grinding stone that we left in place. Jerry showed me a L&L catalog illustrating rifle barrels, NO shotgun barrels. At least some of the illustrations clearly were a 'twist' type composite. I don't know what happened to Jerry's research library. He was the comsummant researcher! It was a pleasure to travel with him as we did on several occasions.
The Bob Edwards home place was almost across the road from the forge. Bob Edwards shows up in the Nov. 1883 Ithaca Gun Co. time books. There is a large Edward's monument in the Brocktondale cemetery where Bob and his family are interred. BTW, Fred Crass shows up in July, 1883 if my memory serves.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

We do have some sources other than the shamelessly self-promoting W. and W.W. Greener.

Shooting Simplified By James Dalziel Dougall 1865
http://books.google.com/books?id=BkACAAAAQAAJ&dq=w+greener+barrel+patents

Shooting By Baron Thomas de Grey Walsingham, Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, Lord Charles Lennox Kerr, Archibald John Stuart-Wortley, Gerald
Lascelles, Simon Fraser Lovat 1886
http://books.google.com/books?id=MT9NF4B...th+edition+1910

From the Journal of The Federation of Insurance Institutes of Great Britain and Ireland, 1904 "Gun and Small-Arms Factories" by A.E. Patrick, p. 149-175 From 'Gun Barrels' starting on p. 159
The iron for the manufacture of sporting gun barrels was formerly made from finest scrap iron, such as old horse-shoes, nail stubs and the like. In preparing the metal for the old-fashioned laminated steel barrels, a number of scraps were collected of various proportions, the clippings of saws, steel pens, and scraps of best iron, which were placed for some time in a shaking barrel for cleansing, and then hand picked, in order that any pieces which had the appearance of cast iron might be removed. They were then cut into pieces of the same size, melted together, gathered into a bloom, and the mass placed under a tilt hammer, welded into a block of iron which was immediately rolled into bars. The bars were then cut into regular lengths, and the required quantity laid together and fastened into a faggot, this faggot was again heated in the furnace and hammered and rolled into rods of the size required by the barrel welders. The supply of fine old scrap does not now meet the demand, so at the present time the metal for gun barrels is made from a mixture of the best iron ores. The iron is made into rods, and subjected to hammering and rolling, which condenses the metal and increases the ductility and tenacity by elongating and densifying the fibres. The faggots are heated and welded seven times during the process of manufacture of the best barrel metal. The iron for the manufacture of gun barrels is made in square rods of various thicknesses for the best barrels, and in flat rods for plain twist or scelp barrels. To give the Damascus figure the square rods are first twisted, the operation being carefully overlooked to guard against one portion being twisted more rapidly than the other. This process is repeated until the rod is perfectly twisted and a regular figure in the barrel insured. It is this twisting of the rods that makes the difference between a best barrel and a common one. All Damascus barrels must be made of twisted rods. Plain twist or scelp barrels are made from plain straight rods or ribands. It is the twist in the rods that cause the figure to appear in the barrels and all iron so twisted is called "Damascus," from the town Damascus, where a similar process was first practised for the far-famed Damascus sword blades. The prepared rod is either joined to other rods or coiled and welded into a barrel singly. Damascus barrels are made from one, two, or three twisted rods, and occasionally the Continental makers use four to six rods together. The Damascus barrels, as made in England, are usually manufactured from three twisted rods, which is quite sufficient to form a very fine figure in the barrel. Laminated steel barrels are twisted and the rods welded in the same manner as the Damascus, but the rods are composed of superiour metal containing a larger percentage of steel. The rods having been twisted and the required number welded together, they are then rolled at a red heat into ribands. The ribands are then twisted into spiral form, again heated, and the coil well hammered until thoroughly welded. The proportionate amounts of the different descriptions of metal in a barrel determine its quality. Best English Damascus and modern laminated steel contain 60 per cont. of steel. The amount of steel is determined upon before making the metal into faggots for the last time. If for scelp barrels, the strips of iron are twice the thickness of the steel, the faggots being formed of alternate layers of iron and steel. In single iron Damascus barrels the proportion of iron is not much less than the steel, and although not passing through so many processes as the best barrels, is still far superiour in quality to ordinary iron. In twisting the rods every care is taken to keep the edges of the iron and steel strips to the outside, for it is the twisting of the different metals that gives the various figures in the finished barrel. The steel being hard, resists the acids employed in the browning process and retains a white or light brown hue, whilst the iron, or softer metal, is so acted upon by the acid as to be changed into a dark brown or black colour. There is nothing in the process calling for any particular notice as far as fire risk is concerned. If in a suitable building there is no more risk than in a smithy, and in the whole course of my insurance experience I can only remember having one claim for a smithy being destroyed.


I tend to agree with Salopian that the truth, or something closer to it, is "...sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury..." or maybe in some town in upstate New York.

Walt,

Thanks for sharing the memories of your trip. It is fascinating reading. I hopefully will make use of it. I need to go back and take a look at some of these smaller communities. The problem is the time line. What I am referring to is the available data takes a nose dive because the 1890 census data was damaged in a fire. I have read that there are efforts to reconstruct the records.

Robert,

In answer to your question. Thank you very much for offering to share with me. I have always held a strong belief that information, especially historical information, should be made widely available. To that end, if you would not mind, please share the information here on doublegunshop. I know there others, more skilled than myself, who could make good use of it. Someday, perhaps a GNU like public copyright should be written for such information.

Drew,

Always a treasure house of information!!

Pete

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

RC, I think that Bob Edwards must have been "among" the folks who made twist or damascus barrels in the U.S. Even his own writing , on page two of this thread, only claimed to be possibly only barrel borer to do so. Here's his statement.

From 1861 to 1865 Edwards worked at barrel making, and " to the best of his knowledge is today [1909] the only man in the United States working at barrel boring who ever made twist and damascus barrels"

It would seem that if Edwards went to Brookton [Losey and Lull] at the age of 15, then others must have taught him much about twist barrel making from that year, 1861 to 1865.

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Robert-

I am not a historian, but just a gunamker, a double gunlover, and a man who likes to know about his roots. I want to thank you for sharing information that will help us all learn where we came from. A very sincere thanks to you and eveyrone else who has posted here!!!

PS-yes, I do know my way around a forge, have made Damascus and other things back in the day!

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Post deleted by Robert Chambers

Where's the key point ?

Robert,

Continue to post the notes.

Pete

I fold

The Jerry Swinney notes:

Pete

Why should I spend hours getting it together and post someone elses data, that I CLEARLY STATED that I haven't even read yet only to be passive aggressively attacked by homeless joe...Nobody here has the guts to tell him to stop...Dave Weber, doesn't stand by his word to keep him in check...He won't let me deal with this member and he won't stop him from pooping on even raw data that I post...he even labeled me one of the three stooges for finally defending myself...then to add insult to injury he gave the post top post priority...this is the third sideways slap I've received from homeless joe since Dave issued the warning...I didn't realize that the warning applied to me only...in fact he probably doesn't even know joe hasn't stopped because nobody here has the guts to confront joe (or turn him) for fear of what happy horseshit he and Lowell may sling their way in the future....

Robert,
Its not a question of guts, there is nothing to be gained by going off on him on the internet. Some people get pleasure out of getting a rise out of others. Just ignore.
Ross

I asked a very simple question...if Robert chooses not to answer that's his business.

There is an excellent picture of a Skelp twist barrel," in the book,"Game Guns and Rifles", by Richard Akehurst, page 34. This picture shows clearly the lump of horse shoe nails stubs and the subsequent developement of the barrel coil.

There is an excellent picture of a Skelp twist barrel," in the book,"Game Guns and Rifles", by Richard Akehurst, page 34. This picture shows clearly the lump of horse shoe nails stubs and the subsequent developement of the barrel coil.

Roy,

Thanks. If any one is interested, they can purchase the book here through Dave. There are also several used copies available on Amazon.

Pete

I found an 1853 map of Motts Corners. It clearly shows Losey's Gun Factory.

Here is the overall map:


This is an enlarged snippet, look just above the "Motts Corners".


The map is very large, over 11 meg. I you want to see the full image it is at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~springport/pictures85/8544.jpg

Pete

PeteM,
If you change the last digit to 3...on your link above ...8543...it pulls up an Ithaca map that shows a ? "T Brennans Gun Foundry" and a "Gun Shop" just off Aurora St. between Owego and Green streets

Nice catch. I think some one could spend weeks going over these old maps looking for details like that. The map really shows why it was there. The river and rail road are present to supply power and transport.

Pete

More importantly, it suggests that a certain amount of skilled gunmakers were already present at the time Baker moved from Lisle to Ithaca...so perhaps it wasn't only the water power that swayed his decision to make that move...It's the first I've heard of any other gun foundry in Ithaca...

I made a mistake awhile back when I said that Ithaca was between Lisle and Mott's Corners... Mott's Corners is in the middle

Roy,

I ordered that book through Dave. Really great! Thanks for the tip. The pictures help a great deal. The picture of the skelp barrel in progress with a glob horse nails at one end is worth the price to me.

I also got Charles Semmer's "Remington Double Shotguns". He has a chapter, though short, on damascus. Pictures of such items as Boston Ohonon, Chine damascus are all there.

In that chapter Semmer suggests an interest thing. This is not primary source, but more a reminisce of Del Grego. Del Grego claimed that he remembered old time Remington employees talking about making damascus barrels and what hot work it was. Semmer suggests that Remington was not buying finished or rough tubes, but rather forged damascus billets. He further suggests that they may have had an American source.

Again, none of this is primary source and much is speculation on the part of Semmer. But it does cause me to think. Were there American sources for such a product?

Pete

To Pete of Oregon: You're being awfully quiet on this topic to be the man that I had a running battle with on another website awhile back with you saying that you knew for a fact that no American gun company had ever made their own damascus or twist barrels.

I posted this some time ago on the Damascus explained thread. Thought it appropriate to repeat it here:

This is from "Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880", U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office. They are discussing barrels - Truing or Straightening of Barrels. I thought the reference to a "twisted barrel" significant.





So, there is evidence for at least some limited American made twist or damascus barrels from as early as 1822 to as late as possibily 1880.

Pete

Pete: please keep an eye on this thread while I'm in S. Dakota and KS http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/4379-1.html
Pics of what are felt to be Parker Bros produced Damascus brls may appear.

OK. Get a rooster for me.

Pete

Ross, please keep me in mind....I live in Maryland and I am searching for C&S double guns and also McComas and Krider. Jeff