I have read several articles, including one by Roy Gunther on this site, about shooting - or not shooting - old (pre-WWII) sxs guns. I know that most pre-1900 guns and many after that date are not proofed for smokeless. That is fine, I like black powder. What are the basic guidelines for determining safe loads and guns in this category? I am eying a couple of very nice old guns and the one I buy I would like to shoot light BP loads in Cowboy Action.I may have posted a similar question before, but have been distracted by moving, so I do lots of stuff on the fly and quickly forget. Thanks.

RST cartridges will be a good place where to have information. They have a lot of choice in antique chamber lenght and low charge for people shooting as at the Vintagers.

Thanks Darnation. Since I roll my own, does RST give out advice or just sell retail?

For a small investment you can load your own.

Rudybollo,

If you tell us what gun you use, we can likely give precise advice about loads, either BP or nitro, that is, assuming gun in excellent condition.

Niklas

Rb - BP is not the key to shooting older guns. Knowing the gun's working pressure and condition are. Nitro loads can be loaded or bought that will have less pressure than is typical of BP loads. That is NOT, NOT, NOT an across the board endorsement of nitro loads in old guns! It is recognition of the fact that under certain known conditions nitro loads work. Matter of fact, typical BP loads are a tad on the high pressure side for many old guns. If you don't know what the working pressure of the gun you have is, don't shoot it - BP or nitro. Once you figure out the working pressure, then shoot either BP or nitro of appropriate pressure. Low pressure loads are good for the metal and low recoil loads are good for the wood.

To your question, perhaps the most basic place to begin is the information suggested by the proof marks if any exist. Knowing the condition of the gun, it's relative age and proof status (current measurements checked against those expected from the proof marks and/or manufacturer's data) will then help you extrapolate what pressures the gun was made to digest as well as what your current alternatives are.

OK, here is one of the candidates. It is marked "Bayard Arms" Pat. 1890. Has "piper Breech" and "damascus Finish" on barrels. CLean, tight and with bright bores. Image of proofs below.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/rudybolla/sass/bayardproofs.jpg

A well known CAS gunsmith has one of these he restored and shoots.
Another is a W. Richard side-lever. No pics of proofs.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/rudybolla/sass/sidelever3.jpg


So, as the old Nazi said in Marathon Man, "Is it safe?" :-)

I'd take the Bayard to a good smith for vetting, esp. wall thicknesses. If it checked, I'd shoot only low pressure loads. The Richards is a JABC and I'd not shoot it.

Here's some infro about Pieper-scroll down a bit for Bayard
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20henri%20gb.htm
Pieper guns ranged from junkers sold by Sears and others, to fine guns. They also supplied some very high grade damascus barrels to Remington.
Those are the usual Belgian proof marks WITHOUT the smokeless proof. The R brl is 18.4 or cylinder bore at .724 and the L is 18.1 or .7126.

What's a JABC? What kind of wall thickness should I be looking for? Chambers and tubes?

OK. It seems that many of the Belgian made guns may lack initial quality. I have quite a few options on old SXS guns. How about a couple of pointers? And how to tell a knock-off brand from the real quality ones?

The Belgian gun below has steel (fluid?) barrels and not damascus. It is a 98% gun inside and out. What do the proofs on it tell those in the know? Steep learning curve for me here. Thanks.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/rudybolla/sass/belgian12proofs.jpg

JABC = Just Another Belgium Clunker, a testament to the junk that the Belgiums flooded the market with 100 years ago, probably cost less then $10 new.
Steve

So how about Parker Bros.? I will just give the auction link. Pitted bores. Can they be polished w/o compromising strength? Stock would need attention, but not a problem for me. Remember, I am thinking mild BP CAS loads only, no hefty hunter loads.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84014589

You are going to have to forget about 99 dollar guns.

Here's yOu a nice cowbOy gun

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83876571

Do not shoot either gun until it has been vetted by a double smith. Spend the money and save your fingers. He will look at wall thickness and the general condition of the barrels and make sure it is on face.

Nitro and black both do the same thing. There is a myth that black powder is safer. The only thing that you need to do is keep th pressure down to safe levels. Metal can not tell which you are shooting only if they are too great pressure. Keep the loads to 5,000-6,000psi and you should be fine. Higher pressure loads are more likely to make th stock fail than the barrels. 75-100 years old wood can be fairly easy to crack. A basic 1100 fps load with one ounce of shot will take care of almost all your shooting needs and is very comfortable to shoot and easy on older guns.

If you shoot a 1oz load @ 1100 fps the "Stock" could care less what the chamber presure is. Max Chamber Pressure affects mainly "The Chamber". By proper powder selection a heavier shot charge can be given a higher velocity without increasing chamber pressure or sometimes even lower it. The stock will be given more strain from the increased combination of shot wt::velocity irregardless of the chamber pressure.

OK, here are some pointers. Learn enough gunmaker's names to form a basic idea of what the gun is based on the name. Learn to spot deceptive names. Learn enough about proof marks to confirm/refute the maker's name. Learn to sort maker's name, original quality, and current condition. Locate a good gunsmith you can consult on any proposed purchase. Develop an understanding of what you will get for which price. Learn the difference between functional issues and cosmetic issues. Learn what the gunsmith will charge you for the various repairs and services an old gun is likely to need. OK, that is a start.

Second, put your wallet away until you learn some of these things. Alternative, find a dealer who already knows such things and who will treat you fairly. Right now, you would be much better off to go to a reliable dealer and say, "I have $XXX to spend on a hammer gun for CAS shooting. I want #1 a safe gun, #2 a functionally reliable gun, #3 a gun that is not likely to break in the immediate future, and #4 I'll worry about cosmetics later and as I learn more about old guns.

If you want to learn, hang around here and ask questions. Ask something like, "How would you guys rate the above three guns?"

Rocketman that dealer part sounds good...in the real world it just ain't happening.
I've bought and sent back at least 7 or 8 hammer guns in the last couple of years...I'm sure several were to some of these reputable dealers you've spoke of. There's lots of dealers that can talk a good show...

You nailed it down in the last sentence...there's lots to be learned on here from lots of people.

He just starts all of his auctions at $99. Most of his hammer doubles have been selling in the $250-400 range, depending on make. Some brand name guns going $7-800, depending on condition. I am more than prepared to pay for a quality vintage hammer gun, but not interested in high-end collectablles since I plan to shoot and scuff it up.

Opinions on this one?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84006082

Steel barrels. Tight, bright and clean. I had a Crescent Arms gun (all grey) of similar vintage (Armory Steel) I bought from this dealer and shot lots of Winchester ultra lite target loads through it, as well as 50 gr FFG BP handloads. Reserve on this is pretty reasonable, considering condition. And how do I find a good gunsmith who can competently assess a doublegun?

One can buy solid hammer doubles for USD300-1000, you just have to know what you are doing and not be in a hurry. I almost refuse to buy them unless I can inspect them my self, before buying, which means little or no Internet buying. I don't want guns that someone else has "refurbished", unless I know the work to be really good and totally safe.

I also stick to guns I know well, that is, Husqvarnas, Sauers Merkels and Brownings. I almost won't look at anything else. I no longer even give "project guns" a serious look. I do buy guns that have honest wear but, only if the innards are in solid condition and lock up tight and barrels appear to have original internal and external dimensions (no agressive polishing on outside, original chamber lenghts, forcing cones, chokes and little, if any reaming of bores. Pitting of bores has to be minor, more of a "frosting" than a bunch of deep pitts. Dents have to be small (less than 1,0 mm deep and a few mm wide).

I want all the barrel metal that was originally there, in near original condition. I want tight lockup and no evidence of "blacksmith fixes" to loose hinge pins or locking bolts. I want no cracks or chips around head and tang of stock and no stock repairs in these areas. Aside from through cleaning of metal and limited refinishing of stock and, sometimes, recutting of net checkering, I do nothing but shoot the gun. I do no lengthing of chambers, no recutting of forcing cones or chokes, no reaming of bores.

Yes, I have and do shoot some old hammer doubles with ugly bores, reamed bores, extended chambers. But, those guns got lots more careful examination before deciding to keep and use them. One has given years of heavy service with low pressure, low shot weight loads -- but, lots more time and effort went into checking out that gun. Never again.

Niklas

Rudy, if that is the kind of gun your looking for, I see nothing obviously "wrong" with that one.....cross bolt MIGHT not be seating all the way, could be dirt?

If they honor an inspection period and you can have someone at least check the wall thickness/bore diameter it looks like a good gun to look at.

Nitro proofs but 2.5" chambers(at least they were back when it was shipped)

Best,
Mark

The 2.5 inch chambers are fine, since I will be loading brass Magtech 2.5 inch cases with BP only. Love blowing smoke - out of gun barrels, that is! The Greener linked above caught my eye. I guess being a fan of the movie Big Jake, Jacob Macandeles (sp?) was happy that his "Greeners" had been brought along. Does that seem a solid gun? Not in really collectable condition, perhaps. What about the asking price? Reasonable.

Now the Belgian sxs seems very solid and the proofs indicate that it has nitro as well as black powder proofs. You guys just had to make me dig for the information, didn't you? ;-) Thanks. I love doing gun research, especially on subjects I know little about.

And then there is this Parker Bros. Underlifter. Love those patent dates. No proofs in the auction. Who knows about these guns? I know, I know. Lots of questions, but now I am developing a general curiosity about these beasts.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83692461

Rudybollo,

I have taken to asking for measurements of chamber diameter and lenght, length of forcing cone, bore and chokes (length and diameters), using a bore gauge. Sometimes also OD of barrels at selected distances. In today's world where bore gauges are common, this is not unreasonable or time-consuming task. Great way to assess if bores have been messed with and to get estimate of average barrel wall thickness at various distances along the barrel. If the seller refuses, I pass.

That stock has no checkering (foreend does) leads me to think that the stock is replacment. Maybe that is when the "high gloss Browning-type" finish was applied. What else might have been done then?

Niklas

I'd go with the old Parker....chop it off and it would make a nice cowbOy gun.

Unless I looked at the wrong category, I may be fishing in the wrong pond! Can you provide a link for one of his guns?

He has a lot of guns listed in the doubleguns for sale section starting on page 10.

Go to Forum List above, select the third item which is doubleguns for sale and go to page 10 and look for George L. as the seller. There is probably 100 of them.

Here's an example of a nice English hammer gun...if it checks out.

I deleted the link this gun deserves a better death.

The late "Klunkermeister" (Russ Ruppel) thought the Remington '89 was pretty tough; so do I, and so does "Bladesmith" who worked pretty hard (five to seven rounds of nitro" to accomplish blowout on one barrel of his. However, you need to be on the lookout for barrels that aren't rotted out.

jack

Jack it's too bad there's not enough of the higher grades to go around...truth is the English built the only real hammer guns.

Here's an Adams on the Greener website...looks like the same gun with nitro proof.

http://www.wwgreener.com/antiquecf.htm

Yes, me again. :-)

Could not seem to locate the George L. list for sale (Operator error, no doubt). What about this Grove? A decent maker? Thanks for your input and patience.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976973144.htm

Grove is most likely a retailer and not a gunmaker. So, the better questions are: 1) What do you believe to be the original quality of this gun, and, 2) What do you believe to be the current condition of this gun?

I can really only go by what the seller says. If it is what he says and in condition he says and if the English guns are of a superior quality to the Belgian guns, then it could be a good deal. I found some English guns on same page listed by George Lander. Is this the George L referred to above? Is he a reliable dealer? Waiting to hear from him on a couple of inquiries.

Best advice you've been given is to go slowly and don't rush a purchase. Wait until you have vetted the gun on this site. Many guns look good in pictures only to turn out to have unacceptable flaws and many dealers expect the buyer to beware this. David

That's why I am firing all of these sale/auction links at you fellas! I shoot lots of vintage BP rifles and revolvers, but by and large sxs guns are unfamiliar to me. I did used to shoot an antique front-stuffer years ago. Never blew up.

That old grove would make a good cOwboy gun.

Hmmm, more to consider. I ain't real big, about 5'6". I shoot guns with all kinds of LOP, and the 13 3/4 would be a good fit for me.

In general, any old double with such short (less than 27-28 inches) barrels and open chokes has been modified. "Excellent bores" in any old shotguns is cause for suspecion of having been reamed, maybe lots. That is why I have taken to requesting bore diameters, measured with a bore gauge. I doubt that you will get such information from this dealer. Proceed with much caution. Frankly, I would look elsewhere.

IF you are going to shot BP with card and fiber wads, be aware that in a bore reamed enough, the card and fiber wads will not seal well enough to give decently tight and even patterns, maybe not even for the undemanding CAS use. There MAY still be enough wall thickness for the guns to be "safe".

But, getting good patterns could well require modern one-peice plastic wads -- I have two such old hammer guns -- the sellers claimed not to know or suspect that the bores had been reamed lots. Both do shoot nice patterns with one-peice plastic wads and have been used heavily and successfully with such loads.

Niklas

Since I have about completely cut out plastic in my shooting, I will exclusively be using fiber wads. I am experimenting with a template to make shot cups out of heavy paper or cereal boxes.

Rudy,

If you succeed to make paper shot cups, make some shallow ones, only 3-5 mm deep, and put them over the powder, under nitro card wad. Then you will have a gas seal wad that predates plastic version (on the bottom of one peice wads). This was worked out long, long ago (decades, century+?) to provide gas seal for bores not sealed properly by ordinary card and fiber wads. Sometime between WW1 and WW2, some USA ammo companies started to use these paper gas seal wads. I remember them from 1940s and 1950s, even later in Winchester-Western shotshells. There was once such gas seal wads from Sweden sold in USA, known by some as Swedish cup wads.

There are lots of ways to "beat the devil around the barn".

Niklas

Thanks Niklas. WIll try that. Cut down on litter! And back to guns, This looks like it has some potential. And yes, I know it is not an original coach gun. Sellers think we will believe anything. He might as well have branded Wells Fargo into the thing! ;-)

https://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976966065.htm#

This is almost identical to a gun I had years ago, but never shot. But mine was loose and had been cut to an illegal length (by someone a long time ago), so my gunshop guy scrapped it for parts.

I seem to recall earlier in the thread Rudy stated he would be using Mag-Tech brass shells. These would require oversize wads, so as long as wall thickness is safe would allow for a good bit of honing without an adverse effect on pattern. In fact guns purposely built for the brass shells were built with oversize bores. Many of the older Lefevers, Parkers etc will be found with these larger bores, & not necessarily because of honing.

From the guns you are posting Rudy I'm begining to wonder if you are really looking for a sporting hammer gun ?

2-piper,

You could easily be correct about the oversize wads needed for the mag tech brass hulls.

I do keep remembering meeting the son of a hunter and target shooter that owned a really nice Parker and used it for all his shotgun shooting for decades, BP and later early bulk powders. Seemed he much preferred the old thin brass hulls (vs factory loads in paper hulls) and his own reloads for duck and goose hunting because they killed much better. I can only think that the larger wads sealed much better, giving tighter and/or more even patterns. That gun never had the bores reamed -- the gun, like all the others his father owned -- was very well taken care of and still in excellent condition when I saw it, at least 30 years later.

Niklas

Parker made some great hammer guns. However, the lifter you posted is one of the earliest versions that has a hard, sharp angle between the water table and standing breech. These are known for receivers cracking right at that point because the stress is concentrated there. The next version and all subsequent ones had a slight radius at that junction which solved the problem.

Rabbit mentioned the Remington hammergun getting blown up by "Nitro". I know he is aware of it, just forgot to include they were somewhere between double and triple overcharges of Nitro! And it still took several to blow it. The owner was man enough to admit that he made a mistake in the powder hopper. Otherwise, an innocent gun would have been blamed and added to the "unsafe damascus" stories.

Nope! Looking for a goodsolid, vintage hammergun to shoot BP in Cowboy Action. See quite a few on the line. So as you can tell, I am not in the same category as you collectors, just looking in the right place for the advice and expertice I need to make an informed decision. Thanks for all of the help. And I am willing to entertain offers on guns you may want to cull from your own collections, if they meet my needs.

No offense Rudy but I won't even let a cowboy action shooter touch any of my guns.

OK, now that Homeless jOe is off the thread, who else can help me locate the workhorse vintage sxs hammer gun I am looking for? Does not need to be pretty or collectable. Just solid, tight and clean. Steel rather than damaskus barrels a plus, I suppose. Thanks in advance for your thoughtful input.