Hi guy's I am new to this site, and to having a classic double gun.

I got a 1911 Parker Brothers 16ga on an "0" frame with 26" barrels w/ Imp & mod chokes. It is all original and in very nice condition.

I was wondering if I want to duck hunt with this gun if I can use Tungsten Matrix. I know that Bismuth is what is best for the gun, but it is almost impossible to find 16ga Bismuth.

so what I am asking is, Is it o.k. for me to use Tungsten Matrix as long as I am not pumping a lot of rounds through the gun?

Thanks
Steve
http://www.firewatersd.com

Bismuth is gone in all gauges, not just 16. How about the new Heavy Shot Classic Doubles stuff? The Kent should be ok if you use their lighter loads (they make some stout duck loads!).
Joe

A buddy of mine runs Mack's Praire Wings in Stuttgart, AR. I had him look into Hevi-shots Classic double loads, and for right know they are only making it in 12ga and 20 ga. With no plans for 16ga. He is going to put some pressure on them to make some 16ga, but we will see what happens.

I might have to buy Bismuth shot and just reload it my self.

Since Bismuth is not loading factory ammo any more is the shot itself available for reloading? If so what is the source?

Welcome to the board, Steve.

There may be near-concensus that TM is better than bismuth where lethality on ducks is concerned, and you may use it as much as you can afford with those chokes.

If you haven't already, you may also want to have a gunsmith take a good look at the gun. Are the barrels twist, damascus or fluid steel? The Parker 16 0 frame with those chokes is good for upland birds and ducks over decoys to 35 yards.

Bismuth is just about totally gone off the market, loaded AND loose shot. Some folks are buying whatever loaded ammo they can find (often 3,5 inch 12ga, and often #2 or larger shot), just to get the shot to load.

I used bismuth and Kent TM interchangable for a couple of years. Not much, if any, difference in how they killed ducks over decoys. Both performed pretty much like Cu-plated hard Pb-alloy shot.

Only problem with Kent TM is that most of they ammo they load is overly heavy waterfowl loads. I buy the "upland game" or "field" loads whenever I can find them. They did (hope they still do) load some nice 1,0 oz loads in #6 shot at about 1250 fps. Most common 16 gauge loads are 1 1/16 oz of #5 at 1300 fps and 1 1/4 oz of #5 at 1250 fps. Both may recoil more than old wood will tolerate for long. Neither are pleasant to shoot in a 6,0 - 6,5 lb double.

Niklas

My concern with TM is hardness (see attached chart showing hardness for various shot materials). I guess if you believe that all pellets remain in the shot cup while traveling down the barrel you should be fine.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62422934@N00/2001896011

Here is a website that sells ingets of bismuth to make into your own shot.

They also sell a "easy-to-pour spherical pellet.....corresponding to shot sizes Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7½. Because of certain patent considerations, we do not offer these pellets to the public as shot, even though they certainly look and act like the very finest highest quality non-toxic shot"

http://www.huntersbismuth.com/home.html


(read #4.)

I think this will work, for those that want to reload bismuth.

Steve

CParker,

Kent Tungsten Matrix is not in that chart. TM is a plastic polymer with finely ground tungsten mixed in to increase the density. It is a soft material. After shooting a hundred or so rounds in my old hammer doubles from the 1920s and 1930s, there are no scratches. The shotcups used in Kent TM loads are really nothing more than ordinary ones used for lead alloy shot.

Niklas

Has anyone actually been able to buy anything from Hunter Bismuth? Last I knew, attempts to contact them got no response.

Thanks,

Niklas

Almost cheaper to shoot lead and pay the fine these days. Figure $3.00 a shell for the good stuff verses about a buck for lead. Shoot long enough and you could afford to pay the fine. Alright I am just dreaming. I miss lead. All these lead substitutes are like a substitute for food, sex or anything else. Just a sad replacement.

Many months back a thread was posted on how to make bismuth shot at home using a modified lead shot maker. It seemed optional then. Might be the only way, now, if the bismuth bars are still available from suppliers.

Mealman, my concern would be whether your 1911 Parker,especially in the light "0" frame was up to a diet of the pressures Kent Tungsten matrix shells generate and the old wood up to the recoil stresses. And, whether the gun is suited to 2 3/4" shells. If the Parker is in fact a 1911 dated gun it should probably have 2 9/16" chambers and would have originally been built for lower operating pressures than those we currently find in commercial shells made in the USA. Might be cheaper to get yourself an inexpensive beater like a used Rem 870 as a duck gun specialist and feed it whatever you like.

Jerry, I don't know about 16ga loads, but Kent's 12ga 2 1/2-inch one-ounce TM is 6500psi and its 2 1/2-inch 1 1/16 are 7500psi. Before I'd go to a beater---what's gunning without a good gun?---I'd be thinking of reloading for those great old American guns.

Better check your DNR regulations but repeated violations result in suspension of your hunting previledges.
I certainly agree about lead shot but this is the ECO world.-Dick

http://ecotungsten.com/online-store.html see also another thread on the board on Eco Tungsten Nice shot. Someone on the SSM BBS mentioned buying some and it costing about $1.50 per shell with this shot. I do not know what load data may be available - their web site says it is a bit harder than lead shot but considerable softer than the other tungsten alloy shot.

Does anyone have information about the "Vintage Double" product from Hevi Shot? I was looking at it this morning, and appears to be marketed at as safe in old barrels

With these prices, soon waterfowl hunting will only be for the very wealthy or for the recently divorced husband.
All the best

Let's say we shoot eight or 10 times for a limit of five blacks with a possession of 10---and maybe fewer shots. So a hunt with a limit of birds cost $30-max or so for shells or less if we reload. I'm shooting bismuth for $1.45 each. Either way, I can't see myself giving up duck shooting because of the cost of shells.

King I agree but Bismuth is gone or rapidly disappearing off the shelves.
All the best

That's funny, and I suppose somewhat sad. But, realistically, hunting has been increasing in cost overall for many decades. In Europe (yes England is in Europe too) the high cost has long been prohibitive for many. In the US, more often than not, long travel and high cost non-resident fees are endured to hunt for the 20 mil hunters out there. With public access hunting habitat shrinking, average costs will keep going up until it's an elitist activity. Hopefully, that'll keep until I'm no longer hunting. But it's still fairly expensive. This weekend, to go dove hunting at Blythe, some 200 miles away, I'll spend $150 on gas, $150 for a 2 nite room, maybe $30 on 410 shells, and probably $100 loose cash on miscellaneous dinners, beer, etc. Now I'm going to split the gas and room with my friend but still I'm looking at a $300 weekend without considering any hunting equipment... and this is the second weekend in a row of this same template.

I am spoiled by having well-stocked shelves of bismuth and lead, hulls, powders, primers etc from buying lots when I'd get a good cheque over the years. There's a big difference in reloading costs from even six or seven years ago. I'm using powders at $1.50 a can from 50 years ago. I rationalized stockpiling by saying I'm buying it for when I'm old and poor---and now I am, with barely a thought of the cost of gunning.

Good luck in Blythe.....I lieved there for 8 years and rarely hunted there other than on the CRIT reservation. I always went east to avoid the crowdsalong the river.

I is better to visit there than live through the summers!

Everything about duck hunting is expensive these days.
A box of shells can buy you a day in prime pheasant country.
Uppity duck clubs on the river can cost you a couple of smallbore quail guns per year.
The good things are - ducks can be shot where there are ponds, lakes and rivers - no trips to windblowin' northern climes.
It is now the elite shooting sport - and you gotta pay to play.
Btw Chuck, there's not a chap that would agree with you about England being in Europe!

to quote Lowell...'Btw Chuck, there's not a chap that would agree with you about England being in Europe!"

Chuck,
Wikipedia, and every resource in every library from China to South America...in every language ....says that England is located, geographically, on the European Continent. Don't worry Chuck, about 6.6 billion people agree with you.

See for yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

Wikipedia - is just a jam session mate!

I took my son deer hunting this morning and we set up around a pond. When we left a large flock of ducks (very small and fast flying) flew off the pond. A hawk or falcon of some kind flew out of a tree into the flying ducks and took one down. I wish I had a video of it.
Ross

I keep bringing this up, and I keep getting no answer-what are you guys going to feed those classic smallbores when lead is outlawed, nationwide, in perhaps 5-7 years?

Various state DNR departments have told us this was coming. Sooner, rather than later.

Are you guys that have ordered a spanking new RBL in 28 going to watch in disbelief as pheasants (someone on a board somewhere is always assuring me his 28 is more than enough for pheasants) grouse and woodcock fly off with steel shot wounds that allow escape, but, assure a slow, painful death?

Are you going to shoot clay pigeons with $3 per round loads packed with, what might as well be, moon rocks?

This is an answer that I'm very interested in hearing. Since, loaded with steel, I can't believe there could possibly be a more useless gun in the field for wild fowl than ANY 28 gauge. Keeping in mind, of course, that manufacturers likely wouldn't bother loading .410 with steel hunting loads, even if some idiot might buy them. If a 12 loaded with steel is considered marginal for wild birds, what is a 20 or 28 loaded with steel going to be considered?

An "Expert's" gun? Do tell.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

If lead is banned nationally there will be more small bore offerings in the non-tox, the market will demand it. In a modern gun Hevi-Shot will be the answer. Personally I think it is better than lead and shoot it for wild birds in any acceptable gun.

Also, banning lead for targets will be several years behind doing so for hunting.

DH

Lead is ALREADY banned for targets in some places. I have used steel, on occasion, out of a 12 gauge, for shooting clay pigeons, and it does work, however, a clay pigeon "dies" much easier than a December rooster.

Hevi-shot is better than lead. But, I can't see it getting any cheaper, regardless of what the market demands.

Tungsten is a strategic material, after all. There are far, far, more important uses for it, than civilians shooting at birds.

I also can't see going out to a clays course with four or five boxes of 28 gauge hevi-shot loads for some pleasant afternoon shooting. Wal Mart sells Winchester lead AAs for $9 a box.

If we assume the mark-up difference between 12 and 28 loads will remain about the same, what would the price of a box of 28s loaded with hevi-shot be?

A box of 12 gauge lead AAs is about $5 at Wal Mart. Should we figure about double the price for 28 gauge hevi-shot, over the 12 gauge loadings?

This is going to be an expensive pastime.

Best,
Ted

Ted, ingenuity will find an answer at a reasonable price. Who thought we'd be feeding cars corn?

As for being expensive, what isn't these days? What does a round of drinks cost at the golf or curling club, or green fees? More than a box of non-toxic shells.

I think we've had it pretty good, at the range or in the woods all these years, and that we're spoiled.

It's a matter of choosing what's most important: shooting, being a clothes-horse chasing women, drinking, drugs, smoking, golfing and curling, sports events, travel.

I choose hunting.

The future cost will be in the target games, you know, the fellows that put thousands upon thousands of rounds through their guns per year. Gun clubs will be first on the list, maybe rifle ranges also(California perhaps?)as they generate heaps of lead.
Someone will always produce some kind of nontox for the 12ga., and it won't be cheap.
...but those heady smallbores!

Ted,

Tin shot has been available on and off in europe. It is soft and cheap...but even lighter than steel. Good fer targets and thats about it but it will work.

Hunting is gunna get expensive though, no way around that if your going to be using small bores and/or tight old chokes.

Imagine though if your going to plunk 2k plus on a gun, the cost of a few boxes of shells a year at $20 - $50 is not gunna show on the radar?

Best,
Mark

I've shot Kent TM, Federal TP, and Bismuth. The tungsten based shots are 100% better than bismuth in my opinion. I duck and goose hunt a lot and am speaking from experience.

Bismuth Cartridge is out of business, Federal won't be producing the Tungsten Polymer loads any longer, and Kent TM is $35 a box for 1 1/4 duck loads. Once I'm out of my stock of shells, which should last me a couple seasons, I'm back to steel and a modern gun I suppose. I just can't afford to spend $3 a shot for the amount of shooting I do in a season.

Kent TM won't last long at those kinds of prices, I think their sales will fall off to the point that they stop producing it. I think the EcoTungsten will be more than $1.50 a shell when it all plays out. I ordered some for a friend in England and was stunned at the tiny bags he got for the amount of money it cost him.

I agree that the days of lead shot for game shooting in the US are numbered. Just heard that the government has made the entire North Slope are of Alaska a non-toxic zone. That's just them starting the process where there is barely anyone to complain. It's coming boys, better get yourselves ready. Anybody young enough to still be shooting in 20 years will see it.

I've shot live pigeons at a club that requires non-toxic shot believe it or not. Their ring faces a river and they started using it to appease the local government and wildlife services.



Destry

California has already banned lead bullets for hunting in condor country. The map I just saw looks like it covers about 1/3 of the state, and it's a big state. If I understand correctly, you can't even shoot rabbits with a .22 using lead bullets in those areas. It could get ugly, and soon.

I was on another board today and someone there posted that Eley (UK) is going to import bismuth loads soon. I don't know who the dealer will be but the load is listed on their website.

Jim

On Eley Hawk webbsite is following:

Bismuth is a metal (Bi) alloyed with tin (Sn) to give similar characteristics to lead shot. Bismuth shot is manufactured in-house by Eley Hawk using the Bleimeister or “short drop” process, the same method Eley Hawk use to produce lead shot. The resultant shot
has similar properties to lead shot in a modern trap cartridge.

Niklas

The Eley cartridges loaded with bismuth are already available here if you know where to get it apparently. The cartridges we used at the live pigeon club were 1 1/18 of #7 bismuth shot loaded by Eley. I still have a couple of them and the box they came in.


Destry

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/BismuthArticle/index.htm is a series of articles on how to make nontoxic shot with bismuth.

I do not know if bismuth works well in small shot sizes that might normally be used in small gauge guns, such as 28 gauge. Bismuth is more brittle than lead, we are told, so smaller shot sizes may allow the pellets to break up too much - I do not know. Maybe #7 or #6.5 would work out. Lower density calls for larger pellet size than lead for similar external performance, anyway.

The Ecotungsten shot is sold in #7.5 as the smallest size. Same density as lead, and a little harder. $50 per kilo - 2.2 lb. About $22.75/lb. About $1.42 per ounce. About $1.07 for a 3/4 oz load (28 gauge). Loads with normal lead shot wads, etc. I could stand that cost for hunting, but would not like it for target shooting. The harder NiceShot might pattern better than lead due to increased hardness - have to try to know for sure.

About 5 years ago I did moderate amount of pattern testing bismuth (Bi-Sn alloy shot) in 12 and 16 gauge doubles with nominal full and 1/2 chokes (based on measured constriction) and 75 cm barrels. These were either "upland" loads or handloads -- muzzle velocities in the 1200-1250 fps range -- and shot charges from 24 to 36 grams, usually 28-30 grams (1,0 to 1 1/16 oz). Got really tight, even patterns, with 1/2 choked barrels giving over 70% at 40 yards and full choke barrels giving about 80%. Shot sizes were #6 and #3 (labled #4) I found very few holes on paper that were from fragmented pellets. One load was factory buffered #5 shot, but was not patterened on paper. The 24 gram loads were 16 ga scatter loads of #6 shot, using PolyWad SpreadR disks, for decoying ducks (about 30% patterns at 40 yards - about 100% at about 20 yards).

Used that supply of Bi-Sn ever since for decoyed and jump shooting ducks and occasional goose. Performance (penetration) was very similar to that of hard Pb-Sb alloy shot, especially Cu-plated shot (both giving little dragging of feathers into flesh). Size #3 pellets usually completely penetrated mallards at 30-35 yards. Very few pellet fragments found in birds. Size #5 buffered loads were used on canada geese with clean kills at under 40 yards, ditto for #3 shot.

Understand that alloying with Sn (tin) reduces brittleness. Also understand that this was either not done initially or that amount of Sn not optimal.

Totally satisfied with bismuth for my duck shooting. Also used some #5 Kent TM Upland loads (1250 fps). Also killed well. Maybe TM is better for pass shooting beyond 40 yards, I have no experience with this.

Niklas