I am NOT a shooter or a true collector as most of the firearms that I have were obtained thru inheritance.
It is a wonderful collection that consists of a .303 Holland & Holland double rifle, 3 Purdey double rifles, 6 Dicksons (including 3 shotguns made for Charlie Gordon), an E grade Fox that has been written up in the DGJ.....firearms by Kettner, Krider, Manton (Joseph), Trulock, Wilkinson, Woodward, plus many more.
I did get "the bug" while I was researching what I have and actually bought a few ~ another cased Dickson 12 bore, a cased pair of duelling pistols w/ accessories by LeFaucheux (sp?)and a cased double rifle by A. Lancaster made for "The Maharaja of Buhlrampor"....plus others.
Sorry to ramble on.....my question is regarding how to sell such item(s) to individuals that might be interested.....I am familiar with the buy/sell board here but most of the items listed appear to be modern firearms and it does not appear to lend itself to antiques....Mr. Bill Wise (his name was SOOOOO appropriate) had advised me to take some time to learn and I have but "this stuff" does not seem to stick with me at all!
The collection has been viewed by a representative of one of the larger auction houses (2 years ago) and so I have a WIDE range of values for most of the firearms but as I am unable to determine condition, wall thickness, etc., I feel that I am at a disadvantage from the start.
I (think) that I would like to avoid the auction route in order to minimize any tax liability, although I have not totally ruled it out.....so any personal recommendations from actual consigners and their experiences would be appreciated! I have noticed that James Julia's auctions seem to have generated great numbers, but I'm not sure how to compare them to others.
With most of the collection being English, my guess is that with the current US dollar devaluation, now might be a good time to sell??
I'm gonna stop now and hope that the wisdom of this board might offer the ideas or suggestions that I may have overlooked!
ALL suggestions and comments welcome!!
Sounds quite nice. Like to see a few pics for sure, probably in the for sale section.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Now all you need is European buyers with walk in home vaults full of Euros. Many rich Asians and Arabs also like English guns. Thanks in part to the golden white idiot the $ is so low that many Europeans came to NYC to do their Christmas shopping.
I would sell those and buy some "dirt" they don't make that any more.
Now all you need is European buyers with walk in home vaults full of Euros. Many rich Asians and Arabs also like English guns. Thanks in part to the golden white idiot the $ is so low that many Europeans came to NYC to do their Christmas shopping.
I would sell those and buy some "dirt" they don't make that any more.
.....maybe
they frequent here too!!???
Unfortunately this board does not have international flavor to it (like Accuratereloading or NitroExpress), but I'm sure there are some silent multimillionaires frequenting this site. Also check Double Rifle section on Accuratereloading bbs. Some of those guys part with 20+k at drop of the hat.
It sounds like more than a few pieces you have maybe well above 30k mark.
If I were so fortunate to be in your position I would pay to have all the measurements and specifications verified by a recognized authority, including a condition report and appraisal.
Then, using this info, I would sell them on my own using the internet.
The problem with most internet sales is that you are going on the sellers impressions and, if he's so inclined, measurements.
If you enlist a reputable third party professional whose name can be used in the description, you eliminate a lot of the trepidation buyers have about cyber transactons.
WITH THOSE HIGH GRADE GUNS, I WOULD GO THE AUCTION ROUTE. I WOULD USE A LARGE AUCTION HOUSE LIKE THE ONE MENTIONED. TO TRY AND SELL ON YOUR OWN IS A PAIN. ON A COLLECTION OF THAT SIZE AND THE GRADE OF GUNS, THEY WILL CHARGE ABOUT 10% TO YOU. IT IS WORTH IT. FRANK
Good advice from Bill Wise-------that was his forte. There are auction houses that specialize in higher end guns, but they will set you back at least 25% counting buyer's and seller's premiums. If you are uncomfortable setting prices, maybe that's the way to go. Dealers will need to buy and mark up the goods. If you have the energy, then maybe private listings , like here, are the way to go. I don't think it's the same answer for everyone. What is the Krider ?
Antique or vintage guns are posted for sale for time to time. Also, you might want to contact Ron at info@charltonhallauctions.com or (803) 779-5678 at Charlton Hall Auctions in Columbia, S.C. as they may have their 2nd auction at the end of this year. Maybe post a few pics and I'm sure you will get responses of all sorts.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
If I were in your shoes, not being versed in the value of such guns and not having an established clientel nor reputation as a seller of such, I'd be inclined to take them to a reputable seller that was recommended to me, and have them sold for a consignment fee. It's a fair way for you to get your value and the seller's as well.
Good advice from Bill Wise-------that was his forte. There are auction houses that specialize in higher end guns, but they will set you back at least 25% counting buyer's and seller's premiums. If you are uncomfortable setting prices, maybe that's the way to go. Dealers will need to buy and mark up the goods. If you have the energy, then maybe private listings , like here, are the way to go. I don't think it's the same answer for everyone. What is the Krider ?
Bill was INDEED a very special man....and I was indeed fortunate to communicate directly with him back in 2002....and was dismayed to learn of his passing. It was only a few years after our initial contact that I learned of his "challenges" and his stature only grew in my eyes!
Regarding the Krider, this is the info that I have:
Krider ~ Double barrel side by side rifle-shotgun combination sporting gun by Krider. This high quality combination gun is made by one of the finest American arms makers of the period.The gun is finished in the English manner with steel patchbox and very good quality hunting sights. Shown on the gun is: "J. Krider Phila"
Anyone know which DGJ issue contains the piece on the E Grade Fox?
Anyone know which DGJ issue contains the piece on the E Grade Fox?
Pretty sad, but I don't even know....although I actually have it somewhere. The article was by the FOX EXPERT that use to live in Maryland but later moved to the west coast....washington state?....sorry that I can't remember his name either....but I KNOW that he frequents this board!!
If I were so fortunate to be in your position I would pay to have all the measurements and specifications verified by a recognized authority, including a condition report and appraisal.
..... enlist a reputable third party professional whose name can be used in the description, you eliminate a lot of the trepidation buyers have about cyber transactons.
Suggestions??
I would suggest looking at the supporters of this site. I would write them a letter, listing the guns, and asking of their interest in handling the sale.
I would also ask their fee and negotiate from there.
The fact that this is a collection, much can be gained by the agent or house in advertising that. Generates great interest.
Hope that this is helpful.
Best,
John
His name is David Noreen aka 'Researcher'.
His name is David Noreen aka 'Researcher'.
THANK YOU!!
When he discoverd that I actually had the Fox, he wasted no time in getting to me to see it for himself....as the article mentions, up until then its existance was only a rumor and he seemed absolutely delighted to be spending time with it!!.....although he was polite enough to view the others in the collection, as I recall, the only others that even peeked his interest were the two drillings....and then he was focused on the "how'd they do that" factor!! :o)
An impressive collection it is. I was honored to see it. DGJ, Volume Thirteen, Issue 4, pages 47 to 55.
I have always found Jaqua's in Findlay Ohio to be absolutely fair and honest with consignment guns. They appear to have a list of people to call when English guns come in.
VACollector, If you enjoy the human interface of selling high quality firearms then selling directly to the market through internet could prove to be very rewarding. Also there are a few trustworthy, knowledgeable and likeable gents - some of which frequent this board - who would prove to be a real and significant asset to ascertaining value, marketing and negotiating excellent financial return through the sale of the guns some of them even have the time and perhaps the inclination to do so. Sounds like you have a most impressive collection if you have the time I suspect that you could almost select the market and appropriate opportunity to sell each gun to the right person.
All the Best, Slate
You said you got a a lot of the guns through inheritance. I can't help you decide how to go about getting rid of the guns, but I would suggest you keep a few of your favorites, you may wish you didn't sell all of them sometime in the future. Just a thought.
Posted by Vacollector----------------------
Krider ~ Double barrel side by side rifle-shotgun combination sporting gun by Krider. This high quality combination gun is made by one of the finest American arms makers of the period.The gun is finished in the English manner with steel patchbox and very good quality hunting sights. Shown on the gun is: "J. Krider Phila"
Interesting to me. I assume it's a muzzleloader. When you decide what you want to do, I have an interest in the Krider.
Daryl
Conttact Niles Wheeler at Safari Outfitters. He is in Salt Point NY. I have had him sell guns on consignment for me and have bought form him. He is very knowledgable and honest. Has location very close to the NY Metropolitan area and has a good customer base of those with the ability to pay for those types of guns.
I would contact Julia's Auctions. I've dealt with a handful of auctioneers on the East coast - Devines, Amoskeag, Alderfer - and I think they do the best job.
If you don't want to go that route, I would sell the guns yourself via Gunsamerica.com and Gunsinternational.com. If your guns are good, people will pay top dollar for them.
But before I showed them to any dealer or auctioneer (or a potential buyer), I would have them looked over by someone who is a real expert in these kinds of guns. I would have them give you a detailed, written appraisal of each one and then I would go from there.
Auctioneers make mistakes. Some of them are know for some things and not for others. Others don't know English guns or have an established clientele for high-end stuff.
They're also willing to make big deals to get good guns - stuff like cutting their fees, eliminating costs to you, etc. You have to make sure they take care of you, too. A bad write up in their catalog can kill your stuff, as can crummy pics. I know it seems counterintuitive, but it does happen.
If you go to a dealer, remember this: they make their money on the buy. So it's in their best interest to pay you as little as possible. Even if you go the consignment route, you can still get burned. For that reason, I would insist on a full cash buyout up front. There aren't a lot of dealers in the US who can write a check for $50-$60,000, but some can and will. Just remember, they will do what they can to buy your guns for as little as possible (as will most people).
If you want more info, and some leads on people who can inspect those guns for you, feel free to email me at the address below.
Good luck.
OWD
hfn_03570@yahoo.com
BTW: I forgot to mention that this dealer is looking for Gordon guns:
http://www.gun-vault.com/And I know Julia's is selling step to bidders in the UK and Europe. So they can tap you into that market (and no, I don't work there ).
If you want to sell to a dealer get more than one to make an offer. It might be wise to make sure that the dealer agrees to buy all of them and not let him "Cherry Pick" what you have, although from what you describe all of them are cherrys.
Regards, Gordon
For a fairly large collection, I'd go to one of the London houses, given the strength of the pound, euro, etc. At a certain level, things like seller's commissions and photography fees become highly negotiable. The London sales attract a broad international clientel, so you could catch Russian petro-millionaires as well as Saudis, to say nothing of the odd Yank or even Brit. These days, Christies seem to specialize in quite high end, but a set of specs sent to them, Gavin Gardiner and Bonhams should elicit interest. The Gordon guns should be quite attractive. You might consider getting Dig Hadoke to act as your agent. I'm sure his fees would be returned many-fold.
" I have noticed that James Julia's auctions seem to have generated great numbers, but I'm not sure how to compare them to others."
Probably your best bet and with collection like that.When it reaches 6 figures you can negotiate the sellers commission to almost nothing.Another good auction house is Amoskeag here in New Hampshire along with Greg Martin.Be very careful of lesser ones,including the one mentioned earlier here as it is still in the learning phase you don't want them learning on your guns.You also don't want ones with bad reputations (like another here in NH and one in the midwest)
One way or the other your going to pay someone,a dealer a auction house or someone to market them.Pick your poison.It sounds like a great collection and hope you do well.
Good idea, I'm sure young Diggory could come down on that comission of his considering that couple of those double rifles could possibly net >100k.
Good lesson for some of you not so young here. You see how much easier it would be for this hombre to sell an estate in Northern Va instead of all those pia guns.
Good idea, I'm sure young Diggory could come down on that comission of his considering that couple of those double rifles could possibly net >100k.
Good lesson for some of you not so young here. You see how much easier it would be for this hombre to sell an estate in Northern Va instead of all those pia guns.
Sorry to be the dummy here, but could someone translate? A couple of these rifles could bring HOW MUCH??....which ones?
I have an estimate from a US auction house that is 2+ years old that gave an estimate of $150,000 to $250,000 for the collection. Have prices risen THAT much in the last 2+ years?
Dig's site:
http://www.vintageguns.co.uk . Double rifles and big bores have. What's the caliber of the Lancaster for
"The Maharaja of Buhlrampor"?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Good idea, I'm sure young Diggory could come down on that comission of his considering that couple of those double rifles could possibly net >100k.
Good lesson for some of you not so young here. You see how much easier it would be for this hombre to sell an estate in Northern Va instead of all those pia guns.
Sorry to be the dummy here, but could someone translate? A couple of these rifles could bring HOW MUCH??....which ones?
I have an estimate from a US auction house that is 2+ years old that gave an estimate of $150,000 to $250,000 for the collection. Have prices risen THAT much in the last 2+ years?
You will be well in excess of that, double rifles are pricey- especially H&H and Purdey. Do a little searching, you will be very pleasantly surprised.
Alex
Dig's site:
http://www.vintageguns.co.uk . Double rifles and big bores have. What's the caliber of the Lancaster for
"The Maharaja of Buhlrampor"?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks for clarification!
A Lancaster ~ a cased .450 double rifle, built for the Maharaja of Buhlrampor ~ excellent conditionThis firearm is fitted with a Rhino horn (?) stock and forearm piece but also has an extra wood replacement.
About 6 mo ago I looked at pre-WWI .465 or .500 NE Dominion grade H&H BASL in very good original shape. I thought 29k was a pretty solid bid, but the guy would not part with it for that amount.
Fifteen k buys well past best if used by date English double rifle built on humble Webley & Scott action.
VaCollector:
For the very reason that the guns are far more valuable than that estimate, I suggested you contact several possible venues.
I agree that Dig may be very able to help.
Best,
John
It may have already been asked, but is it hammer or hammerless? Steve Barnett(I think) had a similar 0.577 hammer pair(matched I believe) that only one barrel had been fired and had a little pitting around the firing pin hole on the standing breech, but anyway he was asking $72K for the pair. I would say that most here are not dealers and have a great appreciation for quality work and want the longarms to see their proper realized prices. But that's not to say a good deal wouldn't pass by either.
I'd just like to see a few pics and I would venture to bet that a few others would salivate with me like Pavlov's(?) dog.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Mr. Mann I hope this is not going to turn out like that ole Shep story with bunch of American classics from a wooden shed. I'm saying 'hasta la vista' now.
PS. Lancaster is legendary name in English rifle story going back to front loading era.
VaCollector. You sure brought up a post of great interest. Another suggestion is to contact Dan Cote' at Double Gun Journal. His publication is read world wide and the expertise Mr. Cote' has can bring together the best of appraisal, photograhy and marketing to expose your collection to a very specialized group of gunbuyers. Randy
Mr. Mann I hope this is not going to turn out like that ole Shep story with bunch of American classics from a wooden shed. I'm saying 'hasta la vista' now.
PS. Lancaster is legendary name in English rifle story going back to front loading era.
ya know I was just thinking about that old thread that fooled so many of us,ya think maybe we have been led down the same path???
I don't think that Researcher ever saw Tolley the Sheperd's collection but I loved that story none-the-less.
Descriptions are from a local appraisal done for my late Uncle by a local collector:
Purdey ~.450 caliber double side-by-side rifle by Purdey. Black powder proofed hammer gun with damascus barrels.
Rifle has been refinished. Excellent condition.
A breech loading .40 bore center fire w/ 30" damascus barrels.
Built in 1868. Side - "Purdey"; top - "J Purdey, 314 1/2
Oxford St, London"
Descriptions are from a local appraisal done for my late Uncle (around 1982) by a local collector, pics are from scanned polaroids as I can't seem to transfer pics from my old computer:
Purdey ~.450 caliber double side-by-side rifle by Purdey. Black powder proofed hammer gun with damascus barrels.
Rifle has been refinished. Excellent condition.
A breech loading .40 bore center fire w/ 30" damascus barrels.
Built in 1868. Side - "Purdey"; top - "J Purdey, 314 1/2
Oxford St, London"
Purdey ~ .450 caliber double side-by-side rifle by Purdey. Rifle has side locks, under lever break action, nitro proofed with pistol grip stock and cheek piece. Excellent condition.
A #2 EXPRESS dble w/ 25" Whitworth steel barrels.
11 lbs. 3oz. ; Built 2/24/20 ; .500/.450 3 1/2" case
75 grain 480 grain bullet; built 2/24/1920; non-ejector sn 20081
Daniel Fraser ~.303 British caliber double side by side rifle by Daniel Fraser of Scotland. Beautifully engraved top break,
box lock action. Nitro proofed and in excellent condition
with 90% of the original finish remaining.
Marked "Dan'l Fraser & Co, Gun & Rifle Manufacturers
4 Leith St Terrace, Edinburgh"
Last one for tonight....and I will try to get better pics this coming week!!
P. F. DuPont (FOX) ~12 gauge double side by side shotgun by the Philadelphia Gun Company. A costume double shotgun using a
Parker action manufactured for P. F. DuPont. The trigger
guard is signed in gold "P. F. DuPont". Excellent condition
with 90% of the original finish remaining.
One of only two "E" grade Philadelphia Guns known.
Anson & Deely boxlock.
VaCollector:
Let me be the first to thank you for sharing the pics of these wonderful guns with us. This is a very rare opportunity and we appreciate it.
Word of caution. Please insure that they are all in a very safe and secure place. Do not respond to this suggestion as there are so many that would seek them out and have no good intentions in that seeking.
Best to you and I wish you well.
Best,
John
Thanks John.....I truly appreciate your candor and am reminded of a story that my Uncle told me years ago.....seems he and a couple of his friends were at a show sharing stories, collections, etc. when a reporter arrived to record the event and the wonderful firearms that were being shared....the reporter wanted a picture for the article....and of course names for the picture....my Uncle (always wiser than I ever gave him credit for) did not reveal his name nor pose for the picture as did his fellow collectors/friends....within 6 months, the other collectors had been relieved of their collections and Unk bought a 2500 lb. safe!!....and that was before he was aware of the true value of the collection :o)
VaCollector:
Excellent effort. Very nice wood on the Purdey #2 Express. As true to form, we are as Pavlov's dog.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I would dribble them out over several tax years.
No reason to split your inheritance 50/50 with Uncle Sam.
You have real money there. Be smart about it.
Healthy skepticism will be your friend in this matter.
P. F. DuPont (FOX) ~12 gauge double side by side shotgun by the Philadelphia Gun Company. A costume double shotgun using a
Parker action manufactured for P. F. DuPont.
Probably a Philadelphia Arms frame, with the typical Parker-style sculpting and recessed hinge pin. Researcher may wish to comment on this one.
All in all, very impressive, big $. You need a trusted appraiser for the lot, and plenty of insurance. Unless you inherited these very recently, you are looking at a big tax hit. Depending on your personal financial situation, you may wish to spread out the sales over multiple years.
I'm sure Researcher did not tell you the Fox E [Philadelphia} was built on a Parker frame. Hmmmmmmm.
VaCollector: I'm not sure if you received my earlier PM. Since Raimey posted his thoughts which were the same as mine. If you decide to go the auction route I would recommend Ron Long at Charlton Hall Auctions & Digory Haddoke. True, Charlton Hall just completed their inagural sporting guns auction and learned a lot from that. Digory was involved in the appraisels & all gun measurements and I was highly impressed with his expertise. He will be back in June or July to appraise and measure guns for the December 2008 auction where he will also be present. Charlton Hall has been in the auction business since 1929 and has an international following. You can reach Ron at (803) 779-5678 or on his cell at (803) 466-6244. His e-mail is info@charltonhallauctions.com. He is straight as an arrow and will treat you right.
One problem in dealing with the U.K. auction houses is that they are forced to tack on a 17.5% VAT for guns being re-imported into the U.K. That, together with the shipping costs involved, would severely eat into what a qualified bidder would pay. Charlton Hall will send a bonded shipper to pick up your collection and I'm sure that Ron & Dig would travel to your place in Virginia to do the appraisels.
As also suggested I would consult with your tax attorney beforehand to learn how best to avoid excessive inheritance taxes
You seem to have an amazing and valuable collection and you must have been very special to your uncle.
Best Regards, George Lander
palmettotreasure@aol.com
Phone (803) 429-5828
Very interesting collection indeed. I second the vote for Mr. Cote, and if he cannot or chooses not to offer his opinion, he will be able to direct you towards a number of excellent professionals who will. As for the P. F. DuPont, it does not appear to be a Parker action. From the looks of it, it is a true Philadelphia action. The floor plate is a bit different than a Parker, and it lacks a dolls head and the characteristic plug screws on a Parker. Philadelphia Gun made a decent number of firearms with recessed pins similar to a Parker early on. Boy does that Frasier have beautiful case colors and wood. Updated pictures would be a wonderful treat
That in my opinion is a Philadelphia fox..very nice indeed
If I were so fortunate to be in your position I would pay to have all the measurements and specifications verified by a recognized authority, including a condition report and appraisal.
..... enlist a reputable third party professional whose name can be used in the description, you eliminate a lot of the trepidation buyers have about cyber transactions.
Suggestions??
Perhaps Dig, or any of the double gun geniuses working in this country, Mr. Trevallion comes to mind.
I am not one that will ever be in the same rarified air as your fine collection, but being one that did have a bit to do with the collector car market, I have a suggestion. First, I would get no less than two but no more than three independent appraisals for each and for the collection, if purchased as a whole unit.
A call to the folks that run the "Vintagers" event may be able to give a you a suggestion or two also. No shortage of disposable income at those events.
Diggory Hadoke is the first to come to mind along with Charles Schneible of British Sporting Arms, Millbrook, NY. (www.bsa.com) The third is Toby at Heritage Guns (http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/hgframset.htm) All three have been most helpful to me with even the most mundane and trivial questions.
If I win the Lottery this week, I will send you a note and be on my way to take the entire lot off your hands!
"Charlton Hall just completed their inagural sporting guns auction and learned a lot from that."
That has yet to be seen. The last thing you want to do with that collection is let a auction house that has not had sucess selling fine guns learn on yours.That is bad advice to "steer" (using RE term in its true meaning) someone with those guns there.
If you go with an auction house go with one that has SOLD guns in the six figures not one that is learning.
"A Philadelphia Fox" is partially correct. Actually, "A Philadelphia Arms Company" gun (not Philadelphia Gun Company), made under the supervision of Ansley Fox, probably with the name "Fox" on the receiver.
By the way, what's all this talk about tax obligations? I don't understand any of that. Please explain.
I agree with eightbore on the tax comments.
This is an inheritance and ,as far as I know, not subject to taxes.
It would seem to me that instead of taxes to be paid, a deduction might be made on a return for the fees paid in selling.
Check with your tax accountant.
I also agree with DaveK on whom to think of as an agent. Go with the big dogs when dealing with the big dogs.
Best,
John
It depends on when the title of transfer took place, items transfer at the value on the date of transfer, if held for a couple of years before selling you would have capital gain associated with increase of value from date of transfer until date of sale, or loss of same.
I am not a tax attorney nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night,consult your tax attorney on tax matters.
Absolutely agree with Dave K and John Mann in choosing an auction firm. Charlton Hall is a freshman in the Pro Bowl, so far as many here are concerned. They may well have been "in business" since 1929, but they have apparently only been in the business of auctioning fine sporting arms since 2007. Their two supporters here can make all the suggestions they care to, they are still "Babes In The Woods" when it comes to the types of guns you are considering offering. Go with the oldest and most experienced top names in the country, not the newest and least experienced. You have entirely too much to risk. Hopefully Charlton Hall will gain stature with experience. You have already been given the appropriate names above.
Inheritance taxes are paid on the estate, by the estate, when a person dies. Any inheritance taxes due were paid (or should have been paid) by the estate when the estate was settled. The guns should have been valued at that time to settle the estate. VA collector has no inheritance taxes to pay. However, someone inheriting real property (VA Collector)would have a basis in that property that was the value placed on the property on the date of death. If VA Collector sells the guns for more than the date of death value he would/should pay capital gains taxes. If the guns were valued low for estate tax purposes, VA Collector could have a substantial capital gains tax.
Rick, you're a nice guy, but not a tax accountant. Any piece of personal property I inherit and pay tax on becomes a piece of personal property. I am not obligated to keep track of that stuff. A John Deere lawn tractor, a silver plated brass bracelet, a set of off road tires for my Land Rover, get serious. If I sell them at my next yard sale for more than their declared value at my uncle's death, what forms should I fill out??? Capital gains on a lawn tractor or a shotgun???
Bill, there is a capital gain accountable on Sch D in the event of sale of personal property for more than the basis in that property.
The basis in inherited property is established in the administration of the estate and is either the fair market value at the date of death or on the "alternate" date 6 months later.
And yes, I have personally filed capital gains on firearms.
Roscoe
Bill, Thank you for calling me a nice guy. Not too many people do that. However, according to the IRS most property you own and use for personal purposes, pleasure or investment is a capital asset. For example your house, furniture, car, stocks and bonds are capital assets..any property held by you except that used in a trade or business. Basis is the amount of your investment in property for tax purposes. You need to know your basis to figure any gain or loss on the sale or other disposition of the property. You must keep accurate records that show the basis and adjusted basis of your property. Your records should show the purchase price, including commissions, increases to basis, such as the cost of improvements and decreases to basis, such as depreciation.
The Govt. does not spend the time or energy worrying about your lawn tractor, Land Rover tires etc. all in which you can generally show considerable depreciation, or selling a gun every now and then. Disposing of a high vauled gun collection in one full swoop may be a different story. JMHO.
Rick, I'll remember that when I dispose of my Model 37S twenty gauge two barrel set and my high condition late 4E. Since I trust my friend, Capt. Curl, to be my legal advisor on gun matters, I will start keeping better records. Please let my know how to compute "basis" on transfers of personal property at the death of a spouse. Is that a loophole for a widow or widower?
You know, some gents on this board might be interested in buying something of him. Perhaps there is an ole fowler in very good condition from: Boswell, Greener, Tolley, Bland, Pape,.... in that luvly bunch. I would pay cash eqivalent in Euros.
Roscoe,
Visiting your web site is truly an experience to be savored. Most professional presentation I've seen on the Internet, not to mention the exquisite examples of the gun makers art photographed to perfection to be found there. Thank you.
You know, some gents on this board might be interested in buying something of him. Perhaps there is an ole fowler in very good condition from: Boswell, Greener, Tolley, Bland, Pape,.... in that luvly bunch. I would pay cash eqivalent in Euros.
This just might fit the bill!!?? -
Wm. Smith of London ~ Flint lock double barrel side by side shotgun by Wm. Smith of London. No serial number. Top gold next to locks marked "Gulley".
I have been told that the best way of not paying inheritance tax is to have the person sell you the items listed for $1.00. All legal and binding.
WITH THOSE HIGH GRADE GUNS, I WOULD GO THE AUCTION ROUTE. I WOULD USE A LARGE AUCTION HOUSE LIKE THE ONE MENTIONED. TO TRY AND SELL ON YOUR OWN IS A PAIN. ON A COLLECTION OF THAT SIZE AND THE GRADE OF GUNS, THEY WILL CHARGE ABOUT 10% TO YOU. IT IS WORTH IT. FRANK
Sharpsrifle, I take your comments as a high compliment. Thank you.
Roscoe
Bill, Why don't you sell me the M37S two barrel set and the high condition 4E for less than you paid for them and take a capital loss on your 1040? Your conscience will be clear and it will be my problem down the road. I could even Will them back to you and you would get a step-up in basis.
Mr. Stephenson,
Please do take my comments about your web site as a most sincere compliment, your guns and site are first tier.
VA Collector,
Perhaps you should contact Roscoe Stephenson and discuss the many options that have been presented on this forum. One look at
http://www.RoscoeStephenson.com should tell you he knows a thing or two about quality, and since he's an attorney located in Covington, VA there's a possibility he's close enough to provide "hands-on" advice. Just a thought since I don't know neither of you, but what have you got to lose?
One thing is certain. We're all impressed with the high quality of the arms your uncle bequeathed to you. Any collector would think they'd died and gone to heaven to have such arms given to them. I suspect that the appraisal you received 2+ years ago is a bit on the low end. If most of the collection is of the quality you've posted here, I think you can multiple it by 3 or 4 to get a more realistic figure. Consequently, seeking the very best professional advice is a necessity. Unless you're knowledgeable yourself, sell only through a dealer/broker with a track record for selling high end guns to an established client list with DEEP pockets!
I found some earlier pics of several of the firearms
http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/VaCollector/ and have uploaded them to photobucket. Some of the caps MAY not be correct as I was going from a very cloudy memory....so PLEASE let me know if something doesn't look right....otherwise....enjoy the pics!
http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh179/VaCollector/
VaCollector: Regardless of what Chief & Dave K said (or perhaps in agreement) you should speak with several auction houses including Charlton Hall, Greg Martin & James Julia before choosing. I would, however, select one on this side of the pond for the reasons before given if you decide to go the auction route.
Best Regards, George
Keeping a gun in the family is important ya - but which one eh?
I wouldn't think your uncle too happy if you sold 'em all just to winter in the south of France!
VA Collector, the poster "Capt Curl" is a collector of English guns, a wonderful source of information for you if you would consider contacting him through the web address that he provides with his posts. He is located in Virginia and would be available to you for advice. Bill Murphy
Keeping a gun in the family is important ya - but which one eh?
I wouldn't think your uncle too happy if you sold 'em all just to winter in the south of France!
How true!.....I have several picked out....and they are not the more expensive firearms, but the ones that I can remember him holding and telling the stories about....there is a flintlock double rifle by Ezekiel Baker that states on the barrells "Gunmaker to His Majesty" (in gold leaf) that he loved to hold and clean...all the time wondering where it had been and who may have held it prior.....
I have a similar memory regarding the double shotgun that was always referred to as "The DuPont" gun....actually the "E" grade Fox by The Philadelphia Gun Co. (I think)....known as such to us because of the gold signed trigger guard ~ "P.F. DuPont".....and then I would be reminded that he was one of THE DuPonts and that
"the DuPont family just might want this gun back someday"..........I know that there were other stories, but I was too young and too busy with other things to make the time to listen....and then he had a stroke in 1993 and then his interest in the guns was gone....learning to walk and speak again became much more important...of course!!
There is a single barrel Dickson shotgun that is very light, about 6 lbs. I think, that has the Crest of The Chisolm Clan (not sure who they were but I have always imagined them to be a Scottish family of some means) that I have always liked.....and then the double barrel flintlock shotgun (cased) by William Smith has also been one of my favs to admire and hold....and you have to remember that I am not a hunter or a shooter, so my affinity for any of them comes from a different place than those folks (I would think)....
As an art collector (another of my Uncle's passions), it seems that the workmanship on most of these firearms lends itself to that category....and then they ALL become "keepers" in my eye....
But to address the other part of your original comment....I truly think that Unk would want me to get these wonderful examples of art, history and the best gun making skills, into true collectors and shooters hands....to be admired, enjoyed and shot as they were intended....rather than have them to continue to languish here in the safe....
Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions!
VaCollector-
I am thinking (hoping?) we are relatives. Share the goodies! In all seriousness, you have a fantastic collection. Your photobucket album will likely turn many grown men into something like a giddy teen drooling over a Victoria's Secret catalog.
Best of luck to you.
Alex
I think you have taken the first step by posting your intent and collection. I have purchased from both auction house and directly from an individual. I think it is advatageous for a buyer and seller to interact if possible. The auction house makes money on both ends and the difference between what the buyer pays and the seller receives is a considerable amount, in the realm of 30%, give or take 5% or so. I would be interested in your Holland rifle, if in fact you decide to sell it.
Hello - including the FOX - what American shotguns do you have?
that is what I would like. tell me more about the FOX
thanks
Tony
VaCollector,
You have a wonderful collection of firearms. You have been given some great advice on how to liquidate. There are a number I would love to own as many others on this board have also stated.
While there are many dealers and auction houses to chose from, picking one or two is not easy. One way to educate yourself and to meet a number of these people would be to attend a prominent gun show such as the Antique Arms show in Las Vegas. It starts Jauary 18th and runs for three days. You would find many examples similar to yours and can get an idea of what the asking price is (sometimes much different than the selling price). You could ask all the questions you wanted and see and feel the enthusiasm of the crowd. You may even change your mind and want to keep your collection! Good luck on whatever direction you go. Keep us posted.
Chris
Nice stuff!
That Dickson hammergun looks real nice. If you decide to sell the guns yourself, please let me know.
I'll find a way to afford that gun.
Good luck.
OWD
And Capt Curl has a nice site and some great guns. He knows his stuff. The only problem with him is this friend he has who won't sell a certain Belgian sidelock to me.
Absolutely agree with Dave K and John Mann in choosing an auction firm. Charlton Hall is a freshman in the Pro Bowl, so far as many here are concerned. They may well have been "in business" since 1929, but they have apparently only been in the business of auctioning fine sporting arms since 2007. Their two supporters here can make all the suggestions they care to, they are still "Babes In The Woods" when it comes to the types of guns you are considering offering. Go with the oldest and most experienced top names in the country, not the newest and least experienced. You have entirely too much to risk. Hopefully Charlton Hall will gain stature with experience. You have already been given the appropriate names above.
Mr. ChiefShotgun:
I concur for the most part on your response and only suggested Charlton Hall Auction, in conjunction with Dig & Hermann, as another opinion in the quest from additional opinions.
Ha, Ha, Ha, :). Not to hijack this thread or to distract from this wonderful collection, and this being my last post on this thread regarding Charlton Hall Auction house: whether pass or fail, win or lose, make it or not, I wish to be considered a “supporter” of the Charlton Hall Auction house in their venture. And if indeed they do make it, then so much the better. Seeing that you intend to put a numeric value on the number of “supporters”, then for me and me only, please have the decency to refer to me in name :).
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
VaCollector: If you inherited the guns upon your uncle's death, then you enjoy the step-up in basis referred to by an earlier poster. If, however, your uncle simply gave you the guns prior to his death (and there is room for argument about what constitutes "giving" you the guns, constructive receipt and all that), then there may be some lingering gift tax issues to deal with. Either way, you or the estate may need a contemporaneous appraisal as of the time you received the guns, either to establish gift tax liabilities or to establish your stepped-up basis in these guns. Absent fraud, the statute may have already run on the gift tax question. The value of the collection seems to be such that you need the best advisors available, both on tax matters and on the possible sale of the collection.
Looks like high quality 1820ish piece. Sadly there is nothing I can do with that gun. Who do you think I am Lt. Col. Peter Hawker?