I saw program showing the new Model 70 as made by FN. They were touting the new three lever trigger. Now its the same mess of parts sandwiched between two plates that allows gunk and crud to collect and gum up or freeze up the trigger that most other makers use. I have had to clean many Rem 700 triggers due to coagulated oil and crap in the mechanisms. I always thought that that was one of the redeeming qualities of the M70 trigger, no plates around the parts. Progress, right?!

your thoughts

Vrian ---- may I suggest you have these parts plated by Metalife with their Stainless Chromium process. The plating is only one mil thick & requires no lub. The parts will feel as if they were highly polish & tuned. I have used this process for years and never been dissapointed. This finish will also stand 300 hours in a heated brine spray without showing any signs of oxidation. FWIW, ken

Brian,
I've had both the M70 2 lever and Rem 700 along with other enclosed and partially enclosed triggers for decades. I've not had any problem with them. I clean them once every decade or so and use Rem lube very sparingly on them.

I saw the show as well. I liked what I heard. I think they could be a more finely machined gun than those of the past, given the rep of the facility that makes them now. I like the fact that they are being made again and in the US. It's bad about the New Haven plant and it's people losing their jobs. Businesses can't or won't always do things that are nice or maintain traditions.

This is a Jewell Model 70 trigger.


It is not much different than the Tubb, Shilen, Timney or others.
In my experience, depending on the gun, most competition triggers are like this.
I see no problem. Most of my competition triggers are set for 2-3oz. My hunting triggers are set for 2lbs.
I have never had any problems with build up in a trigger mechanism.

That Jewell trigger will adjust from 1 1/2oz to 4lbs, it costs over $200 at Sinclair.
The new Winchester trigger goes down to 3lbs, which is just fine for a hunting rifle.

Pete

Petem what is the lever on this trigger for ? mc

It is the safety.

Pete

Brian-

I agree with you, but perhaps for different reasons. I'll not argue whether the new trigger (safety, wood or checkering for that matter) is worse (or better). The bolt-action rifle has been perfected how many different times? Is there always room for improvement? Sure. But when will the company (or companies as the case may be) doing business as Winchester Repeating Arms wake up and realize that there is a demand in the market for the old pre-'64 Winchester Mod 70.

There is an emotional attachment for whatever reason to the pre-'64 version of this rifle and I think many potential customers simply want the old one back. With modern CNC, there is no reason why that couldn't be done. Instead all they deliver to the consumer is something close coupled with marketing to get the consumer to overlook the differences.

Most of us remember when Coca Cola made the same sort of mistake with New Coke and had enough sense to reverse course when the consumer didn't buy the marketing hype.

I am not saying Winchester couldn't give this new one away...I'd be first in line, but I would not part with cash for one and Winchester couldn't trade me out of my pre-'64 if they offered me 4 of their new rifles in exchange.


Doug

Well,
I can tell you that in my limited experience (25 years operating my own shop) part time (25-35 hours a week) that the triggers came in the shop that were non funtioning I have had to dis-assemble and clean were overwhelimingly Remington 600-700 triggers. Oil gets down in them and dries and hardens and gums them to the poiint that they wont work. I have never had to do that with a Win 70 or a Mauser with roiginal style trigger lock work.

Plating doesnt prevent oil form drying and gumming. It also doesnt prevent freezing rain from dripping down in and freezing and preventing function. I have personaly observed that more than once.
How often does this all happen? Not very but how I like that simple trigger.

I would suggest that one should try the new Model 70 triggers be saying very much bad about them.

Not saying they arent good, just like the simplicity of the old.

Just my observation, but I believe the argument of whether to faithfully remake the M70 is moot.

Those that are old enough or nostalgic enough to want a real pre-64 will seek them out and settle for no remake, faithful or not.

The new one could be made to much higher quality but then even that fact would be snubbed by some. The fact that they are made in any other place than the original building would be snubbed. The fact that the owners are just using the Winchester name under license would be snubbed. It'd go on forever.

Frankly, I think the opportunity to capitalize on fixing the mistake made in 1964 has passed. That was FORTY-FOUR years ago! I'd be surprised if this current version could be a business success in just the traditional walnut/blue steel configurations. It'll take modern variations of plastic stocks, stainless and maybe titanium to stay viable in todays massproduced boltgun market. A walk thru any large volume boltgun dealer's shop will confirm this. The younger hunters buy new guns. Older hunters either have their guns or are looking for that one they always wanted, you know... that pre-64.

BTW, I have a USRAC "Classic" pre-64 clone in .264 with the BOSS. No. That ugly BOSS is not traditional, but that thing really works.

Chuck-

Your observations are obviously along the lines of the corporate thinking and are very difficult to dispute.

However, I think a faithful reproduction could be commercially viable proposition no matter who made it or where it was made (look at the 1911 for proof of this, lots of young shooters are still buying those in spite of the fact that they are nearing the century mark in terms of design, made by a variety of companies and made of antiquated materials...such as carbon steel and wood).

Anyone who wants a synthetic and stainless firearm has, as you point out, many options and likely if that is what they want will not settle for the Winchester unless the Winchester offers more value for the money. The bolt gun I saw featured on the program, however, was not true to the original nor was it one of these modern synthetic wonders.

The Winchester representative knew very well (and stated so) that the FN made firearm his company was marketing would not appeal to the purist. By ignoring the purists (and I would propose that such purists can be found at any age) out there, I am suggesting Winchester has made a mistake.

As for performance, based on my personal experience, I am firmly of the belief that the original design and old-fashioned materials are more than up to the task. Some years ago I took my "factory stock" pre-64 .243 Winchester Featherweight out for an unlimited rifle match (scope and sand bags allowed). With a 3x9 Leupold, this rifle cleaned the clocks of the so-called tactical rifles I was competing against. Jaws of the younger shooters dropped as I hit the x ring consistently at 600 yards. I took second place in that match. An older shooter won first place with a pre-64 Winchester in .30-06 (which wore an old Unertl target scope).

Newer is not always better---in spite of what the advertising might suggest.

Doug

Doug,
If it means anything, I still want to find a nice pre-64 in 264, but it's low on priorities and they keep going up. It's more about the nostalgia for me. My BOSS equipped USRAC gun puts 5 hunting bullets at hunting velocities under 3/4" all day and on occasion a group under 1/2" when I can do my job and the conditions are right. I've got a few other rifle that are very good to decent shooters, including a good 03A1 sporterized that hangs around 1 MOA pretty well, so I can get along until I guess I make that deal on a real pre-64.

As for the new Winchester company, if they invested big money, they will have had their marketing people dig up more facts on the market for bolt guns than we'll ever see. That won't make what they decide necessarily "the right move", but it makes it more likely.

BTW, I'm also a 1911 fan. I have a few variations laying around. I think the popularity of the design today thrives on the strong basic design characteristics and the adaptation of modifications; from investment cast parts to carbon fiber frames, stainless steels, etc. etc.. Few are faithful to the original 1911 model in one way or another. Newer is not always better, but change is not always bad. I know as I age, I do get more skeptical of change though. I guess it's because we see more things that don't necessarily get better with change.

I don't know all the changes they made to the M70, but I did hear the guy say the trigger and the safety. That wouldn't turn me away from one of these guns.