I measured an old Ithaca NID 10 gauge gun today, bores both were .763", chokes .030 and would you believe .056"? Talk about XXfull. I am impressed. Has any one ever patterned one of these? Any thoughts on them comparing with 3" Parker, LC Smith Long Range and Fox Super guns?
2 7/8's inch or 3 1/2" ?
Elmer Keith did extensive testing with both length Ten's from Ithaca in the new Super_X loads. He was in communication with Askins and other ballistic development folks, as well as the factory. The report that I remember was in Shotguns by Kieth, where the details may be found..
So far as the 2 7/8" Super Ten in comparing to 3" 12, Keith gave the Super Ten 2 7/8" a few more percentage points in patterning efficiency, but declared little field difference.
With the 3 1/2", he did some very good long range work, on those riverine corridor, flight paths where the birds essentially are flying a predictable course, at a regular speed, all season long. Imagine a invisibly-walled, tubular bird superhighway laid out as neatly as a modern freeway.
The distances and speeds and courses are very well known to the gunner and thus leads and allowances can be established neatly as tho the fowl were mechanical ones in a shooting gallery. For people unfamiliar with his Idaho venues, the distance of some shots just seemed like Western braggadacio.
The reports were judged by people unfamiliar with the conditions and shooting, much the same as folks who have never sat down with a good pistol and a couple of cases of ammo out in a Western, county-sized firing range with a mountain for a backstop couldn't conceive of a pistol as other than a short range instrument. In truth, it is NO trick for a novice to learn to lob heavy slugs onto boulders at hundreds of yards, when one can observe the heavy slug strike in the dust.
As to whether the other contemporary makers were able to 'choke' better for a particular load than Ithaca, perhaps some readers here with more familiarity in that literature may report in.
Forgot to mention the gun is original 2 7/8 inch
I had an NID Magnum-Ten and its bore diameters were .778" right and .777" left, with .043" right and .041" left. I never used the gun, as at 11 pounds 3.9 ounces it was too much for me. I still have an NID Super-Ten and its bores are .789" right and .790" left. I believe some previous owner opened the left barrel as it has only .027" choke while the right has .053". I've never patterned it so can't really say. My 1928-vintage, factory 3-inch chambered, Super-Fox is bored just as Askins describes in his 1929 book, Modern Shotguns and Loads. Back in my youth, when I would do things as painful as shooting and counting patterns, it would go 85% with 1 5/8 ounce loads of either #4s or #5s. 1 7/8 ounce loads blew the patterns all to he!!. The production card for my gun has the pattern counts on the back of the card showing it went 79% at the factory with the 1 3/8 ounce load of #4s. Truth be told, I've shot a lot more Ducks with its extra set of 28-inch barrels bored 1/4 and 3/4.
My Ideal 10ga has a .775 bore and is .40 and.45 XF/XF. My 10ga Pigeon is .775 and is .25 and .37 IM/F. The old time waterfowl hunters liked their tight chokes!
That is quite a variety of bore dia's. The ones I read were .763 and Mr Researcher says his largest is .790. My barrels are marked LLH or maybe LHH on the underside of the chambers. I don't remember exact and the gun is put away.I read some where that was a barrel maker in Europe that was used by many Amerivan gun mfr's. If any of you are shooting your 2 7.8 guns are you using RSt shells or rolling your own in brass or plastic?
Several here have sent e mails asking if the NID si for sale. I am not planning to sell it. Thanks anyway.
My AYA lightweight ten is choked .041 and .041. Last week, I shot a couple of patterns with WW 1 3/4 ounce steel #2s. At 45 yards, a woodcock couldn't have found a hole to fly through, so I shot some paper at 60 measured yards. Any goose would have had ten or more pellets in the body area at that range. The pattern was just lovely with some clumping but no empty areas. My paper wasn't big enough to tell how large the entire pattern was. Judging from the number of shot on the paper, the pattern couldn't have been very much larger than the area I could see. I was amazed at how well the load patterned. I have some buffered 2 1/4 ounce lead loads from the old days that I would like to try. I don't know what to expect, but high ninety percent range at 40 yards would not surprise me. My old 3 1/4" chambered Fox with chokes in the .040 range shot devastating patterns at 50 yards with my old lead #4 loads, much tighter than I expected. I never shot that gun at 60 yards but expect it would still throw killing patterns for mallards or pheasants. Sorry to say I sold that great gun to a friend who opened the chokes. My mistake. Some guys just can't stand to leave well enough alone.
Old Joe: I load my own 2 7/8" plastic, a 1 1/8oz load for targets and a 1 1/4oz Bismuth for ducks. I have shot the 1 1/8oz RST and they are very nice but very expensive. When you hit a target with that load in the tight choked gun it is like hitting them with a Tennis racket! Big fun. The 10ga 2 7/8" guns used to be a bargain, they seem to be rediscovered since Sherman Bell wrote his article in DGJ "The Forgotten 10's".
Old Joe: 30 yrs ago I purchased an NID just like yours .055 choke in the left barrel and .035 in the right barrel. The gun came off the Platt river in western Nebraska. The seller told me that the gun would just "ruin" a duck at 40 yards with the left barrel. He told the truth. I used this NID 2 7/8 Ithaca for Pheasants and wild chuker. I loaded 1 1/2 oz. lead fives and sevens (duplex) with card wads and Winchester ball powder. The gun only weighed 8 1/2 lbs. was a little quicker than its ten and half pound big brothers. I shot a lot of birds at the ranges that eightbore speaks of, some even futher. One day I traded the NID for a Parker. I do wish I had that Ithaca now, as I still hunt Wild Pheasants and chuker with the short 10's big brothers, and I'am 30 yrs older. Old Joe my gun shot duplex loads as good as any thing I ever owned. JOE: lOAD THAT GUN UP AND GO SHOOT IT I will bet you like it.
Oh yes::: Old Elmer told the story straight.
Found this ancient thread and thought I'd add a link to Askin's original comparison testing published in
Outdoor LifeSuper Fox patterns April 1922
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1922-04_49_4/page/234/mode/2up?view=theaterNovember 1923, “An American Super 12” The Super Fox boring & patterns
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1923-11_52_5/page/356/mode/2upDecember 1925 Comparative Patterns Super-Fox, Smith Long Range, Ithaca 10g
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1925-12_56_6/page/452/mode/2up?view=theater
I have a Big Ithaca 10 that someone had messed with before I acquired it. The bores were different sized. I had Briley bore match and then make screw in chokes that mirror as much as possible the original profile but with a start of the current bore diameter, about .800 if memory serves. I have used it mostly for sandhill crane shooting on the Texas rice prairies. The load is 1 7/8 oz.of buffered bismuth 2's. I have regularly killed the flying t'bones at 75yds or so.
At lot of gun at 11 pounds or so that needs a kneeling or standing position.
My 1931 vintage No. 2 Super-10 has bores of .789" right and .790" left, with .053" choke in the right barrel. While it is choke marked 4 & 4, some previous owner must have had the left barrel opened, as it has .027" choke. I owned a 1935 or later Field Grade Magnum-10 for 16 years and never used it, so it flowed down the river of commerce. My notes show it having bores of .778" right and .777" left, with chokes of .043" right and .041" left.
I bought the No. 2 Super-10 from Randy Shuman, and it has the original shipping box with the Ithaca label and the Railway Express COD shipping label showing the purchaser paid $30 down and the remaining $27.50 on delivery.
My 1938 NID 3.5" measures .750" in each barrel and each measures .038" of choke. Last time I patterned it over 40 years ago, It was 90% at 40 yards in a 30" circle with 2 1/8 oz of nickel plated BB's. Right barrel was 55% at 40 yards with a spreader load of 2.5 oz. of #3 chilled lead (St. Louis Threes). The loads were for spring gobblers. Gil