Hi, I'm new to the forum and to double guns although I've always loved them. I just got my first one night before last, a J.P. Sauer & Sohn 12X12X30.06 Drilling. Thought it would make a great river gun and especially a good turkey gun. Its choked full and half and is a 2 3/4 inch gun. Took it to pattern it yesterday and shot a 2 3/4 inch Remington #5 Turkey load. My God!!!! I had a 3 1/2 inch Benelli pump that didn't kick as bad. Is this normal?

European guns weren't made for such heavy loads as your turkey load, plus the gun is probably on the light side in weight. If you reload your own, make some up that are in the under 8,000 psi range and be kind to your gun and shoulder.

Probably you can find a recipe for 1-1/8oz of #5s at 1,150 or 1200 fps that would be effective and endurable. Other thing is that every gun I have patterned kicks ten times as much at the pattern board as it does when shot at game.

My opinion - the 1400 fps 1-5/8 oz turkey loads and the special turkey chokes are all marketing hype designed to increase the effectivenss of the factory sales department. I have jumped turkeys while out quail hunting and killed them with an 1-1/8 oz of #8s at 25 yards. I don't do it anymore but I have done it.

Best,

Mike

Makes a lot of sense guys. You're right about recoil on the bench vs. when shooting game. I usually not only don't feel the recoil, I never hear the gun go off. The '06 recoil wasn't as bad as the turkey load or so it seemed. I dread seeing a good buck in the river swamp and knowing I have to shoot buckshot! I'll look in to a better choice for turkeys.

I agree the weight/load ratio is probably off. I had a 16 ga. J. P. Sauer that weighed about 6.5 lb. and fit me well. I could shoot 1 oz. at 1200 fps all day. Put 1 1/8 oz. at 1300 in it and it hurt.

Take care,

Milton

hahahaha....All these new "turkey" loads are actually better at---"Increasing the effectiveness of the factory sales department"--- for ammo makers.

Indeed. Load your own or buy regular 1100-1200 fps ammo. No need for that extra charge to deliver the new benchline of 1400 or so fps. It is rather like with the more recent slugs for shotguns: If a hunter listens to all the hype you'd think you HAVE TO HAVE 2,000 or more fps or the slug will just darn bonce off any animals hide.
So, in closing: 1100 to 120 fps loads have worked for decades to harvest platters full of Turkeys... well that is up until 4-5 years ago when the new models of Turkeys had armor plated feathers and now.... well... you know.....

Remember this joke? Patient: Doctor it hurts when I do this. Doctor: Well don't do that!

You just played the joke on yourself. The faster and heavier the load the more recoil. Try 1 1/8oz loads at 1100 to 1200 fps for which the 12ga was intended. The birds will never know! (JDW the pressure has nothing to do with recoil!!)

Jerry, are you trying to tell me that a 8,000 psi and under load isn't going to be more gentle than a 10,000-12,000 psi on your shoulder and gun. Pressure might not have anything to do with recoil but the amount of powder certainly does to give you the reduced amount of velocity which equates to recoil

Jerry this sounds good. Off the top of your head, are there factory loads in turkey sized shot that duplicate those numbers or are they roll your own types? I have found some in the 1260 fps range but I'm not sure how that compares to what I was shooting yesterday. I'll have to wait till I get home to get the specs on those.

You're wrong a second time, JDW. Pressure has nothing to do with recoil, as Jerry stated. Now, if you're going to start talking about reduced velocity, you're on the right track. Also correct when you talk about fewer grains of powder. However, when you are achieving the SAME velocity with the same payload, but only different pressure levels, recoil will be the same, regardless of what the pressure is.

I don't want to steal the main thread from the original poster, but how was I wrong the second time?
"However, when you are achieving the SAME velocity with the same payload, but only different pressure levels, recoil will be the same, regardless of what the pressure is."
I don't know how you could acheive the same velocity with the same payload and only different pressure levels, one small change in componants and you change velocity and pressure. A half grain of powder will change both.
Isn't that the reason for low pressure low recoil loads and now Federal and Winchester have low recoil factory loads.
I quess maybe I should have given some more data of a low recoil (low pressure) reload in my original post to clarify it.
Sorry if I confused anyone, but I do know the difference.
Plus do you know of many high recoil loads under 8,000 psi in 12 ga.? I don't

I assume you are not making the mistake of shooting the gun based on the instructions in the owner's manual? Reason being that when translated to English from German, it is easy for the publisher to make a mistake with the German word for 'shoulder' as it is spelled 'groin'.

By being wrong the second time, I was poking a little fun at your slogan: "I thought I was wrong one time, but I was mistaken"

Q. "I don't know how you could acheive the same velocity with the same payload and only different pressure levels, one small change in componants and you change velocity and pressure."

A. Quite easily. You use powder with a different burning rate. There is some confusion here, but it's not in my house.

Smile, JDW

At a quick glance in a loading manual I find a load giving 1 1/8oz of shot 1310fps @ 8,500psi using 27grs powder & another load giving that same 1 1/8oz only 1145fps but @ 9,000 psi using 18grs of a much faster powder. Should be obvious to anyone the lower pressure load is going to "Kick" much more severe . With "No" pressure there would be no movement, thus no recoil. The recoil though is not relative to the pressure but to the movement. The heavier the weight moved and/or the faster it is moved the higher the recoil.

JDW I understand your thinking but as Jim and 2 Piper pointed out there are differences in powders. Peak pressures are what is stated in reloading data. The peak, which only lasts for very brief portion of the burn time, does not perform the most work to accelerate the load. It is the total sustained pressure which brings the load up to velocity. If you have a pressure vs time curve for a load from ignition to barrel clearance, the area under the curve represents the work performed. Peak pressures are just a brief spike early in the burn. So a load with a low peak but a longer sustained pressure can easily out perform a fast powder. A real example is that black powder loads which seldom get past 6000 psi peak in shotguns can duplicate smokeless powder load performance with peaks in the 11,500 psi range. Recoil is calculated off the velocity and weight of the material ejected from the barrel(shot, wad, powder residue, gases). Drop the weight and velocity greatly reduces recoil.

From the Hodgdon 2004 reloading manual [ I'm not going to quote all the info, it would take too long ]- " Unfortunately, too many shooters think that pressure has an effect on recoil. In truth, it doesn't. It is not included in the formula for calculating recoil as noted in our example." The only items used in their formula was the weight of shot,wad,powder,the gun and muzzle velocity- no where is psi mentioned. JDW, it looks like you are actually wrong one time. Sorry. Paul

As for the subject of recoil- 1oz of shot at 1200fps in a 12ga is all anyone needs to kill anything. And you won't feel the recoil. Paul

You may wish to check head space, because any excess will result in a significant increase in recoil.

I thought drillings tended to be on the chunky side - most also seem to have more drop at the comb, which could increase the felt recoil. But that's just an impression based on looking at 'em in shows and shops, so I could be way off on this.

http://www.zknives.com/bali/brcstgn.shtml

Note, as bladesmith points out, that pressure is not involved in the calculation of shotgun recoil.

Try the old standard Remington Heavy Game loads in 1 1/4 ounce of #5 or #6 and I think you'll feel a lot less recoil. I've shot hundreds of these, even at turkey, and I feel confident using them on everything short of elephant. Hopefully I'll shoot a couple on an upcoming turkey hunt in Virginia actually. They do the job and definitely don't beat you to death. My old #2 frame Parker loves them.

They're the high brass shells in the black case that used to be called "Duck and Pheasant" then "Heavy Game" and I believe are now called "Pheasant Load" and are cataloged under the code PL12

Destry

Thank you. Along with a Limbsaver recoil pad, I think the Heavy Game loads might do the trick.

yes I find all the different labels on the shotgun shells hilarious. They have a different box for almost every bird out there and of course if you shoot a turkey with a shotshell taken from a box marked "pheasant load", then, well, the turkey simply won't die. It can't. .... hahaha

I read somewhere else online that there is NOT an animal on the continent that can't be taken with NON-Magnum shells. Period. So avoid the punishment from that recoil and drop down to 1200 fps

You were all so kind with your responses and help, I wanted to give you an update. I cut the Uncle Mikes recoil pad off and installed a size medium "grind to fit" Limbsaver recoil pad. I have no clue how they are made or what makes them work better or worse than another pad, but work they do! This pad cut an easy 50% of the felt recoil from the turkey loads I was trying. I tried 6 of them and decided that the normal high brass heavy loads were just as effective at 40 yds and punished me and my drilling less. You guys were spot on about that, however; those hot turkey loads were now very manageble (if I did choose to shoot them) and the heavy hunting loads a breeze to shoot. AA skeet loads were no worse than in any other of my shotguns. I'm a happy camper now. Add in my "little skeeter 20ga. and .410 tubes, plus the .22lr insert and this a truly versatile gun. Thanks again for all the good advice.

Just put a Kickeez pad on it and forget about it. Save the original pad in case you want to put it back to original. JMO.

Learn to be a pro with turkey call and use std. load of #4-#6 of say Fiocchi 'Golden Pheasant' brand. These are primo nickel plated gems which is what you want.