I have been searching the internet for the past year looking for a Model 21 duck, trap. Basically what I want is a model 21 with 32" barrels, all I care is the bores and action is good. I want to have it restocked for me to make a side by side sporting clays gun with. I can see and hear you now grumbling. All the guns I have found for sale on-line are in really nice shape and going in the $6,000.00 plus price range. Are there any beaters out there that just need work? I am not opossed to buying one of these in the $6,000.00 plus range. I just was hoping to leave them for guys that want an original in good shape. What I am looking for can be a gun that needs to be reblued, restocked, and even some other not so costly repairs. Any help would be much appreciated.
Marine, I've gone the same route as you are considering, with a 21 Trap for serious sporting clays shooting. So I know how you feel looking for a reasonably priced 21, 32" or even 30". They are few and far between. But they are out there. One thought, by the time you find a cheaper one that may need mech work and restocking, you might be better served finding a decent one that is good to go and has stock dims close to what you need to shoot well. If the stock is short you can have a spacer and new pad installed for sporting, keep the original pad in case you want to sell the gun later on. Not all that much additional cost. 21 Trap guns are usually found with a wider range of stock dims than 21 Ducks which generally have a lower comb. Personally I wouldn't worry one wit about modifying an all original gun, once you buy it it's your gun to do with what you will. 21's aren't all that rare. Also it's more fun IMO to shoot often and well with the gun than to keep it in a safe because it's mainly a collector piece. Again, everyone, that is just my opinion.
Thank you for your contribution to our country and the people of Iraq. I agree 100% with your mantra. Silvers
Silvers I see you are also from the Northeast. I am from Connecticut. Anyways thanks for your info. I think the way its going to go down is I do buy a gun in the $6,000.00 or so price range and have the work I want done to it. If you don't mind me asking you? Who did your work for you?
I am having a stock made when I come home on vacation in sept. Its for an old Beretta Silver hawk made around 1969. I am going to have Wenig do that stock. I also was thinking for the 21 either Doug Turnbull or Wenig. I think I will have Turnbull do all the metalwork. I thought about Andy's Custom shop. However I e-mailed them sometime ago to have work done on a field grade 21 I have and never heard a word back. Wenig and Turnbull were very prompt to reply. However I am open to any suggestions.
marine - first, thanks for your service to our country! Much appreciated on my part.
IMO, the M-21 is one of the best places to start on a SXS target gun. You can have a new stock made for a M-21 if you wish to store the OE stock for possible future resale. I think you ill be better served by buying a good condition gun as this usually also indicates one not shot excessively. I found an aftermarket stock at a gunshow and fitted it to my Skeet gun. Dale Tate in Calf. bent and padded it out for me. Andy's is out of business - be thankful you didn't have work there (sad story - check threads).
I am in PA. My 21 Trap stock was almost perfect for me when I found it. The stock was a bit short at 14-1/4" with the red Win pad and I had a 1/2" spacer and new Kickeeze sporting pad fitted by a local guy, so now it's 14-3/4". That's really all I did to it. No restocking, no refinishing of wood or metal.
I don't know if you've had quality restocking done but you're probably looking at ~$3-4k depending on the wood selection and what you want done. That's a big chunk of money. Regarding a sporting gun, sooner or later you or someone will ding the stock when going in or out of the cage, and IMO it's not the best idea to put a ton of money into a really good stock that you have to baby. I understand Andy CS is out of biz but of course Wenig and Turnbull do very high quality work. I guess it depends what you want - if a 21 for serious sporting then I think you can do it without putting a ton of extra $ in the gun once you buy it. On the other hand if you want a show stopper when on the course, the sky is the limit when you get into custom stocks with really high grade wood. Silvers
Silvers,
You are very right about what you have said. That also explains why I never heard back from Andy's. As far as the stock goes I am not looking to impress other guys out there or one up anyone. I do love beautiful wood. I would be willing to spend a few grand to get it custom fitted to me and have a nice piece of wood. Doesn't have to be a show stopper. Yes I know about dinging a sporting clays gun. Depending on the stock that Wenigs builds for me this summer I will decide on for the 21. If the bluing is fine on the gun I buy I will leave it as is. I will get the forcing cones lenghted and chokes to .015 each barrel. Other then that I will be ready to shoot when I get back to the states.
Rocketman,
Thanks for your info. Yes i will keep the OEM stock I have room in the gun vault for it no problem. However I doubt I will sell it. But I never say never. So Andy's was that bad??????? I am glad then that I never had work done there for sure.
As for my service, I am out of the Corps now. I did my time from 1989 to 1995. I was in the first Gulf war and Somalia. I am here now as a DOD contractor fixing the Army's helicopters.
We see early non ejector, double trigger, Model 21s occasionally for around $3000. One just sold at a local show for less than $2500. Unfortunately, 32" barrels are hard to find on these early guns. The non ejector 21 is a very user friendly gun with no maintenence or reliability issues and works very easily. However, the absence of a single trigger may not be to your liking.
Hey Devil Dog,
I understand your desire for a Model 21 for targets. I wanted a Model 21 but very recently purchased a Model 23 Heavy Duck for waterfowling and target. Nope, it's not a Model 21 but with the modern steel barrels it will shoot steel shot and hopefully hold up for many, many thousands of target and heavy hunting rounds.
Someday I'll buy a Model 21...
Mark
USMC, ret.
MarkOue,
I have two model 23's one is a Heavy duck. From all I have read the model 21 is the strongest action ever built. I belive and I am NOT Qouting this that in the book Model 21 its states a crazy amount of proof rounds they put thru the 21. It was stopped if I remember correctly because it became to expensive to continue. it had already surpassed all other American made doubles of the time. Sorry i can not give you the exact. Its been a while since I have read the book. I also do not have it here in Iraq to look up. However I highly recommend every model 21 fan to buy it and read it. Great book loaded with info and great pictures too. what gave away I am a Devil Dog????? My lack of spelling and grammer?????? I could have been an officer. LOL
Rather then sink a bunch of money into a used gun, you might want to consider having Tony build you exactly what you want in a brand new Model 21.
Researcher,
I thought about that option. However I would like a real Winchester Model 21. No put down intended. Just like the old classic been around guns. Tony makes some beauties for sure. So are you in WA or AK? I have a place in Auke Bay AK.
marine - fix the helicopters good! I still appreciate what you are doing.
Experience seems to show that for all the strength of the action, the M-21 has the usual issues with barrel-rib separation, hinge pin/hook wear, trigger malfunctions, and spring issues. From a true testing stand-point, the W-W proof test was more of a stunt than a test. That said, it is still a very desirable gun.
A 30" or 32" gun is likely to be tightly choked. Before you cut the chokes out, I'd suggest you try using spreader loads when you need open choke effect. I am currently using a NID 4E 32" F-M in trap configuration for sporting clays to very good effect. I load 1 oz #8 in standard wads in black Remington hulls and same shot charge over X-post spreader wads in green Remington hulls. When I walk into the box, I have a choice of 4 chokes by sellecting among the two barrel chokes and the two loads. you can always have chokes reamed, but it is hard to put the back without tubing.
Rocketman,
I only know perfection in my job.
Last time I checked you can not shoot reloads in sporting clays tournaments. Have the rules change?
Anyways I shoot L.MOD .015 in each barrel. Both in my over and under and my side by side's. It works the best for me. It also takes the guessing out of the game. I shoot nothing but 7-1/2's that breaks clays all day long at any reasonable yardage, provided I do my part correctly.
Reloads are not permitted in NSCA tournaments. Many Trap 21's have really decent wood. Nice if you can find one that fits and has some character. Here's the one I wrote about earlier; I remembered I had a pic in my web album. Silvers
yes there are many out there with great wood. We'll see what I end up buying and the extent of work I have done. Either way when I return to the states I will be shooting a Model 21 as a sporting clays gun. Very nice wood on your gun.
marine - right on NSCA and loads. I shoot mostly Vintagers and reloads are allowed. sounds like you have it figured out - all you need is a gun. The good news is that there are a passable number of M-21's around at most any time. Good luck with your project.
NSCA rules specifically permit reloads except for FITASC.
I bought one with a JS Air Cushion stock,an aftermarket vent rib, and 32" barrels and Brileys for $3500. It was loose, off face, and doubled but after several hundred dollars worth of repairs it is now fun to shoot at sporting clays and five stand. I like the Air Cushion stock by the way. It wasn't at all punishing when the gun doubled.
Best,
Mike
David is correct. Although The NSCA permits reloads, the shoot management can prohibit their use in registered tournaments. Many of the larger shoots here in Zone 2 do not allow reloads. If you plan to shoot homemade spreader shells it would be prudent to check first. Silvers
It's been awhile since I've shot a lot in Zone 2, but when I shot NSCA, I don't remember ever trusting a factory shell. I've never been to any NSCA or NSSA shoot where ammunition was controlled by the number of times fired. I hear that reloads are even allowed at the Grand American now because of the backward attititude about ammunition purchases by non residents in Illinois.
It's been awhile since I've shot a lot of NSCA birds in Zone 2, but when I shot NSCA, I don't remember ever trusting a factory shell. I've never been to any NSCA or NSSA shoot where ammunition was controlled by the number of times fired. I hear that reloads are even allowed at the Grand American now because of the backward attititude about ammunition purchases by non residents in Illinois.
Marine:
Sorry to report that I sold your gun about 2 weeks ago which was a 32" Duck that sounds like it may have been exactly what you are after,oh well.In regards to Wenig restocking the gun for you I did a little checking on them and got a great referral from a gunsmith in whom I have a tremendous amount of faith.So based on his referral I contacted them and they are currently restocking a 21 for me.In the beginning I had to speak to them several times,they actually answer the phone there,they were very pleasant and helpful each and every time.I am not certain but I believe I should get this gun back in about 60 days or so as they said it would be 4 to 6 months.I will let you know how it looks when it arrives.By the way you can get them to retock a 21 including a BT forearm for a lot less than 3-4K.Be safe !!!
I shoot Game-Bore and am very happy with them. I think if I found another hobby (Reloading) I would have to give something else up. Can't do it. Besides Reloading is an indoor activity. Sorry I live for the outdoors.
Randy,
Yes Wenigs and I have corrisponded via e-mail. They are very prompt and helpful. I can't say the same for some other businesses I have tried to deal with while being over here. So right now Wenigs has 5 gold star rating from me. As of right now I am going there in Sept when I am back in the states on vacation. They are going to spend the day with me fitting the stock for a Beretta Silver Hawk that was made around 1969 I believe. I know what you all are saying now that guns only worth $400.00 and you are right. However my grandma gave me that gun, she is gone now and that gun will never leave my custody as long as I am alive.
Let me know if you come across another gun like the one you had. maybe we could make a deal happen.
Also I never said 3-4K, I said a few thousand. Yes indeed you can even still get it for less. I am going to look at their 50% to 100% special selection wood. Most likely end up with something around or between 50-75% special selection. I like wood and I am willing to pay a little more for a nice piece of lumber. Now I just have to select the right Model 21.
Quote of a few thou for a stock and bt fe sounds cheap better be sure wood is what you expect and stock will be replaced free if it cracks a year or so down the road. Also in writing, the trigger will work pefectly on your Model 21 re stock. That is a common problem.
Nitro Express,
What is a few to you? A few to me is more then a couple which is 2. I have been looking around for two years and seems everyone is in the $2500 for stock and $750 for forearm price range. I believe Wenigs reputation is very good from all I have read. I have talked to a few smiths that don't do woodwork and everyone of them said Wenig. I am sure there are others out there just as worthy. But for their deliever time, fitting, making, and finishing I am going with them on the first gun to be restocked the Beretta SilverHawk.
Can anyone tell me what a 32" model 21 would weigh?
I would think it would differ from gun to gun depending on barrel wall thickness, stock lenght and density of the wood, and maybe a few other factors. I want to say 8lbs but that is not reliable estamate. Another words I am not sure. But I can tell you that for a big guy like me they swing very sweet and smooth
A 32" Model 21 can be made to weigh from 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 pounds depending on the wood variety and configuration. Barrel wall thickness will not vary, even in the Magnum and Duck models. Unlike the Model 12 Duck, the Model 21 3" chamber barrels are the same as other models. A 32" Duck or Magnum model would be as good a choice as any other model for a base competition gun. You haven't told us yet whether you are looking for a vent rib gun or a matted rib gun.
I was very close to the weight. As for wall thickness it can and does very. I have seen some 21's backbored to .740 taking that much material off two barrels that are 32" long is going to lighten those barrels. Sorry i don't buy your wall thickness will not very. I have seen with my own eyes. As for the type of rib I want that would be Matted rib of course. I think a vent rib on a model 21 is ugly. Thats my opinion.
You guys might also want to check out Brent Umberger in Cambridge, Ohio. He is an excellent stock maker and gunsmith and one of his specialties is the 21. His 21s that I have seen him do are fabulous. His phone number is 1-800-490-5554. Good luck with your 21s.
Jimmy W thanks I will look into him.
Marine,
I too have strated to think about getting me a 21 to use for clays and waterfowl. I usually shoot 30" bbls, but have been thinking about a 32" Duck. I have never handled bbls that long, but I am very tall and confident that I could handle them. I need to find one and see how it handles. I would need it restocked as well to fit my longer LOP. CSMC has some nice ones to choose from and I might give them a call. I had them make me a Fox last year and they did an extraordinary job. I would like a Galazan 21, but spent most of my available funds on the Fox, so I may get an original 21.
Make a trip to CSMC, you will love it!
Sad to say Brent Umberger passed away a few years ago.
Sorry to hear that. I am thinking thats why I never found him in any of my searchs. I wish Shooting Sportsman would feature a gunsmith that specalizies in double guns in every issue. I was lucky to get to meet Mr. Trevllion (please forgive me if I spelled that wrong). He was a true gentleman and took a lot of time to talk to me about guns and gunsmithing. You could see and feel his love for double guns. I think men like that with those skills and knowledge should be featured in the magazine. Just my thoughts.
You might consider checking with Tom Smith about restocking 21's. He had done 2 21's for me and his work is the best.
Tom is located in Weston, Ohio.
Bill
ledbet,
I believe I did look into him. I could be mistaken as its been a while.
excuse me there Mr marine89 but I wonder when do yuou get time to fix helicopters? You are one of the most prolific writers on thiss site and at least one other one I know of, stuff like the Ruger Cup, Zone 7 shoot (you are from zone 1), Ithaca Classic doubles, model 21s', box birds, Andys shop, new Parker gun co, smith& parker challenge etc, etc. Can U tell us more about your work schedule??
I don't control when they come into phase. Depending on missions and weather which dictates flight hours which in return takes them into phase. Besides phase its replace a cam lock here or there, tape blades, change a window, ect. All easy stuff. Yes I am on shotgunsports, shooting sportsmen, and here. Is that a problem? Is there a law against posting on multiple sites? I am very aware of what zone I am in or should say would be in. I use to shoot with Todd he is a great guy. I can not congradulate him on his Master class 1 in FITASC at the Ruger Cup? Or Brandon for shooting well on Five Stand at that shoot? Please let me know what I am doing wrong.
Now would be a good time to see more pictures of Robert's M21!!!! Perfect thread for that or anyone's M21's!!!
All the best
Thanks Mike, I love the sight of a good Winchester in the morning!!!
Beautiful Winchester Mike but that's not the one you hunt with is it???
All the best
Thanks Marine - he loved to tell jokes and had a great sense of humor.
Treblig so far all I have done with it is shoot clays (and spend money getting it repaired).
I inherited some shells from my Dad and have been at a loss at what to do with them. I have been trying to talk my shooting student Joe Wood into going to South Texas this Fall for a WhiteWing hunt and thought I might take this 21. I inherited several boxes of two different loads: 1-1/2 oz of #6s and 1-7/8 ox of #6s (12 gauge). Now wouldn't that be the perfect matchup of shell, game, and gun? At least on the WhiteWing hunts I have been on they are very high passing shots 90% of the time.
Best,
Mike
I was gong to say something humorous, but now, after hearing about your Father's passing, the only thought I have is,
I'm sorry to hear about your Father.
All the best
He died several years ago - pain is gone and just fond memories. And I think those loads are pretty funny myself. He was definietely from the "more is better" school.
Best,
Mike
Can anyone tell me what a 32" model 21 would weigh?
32" 'Duck' weighs 7#'s 15.5oz.
32" VR 'Custom Built', Monte Carlo&cheeckpiece weighs 8#'s 2.9oz.
All measurements on calibrated digital scale.-Dick
