As we seem to be in Lefever mode perhaps someone can give me some info on a recent acquisition.My knowledge on Lefevers is pretty sad.The gun appears to be 100% original with most C.C. about 50-60% blue. 28" steel barrels that are full & full, 13 3/4" LOP over buttplate.1 1/2" x 2 5/8" drop @ comb/heel. Serial # 69208. Date of manufacture and a price check would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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It is a "DS Grade" which was an economy/basic grade, but a very good gun. Mechanically it is almost identical to the higher grades, except it lacks the cocking indicators. There were more DS grades made than any other.

It was probably manufactured about 1913, and the original price was around $40 - a hefty sum in those days.

20 gauge guns are usualy worth more than 12's.

Perhaps someone else may be better qualified to value your gun.

It is a very nice piece. I hope you will enjoy using it.

JERRY

Thanks for the info Jerry. The chambers appear to be about 2 1/2"
so I guess I'll have to get some English loads or do a little case trimming and reload.Do you know during what time period this style of gun was made?
Terry

Terry:

The DS appeared about 1899 in the Lefever offerings.

If the bores are good, $1500 to $1700.You don't see many in nice original condition.. MDC

You might want to go a little lighter than "English loads,"(some are punchy) ol'pip as the wood looks ragged right where the recoil counts.

Terry: A DS was my first Lefever, and the gun that convinced me Syracuse Lefevers are the most graceful (and rarest) of the major American doubles. Others here know a ton more than I do, but since you're new to Lefevers and curious about them, here's a couple of facts.

The two boxlike X's stamped in the left-hand side of the water table are the factory's designation for their lightest frame; certainly appropriate for a 20-gauge (maybe all DS 20s would have used this frame ... I'm not sure about that), but definitely considered a bonus on 16s and a very rare find on a 12.

Guns like yours would have been built for, at most, about 15 years, between the turn of the century and the start of the First World War, when Lefever production ended forever.

I think almost all Lefevers you'll find with the rounded, open pistol grip are DS grades. A capped pistol grip is much more common on all other grades.

DS stands for "Durston Special." Durston was the name of someone affiliated with the Lefever company, but I can't remember who. All other grades were ranked and designated by letters of the alphabet, from A to H.

Finally, some advice. Be kind to that 100-year-old lady. Her barrels and stock will serve you well if you use the kind of loads that were available when the gun was built. Yes, your new gun was built for 2.5-in. shells and that's what you should use, but even more important is to feed it low recoil loads designed for old guns like yours. RST and others can help you with that.

It's a nice gun. Enjoy it, and welcome to the Lefever club. You are obvious a discriminating shotgunner! TT

Terry:

Great find. Lefever sideplates in 20 ga. are scarce as hen's teeth in any grade. If you can find a 20, they are most often a DS grade. They are universally sought after by everyone, especially with 28" bbls. I looked for years to find one.

TT gave some great info. A few other notes: The Durston family took over Lefever Arms in 1901 when Uncle Dan departed, and introduced the DS and I grades shortly thereafter. All DS grades had fluid steel barrels.

I would suggest getting a copy of the book, "Uncle Dan Lefever, Master Gunmaker" by Bob Elliot. It's a great book and will add to your enjoyment and appreciation of the gun. According to the s/n chart your gun dates about 1912.

Congratulations!

Bill

TT,

You forgot the Optimus grade. My favorite, sure wish I could afford one.

I would like to posse a question to the experts and the general people on this site. If this were your gun and these were the only to options what would you do? I have fought this question over and over with myself. I am intrested to here what the majority thing.

1) Keep it as is and shoot it.

2) Have it professonally redone and shoot it.

A few things of note; According to Bob Elliots estimates of production by grade the H, G, F & E were all produced in larger quantities than the DS. He assigns first place to the G followed very closely by the E. From my limited experience I would tend to agree. The introduction of the H was made in I believe 1898, but was around 99 before many made it to the stores. I believe the DS followed a couple of years later around 1901, or the same year Uncle Dan left the Co. There has been some speculation that the "Rift" between Uncle Dan & the Durstons may have had some influence on the grade being called the DS. It is also noted that apparently identical guns were also sold as an "I" grade, or next step down from an H.
The "Major" mechanical difference between the DS & higher grade ones is the straight rib extension rather than the square shouldered "Doll's Head".
Very shortly after my interest in Lefevers had started I had opportunity to buy a very minty 20ga DS, but pased as it was priced twice as high as a 12ga FE I had just recently purchased (my first Lefever). I still don't have a 20ga & have regretted many times I did not buy that one, at the time I just didn't realize how few 20gas were out there in grades higher than the DS.

Marine:

I have one much like Terry's, but with less condition, poorer metal color and with forend wood that appeared to be dog-chewed. I chose to have it restored to new (not "upgraded). It's in my regular bird-hunting "rotation" of guns and gives me a lot of pleasure. It helped that I have a neighbor who is familiar with Lefevers (to say the least), superb at this sort of work and the gun had shootable dimensions "as is".

Terry's is in nicer shape. That would be a tougher call.

Bill

Well Marine, one can always get carried away and make something like this 28-gauge out of a 20-gauge DS-Grade --

WOW thats beautiful. See here in lies my battle. I believe that the gun was built to be used. Anything that old is going to need cosmitics sooner or later. Doing it right by professionals is only in my eyes preservation. Its still the same gun just the finish is refreshed. I toss and turn over this all the time. Thanks for sharing the beautiful pictures with us.

Where you from in AK? I have a place in Auke Bay out the road from Juneau.

Researcher:

That's a beautiful Lefever. Do you mind sharing who did your gunsmithing? The way you did the case with the trade label and so forth is really cool.

This is my restored DS 20...it's less ambitious than Researcher's 28 conversion but I enjoy it. This gun wasn't nearly as nice as Terry's to begin with.



Bill

Bill thats a fine gun as well. Who did the work on yours if I may ask?

My gun was a project of Bill Harvey the stock-maker. As I recall he said Kirk Merrington sleeved the barrels and Jacqueline Favre, who engraved some of the later Ithaca single-barrel traps, engraved it. We were sitting around late one afternoon having a glass of wine. I kept shouldering that gun, and pretty soon was writing a check.

My Wife is from Kodiak, and we spend a good deal of the summer up there. In fact she and my bird dog are already up there. I'll head up there after the Nimrod.

I have never been out to Kodiak. I would like to make it there one day. I go to Haines to bird hunt and waterfowl hunt. There is a great place called Mosquito Lake there. I have a friend that has a place there. Well thats a fine shotgun you have there. It sure is something to be proud of.

Buck Hamlin did every bit of it, wood and metal.

I feel bad because the case colors are starting to wear on the sharp corners, but I'd feel worse if I didn't get to hunt with it.

Bill

Very beautiful shotgun. I would have to hunt with it too.

DS grades were the least expensive and generally most used and abused grades except for possibly I grades. This specimen is quite nice and would be best left as is. I don't think a full restoration would enhance the value or pleasure of owning it. I have a DS 20 in somewhat lesser overall condition and it will pass from me to it's next owner with no more than a light cleaning and oiling and a little wax on the wood. Neither will I be touching up my increasing gray hair to appear as something I'm not. This is only my opinion and I would not fault anyone for restoring their rusty and dog-chewed gun.

Thank you all for your replys.After this crash course on Lefevers, I now know a 1000% more about them than before.I am going to leave the gun as is,it has a few very minor battle scars, but so do I, and I'm not 96 years old. Cheers.

I luv that "ball und pinion" hinge pin". Time to dust of that cowboy hat, put on them chaps, join SASS and do some shootin!

I would not mess with that gun much. The barrel flats show some case color left. The whole thing is "right." If the bores are good leave it alone, take care of it and hunt it gently.

To do a "redo" on that gun would be a disservice in my opinion. There are guns out there that need a redo. But the honest ones like this one are too few and far between. My .02. Jake

I have two Lefevers. Both were 100% refurbished by Buck Hamlin, one of the best SxS gunsmiths working today.

Unless an older classic American SxS shotgun is already in 80% condition, I prefer to have it returned to 100% condition. I like them to look like they did when they were new. And then I hunt with them, or shoot clays.

In addition to the LeFevers, I also own and shoot refurbished Foxes, Elsies, and a Remington 1900. To me it seems a way to properly honor the old gun by returning it to first class condition; just as one might restore a 1932 Packard.

I know that others hold a different view.

JERRY

So I think the majority opinion is that if its 80% or better leave it alone. If not then refinish it. I can buy into that. Thanks for all your opinions.

American collectors have long sold themselves on the original gun, they've made this bed years ago. At this point, I wouldn't do, a redo. Buy the most original gun you can and live with it.

I have several original Lefevers and plan to keep them that way. I restored on G grade that was in very poor condition. It was a lot of work and I farmed the checking, annealing, and case hardening out. It came out nice but I doubt if the value when up. I had a broken stock on an FE, and had Keith Kearcher restock it, I use the gun for bird hunting. My latest project is going on three and one half years, I had an G grade re-stocked by Doug Mann, engraved by Ken Hurst, case hardening by C.G.I. and barrels (black and white) by Dale Edmonds I have some pictures and will post them when the gun comes back.
I will be in Vancouver for the ABFM event next weekend at Van Dusen Park,(?) with the Morgans, stop by if you have time.
I could not see redoing an 80% gun but a 50%, if I had the time.
John

Pete

I've seen American shotguns in near-new original condition, but I've never seen an American gun that was restored to new condition.

I've seen lots of American guns that have been fully refinished and they all look that way - refinished. The color are usually off, the wood is not quite right, etc.

So I say don't do it. I don't like guns that look refinished.

(OR do it. That way my original guns will be more valuable.)

OWD

All good points and taken. Let me say one thing. I don't buy guns for value, I buy them to shoot and hunt with. So if I were to have it professionally refinished it wouldn't be to increase its value. I thank you all for your opinions, I agree with all of your opinions in one way or another.