I understand that my club is trying to have the Vintagers here at The Middletown Sportsmans Club this fall. This would be so cool. I hope everything works out. Will keep you posted.

We (Rocky Mountain Vintagers) had a shoot last weekend at the NRA Whittington Center, Raton New Mexico. It was a hoot! Anyone who has a chance to shoot there shoudnt miss it. Fabulous facility in all respects. I was amazed to find out it has nothing to do with the NRA except to carry the name. Open to the public, self funding, really kool place. If Joe Wood doesnt post some pics in a few days I will........

That would be great! Count me there, if it is there.

I don't think so guys. Maybe in the future. It's set for Pintail Point again, Sept 25-28 2008.

http://www.vintagers.org/

I hope it works out. They had tried it here in Houston for a few years and it did not work out. You would think that Houston, being the 4 th largest city in the US, it would work, but it did not. This last time no venders signed up. One facotr was it has been poorly handled and promoted in Houston. The one in Il. did not work out either. Hope your does.

John Boyd

Could it be that there just aren't enough Americans interested in swanning about in silly costumes, emulating toffs in the most pathetically pointless class and era in British history? It's as if the Vintagers saw or read "The Shooting Party" and totally missed the point.

Most generic vintage gun events are friendly shooting and gun trading events that don't require or exhibit much dressing for the period. I have attended the Vintage Cup, the biggest vintage gun event in the country, for many years, and have both shot and written checks while usually dressed in Dockers shorts and golf shirts and shod with Timberland work boots. No one seemed to object. True, some local Vintager chapters do prefer proper dress at some of their events, but they are probably in the minority especially during hot weather.

I think Maloney is jealous because back in the day, the Irish werent allowed to play with the "Toffs", too busy digging potatoes...eh? Its about the guns, jack, the guns...

I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a better facility than Pintail Point for such a venue as the Vintager's annual event, much less a section of the country as steeped in shotgunning tradition and lore as Maryland's Eastern Shore with all of the local amenities to be found in Easton and surrounding towns. If you're bringing your best Lady and she isn't into the "gun thing" as deeply as you are she will likely find other ladies of like mind with whom she can explore the antique shops and other fine shops and eateries. Just ask her to please leave enough in the joint account that you may purchase that fine old double you just can't live without.

Dean

They told our club that they would be interested in coming here but no date is set up yet. Probably some time in the fall. I will keep you posted. We are just hoping so far............

The Raton shoot was a pleasure and the kilt of Last Dollar never embarrased anyone.

They did allow the Irish there as my wife is 2nd generation.

John, it depends on your idea of success. We all had a good time and even my wife was interested in the damascus film. I think we only had 11 shooters.

There were only a couple of people dressed up in Victorian garb. I did not due to the fact that I had misplaced my Jodpurs and my wife will not allow me to wear flip flops with plus 4s.

I have corresponded with Mr. Wood and he has some good ideas for next year.

The Buckeye Chapter of the Vintagers is exploring options with the Middletown [Ohio] club. Any event will be open, and period dress is an option rather than a requirement.

Well Jack, I guess that you will have to tell us the point of "The Shooting Party" because many of us enjoyed the movie with-out looking down on the Edwardians.
David

I have not seen any official figures, but it certainly appeared to me last year at Pintail Point that we didn't have near the "walk-in" crowd that we had at Sandanona. It seems the Eastern Shore crowd comes to The Waterfowl Festival and its associated gun show but The Vintage Cup may be a bit pricey for their tastes.

"The Shooting Party" was quite clear in presenting the Edwardian upper class as frivolous and irrelevant, and their games as murderous and thoughtless. As Sir Randolph Nettleby (James Mason) observes, "If you take away the proper function of the aristocracy, there's nothing left for us but playing games too seriously."

But it's not surprising that some in this forum would be so entertained by the slaughter of poultry that they'd miss the underlying message of social decay.

I'd love to go to it but Pintal point is just too far from Memphis Tn.

Mr. Maloney:
If you would only exercise your alleged intelligence to simply look about you, you might recognize real "social decay" ... and on a scale that the Edwardians could never have comprehended. And if the slaughter of poultry is so offensive to you, I suggest you address Tyson Foods as the target for your next liberal assault. The UK grouse and pheasant populations seem to be holding their own.

Best, KS

"Slaughter of poultry?" Egad!

Indeed, KS, the present holds many parallels with the Edwardian world - including its inability or unwillingness to recognize its own decadence. Certainly wholesale slaughter as entertainment is a part of it. And that, in fact, was what author Isabel Colegate was pointing out when she wrote the book.

The UK pheasant populations are hardly "holding their own" - they are bred, fed and killed for private profit, just like Tyson's chickens. The main difference is that Tyson employs people to do the slaughtering, while those who kill UK pheasants generally pay for the privilege.

Funny how the word "liberal" is used as an epithet these days.

In reading this, one must of course take into account that Maloney is Irish. Nothing against the race, Mother and some of the Aunties actually preferred them as house staff. Had a cousin who married one, decent chap, in trade, soap I believe. Bit of an embarassment at table, oftimes. Drink got him, pity. People paying to shoot birds? I've heard of it, no estate or family money I suppose. Liberals do well here in Kansas, take a bit more fertilizer tho. Cheero!

Funny we don't recognize the difference. Decadence today reaches all economic groups. We are going down much faster than the Brits did. Yes, "liberal" is an epithet these days. What's your point? Personally, I like "TSP" for the gunning as well as for the message. Unfortunately, the hammerless guns were all boxlocks as I recall.

Tut tut - you missed the new pair of Purdeys wielded by Lord Gilbert the cuckold, who inadvertently killed a peasant while demonstrating his shooting prowess. Sir Randolph remonstrated with his most scathing comment: "You were not shooting like a gentleman, Gilbert."

To get back On Topic, these are the Edwardians the Vintagers choose to emulate.

As for your use of "liberal," it is not supported by anything I have said; my disdain for poultry shooting has nothing to do with politics. Like Lord Gilbert the cuckold, you're quick to pop off without knowing your target.

If Memphis is too far JoE yOu are just not a player. I'd rate it as one long days drive or two easy days -- I-40 to I-81 to I-66, around the DC beltway to U.S. 50. No sweat. I've come from Washington State in 2003, 2005, 2006, and 2007 and I'm planning on being there this year as well. I missed 2004 because I was going to closing on selling a house that Friday. I know others who have come from Washington, California, and Idaho as well.

When I go that far I want to kill something.

Hey Hal! I told Tim Stewart to get in touch with you about it. People are getting excited about it here in Middletown. So we are keeping our fingers crossed. I even took up skeet shooting this week after years of putting it off. So maybe I might not embarrass myself by the time something rolls around, if it does. I'll keep you posted from this end, as I am sure Tim will, too.

I looked up your gun club...nice looking place.

Why every year at The Vintage Cup I've killed quite a few bottles of Eightbore's and McCormack's fine reds!!

We American shooters must owe something to the Brits, otherwise we'd all be lunking around NIDs - or something French!

...or German or Italian or Spanish or Czech. American shooters mostly owed the Brits for providing nice bright red moving targets after Concord and Lexington. Anything else we might have owed the Brits was more than amply repaid in WWI and WWI.

J. F. Cooper, giving life to the English commoner's concern for his betters at the other end of the century from the Edwardian era:

"Our aristocratic columns, though they get a little cracked and defaced, are, after all, the pillars of the throne; and it does not become us to let vulgar eyes look too closely into their unsoundness." The Red Rover (1827)

Complicity in depravity not one's own is pretty common.

jack

JM - if "TSP" was totally definitive of Edwardian Brit culture, I'd accept your point. However, I find it to be a wee tad more complex than that. I do not find the top layer of that culture definitive of the whole.

Is your disdane for Edwardian Brit utter, or is it confined to a style of clothing? For example, how do you feel about Brit guns of that period? What is your take on wearing kilts?

Are you offended by the wearing of costumes at Cowboy Action Shooting? Vintage automobile club gatherings? Vintage baseball?

And the most offensive of traditional sporting clothing; Modern golf.

Ah, but that is precisely the "layer" of culture the Vintagers attempt to emulate!


My disdain is for a self-important class of irrelevant twits who ultimately stumbled off the pages of history in WW1, blindly leading a generation of unquestioning commoners to meaningless deaths. Who but a fool would emulate a fool?

The guns were made, not by 'gentlemen' in breeks, but by skilled workers in apron and overalls -- many of whom were lost at places like Ypres. The guns they made are very nice indeed.

The kilt, in the Highlands, is only worn by pipers, wedding parties, and tourists hoping to be mistaken for Highlanders. Beyond the Highlands, it is worn mostly by North Americans whose kiltless ancestors were booted out of the Highlands by kilt-wearing Anglo-Scot aristos who preferred, for various reasons, to live with sheep.

I dont know of any modern day Vintagers who are attempting to emulate any "layer of culture" We dont shoot peasants or irish. My Grandfather was at Ypres, with the Essex and Kent Scottish. He died there. He wore a kilt. You are a twit, Maloney.

I haven't noticed any Vintagers wearing working men's clothes. Take a good look at the "what to wear" page on their website, LD - it is quite clear about the "layer of culture" they're emulating.

Could it be that your grandfather fought with the Essex at Ypres? The Essex & Kent Scottish wasn't formed until 1954. The kilt-wearing Highlander regiments are among the world's best - my father fought alongside them at Meuse-Argonne - and no offense was intended. But regardless of your name-calling, what I said about the kilt in the Highlands today, and in the Scottish diaspora, is a fact.

Last Dollar,
Was that you being carried from station to station in the sedan chair?

http://www.vintagers.org/

Is that Sir Rabbit in those nickers...

The name of the regiment is now the Essex and Kent Scottish. It was formed as the Essex Scottish. I wear the kilt, proudly, because its part of my family heritage. I wore the kilt long before I knew an organization such as the vintagers even existed. My Paternal Grandfather lost his life at Ypres, in a Scottish regiment. My maternal Grandfather , Charles Wesly Ferguson, Retired of wounds, BrigGen Her majesties Canadian forces wore the kilt. My Dad ,My Uncles, Charles, Kenneth, Walter all served, all wore the kilt. My Uncle Gordon Gray, served with the Princess Pats, and wore the kilt. I make no apology for honoring and carrying on a family tradition. When I hear a windbag like this Maloney dishonoring same, I take offense.

Not a Vintager member, jOE. Nice old bowler, collarless shirt, galluses (suspenders to you moderns), and the hottest pair of pants I've ever lived in for five hours in 06 at Sandanonna. Shooting my G Lefever. Can't post as pix are on the wife's disc which is like saying they ain't anywhere that can be determined easily. If I were in the vicinity of the shooting party it would be as a beater altho I'd prefer the James Mason role. WWI has been mentionned. Full doughboy rig including gas mask would have been appropriate for the dustbowl at Pintail Pt. last yr.

jack

Got no problem with the clans either. Saw a picture recently of Last Dollar in his kiltie. Lookin good. I dinna ken why any Scot would wear other. Glengarry would have been nice also.

jack

Some men wear kilt because they have good looking legs. Some because they want to honor their families. Some wear kilts because they want others to think that they are Scottish. My family roots goes back to Scotland and is easily traced and confirmed, but death will take me before I wear a kilt. I do not have the legs for one and nothing looks worse than a fat, middle age man in a kilt. That is my two cents worth on the subject.

Tut tut, more name-calling, LD? You dishonor yourself, then.

I have said nothing to dishonor the kilt - only spoke the truth about who wears it in the Highlands today. If that truth offends, so be it; for all your family history, I probably know more about Highland ways than you do. The whole kilt/clan/tartan fetish is greatly exaggerated by the Scottish diaspora, like the romantic rubbish about Bonnie Prince Charlie - something, perhaps, to lend color to otherwise ordinary lives. Even the lowliest office clerk can pretend to be a lord as he struts about in his store-bought kilt with his sgian dubh and claymore (all quite possibly made in China).

It's all affectation after the sea change, jm, as it should be. Amnesia is not a bad thing when it scars over the wounds of oppression and starvation.

jack

Lest we forget, jack, lest we forget... Most of these clan-proud hyphenated Scots ignore the black history of the Clearances, when their ancestors were turfed out by their be-tartaned chieftains and kilted lairdies.

The only thing I object to is a man who walks in a kilt. If you ain't marching, dogtrotting, leaping from rock to rock or all-out running, I don't think you have proper respect for the Scots genius.

jack

Clearances, enclosure--how would we remember when we've already forgotten Charlie Keating?

jack

Junior won at Michigan Sunday, bout time.......

If you want a real laugh, check out this site for a House of Commons debate on out-sourcing the traditional kilt for the British Army's proud Highland regiments: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2006-03-27c.526.4

I wear vintage shooting attire when I go to vintage shooting events. Yet, I have no interest in emulating any "layer of culture." If I were to go to a Cowboy Action shoot, I'd wear their costume. But that would not mean I was emulating their layer of culture, only that I recognize a costume part for what it is. I see a lot of non-vintage attire shooting at the VC and have yet to hear the first complaint about it. I have seen a few costumes for which bib overhauls would have been an upgrade --- and no one complaining about them.

Note that the "commoners" of all combatant nations followed their own twits into that great meatgrinder. Europeans were rich enough to hold that sort of a war and bored/overpopulated enough (and that includes the commoners, too) to participate. Like a flood, once started, there is no way to stop it - it simply has to run its course.

So, JM, what about Cowboy Action shooters and their costumes.

Aw shucks, R-man, pr'tend cowboys are jes' pr'tend reg'lar folks...tho' I 'spect they ain't much admired by our Native American friends. Heck, I used ter dress up in cowboy duds myself, but I guv it up in 5th grade 'cuz chaps 'n spurs don't work so good with base-running.

Now yer talking....

I could wear my bibs...and Lowell could bring his farmers gun.

If it doesn't offend the ladies I'd need to drop one strap...the straps interfere with my gun mount.

Wonder what Dan Lefever would think about these Edwardians shooting his guns ?

Didn't we beat up on Jack over this 'bout this time last year? Old guys playing dress up is no problem; acting like they're something they're not is. Everybody seemed to be having great fun at The Southern, even with the heat.

I like this brash young Yank showing off his Baker to the fop



How about this fella's 'vintage attire' as model dress?

Why isn't that Destry H???

No, TR's hat is MUCH nicer and monumentally less odiferous

JimmyW-

We look forward to a shoot in Middletown, Ohio.

Costumes are optional.Side by sides of any make or vintage are required.

Need the host club to suggest some dates.

I would suggest a 50 target program and permit re-entry with a gun change. Awards on a Lewis Class basis.

No special memberships required to participate.

I wish I was a skinny as TR, I wouldn't sink as deep in the mud. I've got a great print of him on the wall that shows him coming up on a pack of dogs that are fighting a bear, rifle in hand, ready for action.

To the Preacher: You ain't never even seen my hat in person, let alone smelled it.


Destry

Word is olfactory awareness precedes visual confirmation of it's arrival

I’ve gone to several Vintagers events both in Northbrook, IL and in Simonton, TX. Dress-up is part of the fun. However, as a proud American I try to emulate what an American shooter would have worn at the turn of the 20th century. After researching numerous old photos, I finally settled on a black bowler, black suspenders, a baggy long sleeved white shirt, a baggy pair of dark Dockers and low-cut black boots. Several times I’ve taken black powder ammo to shoot at these events. It’s odd, but I’ve never seen anyone else shoot black powder. One day I may change the hat, the black wool bowler gets a bit hot if the weather goes over 75 degrees and there’s much sun.
Steve

Rockdoc:



Did you go to the last one in Houston, Did you notice that there were not vendors and the attendence was way down. Our side by side group have a strong presence there


john boyd

John, I was at the last Vintagers shoot and noticed that there were no vendors, a damn shame. I'm a new (this year) member of the Texas SXS Club, and went to the recent shoot at the 74 Ranch, it really was alot of fun. One thing I've noticed though, when I lived in the Chicago area and went to the Great Lakes SXS Association shoots, participants were encouraged to display their SXS's for the other members to view. I've noticed that that's not done at the TSXSC shoots, that too is a damn shame.
Steve

We need more Americans like that. Good on ya, mate!