A little over the top for me, but I must say how remarkable the work and the detail are on this double rifle. I guess money will fulfill any fantasy, even in engraving.
I like the top lever. Might be interesting on a double - other shooters would notice something was a tad different.
Duke
Check out the second pic. See the metal-to-metal fit where the trigger plate meets the action? Pretty nice gap, huh?
The engraving is stunning, though. Too bad about that mistake. For me, it wrecks the gun.
OWD
I certainly am not into that sort of gargoyles and such, but I sure have to admire the work!
What a masterpiece. That's a worthwhile theme, also. As far as the gap is concerned it's definitely caulkable, and I would not refuse it for such a flaw.
Philipe Grifnee apprenticed under Rene Delcour at the University of Leige. Rene apprenticed under Felix Funken at FN. Rene was Felix successor as Master Engraver at FN. Rene is the only person to ever hold a Doctorate of Engraving from the country of Belgium, a unique honorary degree that was bestowed on him for taking the gauntlet in hand to further the art thru his efforts at the university. I first met Philipe in 1976, when he was 24, if memory serves. He was traveling with Rene, still his student at the time, for a summer respite at a remote hideout and was already wonderfully skilled. He has only gotten better and his abilities are amazing over multiple types of execution. Rene had his students drawing scrolls for a couple of years for starters. It was his opinion that scrolls were the very hardest form of engraving to execute with perfection and if one could not draw one perfectly then how could anyone be expected to execute one in steel perfectly? I have judged much engraving on just that basis since. The Brits certainly have and have had it well in hand. Full coverage small scroll engraving is not only tedious, it requires the master's touch to be done correctly. Large scrolls fall within the realm of very few, as does properly executed border inlay, like a 'funeral model' might display because any error jumps out and is instantly magnified ten fold. I think that some of us who are not artists do not fully appreciate the effort and the hours that are dedicated to this particular form of art.
Here, we are most fortunate to have some of today's fine artisans willing to share their insights, passions and perspectives with us and even their methods of work. It makes this a very special place indeed. And IMHO, it also helps us to better appreciate and value their talent.
Thanks for the post, Brent. Now a question, is it 'normal' to have the first bbl trigger chequered and the second smooth? I'm not double rifle literate, and some of the time not very shotgun literate either.
Check out the second pic. See the metal-to-metal fit where the trigger plate meets the action? Pretty nice gap, huh?
On my screen it looks like a shadow along the edge of the wood where it was eased slightly to avoid a crisp edge that would be subject to minor chipping.
Nice Griffnee engraving Holland.... His stuff is fantastic but it might not be to everyone's taste.
Definately to my taste. Much more interesting than the ubiquitous dogs and birds.
The March/April 1996 SSM has a few more uniquely engraved H&H's.
I believe the dark line along the trigger plate is a dark part of the grain in the wood. I like the engraving- just not the topic. This does remind me of the Kreighof double rifles I have seen except that they have elephants or lions or some other type of animal engraved. Good luck.
The gap is at the top of the triggerplate. A half circle section not next to the wood. It is a large gap for a gun of this quality. Usually if you can see where the two pieces meet with this much engraving on a gun, the gap is huge. But the engraving is very well executed and is different enough from the run of the mill stuff that I find it intresting. Nice.
I'd think the checkered front and uncheckered rear trigger would be so that one allways knew what trigger they were on - so if for example one barrel was loaded with solids and the other soft they wouldn't get confused.
I love it, that work is unbelievable - with one caveat - I am not too keen on the dwarf !!!
Much work is now being executed by top "Liege" engravers on best London guns - a recent one I recently saw was undertaken by Edwardo Vos - I think it was on a Purdey.
Vos used to work and I believe still does work for the Browning FN CustomShop. Some of his sketches can be seen in the CustomShop display room - but are very very expensive, I was told £8k for one example - very deep relief scroll work somewhat similar to the example above - except without the dwarf!
Jonty
Jonty, are you afraid of the wee people?
Yes :-)
but to be honest, as far as engravings go, I love scrolls, floral work and animals, but people, dwarfs, gargoyles etc etc - they never look right to me, just butt ugly and deformed,
sorry ha ha!!!!!! :-)
jonty
TW,
Chequered front triggers are frequently seen on double rifles - especially if they recoil somewhat. It was common practice to fire the right barrel (front trigger) first so it was that trigger which was chequered to help prevent the finger slipping onto the rear trigger (on a gun that really is going to move around - like a 8 bore - I'd be inclined to pull the rear trigger first no matter how 'non-slip' the front one was).
It wasn’t done to differentiate one trigger/barrel from another – in any case triggers are so differently shaped that it would be difficult not to know which one you had your finger on!
Puts a whole new spin on the phrase "going medieval on you"!
Oh Man that definately rings my bell. The griffons and dragons I think are very appropriate on an English gun. Love the top lever.
Probably best if engravers are sent to bed at a regular time and their diets carefully supervised. This guy had way too much Cheetos and vidgames! Even if the execution isn't perfect, there's a lot of it which would make it quite satisfactory to a Phillistine such as myself. But my, my those deplorable gaps!LOL!
jack
Brent, that's some of the best photography I've ever seen. Just great. Congratulations. Now for a question; in photo #1, why are chisels fitted into the case and supplied? I'll probably feel dumber than a sack full of hammers when I get an answer, but they sure look like chisels to me.
Those are custom turn screws (screwdrivers in our speak). Probably $150 each! Nice work on this gun even if the engraving is a bit unusual, it is well executed.
Jim
Dave,
I not only didn't take the pictures, I don't own the gun. Don't I wish for either. I can't imagine both. And yes, those are certainly turnscrews perfectly sized for this particular gun. I do love the thing, and hate it at the same time.
Brent
What caliber is that gun?
Greg, I don't know. I tried to find out but no luck. It has a scope, so it is obviously a rifle, but other than that, I cannot say. Doesn't really seem massive enough for a classic like a .577, but very hard for me to guess.
I didn't read closely enough. It is a .375 H&H which would be a great caliber for such a gun. It reportedly sold at Drake.net recently. I'm just repeating stuff that I read on Accuratereloading.com
Such a gun made with hammers - now for that, I might mortgage my life. Not that it would be enough.
Brent
Drake had it:
http://www.drake.net/h26h375drI think it was arond $150,000.
For that money, gaps are not acceptable.
OWD
Obsessed, I think you are a bit obsessed with gaps - I seriously doubt they even exist. Certainly, those photos are proof.
Instant presto - it's gone...
Brent
I'm sure the guy who bought the rifle had his act together.
Somethings are just out of our depth, its not like buying a decent 1500.00 LC Smith field grade shooter!
Acck! It's still there and it looks like hell. It's too bad. I can't believe Holland would let something like that out of their shop (I'm serious). It's an insult to their tradition and it ruins an otherwise beautiful gun.
I've seen metal-to-metal mistakes like that on a number of recent Hollands, especially on their O/Us. A couple of Xmases ago I was in their NYC shop. They had a bunch of brand new Royal O/Us on the racks, all with horrible metal-to-metal fit. And these were $125,000+ guns. It was pretty pathetic.
A Best gun is the best for a reason - perfect metal-to-metal fit is one of them. Excellent engraving is one other.
OWD
I love it. You see something new everytime you look at it. That rifle is fit for slaying dragons! Stunning work.
Russell, Thanks for the insight on the triggers. tw
Personally I love the gun and the engraving.
Might the "gap" be the result of the metal contracting due to temperature changes. Perhaps it's intentional toallow for expansion?
Rob,
I'm pretty sure no thermal expansion/contraction gap would be necessary due to all of it being of the same material. Besides, steel expands/contracts at .00006"/inch per degree Farenheit if I got my decimal point in the right place. That gap looks close to notebook paper thickness wide. That's .002-.003". I have a LC that has a better lower tang fit in this area.
I don't have the budget for the case and fancy-dancy screwdrivers, let alone the gun, but I have to agree with JJ on the gap being a party foul on a gun like this. Besides, everyone knows H&H uses the latest CNC/DNC machinery and they should be able to cut matching parts much closer than this if the programmers and operators do their jobs.
Guys - that gap shouldn't be there, plain and simple. It's not built into the design. The gun is just poorly made.
Getting the fit on that piece right is very difficult. It takes a lot of training, time, and patience.
The engraving is brilliant, yes. But engraving is just one part of the gun.
That's all there is to it.
H&H's should know better.
OWD
owd,
I recall seeing the machining of this area on the RBL when I was at CSM last May. Neither of the two parts were touched by handfiles and they have a better fit than the gun shown, if I recall correctly.
While, I'm sure you're right about this area being difficult to fit by traditional hand work, proper CNC work should make this a piece of cake. Aren't they using CNC to finish fit parts? Or are they leaving metal fitting to the hand work?
The gap is just confirmation of what we all know deep down but are maybe too scared to admit. Older guns have a better fit, finish and attention to detail than most modern equivalents. Sure the engraving is nice, but that will be cold comfort if moisture gets into that gap and rusts the interior. Just to check I pulled my 1905 Holland. It’s the most basic model of Royal that was produced still the metal – metal fit is flawless and the wood to metal excellent. No Gaps. Maybe the best guns were made before WWI after all. Incidentally at least some of the some of the beasts depicted appear to be Wyverns.
Derek
Lovely artisanship. Such mastery of design and execution is a treasure. It's a joy just to study it. Thanks for the posting.
The more I look at it, the more it looks like a shadow line made for the mouth of the cat. JMO
Dave I dont' think we are looking in the same place. The gap starts at the head of the small imp and curves up and to the right. I see no cat around it at all.
"....if moisture gets into that gap and rusts the interior. "
I bet there's a much better than even chance this gun'll never see the hunting field, let alone any weather where moisture would be allowed to get on or in the gun.
I'm sort of sorry I posted this now. Apparently more people are obsessed with finding imaginary faults with spectacular firearms than they are with appreciating them. Some of you need glasses.
Brent
Oh, heck, Brent,
Don't let a little internecine discussion ruin y'r joy of sharing. At a Gilding Seminar, one of the leading lights from the Smithsonian's Conservation Analytical Labs pointed out that "we are like minded people, with an intense common interest, bitterly divided by minutiae."
As was pointed out recently by such luminaries as Lowell Glenthorne and that Minneapolis fella, this edition of the BBS is a haven of civility and good fellowship, compared to Cyber-Frontier, OK Corral atmosphere that once ruled. Many of the real scholars have returned, and there is a real sharing of knowledge. BTW, I count y'r engraving contribution as such.
Like rocks in a flowing river, with time, we get our rough edges smoothed down and can tumble along in relative peace. Altho, the sound of stones knocking together IS occasionaly heard in the current. ;~`)
OWD said:
For that money, gaps are not acceptable.
I rescind my previous wisecrack. OWD is correct, that void should not appear on any gun, my $1500 Beretta is perfect. Compounding the sin, after all the inspections it received, the engraver had to work around it for months. Shame on them and shame on me for letting the glitter distract me from the canvas it was applied to. Still love that engraving, thanks Brent, I will save these to my archive.
I personally don't see any gap. But anyways, I like the gun. I reminds me of the W.W. Greener ST. George guns. IM
First, I'd like to say hello and nice board.
I think the trigger guard has been removed at one time and not "seated" correctly upon reinstallation. Some of the leaves appear to not line up about the same amount as the gap.
BrentD,
Thanks for sharing the pictures.
Dogdigger
Dogdigger is correct. Another wasted rant on my part. I just received a letter from H&H's solicitors regarding libelous comments, that was fast!
Beautifull H%H possibly made to slew Dragons. Sorry, I don't see the cracks.
I would like to see some close up pictures of a "$1500 perfect Beretta".
L.F.
Of course! I knew they were turnscrews! [Slaps forehead with palm while grimacing] But would the owner of such a gun be disassembling it himself? Maybe to remove the locks, but otherwise, I'd think it would go back to H&H for anything else.
Look at the trigger plate, you know, in front of the trigger guard. Actually this "$1500 Beretta" cost "$1035" making it a "$1035 Beretta" so "here ya go". It won't slew dragons only roses.
http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf0096yy1.jpg
Trigger plate fit was the topic but if it's wood you need:
http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf0078bp6.jpg Alkanet coloring to boot.
Here are other pics:
There's the gap:
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And here's a Purdey DR that's done right:
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BTW: I didn't mean to hijack this thread and turn it into a rant against Hollands. The engraving on the gun is stunning and it is very well done.
But poor metal-to-metal fit really bugs me, especially on guns like this. The Brits will continue to see their gun businesses decline as long they allow sub-par work on their guns.
Thanks
OWD
That Beretta does nothing for me, but I think that is exactly how much you can get from Beretta for %1500 these days.
That Beretta does nothing for me, but I think that is exactly how much you can get from Beretta for %1500 these days.
That's okay but I think you mean those days. The gun is 40 years old.
Either way - it is an unremarkable action to my eyes. Not comparable with that H&H in a million years.
You seem to be more interested in denigrating than appreciating.
Enjoy your "cheap" Beretta.
Brent
Look ma no gaps
Looks like gaps to me.
L.F.
Gaps anyone?
JC(AL)
Brent, don't get your undies in a knot. The engraving you graciously shared with us is an outstanding work of art and I thank you for it.
The gap is another matter altogether
JC(AL)
There is no gap in the metalwork. What you are seeing is an illusion IMO. H&H would never release a firearm even a plain one with an obvious fault such as that.
Jim
JayCee, thanks for the panty advice. I'm pretty sure I'd be lost without ya.
Lowell, looks like lots of gaps to me. Especially on the outside curves.
Brent
Dear OWD. Thank you for pointing out the gap. It is a small thing, but on a premium gun, It should not exist. Some may call it nitpicking, but if you can afford a 100,000 gun, you can nitpick. One only buys a BEST GUN because it is the best that can be made. I have heard of millionaires refusing shipment of their luxury yachts because the underside of tables were left bare and not sanded and finished. If you are grossly overpaying for a product, then it better be perfect. If a gun company is going to charge a king's ransom for a gun, then they themselves have set the bar exceedingly high and invite such scrutiniy. This still does not change the fact that the gun is drop dead gorgeous! Do you think the caliber is suitable for dragons? I am assuming this is its purpose, since engraving is ment to signify the game the gun will take. -Sage Grouse, IM
There is no gap in the metalwork. What you are seeing is an illusion IMO. H&H would never release a firearm even a plain one with an obvious fault such as that.
Jim
I agree 100 %.
L.F.
JayCee, thanks for the panty advice. I'm pretty sure I'd be lost without ya.
Lowell, looks like lots of gaps to me. Especially on the outside curves.
Brent
Not gaps on the prized Beesly.
From the looks of the engraving on the Purdy I would guess the pattern was laid out to hide any visible seams. Possibly the Gargoles and Dragon pattern on the H & H made it impossible to hide the seams...for lack of a better word.
I suspect you guys are seeing a visible "seam" like on the Beesley not a gap.
L.F.
The quality of the workmanship is undeniably spectacular but the design is not to my taste. Call me a conservative but I like the more traditional design patterns. A very personal matter I realize but just a bit over the top for me.
Gap is the second name for the H&H today. I saw the same and the gaps between lock plates and wood at Moscow show last year.
Shame on you! - I said to H&H representative and he's become red like alkanet root overoiled K-80 stock!
What about traditional design pattern, I saw allmost the same engraving motive with wood monsters, but plain on 1906 H&H Royal.
I do not believe there is a gap. As dogdigger has said perhaps the plate has been reinstalled improperly or we are seeing the line where the plate and action meet at an odd angle.
Re the subject matter: This is Grifnee's rendition of a earlier Kell design of mythical monsters and serpants perhaps at the request of the Nizam's. It is an absolutely gorgeous gun!
Geno, you crack me up. This proves you read all of the alkanet root pages.
And Brent, I believe the gun is a true work of art. I have no idea of what level of quality is demanded of a gun of this cost (which I suspect is possibly twice the $100k mentioned by some). It's truely a beauty. The engraving is really impressive, although the subject of the engraving is not my cup of java.
As for Lowell's Beesley, it looks like it's been fine wirewheeled to me, while apart, causing the edges to be rolled on the parts and the screw looks buggered and fixed. ...Or maybe not. Probably just a build up of over-waxing.
Its like art, we are all critics, and on-lookers.
I'd wager none of us could play in this league.
Gaps or no gaps, the guy who bought this gun is a player.
Bet he knows what he's goin'.
Btw Chuck, lots of pictures from your work bench over the years, now lets see a real close-up of one of your prized guns, eh.
I've nothing to hide, its just a gun.
I know for a fact this one was wire wheeled and then chromed. It looks suspiciously like the Beesley:
JC(AL)
There is definitely a gap.
Beats the Hell outta poly-ticks.
Ouch! Now Lowell, you've dished out some rock soup on many an occasion, I figured you to be covered in rawhide and able to spoon up some with the best?
When I get a "prized gun" I'll get some pics of it. Right now, I'm a clunker collector. The RBL I've ordered may end up my best gun, if it ever comes. Maybe a Win 21 small gauge someday. My K80 is down the road.
Here's a pic of couple clunkers of mine.
Chuck, no gaps are discernible.
JC(AL)
Is that pattern called "Holland & Holland model 666?
It is not my cup of tea but I can see the art in it!
Franchi
Not in the same league as the gargoyles.
L.F.
Chuck, can't find fault with these nice original high conditioned guns. You've an eye for 'em - sir!
to say hello and nice board.
I think the trigger guard has been removed at one time and not "seated" correctly upon reinstallation. Some of the leaves appear to not line up about the same amount as the gap.
I also think that dogdigger has it right. Besides some of the edges of the leaves not lining up, notice the bottom of the knee of the figure at 9 o'clock on the trigger plate. There's an obvious misalignment between the two pieces. The plate needs to be seated forward enough to close the gap and the edges will align.
This H&H is an example of Grifnee's interpretation of a style that has been around since classical Greece. If one is to be critical of art, one should know the context, or "structure" in which the art can be discussed. The piece also looks as if may not be in completeley original factory condition, showing some wear from the trigger plate being manhandled, causing the "gap". I am posting a phto of some Philippo Negroli work from 1533.
And this is from a Negroli Burgonet, 1539.
And this is a Purdey, 1926.
My point being, as that as a work of Art, the Holland in this thread is a very nicely done and well executed piece when viewed in the structure of its style. Of course everyone is entitled to their own likes, or dislikes, but it can be a good thing to appreciate it in context of its structure, unless one is blessed with the good fortune to be able to see all the world through the eyes of a child.
Barry,
'sounds like wine...the more you know about it, the more you can appreciate the good stuff. Unfortunately, the not so good stuff doesn't appeal as much as you get more sophisticated.
I tried looking at the Berretas through the eYes of a child and I still can't appreaciate them.
L.F.
One of most interesting aspects of the artisinal crafts revival in our 'New Victorian' era, has been a steady rise in the quality of contemporary work.
I first noticed it in the recreation of American longrifles when John Bivins, Monte Mandarino, Wallace Gusler and others of similar skill began to do work equal to the crafts of the Renaissance. Mannerist styles, Grotesques, Baroque and Rococco scrolls, and lush acanthus leaves adorned recreations of great museum quality historic arms.
The scholars and engravers heregathered will find the above paragraph to be the barest inadequate sketch of this revival, but Gifnee's interpretation of the historical artistic precedents speaks for its ownse'f, brudda.
We live in fortunate days, indeed, when such work and scholarshipis readily available at the click of a key. Mr. Hand's photo collection of original work is worth a book, for the edifcation of those of us not fortunate enuff to have studied these masterpieces.
The was a small exhibition within the past few years, called "Three Hundred Years of Gunmaking", or close to that. The catalogs are unobtanium, but well worth the cost for comparison between the modern masters and their predecessors.
Keeps those good pics a rollin' in, cowboys.
Here is an Harry Kell c 1940,upcoming Shooting Sportsman Article by Victor Ventors/Trevallion. The Fred Scales'Mystery Gun'.
Here is an Harry Kell c 1940,upcoming Shooting Sportsman Article by Victor Ventors/Trevallion. The Fred Scales'Mystery Gun'.
Here is an Harry Kell c 1940,upcoming Shooting Sportsman Article by Victor Ventors/Trevallion. The Fred Scales'Mystery Gun'.
JohnM,
good comments, and the book is called "Three Centuries of Tradition, the renaissance of custom sporting arms in america", and I have two copies in the original shrink wrap available.
Here is an Harry Kell c 1940,upcoming Shooting Sportsman Article by Victor Ventors/Trevallion. The Fred Scales'Mystery Gun'.
Chuck, Many thanks for the'Help'....This is my 1st attempt putting a photo on D.G shop.I've got Barry L.H. in my rt.ear,from Montana,& Richard(gun-vault.com)in myleft ear! Thats where I've taken the Photo from....Man....If I cant 'Smoke Black It,& Cut It With a Wood Chisel',I;m lost!!!!CC/dt
Barry,
One copy is hereby sold!!!
Been looking for one since I took a carving course from Jim Chambers and visited the exhibit in Indiana. That Gusler wire inlay on the stock was pretty fascinating. spent about an hour just standing there,trying to 'figure' it.
E-me, pliz and money will fly y'r way.
John
Sorry but I couldn't resist. Here is a sampling of gaps I did not get:
Apparently you need to render an arm and a leg (and one eye; not to mention parts more painful) to get them.
JC(AL)
I guess it all depends on what you call a gap. I see gaps, especially on the left (Merkel?) and the center. The right action looks to be well disguised perhaps.
But had you posted these in another thread - I'd never have noticed. They are not important.
I like the shap of the center gun. What is it?
Brent
Brent, the left gun is a Simson and yes it does show gaps in the picture that are a lot less visible in the flesh (I may be needing new glasses). The AyA on the right is as it looks, no disguise. The gun you liked is the Beretta S3EL engraved by Giuseppe Bregoli.
You are absolutely right that the gaps are really not important and my post was intended as a light banter more than anything. I am very happy with my doubles and am not looking at their minor flaws but at their overall good looks.
I never forget a test that was done in a Dale Carnegie course: a large white sheet with a small black dot in the middle was placed in front of the audience and they were asked what they saw; everybody saw the black dot, no one saw a white sheet with a small black spot. As someone said above, human nature.
JC(AL)
I've always had a leaning towards the true gamegun - and never the letting the engraver get into the way.
Some guns are popart-tarts, and some for the moors.
Lowell, and some are very nicely engraved guns for the moors!
I suppose you wouldn't even imagine going to the moors in a minty
Range Rover.
JC(AL) :-)
One more English modern made wonder.
Take a look at lock, proud metal over receiver metal.
Wrong stocking work. Two locks plates tighten to close two each other and plates bended at its narrow places.
[img]
http://www.sitemason.com/gallery/hoHg2Y?id=15163&filter_filename=vms102[/img]
I would go to the moors in any Range Rover, minty or not - just not a Fiat or Citroen.
Just doesn't seem right!
I found this gun an outstanding work of art. However, I doubt it would be my first choice if I could afford it. Heck, I can barely afford the RBL! However, my eyes see a gap. Could be shadows from the photography, but it sure looks like a gap to me. I guess in my poor mind this isn't really a "best" Holland and Holland? I do love the engraving skill, though! Thanks for posting it!
