This is HIS EMAIL to me he did NOTHING BUT LIE.

Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008 11:38 AM
From: JIM & ANN LEGG <jlegg@infowest.com>
To: finnfire22@adelphia.net
Subject: Re: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 106621544
Size: 7 KB


Hi John,
I enjoyed talking with you.
My contact info is:
James L. Legg
1545 S. Ashcreek Dr.
Toquerville, UT 84774
(435)635-8330
Hope we can get together.
Just to confirm our conversation, I will take $1350 for the Uggie .410. That will include shipping and insurance to your FFL. 3 day inspection period will apply. Shipping both ways would be at your expense, if returned.
Thank you,
jl
I called him 45 mins AFTER gun show up IT WAS NO GOOD for me and he sad TOO BAD your NOT sending it back.he is a LIAR and a THIEF.everone one here should RUN FROM HIM his word is NOO good! thanks john baer ps i have 180 feedbacks on ebay (22eley) all + A1 i never seen a CROOK like this JAMES LEGG guy

Eley22,
I know the difference between an uncompromising tough old dude and a lying crook. I bet most here do too. You're urinating up a rope.

I HAVE BOUGHT GUNS FROM JIM AND NOT HAD A PROBLEM. IS IT JUST ME ?? THANKS, FRANK

First, congratulations on your first post on this, the best double gun forum on the internet. I've been around this board for about eight years and Jim Legg has been one of the mainstays since before I arrived. I've heard infrequent critisisms of Jim, primarily of his belief WD-40 is not harmfull to a gun. Pretty heady stuff, no? Other than his dastardly comments in favor of WD-40, he's proven repeatedly his knowledge of double guns and shared this knowledge freely. He's one of those I respect and would enjoy meeting.

One thing I've learned from reading these boards is when someone shows up and attempts to destroy a man's reputation, especially on his first post, there usually is no credibility to the claims of "...he done me wrong!"

I'll be waiting for Jim's response. While you're waiting for the same, why don't you find a fifth grader to teach you how to construct and punctuate a sentence? It doesn't help your case if the reader must go over your post several times to try and understand just what it is you're upset about.

This should be fun. And here I thought the long hot Summer might be over...Geo

The way I soak it up is Jim agreed to 3 day inspection but didn’t honor his words. I only read it once, so I may be wrong.

I have found Mr. Legg to be of strong conviction, differing sometimes from my opinions on certain matters, and generally a stubborn old fart, much like myself. I have absolutely NOT found a dishonest thread in him, however. Liar, thief, crook, absolutely not. There are two sides to every story, I am sure "The Rest of the Story" will be forthcoming.

I find some ambiguity in the three day inspection period policy. Some mean it as "If you don't like the gun, return it in three days." and some mean "If the gun is not as I described it you have three days to return it."

It occurs to me that this could be one of those situations.

Best,

Mike

"It was no good for me" does that mean it wasn't as described or that you just didn't like it?

Thank you all for the kind words.I hesitate to even dignify John's rant with a response but I will, anyway. The gun was described in full detail. It was exactly AS described. We talked on the phone several times and I sent pictures of the gun. It was correctly described as having 26" barrels. His "reason" for wanting to return was that he didn't like the 26" barrels. If there had been some surprise, some deception or flaw that was not disclosed, I would have accepted a return. I didn't pack it up and send it across the country so he could see what 26" barrels looked like. I'm not Costco. If a person does not know what 26" barrels look like, he probably should do all of his shopping at a gun store, preferably accompanied by an adult.

BTW, I did not say "too bad". I said "I would not accept a return because you don't like the 26" barrels. They didn't shrink in shipping".

Welcome to the forum, John.

22eley: Asking anyone here to make a character judgment based on hearsay is inappropriate. So is name-calling. That isn't what this forum is for.

Work it out between you or get yourself a hungry lawyer.

For whatever it's worth a 3 day inspection is to allow the purchaser to discover if there are any unreported problems with the firearm. For example: If a double is described as being in excellent operating condition and is discovered to be off face it should be able to be returned no questions asked.
If the seller states the gun can be returned in 3 days for any reason whatsoever then "IT WAS NO GOOD FOR ME" is acceptable.
I think Jim is indicating that he gave a 3 day defect inspection and since there is no defect in the gun then he is within his rights to either not take it back or charge a "restocking fee"for his time and effort.
Jim

I just visited GB and the auction in question. Looks like Mr. Legg has an A+10 rating. As a matter of fact, the last poster to give him positive rating said, "No problem with seller. Gun was refunded due to a description error and a refund was issued."

22eley, if there was no error in description, and apparently there's not, why bash the guy, especially on your first post? It looks like everything is described and all the measurements are there for anyone who is the least bit knowlegeable in the handling of a doublegun. JL has better than 4800 posts here. I'd buy from him anyday.

I know nothing of this 22eley guy, but I've known "dangerous Jim" for years now and know that he's not any of the things that he's being called here. I think, like so often, there is a misunderstanding of what each party expected of the other. Hopefully, they'll work it out.

A 3 day inspection is a 3 day inspection.

Jim Legg turned me into a newt!

In my opinion...According to the email you should be out some shipping...without the any hard feelings.

Looks like he just force feed John an Uggie .410....

I bought a Lefever from Jim and am very happy with the gun. Hope a mutually-acceptable resolution can be reached (elsewhere).

jack

What if you hadn't been ?

Not a whiner, Joe and maybe it takes me a few days, months, yrs, to find out where the other guy "trimmed". By that time (if it arrives), it's too late for the People's Court and I try to remember that none of us is all-knowing and/or all-disclosing (self-interest being what it is). Course I ain't turned out all my pockets for a Purdy yet either so maybe the ones I ate didn't give me all that much indigestion.

jack

I looked on GB and at the auction - is a 3 day inspection period a mandatory GB policy? I couldn't find it.

Why would that matter?

Rabbit I made money on my Purdey..

I've sent back a few guns. Some because there was just something about them I just didn't like I never had anyone refuse to take one back.

I've had to eat shipping costs before....even when the seller didn't have an accurate description.

With a 3 day inspection does the buyer need to give a reason ?

OK JOe, there's a feller in Vermont wot I would like to wrap a non-prefix Ruger 1 around his scrawny neck. I did return a Ruger Old Army. Seller was a gentleman but the return shipping and the extra FFL fee for the next one hurt. I believe A-Mike is correct that a bit of elaboration on exactly what "right of return" is offered is always in order. I ain't taking back a shotgun because it don't fit or the buyer takes exception to it's "karma".

jack

OK, I didn't have the receiver fee on either of the Old Armies but the aggro and the shipping still hurt.

Every thing I have recived was better than described.If you don't like 26" barrels don't buy a gun with them. quick fix is to have extended choke tubes installed but then again you might want to send the job back cause you don't like 27" barrels.

I believe this is the first time I've ever agreed with joe.
Didn't see any caveat in the three day clause.
I've sent guns back and had them sent back, it's no fun but this is the only way honorable long distance transaction can thrive.
I'd be pissed too.

When I sell a gun, the buyer is always welcome to send them back for any reason. And for more than 3 days too.

Never had one returned either.

Brent

no, a 3 day inspection period is not mandatory. there's a pull-down list ranging from "as is" to i don't even know what. i always set mine at 3 days w/o any caveats and figure anything beyond that prospective buyers can negotiate ahead of time.

inspection periods are a nebulous, dicey thing and need to be clearly understood by both parties up front under what circumstances things can be returned. personally, on a long distance gun buy i want the option of returning something simply because i don't like it and thus consider things i sell the same way. so far i've only had 2 items out of almost 900 returned on ebay and i refunded the shipping on those just because of the slightest possiblity of an error.

i figure if a buyer is willing to take the risk on shipping on a long-distance sight unseen buy (and let's face it, no amount of photo's render this sight unseen) the least i can do is take it back if, once he sees and handles it, he just flat doesn't like it.

but again, this all needs to be very precisely agreed upon ahead of time.

roger

as an aside, i've found gunbroker buyers very disappointing. ebayers, i run about 1 or 2 at the most out of every 100 i wish had never had anything to do with. gunbroker it runs more like one out of 3. slow payment, lousy communication, won't abide by terms of the add, try to dictate their own conditions, no feedback. several times i've had to call the receiving dealer just to see if the buyer ever even picked the gun up.

I like Jim, don't know him personally but he did email something to me once. I don't remember what it was but he took the time to do so. Plus theres always two sides to every story!

I once sold a nice little American classic 20ga. that had a bulge prolly 10" from muzzle. So the guy calls me up and said he would like to return it, and i says ok why? He said it has a bulge, i said you knew that. He said yes but, i didn't think it was that big?!!! The bulge was very small and he agreed with me that it possibly could be improved upon. None the less we compromised on a new price. Go figure!

Most of my horror stories have been with so-called reputable double gun dealers....

My opinion on three day inspection is that the gun should be returnable for any reason. I would never buy a gun on this site or GB or any other that doesn't allow me to decide if I want to keep the gun or return it. However this should be clearly understood by both the buyer and seller.

I've always thought that a return "just because I don't like it" needs to be agreed on ahead of time, and specifically. Other than that an inspection period is just to be sure it is in the condition it was described.
I also don't put much faith at all in a first poster that comes on here and scalds a very reputable member. This should have been handled somewheres else in my opinion.

Maybe Jim could get Dave to put up a pOle...

I think 22eley got the 26" 410 shaft so to speak. A person that has sold the gun should honor the 3 day return policy, period. The old WHAT ARE YOU RETURNING THIS GUN FOR YOU SOB, is just not right. But some guys try to intimidate other guys with that crap. And it seems that might be the case here. If 22eley doesn't like the barrels for any reason even because they remind him of his mother in law, that should be a good enough reason.

If someone asks why are you returning the gun, just tell them, that I just don't like it. Like this case you give Legg the real reason and he takes the "that reason does not count under my return policy" path. Jim, ya, it is a pain in the hind side to ship back and forth, but that's business.

Here's the item in question....I don't see a buyer listed ?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=106621544

I do not have a dog and this fight and should refrain from commenting, but....buying a gun is a personal thing, especially a double. I am sure most of you feel this way or you would not be on this site. (I checked, I preceed Mr. Jim but have not made near as many posts.) PERSONALLY, when I buy a gun based on photos or ANYONE's description if I do not like it, for WHATEVER reason, I expect to be able to return it. (And I have done so several times.) It has cost me shipping both ways but so far all transactions have gone well. I recently sold a Model 21 via this board and actually met the man in Atlanta and gave it to him in person. I told him he STILL had three days to shoot it, inspect it, have someone else inspect it and he could return it for full refund, no questions asked. As Mr. Bill would say, all good.

I've been shopping in all the wrong places but I've got Brent and Tyler at the top of my short list now!

jack

I side with the fellow who wants to return the gun for any reason W/I the 3 day notice period. Seller is playing "gots-yah" here is is not complying with spirit of 3 policy and he knows it. I will never deal with him.

joe, the initial post indicates they agreed upon a price with shipping that was below the auction price. i'd assume the sale was made w/o someone actually clicking a button on gunbroker (and i'm not in any way implying anything which could be construed as in any way attempting to cheat gunbroker out of their fees. things happen outside auctions all the time - nothing wrong with that). the fact that the sale took place is not even in dispute. jim's already stated as much.

one thing that does puzzle me tho is how this buyer determined that the seller was a member on this board that quickly, a matter of days. you don't just stumble across that.

roger

I'm sure there are more readers than posters...Mr Legg is kinda hard to miss at times.

I swear some of you boys having been traveling first class with your silver spoon in matched luggage and apparently getting your due and then some. Maybe I'm walking in the wrong part of town as I haven't seen all that many sellers who specify, honour, or grant by negotiation 3 or 5-day return on whim of the moment. I can't disagree with FNB-25 that photos do not substitute well for the gun in hand; can't disagree with S.D.H. that this might be the basis for an "honorable" trade (altho perhaps not "thriving" as all the fifth-raters and junque contribute to that), but I don't believe for a moment that such forgiving attitudes and policies are the order of the day. "Those that can recognize what they want get it; those who can't deserve what they get."

jack

A 3 day inspection is just that a 3 day inspection...personally I don't think a reason for return is necessary unless the seller gave a bad description...then I would be wanting all my shipping fees refunded (but it ain't happening).

Looking at Mr.Leggs Gunbroker feed back it appears that he sent a gun back for some reason.

The guy that bought this gun from Mr.Legg out of Gunbroker can't leave him feed back and also looses all protection that Gun Broker gives a buyer.

Truth is he has to take anything Mr.Legg decides to dish out to him...something I'm sure Mr.Legg is well aware of.

I haven't bought or sold many guns online. On top of that I have been firmly on the buyer's side when it comes to conflicts between buyer and seller.

Having said that, it looks like nobody bid on this gun while it was up on Gunbroker. That says to me that the buyer made an offer contingent on the gun not selling. He had the benefit of watching the entire auction, and then proceeded to make a lower offer. The description clearly states that the gun has 26" barrels. So he got the gun from his dealer and suddenly remembered that he didn't like 26" bbls? That sounds fishy to me.

My understanding of the 3 day inspection is that you have three days to examine the gun and make sure it is as advertised. Not so you can decide if it makes you feel like life now has meaning.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107333006

Check out the bid history.

It looks to me like Mr. 22eley may have decided to go with a 26" gun until this one came along and then wanted out of the deal. Just a thought.

Nick

YES as you can see JIM gave me 3 days,i called him 45 mins after gun got to shop,He lied and started swimming backwards like Bill Clinton.we are only as good as our word.his word is TRASH! its ALL in HIS email.

I thought all SxS's were supposed to give life meaning....

I sell and buy items over the net all the time, and this particular case is certainly one that is on that proverbial fence.

I agree that there were no caveats in Jim's return policy thus leaving it open for different interpretations. When I sell something from my own website (antiques, and non-firearms)I will take it back if they do not like it in hand as they did from the pictures (antiques sometime look very different in hand than in photos). However I do agree with Jim that not liking 26" barrels puts it into an entirely different situation altogether. He is correct that the buyer can go to a gunshop first and handle 26-28-30 inch barrels to determine what he likes and wants in barrel length. This was not the way for any internet buyer to find out his likes regarding gun specifications.

A suggestion to John (22eley): Why don't you offer Jim $75/100 for all of his trouble in sending photos,numerous phone conversations and handling the shipment, in addition to reimbursing his shipping and insurance costs to you. He might take it as a show of good faith and you can treat it as an alternative cost to having driven around to various shops to determine what you wanted in a SxS.

They do Joe. Except maybe the 311's.

Bottom line a 3 day inspection is just that, a 3 day inspection. If you don't like it or the 28" that you have REALLY wanted comes along, as long as your in your 3 DAY INSPECTION, your golden. Send the son of a gun back. The seller ain't going to like it, but when is a seller going to like a gun comming back? It is too bad that we have to waste all this energy here, but we do, but we do because dealers do not want to take guns back. They try to strong arm folks into keeping guns that people don't want, that don't look as good as they looked in pictures, and so on...

KISS= Keep it simple sonny, A 3 day inspection = A 3 day inspection (no questions asked)

"May be returned within three days of date of delivery no questions asked."

"May be returned within three days of date of delivery if not as described."

"As is--cannot be returned."

"May be returned within three days if not as described at which time a $60 restocking fee will be deducted from price."

"Seller didn't specify."

"3-day return privilege."

If I thought the gun was worth the trouble, I know which of these statements of policy are unambiguous, which demand clarification, which invite negotiation. I've put them in order as a helpful clue.

jack

I'm having trouble with the Uggie...

I still can't understand that, the man buys the 26 inch barrels, finds out they are too whippy or whatever, wants to send them back, it is inside the 3 day and seller won't do it. Hum hum hum

As the seller, do you pay shipping and insurance costs?

In this case, as virtually always, shipping and insurance was paid by the buyer. Why should the seller be reimbursed?

It's called the 3 day inspection with the hidden clause "just don't plan on returning it".

Mike, you've a good point.

To appease him ?

Precise language is desirable in ads. After the buyer and seller have done the hokey-pokey, I doubt if a verbal agreement (say as to the meaning of "three day inspection and right of return") could be determined even to exist without a witness and who's that gonna be--Sprint? Get it in writing or don't whine when your gentleman's agreement turns to dust in the wind. Or, go against the grain, buy only from pawnshops with "rusty guns" in the letterhead and be pleasantly surprised. Actually happened to me buying an Elvis-y Smith
19-3. I'm so lucky!!

jack

Rabbit the "witness" is Mr.Leggs email..

If Mr.Legg is not willing to take the gun back....why did he include the words "if returned" in his email ?

In this case he hates 26" barrels and wants to return it though he knew they were 26" barrels.Many say if its with in three it should be Ok but how about if he said he didn't like SxS guns and wanted to send it back. Same thing in my book so WTF buy something you know you don't like. Good leason on how not to waste someones time and effort just to hold a different gun and send it back.

I can tell you what I would have done had I been the seller. I would have taken the gun back, and I would have made sure 22Eley knew he was to never contact me again, ever. Then I would have sold the gun to someone else and rested easy at night knowing that 22Eley was a loser, not me.

By refusing to take the gun back, the seller lowered himself to 22's level.

I hope in the future Jim does a better job of defining the terms of his return policy. I hope in the future 22Eley learns not to waste people's time. I suspect 22Eley is the same guy who buys an expensive pair of high heels to wear to a fancy ball then returns them the next day.

I have never heard anything negative about Mr. Jim. Conversly, I have never heard of Mr. 22Eley. Who to believe ??? -- Ken

Jim Legg has put me on his ignore list for something he thinks I've said at sometime or other...and now his muck pops-up all over the place.
By Jove, perhaps I'll return the favor now ol'boy!
BUT not yet, I must see how he tries to climb out of the dumper first on this one.
Funny how things go, eh Jim!

Did you not read Jims email before you commented ?

I would have bought both guns and been happy. The ejector gun is probably going to go above what it is worth, unfortunately. Then Eley22 will have to go shopping again.

I would think that keeping the customer (even a bad customer) happy, should be the name of the game.
All this fallout, by not doing so, is not really worth it.
But, what the hell do I know?

I've never been in this situation but if I went through all the trouble of sending a gun as represented I'd be reluctant to take it back and definitely not for "it's not good for me." I haven't time for it.

I'd feel differently if the buyer disagreed with my description of the gun. Since the buyer in this case provided no evidence of Jim being a thief or liar the thread should in all fairness be removed.

Why is everyone dancing around the email...

Here is my 2 cents on it. Seller tells in his last sentence to ask questions before bidding. Like stated, no body bid, so my quess is that this person was lurking and waiting for no bids and then approached seller and made an offer stating "since there were no bids on your item wouuld you take $$$$$ amount for it.
Seller gave a full description and it doesn't mention anything about a 3 day inspection in the listings.

"Beautiful .410 SxS for sale. 26" barrels, 3" chambers, IC/Mod, two triggers and extractors. Gun was bought new in March of 2007 by me. Still looks like new and is actually better than new, in that it has two ivory beads, manual safety and a .6" Pachmayr Decelerator pad and all the misses have been shot out. Comes in original box. Weighs 5 lbs. 7 oz., 14-1/4" LOP, DAC is 1-1/2", DAH is 2-5/8" and has 1/4" cast-off. 2008 price is $1995. MY PRICE INCLUDES SHIPPING AND INSURANCE TO YOUR FFL. Please ask any questions you may have before bidding."

If seller added 3 day inspection for item in an email, to me it would mean if the gun didn't fit or some unknown problem but not that the buyer didn't like the 26" barrels. It was there in black and white how long they were. Like stated I also believe that the buyer found another one with longer barrels and possibly cheaper.
So in my opinion, why would Jim accept the return? The deal was done out of Gunbroker and maybe that will teach the buyer to buy the item on the auction site and not to make a "deal" afterwards.

It's not a good thing to hear and read about, and I hope this is settled in an amicable way.

HEY! when i was 13 a 311 gave my life meaning.

for that matter i'd not turn one down now under the right cicrumstances. i've always had a fondness for them. they were the double of the farm kid who didn't like repeaters. made in USA, indestructible. affordable. everything else is gravy.

roger

"The deal was done out of Gunbroker and maybe that will teach the buyer to buy the item on the auction site and not to make a "deal" afterwards."

I do think that is the real problem,if a seller is inclined to cut G/B out of a sale you really should not be surprised that he will not treat you the same if the situation presents itself.Better off not "going off the reservation" and having both the protection of feedback and a honest seller.

the time frame of the 2 auctions and the interval between the close of one and the beginning of the certainly do nothing to dispell this notion. buyers remorse because one found something he likes more is not a valid reason for return no matter what the stated conditions were.

roger

I never knew that the 3 day inspection covered buyers remorse.

I never thought of buyer remorse as a reason to send a gun or wife back. Might want to see if a wife could be returned. Three days return period, if the gun was not as described or if some un-noticed flaw was detected. I have bought many guns over the net and only expect the right to return if a major flaw or major problem is found. Slight difference of conditions or minor warts are to be expected.

The barrels did not shrink, so if the buyer decided after the fact that they were too short he should have made certain that he had the right to send them back.

I'm with Homeless Joe. There is nothing ambiguous about it at all. A three day inspection period is just that, three days within which you have a right of recession. This means, three days and you can call the deal off and, as stated, pay shipping for both ways.

Unless the inspection period has other clauses or caveats...its just what it says, three days to decide if you want the gun or not.

I also note, that especially in the beginning, the seller's friends seemed to pipe up rather strongly. Based on the facts, or just that this fella was their friend. One went so far as criticising the buyer's writing ability. Certainly on the mark as to the issue at hand.

Sorry, don't know Jim...but if he says 3 day inspection and does not honor it for any reason I choose, then I don't want to buy a gun from him.

Cheers

This is a tough one. I believe one must look at what the word "inspection" means. Without consulting Webster, I would think it means loosely "to verify compliance with a set of specifications". I know that as a quality control inspector several years ago, if a vendor's product met the specifications furnished by us (dimensions, materials, finish, etc.) then whether or not we got a warm anf fuzzy feeling about the item was immaterial. After all, we were the ones who designed it and specified how it was to be made. Maybe for the purpose of internet gun buying we should call it a 3 day familiarization period. Bill Frech

Huh ?????

I think you are confusing three day inspection with a three day "no questions asked satisfaction guarantee policy."

"Inspection" is the key IMHO. If he'd said "3 day trial", maybe there'd be a case. But "inspection", as noted above, implies comparison to a standard (in this case, the ad's description), rather than "do you like it or not".

When a seller has to take a gun off the market for a week (potentially passing up other selling opportunities) and goes through the hassles of packing and shipping, he doesn't expect to see the gun back unless there was a hidden flaw in it. The buyer has a responsibility to know what he's looking for, and not "discovering" that he doesn't want what he's agreed to buy.

I'm with Jim Legg on this one.

When I worked for LL Bean we had a guy rturn a Remington 11-48 eleven years after he bought it. He got a full refund. I thought that was kind of stupid on Bean's part on the one hand, and kind of cool on the other. However, most dealers aren't multi-million dollar corporations, and cannot afford to be shipping guns hither and yon at the whim of buyers. There is a time element involved that the seller isn't being compensated for. I would have a problem with jumping through hoops simply because I gave a customer what they asked for.

fnb25, My comment on 311's was tongue in cheek. I appreciate them for what they are, which are all the things you stated.

Nick

well, when I sell a gun I give a 3 day insp. That means if the buyer doesn’t like it, doesn’t think its as described etc. he can return. I always just want to know why. I have missed some very minor things that were the reason they wanted to send it back such as " I hear a piece of solder go down between the ribs when I tip[ the barrels down" or It doesn’t have an automatic safety (none described, never asked) . I took them back and of course the one buyer went through his credit card company and got his shipping back even though my auction specified no refund on shipping unless my error. CC company sided with him even though i provided copy of auction that showed terms.
Anyway, I still gave him his money back.
That said, it irks me when a buyer asks questions, gets the answers he wants, buys the gun , gets it and then calls and says something like " you didn’t say it had quarter sawn wood instead of slab sawn wood. or some other inane reason to not want it. Photos of course show these things but ...
Guy buys a Browning BAR . Auction says butt stock replaced with later one IN CAPITAL LETTERS. . photos clearly show contrast. Buyer wins it, gets it and emails back how he ever would have bought a gun with replacement stock and he was sending it back. I call him. he says same again. I politely point out that the auction stated that it was replacement. he says " I don’t read the details. I am a collector. My issue was preserving my rating and I didn’t want this guy to imply, say or anything that I lied about anything.
He then said, oh gee, I didn’t see that. I won’t give you bad feedback. He sent it back and all as good.
It works both ways. There are the sellers form hell and the buyers from hell.
My way is take it back. One guys rant is not worth 30 buck.
But that’s why the buyer needs to clarify.
Of course the ultimate return fiasco were two guns I bought from a "dealer" (guy who dabbles some, Not Jim). First Gun arrives with crack through wrist. I call him. I said I am sending back, don’t want it. I didn’t buy a gun with a cracked stock. He says no. I say yes. He says he will refuse. I say I want money back. He says no, I acted as your agent. He says he saw the gun, called me and only bought it because I wanted it!!! Then says he doesn’t have the money to refund. (I check on Gunbroker and see he has bought three guns worth over 12,000.00 since I first called and told him I wanted refund that he said he didn’t have. Hmmm, no money to refund but can buy 12K of guns???? Then says he will pay for repairs. Then says he won’t. I go through nut roll. I cut my losses. Says no 3 day on this one because it wasn’t his. Never said he was acting as intermediary, he says that was implied. Every other gun I ever bought form him had 3 day. Anyway, I got a % back, that’s all I was going to get. Then on second gun in deal, the barrels looks cut when I opened box. I called that minute I opened it and said it wasn’t original even though when he sold it to me he said it was. He said he had the letter coming and would I keep it if it lettered. I said yes. He said if it was cut he would refund me the money. The letter comes, it’s not original. I tell him I am sending back,. He says no. I have the emails. After 6 months he finally gives me money back. I have all the emails of this.

Believe you me, if I ever list another gun for sale here, MY terms will leave no wiggle room for "hopeful" interpretation to wit:

FS: 10-owner klunquer, spent more time on show tables than it did in the field, about yea long and yea heavy, stock cranked down to a faretheewell (Gramps knew how to make a long face!), shiny where it ain't pitted, blued where it ain't worn off, smooth where it ain't dented, fully functional as a door prop, not real pretty but it is old, may be one of the thousands of I believe there were only two ever made, eminently eligible for de-encrustation. Always kept safed in a burlap bag between the joists. Additional aerial photographs available. What you see is what you get except for the house slippers. All offers local or extra-planetary, before, during or after this multi-listed auction considered so winning bidder(s) need not entertain unrealistic expectations. 3-day inspection and right of return beginning I'll tell you when later, (some) money back no questions asked; restocking fee 25% of sale price or 50% whichever is higher and dependent on how much ruckus you want to make. Address: Wabbit, The Burrow (next door to The Veggies).

jack

My decision to return (as a buyer) or accept a return (as a seller) always revolves around "what goes around comes around". I sold an A. H. Fox which I had owned and shot for several years. The buyer emailed me about a week after receiving it (WITH PHOTOS) telling me the left barrel let go right in front of the chamber! He stated he was using new AA traploads and included a photo of the shell both in and out of the split barrel. He sent the gun and the remainder of the unfired shells to be analyzed. Apparently the barrel had an internal flaw when manufactured - not my fault or his. I offered to refund his money, even though I felt I had no personal liability. When the folks who did the analysis shipped the gun back to him, the stock and receiver were severely damaged. Long story short, he collected more than he paid for the gun from the carrier, it cost me nothing and we were both happy. It could have gone in an ugly direction.

Wouldn't be suprised to find out that the guy is one of the Jim haters from this forum just looking for a way to rag on Jim. My problem is some of the folks doing to ragging have screwed over other members here like the case of a member sayin that would be great if you could send me one of those and the other member does for free and never even get a thank you. You can't buy a shotgun and then say I hate shotguns I want my money back as I only like pistols. Jim you didn't send the gun to tennessee did you.

Nick, i knew it was tongue in cheek. i was just razzing you.

roger

As some of your may know, I have been in the gun business on my own for 30 years.

I give 3 day inspection. Period! I don't care if the guy sees pictures of the wood and then buys the gun and says that the wood was not that nice or what. I take it back. If I said it had 26" barrels and he purchased it and said it did not work out for him, I would take it back. If in the description it said it had 26" barrels and he was surprised it had 26" barrels when he got it I would take it back, but since it was his mistake, misunderstanding, I expect him to pay the postage both ways.

I think what I have said above is fair.


John Boyd

Amigo Will, I fear everyone may have thought of that.

mmmmmmmmmm that is why I buy guns from John Boyd.

Lapin, your last post is by far the best on this thread!

JC

P.S.: "I am going to inspect if I like it"; don't think so.

I don't know either party, and so am not judging the intentions, honesty, etc., of each. And, usually, such disagreements are due to honest miscommunication by both parties rather any bad intentions, but . . .

Verbal contracts may suffice for face-to-face transactions, but have no place in online transactions. And, specifying an inspection period in writing, and then limiting it in a non-written way (i.e. verbally, etc.) is misleading to the Buyer.

Another perspective is that the Seller is free to write the conditions of sale any way he wants. Therefor, it is the Seller's responsibility if terms are omitted from the writing, and the Buyer is not liable for the Seller's omission.

JMHO, etc.

--shinbone

John, yes that sounds perfectly fair. if the buyer simply doesn't like it, shipping both ways is his responsibility. if there's something i missed and it wasn't described accurately then it's mine. that's why to this day i can't stand jaqua's and won't have anything to do with them. $65 total shipping to look at a salt wood browning described as problem free showed up with visible rust (and lots of hidden rust) and then i got yelled at by some old coot for wanting to send it back.

roger

"Jim haters"... yer kidding me.

I live in Tennessee I know better than to pull Jims Legg.

Truth is according to Mr.Leggs email he owes the guy a refund.

Cheerz...

The Jaqua's illustration is a NO NO if it is true. I'm still not sure of my opinion on the Jim Legg situation, but I don't like the buyer. He's a wuss if I read him right, but Jim didn't do what he said he would. However, a wuss deserves to be chastised, and I think Jim found the way to do it. What do you guys think? I think Jim violated the terms of the deal, but he taught this guy a lesson. This guy will probably think twice about shopping like a JAP. Sorry, that's my final opinion.

Is a three day inspection the same as a three day return?

I think not.

"...if it's true..." ?? oooohKAY, since you put it that way. short version: 1967 medallion grade bolt rifle 300winmag, specifically asked and was told was salt free no problems. shows up. rust on crossbolts. pull from stock. rust down right side of receiver and barrel. called immediately. don't recall the name of who i talked to but conversation along lines of "gun was fine when it left here. something happened to it during transit." "has been 2 days, box was unopened, undamaged" "well, 1967 wasn't even a problem year for brownings!" (!! really?) "look. the gun has a salt wood problem and visible rust. am i allowed to send it back or not?" "WELL SEND IT BACK THEN!" i got my money back and a nice letter from someone who's name i also don't recall. but IMHO i should not have had to pay any shipping on that item period. it was misrepresented. i think i've still got copies of the snail mail and their check stub. should i send you pics of it?

the gun got reposted with no mention of salt, and showed up on another dealers site soon after still w/ no mention of salt and 50% higher.

roger

The way I see it they are both wrong. One, for 22eley attacking Mr. Legg's character. Two, for Mr. Legg not refunding the money.

Dan

I think "Three Day Inspection" could mean that you have three days to find some flaw or undesirable feature not in the ad. If Mr. Legg hadn't listed the barrels as 26" then the buyer would definitely have the right of return. Otherwise I think Jim is within his rights.

Best,

Mike

Gracias, mi amigo, for the "comedy" award. Might want to consider Jack Maloney's response as a top contender for "most nearly sane" and Wilhelm's ("WTF") in the "I can't believe the guy is from this planet" category. Hard to stay out of the linea del fuego on this one.

jack

After these 10 pages of differing opinions one thing is clear. One needs to clarify what the seller's perception of their "3 Day Inspection Period" is. The buyer needs to ask if it is return with no questions asked within 3 days or; if a 3 Day Inspection is time to verify that the gun meets the seller's description.

I've bought some nice guns over the internet but a few had a wart or two. It wasn't worth my time nor money to ship them back. Other times the buyer told me before I bought that it I didn't like the gun to send it back.

Like most things in life, good communication is the key...

It's clear in Jims email to the guy..."3 day inspection period will apply. Shipping both ways would be at your expense, if returned."

What does "if returned" mean ?....and why is the "if returned" even there ?

It should have read...

3 day inspection period will apply. Shipping both ways would be at your expense, if you try and return it yOu can kiss my dAiry'air.

Joe, you have had your chance at a field day. Not really justified in my view.
You should take off your blinders.

They (seller and buyer) communicated on the phone. Jim's silence speaks a lot.
Surely a lot was clarified in that conversation. We shall never know.

I still think that the 3 day inspection does not apply to "I don't like 26" barrels",
but...

Conejo, totally agree with you concerning Jack Maloney's outlook on the matter.
AFA well founded comedy, you rule. (The slipper reference is funny and profound
as far as gun photos go).

The buyers native tongue is clearly not english.

JMTC.

JC

I appreciate everyone's comments. Those in support of my position appear to be in the majority, thank you. Since HJ is at the top of my YAITU list, I have no idea what he said, and couldn't care less.

A few replies gave no clue as to what their opinion was.

I have bought and sold a lot of guns in the last several years. I have never returned one though some were better than described and others were not as good. I have accepted return of two guns in the past. Both smelled strongly to me that the buyer found a better deal while the package was in transit. Both were described honestly, as was this one . John and I had several phone conversations where we discussed every detail of the gun including why I was selling it.

The sale was made OFF the Gunbroker board and I gave him a very good price that included shipping and insurance. While we did not pick apart my offer of a 3-day inspection down to legal terms, it was my intention that it meant the gun would be as described, no hidden flaws or surprises. It was.

I knew John didn't like 26" barrels because we discussed that at length(no pun intended), on the phone. But he bought the gun anyway, knowing very well what the barrel length was. My refusal to accept a return for the stated reason that he "couldn't live with the 26" barrels" is justified, IMO. I can live with it.

My feedback rating on Gunbroker was not achieved by lying and/or cheating people. I'm sorry John is not happy but I will not change my mind on the subject.

This will be my last reply on this topic(I hope)

Thanks to all

Bien hecho Jaime!!!

JC

The remarks about the guy not liking the gun because they are 26" might be a little bit off base. If he didn't like them he'd never have bought the gun. Someone can like a particular length of barrels on most guns yet not like the way they feel on a particular gun. The only way to make that determination is with gun in hand. I can guarantee you that I can find something on any gun that isn't listed in a two paragraph auction. Unless it was obvious damage or a misrepresentation and not something subjective I would expect to pay return shipping as the buyer.


Yes, although the latter was merely a reaction to the former. I'm not sure where else 22eley could go to get the sympathy, gratification, or whatever he was seeking.


John Boyd, I appreciate your business ethics. You understand that simple tenet that the customer is always right, even though he often isn't.

Skip

Did anyone really expect Mr. Legg to honor his email to the guy ?

I know I didn't.

I would treat this as any other contractual disagreement; I would try to work things out and if I was unable to do so I would litgate the matter in my jurisdiction, attempt to obtain a judgement and proceed from there.

jOe I believe it comes down to interpretation of the "three day inspection." I can see both interpretations but I believe Jim's was an honest interpretation.

When I make a deal to buy a long distance gun I ask for and usually receive a "No questions asked 7 day right of return." After the deal is made I followup with an email or fax as Jim did.

Best,

Mike

I don't know either of the principals, but I think Mr. Legg is being too rigid.

Whenever I buy or sell a gun on the internet, I use the wording "the buyer may return the gun within 3 days of receipt for ANY/NO REASON, but must pay shipping charges both ways."

Over the past ten years, I've never had to return a gun, but have had two returned to me.

Jerry Goldstein
St. Louis, MO

There's nothing I hate more than a guy who counts the replies, and then thanks everyone for their vote of confidence.
Jim Legg prolly has blocked all the negative reviews!

Thorny, is english your native language?

It isn't mine, but I try my best!

JC

When your from the third world, I guess you try a little harder.

There is the letter of the law and there is the spirit of the law. If anyone re-reads 22eley's very first post on this forum, that should tell all of us something about 22eley's inherent spirit.

What goes around comes around doesn't always happen in life, and good guys don't always finish first.

Without knowing anything about Mr. Legg and his past posting or dealing history, seeing those blazing 28"+ eley barrels out of the chute would make me side with Legg.

Eley could have easily asked first what all of us here thought was meant by a three day inspection period, but chose not to.

I had a gun consigned with a firm in one of the western states, I don't think I will identify it. The operator sent the gun, a British double with double triggers, home with a guy. (I found this out later.) He told him it was OK to shoot it. The buyer returned the gun saying he "couldn't get used to the double triggers." First, I was surprised the operator said it was OK to shoot it, secondly, I was miffed he accepted it back with that being the only objection. Of course, I don't know what the operator told the would-be buyer. I still consign guns with this company but I'm on the fence about doing much more business with them.
My point is that I understand both points of view. This is a small (relatively) niche we are in; you guys may encounter one another down the road. I don't think there are many things worth burning bridges over. As outsiders, it's hard to know what was said over the phone as far as return privileges. I don't think it is our job to cheer for anyone. I have done several deals with Jim; I have found him to be a total gentleman. I hope the other person is as well and that you guys can find a mutually acceptable solution.

Lowell that's funny! Like an election in the old USSR.

Best,

Mike

Gentlemen do not open a discussion by calling their opponent a "LIAR", "THIEF" and "CROOK". The sad thing is that name-calling creates a barrier to reasonable discussion between the parties, and possible resolution.

It means "if returned because it fails inspection."

It does not seem to mean "if returned because you changed your mine."

As clear as it seem to you that Jim is in the wrong, it seems equally clear to me that he is well within his rights.

I think the gentlemanly thing to do would have been to let him return it, but I don't think he has to, given his email.


I think there is no way to justify the original post in this thread. It is a smarmy way to go about things.

Much better would have been to ask, without naming names, what people's expectations of return would be given the language of the email. If the consensus was that he should be able to return it, then he would have had something to take back to Jim.

I said in my only post that Jim didn't do what he said he would do, but the buyer was a wuss who deserved to be chastised. Jim found a creative way to chastise him. The buyer needed to be taught a lesson and Jim found a way to do that. End of story. Well, not actually the end. I also said that I would have been glad to own both Jim's gun and the gun that the wuss is bidding on. I wish the wuss good luck on his bidding.

Perhaps ol' 8bore has popped-up with something - perhaps he should buy Jim's gun from the "wuss". That would be a stand-up thing to do ol'boy, and the topper would be a real "end of story."

IMHO, 3 day inspection is time allowed for any discrepancies in how the gun was described. Not described properly, return it, done. Returns for "not liking the gun" is up to the discretion of the seller, not the buyer, or to be determined before the sale.

Jim is teaching the guy a lesson ....we've all saw Jims lesson teaching on here before.

Looking at Mr.Leggs Gunbroker feed back it appears he's sent or had a gun sent back to him before....I noticed in his earlier post that he claims otherwise.

The lesson I see being taught is not to trust in your fellow man.

Try ordering a bespoke $100,000 double with 26" barrels from H&H and then returning it because you decide you just don't like 26" barrels. The point is that the barrel length is not a subjective description. If the wood wasn't as it appeared in the photos, or the color of the case hardening looked strange, O.K., return it. But, 26" is 26". Hard for me to see how there could be any misunderstanding here.

A quick read thru the posting on this and it appears that I may be in the minority opinion on this one but I do agree with S.D. Hughes. ya know the way most people understand the three day inspection clause is exactly as stated. Three day inspection period! with right of return from the date it was received by the buyers dealer! NO REASON for return has to be given by the buyer! I am a bit worked up about this because it makes for bad business for the buyers and sours them on conducting long distance transactions. Have I been stuck with a POS gun becuase the seller lied? ja I have and that experience has lead me to resolve NOT to buy anything from someone I don't know or can't check out thru mutual friend. Thanks for the Warning 22eley Jeff S.

I have returned several guns in the past. What I have found very interesting (and amusing)is several of the sellers did not want me to tell them why I am returning the gun. They had no interest in hearing what I had discovered. They're just anxious to end the conversation. Interesting.

Three day inspections: I learned long ago to clarify the return policy. I usually will ask a seller if I can return the gun for any reason (including no reason). If there is any hesitancy on the sellers part I end the deal right there. Life is too short.

Joe, in keeping with my standard 800 day inspection privilege, you may still return the Scott hammer gun. Daryl

Seller's remorse!

Yes. If the item does not suit you there is 3 days to return it in unaltered condition. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
Now you know why I don't buy guns previously unheld from people I do not know.

Denny Crane comes up the sidewalk in a cheerleaders outfit, with a women's wig sliding off the side of his head and limping because of a broken heel on one of his high heeled shoes after a rough night on the town. He wonders how his face got so smeared with lipstick and he has never in all his 60 years remembered being on a college girls cheerleader's squad. As he gets up to the house he is startled by the crash at the front window that leaves a body hanging half in and half out of the house while vomiting in the bushes. As he opens the door, he ducks under a glass that had once held his grandmother's teeth next to her bed, and hears it splatter against the door jam next to his head. One man has smashed a table over another bloke's skull. Another shovel headed moron has his sister in a headlock and is choking her as he screams, because she has his crotch in a vise grip with her hand while twisting it furiously. A man is dancing around the room screaming in pain because someone has buried a knife through his foot. Another young man is crawling around the floor on his hands and knees looking for the chunk of his ear that has been bitten off, while his brother is staring down at his once new Leisure Suit that is now in repair of a missing breast pocket. Denny Crane quietly backs out the door and tiptoes with a broken high heeled limp back down the sidewalk, trying not to be noticed or involved. About that time a bus filled with screaming girl cheerleaders hanging out of the windows comes around the corner and heads his way as they all start screaming, "De-e-e-en-n-y-y-y-y-y-y. De-e-e-e-en-n-y-y-y-y-y!! He runs as fast as his broken high heeled shoe can take him and jumps on the bus just in time to head out of town and get away from all this mess.

As long as we give as good as we expect, I see no problem with some sellers granting maximum elbow room for return and others less so long as in each specific instance there is a mutual understanding which is respected by both parties to the sale. From a rough tally of the posts here, I would not say that I know how "most people" interpret inspection and right of return. I have always stuck to the "not as described" permission but have been lenient in other areas. I recently had a successful bidder ask me by email if I could hold the gun for 14 days before shipping due to his inability to take delivery while on vacation. A lot can happen in 14 days while I'm in possession of both gun and money, so I responded by asking if his receiver would mind holding the gun. Answer was affirmative and I shipped. Emailed to tell me the date he personally took delivery and again to tell me he was happy and would post feedback on GB. He could have fibbed and got a few extra days and more opportunity to prospect for defects and I don't really care. On a recent purchase, I stated to a licensed dealer that I would not be able to take delivery for two days after ETA at my receiver and no objection was made to me calling back and starting the clock on my own recognizance. Altho I'm sure many receivers are trusted as proxy inspectors of the purchase, this is not universally the case. I doubt if the system would function for many of us if the requirements of jobs and travel were not considered. We all have slightly different personal policies and safeguards against the loggerhead of sharp dealing. The system stands or falls on the honesty, good will, patience (and to a degree) flexibility of all who participate--buyers and sellers. And perhaps most important of all--explicit statement of the expectations and policies acceptable to both parties BEFORE the sale. If you aren't met half-way before the sale, chances are you won't be after.

jack

This post is act of kindness to Jim (or John)but I say it’s none of our business.
John need to sort this out with Jim or seek justice else where. I’m sure not all dialog between the 2 parties are exposed to us, arbitrate ones character based on limited information provided by opposing party is like umpire a tennis match with blindfold. To me, this is complete meaningless and tasteless.

I'm not going to take sides on this one, but thank Lordie for the 3 day acceptance/rejection period. Few years ago I bought Merkel 122 from Mid-Western dealer. It went back because I didn't want to break my thumb or use my knee to load/unload that piece. Some of you guys would not give me a refund no doubt, and have me strain myself till I blew you a good fart!

I've read all the Posts.
Purchasing a a firearm for most of us is a very personal matter. Selling for many has become a business matter.
The original Poster is not someone I would like to do business with by the reading and intent of the original Post.
26" barrel is not a reason to return a firearm.
But and this is the BIG BUT, the 3-day inspection period is just that, a 3-day period to inspect and return the firearm. Why, because a description, even with numerous pictures is simply not good enough to disclose all. The 3-days is not an allowance to head to the range and shoot the gun until you are satisfied/dissatisfied although I know of individuals that have done that and dealers that have accepted returns based on that.
The gun should be returned at the purchasers expense and I at least would not have dealings with the purchaser. In terms of damages, I think a British Court would have allowed the purchaser 2 pennies in the past. -Dick

Gee, asking Big Eight to buy Spanish .410 SxS is pretty tall order. I mean Big Bore can buy .410 repeater (Winchester 42 or Jap redo comes to mind) and not have to worry about poi issues which seem to come up more often with fewer pellets to a swarm.

That's a tough one. Most sellers would have MI or CVA if buyer shot 5x/barrel at a plate 16yrds away. Hey, if the "shoe" don't fit or has a defect you are goin' to wear it anyway! Tough shit.

.......... What in the world are you talking about?.........Denny Crane

........And what the heck is this supposed to mean?..........Denny Crane

Disclosure is not the issue here. The buyer bought a gun clearly specified as 26" barrels. He wants to return it because it has 26" barrels. Go figure. The gun was also specified as an Uggie - should he be able to return it because he doesn't like Uggies? Doesn't the buyer have a responsibility to know what he wants?

Some here have cited the liberal return policies of L.L.Bean and other large-scale retailers. But big box retailers can make big bucks on repeat-repeat-repeat sales, so they can cut their customers some slack. Small scale dealers and one-time sellers on gun auctions can't afford such generosity. Nor should we expect it of them.

He should be able to return it, undamaged and unused, for any damn reason he wants. Otherwise it needs to be a 3 day inspection for dings in the wood, or a 3 day inspection for bluing, or a three day inspection for head space.

But what he got was a three day inspection, period, the purpose of which is to allow buyer to decide upon first hand inspection, whether he wants the gun...no matter if his reason is sound or trivial. If trivial, don't do business with him again (personally I agree with those who think the original poster's rant was ungentlemanly and coarse and that his reason should for return should have been obvious before shipping...but that does not change the issue).

I state again, I would not but a gun from a seller who offers an unmitigated three day inspection period and then objects to return on grounds not previously specified.

This ain't that hard and it doesn't matter how silly, trivial, or childish you think of the OP . Unused, undamaged in any way, buyer pays shipping/insur both ways...its a done deal...it should be able to go back for any reason.

Cheers

I can and do

But Mr.Legg is teaching this guy a lesson....

I hope this is a bitter pill for Jim Legg - bad press is bad press.
He should know, cash is king and Uggie's ain't!

........Cash is King and Uggies ain't??????? What the heck does that mean???.........Denny Crane

This post is almost as good as the one that went, "Taking It Like A Man" because I've got a small bore. Don't you think?...........Denny Crane

Something my uncle used to tell me: "The more someone yells and the nastier they get, the more likely they are absolutely wrong." Mr. 22eley sure wrote some nasty stuff on his first post.

On the other hand, selling stuff over the internet takes a lot of trust and faith on both sides. The seller's caveats on some GunBroker items read like a mortgage contract. But being explicit in the transaction drives out ambiguity, which is always a good thing in business. As nice as it would be to do business with "gentleman's agreements", at some point one side or the other will dispute what exactly that agreement means and who is or is not a gentleman.

So, I'm somewhat sympathetic to both sides. BUT, Mr.22ely sounds like the folks that used to take huge advantage of LL Bean's return policy. Buy a set of beautiful hiking boots, go on a sheep hunt in Alaska, and then turn them in for a refund (as told to me at the Freeport store by a manager).

Something my uncle used to tell me: "The more someone yells and the nastier they get, the more likely they are absolutely wrong." Mr. 22eley sure wrote some nasty stuff on his first post.

On the other hand, selling stuff over the internet takes a lot of trust and faith on both sides. The seller's caveats on some GunBroker items read like a mortgage contract. But being explicit in the transaction drives out ambiguity, which is always a good thing in business. As nice as it would be to do business with "gentleman's agreements", at some point one side or the other will dispute what exactly that agreement means and who is or is not a gentleman.

So, I'm somewhat sympathetic to both sides. BUT, Mr.22ely sounds like the folks that used to take huge advantage of LL Bean's return policy. Buy a set of beautiful hiking boots, go on a sheep hunt in Alaska, and then turn them in for a refund (as told to me at the Freeport store by a manager).

Sorry,

Don't know why that posted twice...

Useless bore Spanish doubles are notoriously hard to move.

Why can't dude return gun with 26" barrels. For example, BSS with 26" tubes and Ugartechea 25 or 26-incher con Churchill rib have just one thing in common the barrels are SxS.

Ditto...I could not have said it better.

I feel this is the whole problem with the right to return on 3 day inspection. I always took it to mean you could return it, if it was not as described. It was as described. I never accepted the idea, that someone had the chance to decide that they really didn't want to buy it after all or wished they had bought another gun. To me, this whole idea of returning it on the basis of "changed mind", is not fair to the whole system. The seller wasted effort in marketing the gun, other buyers lost their chance to buy it, the buyer got exactly what he bargained for. What is the problem? In my opinion, if you don't want to spend the money for a gun you bid on, you shouldn't be in the bidding. Maybe the terminolgy of 3 day inspection needs to be changed. My perception always meant to accept the condition as represented, not as a change of desire to own.

Useless bore Spanish doubles are notoriously hard to move.

Sorry dude I gotta throw the BS flag on that one!

None of us here know exactly what was discussed between the two parties during all those conversations, for all we know the barrel lenght could have been mentioned several times or not at all. The specifics of the inspection period might have been discussed or not at all as well.

In every area regarding purchaser and seller the word inspection is undertood by all, to insure the item is as described and there are no undisclosed serious deviations. Do we now have to identify for everyone's protection not only what inspection period means, but the definition of buyer, refund, shipping, gauge, forearm, drop at heel, etc.

I recently purchased several guns over the course of a year from a big gun dealer on the net that were listed as new 99% demos, all were by the same maker. All were better than expected, and the last one was very dirty and used extensively. I sent him an email about it and he never replied to me. But from the beginning I never asked him for his personal definition of demo, so I chose not to pursue it. And I would never bad mouth him and broadcast it on any site. If some one asked me about him Ionly then would I relate my personal experiences, both good and bad.

If I bought a single trigger gun, received it, and decided I really wanted a double trigger instead, I would never try to return it without offering the seller reasonable compensation for his trouble. And if he simply said no to me, that's O.K., it was my fault not his.

I guess the gulf between those that think the buyer has the right to return this gun for whatever reason or only the right to return it if there is an undisclosed flaw remains open and unlikely to close.
To me if the ad doesn't say something like "Unconditional Return" then return privileges are in fact restricted to flaws only.
Hopefully we have all learned an important lesson here.
Jim

DRM, barrel length was in the ad.

Barrel length was in the ad, but, still the gun should be able to be returned. Eley should have said, I don't like the BALANCE, instead of I don't like the 26 inch barrels. Somehow saying I don't like 26" barrels when the ad states the gun has 26" barrels somehow makes Mr. Legg feel justified. Where that is not what the fella was relly talking about. And really, even if eley just changes his mind (which is a chump, pain in the butt, if you are on the other end) that is just the way it should be. If you offer an inspection, you should honor it.

I think why myself and alot of other people have a hard time with this is because there are sellers that are less than honest in their descriptions and leave out specific details and this is why liberal 3 day inspections are necessary in order to do good business on the internet.

I'm afraid if there was a pOle taken Mr. Jim would be left standing on one Legg.

I don't think anyone spells as badly as that buyer when sober. I think he was in the tank when he wrote the post. He was probably in the tank when he spoke to Legg and Legg wanted no more to do with him. That guy would have scared me, too. What was the chance that the gun would have come back undamaged and the whole debate would have been over with? Not much chance of that, in my opinion. Legg took the easy way out, probably the right decision. Care to comment, Jim?

You're not insinuating that Mr.Legg would take advantage of a guy that had been drinking are you ?

Maybe the guy was drinking when he bought the Uggie. (I know I'd have to be pretty inebriated to buy one).

That sheds a whole new light on this unfortunate situation....wonder if Mr. Legg is aware of the penalties of selling a gun to a man that had been drinking ?

Maybe it's time for eley to comment as to why he believes an inspection period normally includes buyer's remorse as a valid reason to return a firearm that meets specifications and descriptions, especially when it required all that extra work delivering through FFL's. Will a gun store let you special order a gun they don't have on their shelf and have to purchase it themselves for you, just so you can handle it and then possibly simply say "I've changed my mind and I don't want it"?

I've quoted my last reply because some of the recent posters apparently did not even read it.

Here's some further information: The first contact I had with John (22eley) was an e-mail he sent to me while the gun was in an active auction. In it he told me how he could buy these guns for $500-700 in his part of the country. This was sent in the area where you "ask the seller a question". I politely suggested he should buy one of the $500 guns. I added that I would like buy a dozen Grade II guns like mine, at $700 each. I should have figured him for a flake and steered clear of him. Even though he preferred longer barrels, he was so enthusiastic about this one, knowing full well it was 26" that he even called Mike Orlen to discuss having choke tubes installed in it. We had several more phone conversations and finally agreed on a price. At this time there were no bids on my Gunbroker ad and I pulled it. In my last e-mail to him I included the phrase about 3 day inspection, never dreaming he would want to return it as the gun was like new and he knew every detail about it. If I ever sell another gun on the Internet, you can be sure my return policy will be thoroughly and clearly stated. I don't know what his real reason for wanting to return it but I seriously doubt it had anything to do with the well-known 26" barrels. When he called me after receiving the gun to tell me he couldn't live with the 26" barrels I told him I would not accept a return for that reason. He got huffy and hung up on me. I'm sorry he's not happy and I'm sorry I even stuck the "3 day return" in my e-mail. But my decision stands.
Thank you,

You got the wrong person!-Dick

I must be slow to understand. The buyer knew all the things that was a reguirement to him that created his desire to purchase. Yet, he says he wants to send it back, even though it was as described. What is the problem with the gun? Nothing! What is the problem with the buyer? Buyer's remorse! Maybe a return in this case with a restocking fee. In a real estate transaction, there is an earnest money deposit, that is not returned if the buyer voluntarily wants out of the contract. Why do you think that is done? Think about it. Why would a seller want to not sell the property/item to the buyer who placed a contract on it? Why would the buyer want out of the sale if everything was disclosed to him and by his own admission it was as represented? We are all big boys and girls here. Enter into a contract and understand that a contract is just that. If there is an issue that can not be negotiated to the satisfaction of both parties, see an attorney.

I have sellers remorse on an SKB Royal, I sold about 4 years ago. Why can't I get it back? I will even pay shipping! Heck, I will be more than happy to give him what he payed for it. I entered into a contract to sell and I must now live with that consequence.

BTW "you could return it, if it was not as described. It was as described"

The primary reason for the 3-day policy is that the sellers description frequently is different than the buyers description after the buyer has the gun in hand. To then debate between seller and buyer over what is in fact the truth is fruitless. A 3-day return policy does away with this problem and allows one to purchase and inspect and return the gun paying for shipping both ways.
I can unequivocally tell you that without that policy I would NEVER purchase a firearm I did not have in hand from anyone. If you as a seller want to perpetuate the way business was done 30 years ago with sellers routinely sending guns not up to thier description, than go ahead. The simple fact of the matter is that sellers of that era are not in business(some have mercifully past on) anymore for a reason.-Dick

I did not much care for the inital email which started this thing, but I am left equally uncomfortable with Mr. Legg's srict constructionist interpretation of his own return policy. I think he is technically correct in this dispute. And I would never order a gun from him.

I remember a drilling which I purchased from Thad Scott years ago. Gun looked as described and I was delighted to keep it. Nearly a month later, I finally made it to the range and fired it. I discovered a previous owner had bored out the chamber from the original 7x57R. Thad took it back no questions asked, and I have purchased two or three other doubles from him in the ensuing years and recomended him to numerous friends. Did he have to take it back? No, I suppose not. But he is a gentleman, and fully understands that in our small world of side x sides a reputation is everything.

Jim, I don't know how much business you generate off this forum, but even among those of us who believe you are technically correct in this instance, I wonder how many will now have second thoughts before placing their next order.

Just another horror story from people who buy guns over the internet and/or have them shipped across the country. I don't feel sorry for anyone who does this. For years on this board people have been getting screwed buying guns over the internet without seeing them IN PERSON. I find it unbelieveable that people would do this. (It is hard enough to buy a gun at a show and not miss seeing something until after you get the gun home.) Then people have to ship them across the country in the hopes that some gun hater at UPS doesn't (and this has happened on this board) run over it with a towmotor, breaking it in half. So have fun in your continuing habit of doing this. All you people will get when you whine and cry about your loss from me is the comment- "BUCKET AND MOP TO AISLE FOUR!! BUCKET AND A MOP TO AISLE FOUR!! WE NEED TO HAVE SOME SLOBBER CLEANED UP!!"

I think that most of us will always purchase guns over the internet. I have purchased several with no problems. If you live in a rural area you will never get a chance to see any guns that you might like. It is not feasable to fly across the country to look at a gun.

Jim.....take the gun back and refund the money. It's the right thing to do and, if you had done it to start with, you could have avoided nine or ten pages of debate on your honesty, integrity, morals, intelligence, attitudes and philosophy. Nobody needs that kind of stuff posted on the internet. There is more conjecture about you on this board than about McCain and Obama combined. JMHO.

I've bought a total of three guns over the internet; kept them all. I did negotiate the price on one of them after receipt due to a difference of opinion on condition; the seller agreed. The other two went off without a hitch. Frankly, it never occurred to me that "three day inspection period" meant anything other than just that: within the three days, I could return it for any reason, even if I just changed my mind. I'm glad I didn't find out the hard way. Of course I was willing to pay shipping both way, and the FFL expense would be on me; that's my part of the risk involved. The risk to the seller is that I might return it, and he loses a sale.

One thing this thread has done for me: I'll be damned sure of the "conditions" of the return policy, should I ever do it again.

i don't think either party here is strictly speaking at fault. i do think terms for return need to be very carefully spelled out and if they're not, then any reason at all qualifies (except finding something else one wants more in the meantime).

as to the buyer in this case, i've identified another for my blocked bidder list. from what jim describes, i'd have blocked this guy almost immediately. anybody takes that long to go ahead and buy something, esp after pulling that "i can get them here for $$blahblah" BS, has trouble written all over him. i've long since learned off ebay experience to head off a lot of trouble at the pass, just from the questions or the way they're asked.

and based on the other auction item pointed out, i'd say this is a pretty certain case of nothing but buyers remorse which isn't valid for return ever.

the tone of the buyers original post pretty much confirms him as someone to never do business with.

roger

Hey, Jim is teaching us a lesson which sould have been common sense in the first place. When one buys ANYTGHING over the net previously unseen they better know exactly what they're buying. Mr. Legg can sleep well knowing he sold gun as described and 22Eley can get some satifaction from dwindling pool of future customers from Herr Legg. Mission accomplished!
PS. Gun world is full of tragic und painful encounters. Just look at "twice fired" RUMs, .416s, .458s,.....in used gun racks! It almost brings tears to ones' eyes simply looking at them.

But see, it IS. Unless it's specified otherwise, it's no different than any purchase one makes. It shouldn't make any difference if it's over the internet or at your local Home Depot: a return policy is a return policy, end of story. It's the SELLERS responsibility to limit the terms of the return, if there are any.

I'm not going to wade thru 17 pages of this stuff, but I am going to state that I know Jim Legg personally, have shot with him, and he is a good guy. Maybe old and crotchety, but not dishonest, and not a thief.

From Webster:


Definition #2 applies here.

Gee, me understands perfect now! Whaaat

Mr.Legg admittedly gave the guy a 3 day unconditional inspection and return period with the understanding the buyer pay shipping both ways, and says now he wishes he hadn't. A man either keeps his word or he doesn't. Return his money, Jim; do it for yourself...Geo

Now I see why he won't live up to his end of the bargain.

Happy feet!! I've got those happy feet!! Within a day's drive I can drive nearly halfway across the US. I don't take chances like some people do. And that gives me happy feet!! Oh, happy feet!!

Bingo. I don't understand why some seem to have trouble grasping this. We're not talking about buying something out of a storefront operation. We're talking about buying a USED gun off the internet sight unseen. Doing so makes no sense at all without a no questions asked return policy during an inspection period of adequate length (which 3 days sometimes is, but sometimes is not). The internet sellers I've bought from have universally offered such a policy, and most reputable net dealers do. Personally, I would never consider doing business with one that did not. I have better things to do than waste time and money messing with the fly-by-night crowd.

It is a difficult one.

If the returns policy is without conditions, refund the buyer and charge shipping to him.

If the returns policy is only to check that the gun is as described, don't refund him unless he has cause to argue about the description vs the gun as it arrived.

As a seller, you have to bother with tyre kickers and time wasters - so apply thesecond condition.

As a buyer you worry that buying a gun unseen is a risk - afterall you can't really get a feel for agun unless you have it in your hands.

The solution? Don't buy or sell on the 'net.

or Make sure that teh stated policy is clear from the start and adhere to it.

My advice for what it is worth - Jim, give the chap a refund for the sake of a happy client, make very clear what your returns policy is in future deals and put it down to experience.

Should have had it throughly and clearly stated this time....but yOu didn't.

So Pony-up Mr. Jimmy.

I didn't know who Jim Legg was ...but I most certainly do now....as do hundreds of others.
I don't have any personal axe to grind here. However, this whole exchange is about fighting against clarity in an industry standard. A 3 day inspection is simply that. Return it for whatever reason. That is why a buyer agrees to pay shipping and insurance if returned.
The implications of Legg's comments are that had the buyer simply said "I am returning it...I don't like it." He would have accepted the return....the 26" barrels notwithstanding. Legg is trying to redefine an (until now) accepted industry standard with a specious and juvenile "gotcha" argument and "extraneous facts". Buyers can be difficult...but even the most difficult people get 3 day inspection periods. Legg is a dealer….let's all remember that. He is supposed to uphold that standard.
Having destroyed his reputation over a crappy $1300 gun could be the most stupid thing imaginable. Legg has done thousands of dollars worth of damage to himself.
Bad reputations in this business get distributed geometrically. As evidence of that, I have not posted here in quite a while, but I learned of and was directed to this story from an entirely different site and I suspect it is on several other sites. It doesn't really matter that some here agree with Mr. Legg….nor does it matter that Mr. Legg is so strident in his supposed righteousness …his reputation is done. Not very smart….but whatever.
We all know who the "bad players" are in this business. Mr. Legg has unfortunately just enrolled in that most august group….with honors.

How so, jOe?

How so, jOe?

Yes, how so Joe? luckydog has brought up a good question. We would like to hear just exactly what you have to say for yourself. And thanks for your comments, vrs. It was good to hear from you..............Denny Crane, self appointed narrator and chief instigator

I know Jim only through this board. I consider a "Contract" to buy just that. Unless specifically spelled out otherwise I consider an "Inspection" period just that, a time to make sure it arrived as advertised. I would, in spite of all the nay sayers have no qualms at all about purchasing an item from Jim if his description met my desires. "IF" it arrived as described (This one "Did") I would not expect him to take it back, because I changed my mind.

Hint>>>>check definition of crotchety and add ole' to it.

More good comments from Jagermeister and 2-piper. And they make some good points here guys. AND we are still waiting to hear from Joe about his reply to luckydog. So, please joe, give us your thoughts...............Denny Crane, self appointed narrator and chief instigator.

Oh come now, he is not trying to return std. Remington 700 BDL because it arrived in kal. 7,62x63mm as advertised. I'm sure you're aware of the fact that not all basic Ignacio Ugartechea A&D guns with similar parameters were not created equal.

You're the one said he was "old and crotchety"....not me or Denny Crane

Amen....pass the plate Denny.

I respectfully disagree. "As advertised" has literally nothing to do with a 3 day inspection period. Nothing at all.
Legg is a "dealer" because he routinely trades guns whether he has an FFL or not. He is clearly trying to extract the benefits of being a dealer without the responsibility of being a dealer, i.e. that an unscrupulous individual. Let me explain...
The purpose of a 3 day inspection, is to get the gun in your hands. If it doesn't feel right, or if it didn't look like you thought it did, or whatever...send the gun back. All guns look good in photos. The 3 day inspection period is to replace the classic notion of walking into a gun shop, picking up the gun and deciding whether or not to buy it. Because you picked it up and it was "as described" does not obligate you to buy the gun...anymore than shipping it does. The internet allows dealers to broaden their audience and customer base.... NOT TO rip off unsuspecting buyers. Agreement by a buyer to pay for shipping and insurance is part of that construct and makes the whole process work. The quid pro quo for the dealer is to operate as if the customer were physically standing in his shop.
This concept could not be simpler.
I repeat...Legg is a dealer. The reason trading guns over he internet works at all is because of this industry standard. If we didn't have 3 day inspections (or however many days), the only place guns would trade would be in the gun shops themselves physically and not on the internet. I repeat again...Legg is a dealer...not an individual trying to foist off some crappy spanish gun. Although this standard should hold true for everyone, this is an important distinction.

According to those who think a 3 day inspection return is unconditional as long as the buyer pays the shipping both ways, I ask this question; why should I pay shipping EITHER way when a seller does not disclose damage, defects, or misquotes dimensions, etc.? If that's the way the three day inspection works, it means nothing. Why should I pay $50 to $100 to look at a gun that I know I wouldn't buy if I really knew what it was?

Agreed, Since I am not able to hold it in my hands before the purchase a 3 day inspection means that I can return it for any reason in the same condition as recieved.

According to those who think a 3 day inspection return is unconditional as long as the buyer pays the shipping both ways, I ask this question; why should I pay shipping EITHER way when a seller does not disclose damage, defects, or misquotes dimensions, etc.? If that's the way the three day inspection works, it means nothing. Why should I pay $50 to $100 to look at a gun that I know I wouldn't buy if I really knew what it was?

The answer is ...you wouldn't. It is a good point, but a different isue. That is where "as described" comes in. You would still get to return it. The dispute over shipping would be that you received something that you didn't ask for.

Wow!! We finally reached 20 pages. I never dreamed we would make it this far. But then again, I have the Mad Cow Disease, too. So, lets keep it up with the comments. Don't hide your feelings inside. Let them all out. You'll feel so much better........Denny Crane, self appointed narrator and chief instigator

I don't have time to read all 20 pages, so I appologize if this has been said before: Of all of the retail dealers that I buy from, all have an, "All firearms sales final" policy. You can't return a gun just because you've changed your mind. If Jim were under obligation to have an all inclusive 3-day return policy by Gun Broker, then he would be obligated to do so. Otherwise the seller sets the return policy. I my business I have a limited return policy because returns screw up our inventory and cause strained relations with our vendors with so many returns. One should have their ducks in a row before ordering IMHO.

Read this whole thread twice. Came to a coupla conclusions:
Jim should have accepted the gun back, and refunded the guy the
money. Then JIM should have started a thread titled: " Beware of
Eley22. Danger! The second conclusion???? Totally dismiss any
posts, from Homeless.......... Grant.

Standing in a gunshop, yes. The buyer looks over the gun, says "Yeah, I like this one, I'll take it", pays the shop and takes it home. Offer, acceptance plus consideration equals contract. It's the same over the internet, except the contract has to be completed a little differently...because the buyer hasn't seen the gun yet. There is no contract until the buyer accepts - "Yeah, I like this one, I'll take it" - and unless he has infallible ESP, it's perfectly impossible for him to do that until he has the gun in his hands. He ALREADY KNOWS that the gun will arrive in "as advertised" condition - that's assumed. The buyer has a right to so assume because it's the seller's representation. If the seller is a liar, that's a different issue that automatically prevents acceptance of the offer and completion of the contract, but that certainly isn't the primary reason for the requirement of an inspection period.



The inspection period is there so that the buyer CAN make up his mind. The facile suggestion that the purpose is only to determine if the seller lied or not is utterly baseless, and certainly does not represent the market standard. An internet seller with an "if it arrives as described, it's yoah's, bubba" policy is looking for a "gotcha", and should be meticulously avoided.

Maybe the bids should be separated by fifty bucks instead of five bucks above a certain bid amount on Gunbroker. That way, a "no questions asked" return can include a fifty dollar restocking fee. The refund on an "as advertised" return can be the previous bid plus shipping. There should be some cost to a buyer who is an idiot. Many times a shipping cost would keep me from returning a gun, but an added fifty bucks would add to the decision making process.

How many have seen a good looking gun in the rack at a dealer's shop but when you picked it up and mounted it, it just didn't "feel" right? We have discussions about this kind of thing all the time and some have even done scientific research on that phenomenon. I'm thinking a 3 day inspection period covers exactly this kind of thing and if it doesn't, it should be stated. Most wouldn't buy from a seller who stated such a ridiculous policy.

I agree with VRS that Legg has done himself far more damage by being such a hard head than by showing a little understanding and beng willing to adapt to the situation. Do unto others........Mr. Legg.

Denny anyone ever tell you you're a trouble maker.....

We should have 20 pages about the 'soul' of the American pump shotgun not this crap!!!
Let those two fight it out themselves, the way it should have been handled in the first place!!!
The movie, The Long Riders,
Scene where Bell Starr's husband fights Cole Younger, big mistake!!!... "face to face...man to man"!!
enuf already!!

Dear Jim, I can't fault you for the way you handled this transaction. Others have given their opinion and some are quite compelling, (i.e. 400 Nitro Express). However, it's your sale and you make the rules. I get ding-dongs in my shop from time to time that want me to do things for them that are not just above and beyond, but in freakin' lunar orbit. case in point, a guy comes in and said, I bought this stuff from you 2 years ago, I just cleaned out my garage, I want credit. Or, "I know you closed 1/2 hours ago, but you should wait on me, cause I tell my employees to wait on everybody, even if they are there until 2a.m. Point is, in business, you alone make the rules,you can't let people dictate to you what you policy is to. If you are under obligation from GB to abide by a certain definition of a 3-day return policy, then you must do it. If not, Your stance will keep the boneheads away.

Ok, You all got me to log in and post. 1st Homeless yahoo, GO AWAY you are anoying (but you know that and that is your goal)Now to the subject at hand, I dont know Mr Legg or the other guy who started this mess but...dont buy it if you dont want it and you should be able to return it if (and only if) it is not as represented. For you who feel different i need to buy a gun from you for a duck hunting trip, I will return it in 3 days for a full refund minus shipping, OK with you?
Get a life all.

God knows and Jim is still going to heaven so who care about this whole thing anymore. Those that have purchased from Jim in the past here still will and if the rest don't its Jims gain as most arrear to be no win buyers for sellers.

OK. I just had to post again. Jim, you are RIGHT by not returning the money. I have sold a few guns on the net and I will not do it again because of people like this idiot that you had to deal with. They are a BIG waste of time and money. I have a large collection of very nice guns and when I sell them, I will go to a large auction house. Let whoever buys them pay that price and I don't have to deal with people that Jim has.

P.S. HAS HOPELESS JOE EVER HAD ANYTHING TO SAY THAT IS WORTH ANYTHING. I WOULD SAY "GET A LIFE" BUT I SEE THIS IS YOUR LIFE. WHAT A PITY.

Now you two bo-zOs want to attack me....

Quite a life you two have nothing better to do than read all this....

Fellers I'm not the guy that sold a man a gun with a written 3 day inspection and then refused to stand good on my word.

There are many guys here, HJ, who believe you are taking too much pleasure from this topic. Your behavior is unseemly.

That sums it up the best.The 3 day inspection period is there to sell guns to people who would not buy them over the internet.I would bet many of us have looked at gun on the rack and thought hmmm this sounds great,picked it up and put it right down as it did not have the balance feel,swing or whatever.Same with suits,women and cars.Some things need to be tried on before you buy them.

Here's a hypothetical. I list a "vintage" gun with a sizable amount of drop to the comb (say 3" at heel). Should I anticipate that many in the potential pool of buyers are only vaguely aware of "contemporary" models/brands which have provided them with an off the rack "fit" and without a clue as to the dimensional bill of particulars which describes their ideal fit? If I get a bidder query from someone who describes himself as a "first-time buyer" with a "hankerin to buy hisself an old doublegun" and has a hundred questions concerning the precedural details of buying and shipping but thinks the gun is exactly what he "wants", should I attempt to gently educate and risk loosing his bid. I think so as it sure ain't going to "feel right" (what he's accustomed to) when he receives it.

How far does my obligation to educate extend? Can I ever assume that those who talk the talk like polished cognoscenti actually may be big enuf men to gamble on their own judgment and expertise without resort to the "woman's prerogative". I hope so because I can't help but think that a market with unqualified right of return would die on the vine.

Could I sell small engines with an ad that says the one you get will have something around 3 to 8HP and some sort of starter and one of ten bolt patterns for mounting and there's really no point to specifications as you have a right to return for any reason or none so you're bound to get the right one eventually and I just love to ship things and see them come back like carrier pigeons? Description of condition and specification is an abstract of the gun itself. May be accurate or may not and "right of return if not as described" covers that possibility. If you must buy on approval, I suggest that postage stamps and coins may offer a better outlet for your time and money.

jack

I agree GZ- I don't know Mr. Legg from "Adam's Off Ox" and have no present plans to sell any firearms on the Internet-due to the hazards of inspection/description/return outlined in this thread, ditto the one on Cashier's Checks and the counterfeiting extant- I own guns that I inherited, bought privately; from local dealers and at area gun shows- so inspection was not a problem- The only dealer I dealt with, years ago, was Bill Jaqua (pronounced Jake Way) in Findlay Oh- at the Grand in Vandalia- I still see his ads in GUN DIGEST- believe he is retired, but Bill set a high standard for honest dealing, as has Felix Bedlan, Jack Puglisi, Thad Scott, John Allen and Stephen Cobb, among many others (and for those reputable dealers I ommitted-my apologies)! Bill had a three day no questions asked return on shipped guns-he started in the gun business in 1948 as an adjunct to this downtown Sporting Goods store in Findlay (Rawlings, Spaulding, Wilson, Acushnet etc back then) and I am sure has encountered such a situation as described herein- My question is- why spend the money (the cost to insure funds) and pay shipping if you are not 90% sure you are going to keep the gun!I'll give a dealer a reasonable profit- but to enrich the UPS/USPS?Fed Ex boys- well that's a horse of another color.

If you don't like some posters, just use your IGNORE button. It has worked great for me.

I'm taking pleasure from this topic!
Jim Legg has hit the ignore button on me for something I may, or may not of said somewhere in the distant past. He took pleasure in announcing his use of the ignore feature for all to read.
Fairplay, is fairplay Jimbo - I make no bones about it!

IM,

This thread alone has added another three names to my ignore list.

Destry

Jim trashed me to no end and yes I take pleasure in seeing the horse for what color it really iz....

What say Denny Crane ?

Destry, don't do that, it looses its entertainment value then.

Tim

j0e, seems like you can't be honest around here!

Them Parker bOys are just too up-tight...

I reviewed the Gunbrokers Users Agreement which both buyer and seller agree to when they sign up as users and here's what it states:

"Item is guaranteed to be working and as described when delivered; no other warranty (express or implied) is offered by seller. "

As far as I can see the buyer has 3 days or 5 days or whatever time is offered by the seller to determine if what he purchasd meets the above criteria and that's it.
Jim

Conejo, you have done it again!

I couldn't but imagine a flock of winged Briggs-Stratons of various HPs making their last descent to roost in your aviary. :-)

Great way to make a very valid point.

JC

Me too Imp. Mod. Great idea- thanks Dave for including it!!

Italianguy, the deal took place off of gunbroker. No gunbroker rules apply. Jim made a promise by email, decided he was dealing with an idiot, decided not to honor his promise. When I make a deal with an idiot, not knowing he is an idiot, all bets are off if I think he won't sue me. When a person turns into an idiot (or a woman) after I try to deal with him in good faith, I will do what I have to do to remain whole after the deal is over. As I said in a previous post, I don't think there is much chance of that gun coming back in the same condition in which it was sent. OK, so most of us don't like Jim. I still think he did what he had to do.

I bought a scope from Jim once. He said it was a 2x7 Leupold.
It was. I kept the scope. Now I 'spose if I changed my mind,
and decided I wanted a 3x12 Burris, I guess Jim should have taken back the Leupold.......Huh?
And I would buy again from Mr. Legg. If only because of Homeless's mouth............. Grant.

I like him


Even if he is a cantankerous old fart....

To all those who think that a gun purchased long distance by website, email, phone or mail order should have an uncondtitional inspection period just to make up your mind if you really want it in the first place, you should only shop locally where you can handle the gun and make up your mind before you pay for it. Internet shopping was never designed to mimic this experience.

What the heck does that have to do with anything? I don't even know Jim. Point of fact: all you have to do is say "no returns" and this argument never consumes 20+ pages of this venerable board.

'No returns' = NO SALE

I'd rather have that than a "3 day inspection" that's not worth the time it took to type it.

OK, so just make like you'll take returns and then decide not to if you don't think the buyer's "reason" is sufficient...Geo

The thing is, for instance, you THINK, that you want this gun, and then you order it. The gun shows up and you notice the short barrels make it more whipy than you would have expected. Should you have to keep the gun? I don't think so.

If everyone took that mentality of shopping locally it sure wouldn't do US any good. We might as well send everyone to Cabelas. To buy and sell on the net, the 3 day inspection with no questions asked is simply a conerstone for us. It is that simple.

Re: BEWARE of JAGERMEISTER.DANGER!.....No thanks!

Isn't that what happened on page one of this thread.

Ok eightbore I see your point. I really did this to show what the policy is inre. to returns from the Gunbrokers point of view and what's published there.
I think most of the members here have learned enough from this thread to ask that return priveleges be spelled out before making any kind of committment.
As far as the gun coming back in the same condition as it was sent there's no reason the seller would have to refund the money before receiving the gun and ensuring it hadn't been messed with.
Jim

In that case go to Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro, and as many independent stores first to decide first on the specifics that you want. Then go to the net to find and purchase.

Book lovers brouse book stores first for titles they don't have and then go to Amazon.com to purchase.

A-A-A-A-H-H-H--H-H-H-H-H!! Denny Crane wakes up after his daily routine of watching Regis and Kelly, Ellen, all the court shows and then laying down for his six hour afternoon nap. He had a dream that people were calling him by another name. Waking up he goes over to the computer, knowing he will be totally heartbroken when he finds all the fighting, whining, blubbering and belly aching on the DGJ board will be over and he is wondering what he will do with his sorry, useless life for entertainment only to find four more pages of spewing insults and hate which now totals twenty four pages of glorious spittle!! He wonders how much farther this will go on because he can't believe that people would continue with all this, but on the other hand he finds it so amusing that he decides not to say anything and he will only sit back, try to remember his real name which he has totally forgotten because of his lingering bout with Mad Cow Disease and watch what happens next, hoping that there will be a few more opinions cast...............Denny Crane, self appointed narrator, chief instigator and (newly crowned) first class prick.

You're not that bad a guy Denny.

I remember my first mail order bride. The add said built like a brick shite house,I had to send her back as I like them rail skinny,she was great to look at for three days.

The comment I made, "so most of us don't like Jim" was made tongue in cheek to illustrate that some posters made their decision on this case based on their take on Jim Legg, not on the evidence. I don't know Jim, don't have an opinion on Jim. However, like I said, I think Jim did what he had to do because he knew he was dealing with an idiot. If the gun came back with scratches, he would have adjusted the refund and the battle would have been even worse than it is now.

JAP- as in the little yellow gents who caught us with "dropped trou" in Dec. 1941- Oh Vey already my bog-trottin' Mick adversary from MD.

Linea del fuego I comprehendo amigo- line of fire- I assume WTF means "Wade Through (the) Fudge" of course- and nothing to do with the olde "Once a King, always a King, but once a Knight is enough"!!

Amen to that DRM- in spades- why add to the profits of UPS etc-I prefer gun shows where I know the dealers or private sales locally-the internet is a fine thing I suppose- but like anything new, it also spawns a new era of thieves and crooks- Some of the other double gun assns. (with a annual membership) wisely forbid gun sales through their websites- certain parts and accessories (gun cases, etc.) are permitted and I think they eliminate all this rancor and bitterness- and if the "idiot" that maligned Mr. Legg did indeed try to circumvent the Gun Broker process, and beat down Mr. Legg's price buy some "localized shopping" then he is a cheapskate- as we say in table stakes poker- "If you can't afford to play at the big table (and possibly lose) then don't sit down"!! RWTF

This is getting offensive to people not at all involved in the deal. I questioned 8bores original comment but let it pass. Perhaps it's time to close the thread when these type of remarks surface.

You guys often pine away about how you miss Oscar, Bill Wise and the others. Would they make a remark like that? You guys should be ashamed.

Bravo, Rob! Seems as if these long, long threads eventually degenerate into garbage - some posters get there sooner or later, and one or two even start out that way.

I thought my description of the buyer as an idiot would get more comment than my use of the lighthearted acronym JAP. You guys need to get a life. Unfortunately, our favorite troll had to go back 15 pages to research my use of the J-Bomb. I think we have effectively killed this thread, for all the wrong reasons. Don't misjudge Owleye, he would have smiled.

So- "tongue in cheek" hey Billy Boyo- almost like "foot in mouth". I haven't put your Eight-Bore posts in my ignore sector on this site, as like all hot-headed Irish lads, I enjoy a good brawl-sorta keeps the dust from a settlin- and as this is an open forum (no paid membership) that old free speech First Amendment just keeps a rollin' on, don't it? Of course, free speech doesn't give us the "right" to yell out "Fire" in a crowded theatre-but I will apologize (somewhat) to any of the members of this site who profess the Jewish Faith if the JAP interpretation of old Bro' Murphy's comments and use of that anagram was offensive-not meant that way- any more than the cult "Dumb Blonde Jokes" or the infamous "Polack" jokes-or the Catholic jokes I like to share-and as I am a Green Irish Catholic lad (with a Chechoslovakian past) I'll strike one for that team with this "Didja hear about the IRA terrorist in Belfast, tried to blow up a Brit's car- got his lips severly burned on the tailpipe however"!! To me. a sense of humor is best when you can tell jokes on your own group-and share the laughter- Now Billy Boyo- glad to know I be your favorite Troll- my granddaughter loves that story of the 3 Billy Goats Gruff-and you are only half right about my being "shunned" by the elitist Professional Golfers Caddy Assn. (guess I wouldn't show fotos and serial numbers of my inherited Walter Hagen Haig Ultra clubs) but I am still allowed to answer PM's- Thanks to the only Gent I presently know of on that site- the Stutz Bearcat collector in Lowell-Andover area- one of the few extant that tries to see the good in others and overlook their flaws (we all have them- even Market Hunter, who resembles Hal- Nash's old hunting pal)I am trying to find a way to learn from your great knowledge of firearms there Bill-and you certainly have knowledge and experience-if I can overlook your flaws, why can't you extend the same to me-what the hay- we both don't like Homeless Joseph much- that's a start!!

What do a hooker, a virgin and a JAP say after sex?
1. The hooker, THATS ALL!
2. The virgin THATS ALL?
3. The JAP ........... Beige, I think I'll paint the ceiling beige.

Price of gun: $1350... price of team of lawyers to define "3 day inspection", $5000.00. Reading this thread has been like grading an I.Q. test. Some can read and some cannot. If I ever sell a gun online, I suppose I will have to spend a lot more time defining the terms than describing the gun. Does 3 day inspection mean you have 3 days to inspect it and that's all? No returns or complaints for any reason qualify for a return, because all that was promised was 3 days to inspect? Perhaps the buyer would have been better off to shoot the gun until he missed something, as the GB description said all the misses were shot out of it. Too many here are looking for a loophole when there is none. I suppose the same folks beleive that Slick Willie "did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky", and can also accept that the Second Amendment only applies to flintlock muskets.

Mr Legg: qualify your return policy so future buyers understand what it covers. This guy obviously wasn't aware of the conditions you had in place. $1,300 is an expensive misunderstanding even if he exercised poor judgement in buying a gun with shorter barrels than actually desired. Don't care much for 22's slanderous approach however.

Fox & Tyler: take racist crap to some hate site.

RWTF the WTF is kinda like FTW some bikers wear,feel the wind. After Nam knew lots of Army guys that wore FTA tee shirts even though they had no intention of being Future Teachers of America

Kilibru, their comments aren't racist. You should hear what the Japanese say about you and the Koreans. Believe me I know I was in Japan for two years. These jokes are mear child's play.

Ah the kinda gentaler world where everyone has rights but the American Christian White Man. I claim the part Blackfoot on my moms side and say what I want but then again belittle no one.I think the Indians once called us Japs,Just another pilgram.

it wouldn't matter. 3/4 of the people on gunbroker can't read. or won't. my favorite e.g. of such is an FN auto-5 20 gauge magnum barrel. total moron bids it up in the stratosphere, wins, then emails "I SO SORRY I THOUGHT I BIDDING ON GUN I CAN'T PAY PLEASE FORGIVE" (literally that, except i corrected the spelling on all those complex two-syllable words). nothing in the 4 photos but a barrel, nothing described but a barrel. you cannot idiot-proof a gunbroker ad.

roger

same line, i always put in my ads that the "winners ffl holder must be OK accepting shipments from individuals. please check in advance. no exceptions." in all caps yet. i'm running 75% compliance. back to that whole being able to read thing.

roger

Too many people use being Irish - or some watered-down version of same - as an excuse. But I don't believe all Irish behave badly. Why, one of my best friends is an Irishman...

FWTR, I thought the WTF was good ole Anglo-Saxon rather than euphemismo, but you've got it from Wilhelm that it's something from a do-rag backawards, so WTF, HR, ONF.

jack

Whorship thy Father

Enough...