doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 11:59 AM
I did my first a couple weeks ago, not having any prior instruction. It came out okay for a field grade gun that's going to get a fair amount of hard usage. I faced a Silvers pad that I put on a little 20 ga. Sterlingworth. Looking around for some thin leather in my shop all I found was some scraps from Grandaddy's old leather hunting coat. I was given it by my Grandmother after he died in '75, and it eventually fell to pieces, but I salvaged some of the leather. Very old and wrinkled, dried out .....not the best condition for this application. But, I used it with a nod to nostalgia, knowing that when hunting birds here with the little gun I'd have something with me as a tangible reminder of him, and his taking me on my first quail hunt. Actually, he had told me it was the coat that he wore when drifting the river for ducks on the coldest of days. The leather is probably a little too thick, and deteriorating to the point that the cut edges look a little "ragged".

So, now I'd like to learn the right way to do it, with the right kind of leather, and the right glue. Can anyone point me towards some written instructions? I searched and all I can come up with is leather covered pad tutorials. Do any of the gunsmithing/custom gunbuilding books give it any more than a passing mention?

Thanks in advance, SRH
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 12:43 PM
chapter 11 of shotgun technicana
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 12:58 PM
There have been several good threads here on Doublegun that have pretty good instruction.

The best instructional video I have seen is this one


I have a couple of pads on hand and a skiving tool on the way to do this with a couple of my guns in the next month.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 01:10 PM
I'm waiting for Trevallion's new edition of Shotgun Technicana, as I don't have a copy. But, thanks for the heads up.

Just so there's no further misunderstanding, I'm interested in help with FACING a recoil pad with leather ........ not the same as a leather COVERED pad.

SRH
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 01:43 PM
by facing, do you mean leather only on the end of the pad?
Posted By: SKB Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 03:10 PM
I have only come across a couple leather faced pads in my life, a fairly rare way to treat a butt in my mind. I have not installed one myself but on the ones I have seen the leather seemed quite similar to what I use on leather covered pads, 1&1/2 to 2OZ top grain pigskin:

https://www.zackwhite.com/Full-Grain-Pigskin-Lining

I would use the same glue I use for covered pads, barge cement:

https://www.myshoesupplies.com/prod...Qr6et7gIVjb3ACh0RyAV3EAQYFSABEgI_q_D_BwE

Keep us informed as to what you decide and how it works out.

Steve
Posted By: Kutter Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 10:04 PM
I've used both Kangaroo and Hairsheep (a cross breed of a domestic sheep I'm told) leather for leather covered pads.

I've always acquired it from Columbia Organ Leathers in PA.

They supply the stuff mainly for the restoration of the musical instrument(s).

They can supply it in various thickness all the way down to .008/.010 with some of the same offerings up to .025.
Other types go thicker and up into the .035 to .050 range.

Some are white color, but there are also brown, black and maroon.

The Kangaroo leather is quite something to work with. Sometimes you don't even need to soak the leather in water to get it to stretch over the pad and get the wrinkles out.

Some States ban the import to their State of Kangaroo leather in any form,,rough leather or in the form of completed clothing or foot wear.
So don't be surprised if that becomes an issue.

website:
www.columbiaorgan.com/columbia-leather-home/products/leather-skins/
Posted By: bbman3 Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 10:38 PM
Stan i use Barge glue from Ace Hardware to leather face pads. Bobby
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/21/21 11:15 PM
I understand that not many have actually seen them, but may I once again state ......... I'm not talking about leather covered pads. I'm talking about Silvers type pads that are faced with leather........on the back .........where it contacts the shoulder ........not the sides. Graded Fox guns were done this way, at the owners request, when ordered. It is a classy way of facing the contact surface of a recoil pad.

Thanks, Bobby. I may give you a call and talk about it one evening soon.

For those of you that may be interested in learning that there are other ways to apply leather to a pad than completely covering it, here's a link:

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/sear...&sr=posts&keywords=leather+faced

Thanks for the help from all. SRH
Posted By: battle Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 12:31 AM
I knew what you meant Stan.

Love to see the grandad pad you did.
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by battle
I knew what you meant Stan.

I did too after the first clarification-- or at least that it wasn't the same thing as a covered pad. I thought in your initial post that you were looking for a printed resource instead of an online tutorial.

Incidentally, I think Shotgun Technicana only shows leather covering procedure, not facing.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 02:16 AM
I'm more concerned with how the edge of the leather presents than any other aspect. Having never seen a pristine original example I am only going on abject thought. But, having seen how my first attempt came out I would think that a "crimped" edge, as opposed to a cut edge, would present much better. Are there any leather working tools that cut with something like opposing cutter wheels, or even something like a pipe cutter that has a cutter wheel pressing against a flat wheel?

This idea is kinda hard to put into words, but I can see it in my head. Does anyone understand what I'm talking about?
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 02:21 AM
I'm thinking your primarily having trouble with the raw looking edge of the cut leather.

Depending on how thick the leather is (no reason to use super thin leather I would think) you could burnish the edge like you would on a knife sheath. that would probably give a clean edge, regardless of how you cut it


Would an edge like this be better than what you currently have? (obviously with one layer instead of 3)
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Woodreaux
Would an edge like this be better than what you currently have? (obviously with one layer instead of 3)

Probably, but how would you burnish the edge of a piece of leather as thin as we're talking about? A crimped edge would eliminate having to burnish it, if that's possible.

SRH
Posted By: mc Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 03:21 AM
I have a 1926 lc smith lw with a leather faced pad don't know if it is factory or not
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 01:18 PM
You could cut it with a cutting wheel that is used to cut material for sewing (and paper patches for shooting). For sale and any fabric shop or Walmart. It will cut like you want, but won't make much difference.

You could try to burnish the edge, but if will probably be too thin to do much.

There are also leather edge skiving tools that are easily found for rolling an edge. That may be more useful.

I would probably use 3M's Super 77 spray adhesive for this instead of barge cement. A bit easier to get a nice cleanly adhered edge without any runover of glue.
Posted By: battle Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 01:30 PM
I'd check with a leather shop. Bet they'd have your answer.
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 02:38 PM
if you're facing it, why would the leather need to be super thin? couldn't you use a little thicker leather (3-4oz maybe), glue it on, trim and sand the edge to a perfect fit, then burnish the edge to finish it? The picture you linked to looked like the leather was substantially thicker than what most people use for covering.

I'd be willing to bet that's part of the reason they were faced on the first place. heck of a lot easier to glue leather to one face than it is to wrap it around curves, and covers the screw holes without plugs too since it's applied after the pad is in place.

if you want the edge of the leather to roll down onto the pad so that there is no exposed edge, I think you'll want to use a skiving knife the taper (or skive I guess) the edge and allow the rough side to tuck under. That's how they do high end leather seems and edges that would be too thick otherwise
Posted By: Mark II Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/22/21 03:29 PM
I think if you cut your leather to the shape of the pad. Then mark a line parallel to the edge on the back side and skive from that line to the edge. When you glue the cover on use a smooth wooden handle to push that edge down so it virtually disappears.
Posted By: Brittany Man Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/23/21 12:21 AM
s
Originally Posted by Mark II
I think if you cut your leather to the shape of the pad. Then mark a line parallel to the edge on the back side and skive from that line to the edge. When you glue the cover on use a smooth wooden handle to push that edge down so it virtually disappears.
Mark II has the concept.

The only decent looking leather faced pads I have seen were either done with very thin leather or had the edges skivied extremely thin. Winchester offered leather facing on pads that had faces square to the pad (like SW Silvers pads before they were ground). If you wanted a pad with rounded edges the leather was pulled down to approximately 1/16 " above the base of the pad but did not tuck under the pad as is commonly seen on British guns

As to glue, a friend of mine was shooting a CSMC 21 with the Winchester style rounded edge leather faced pad (installed by CSMC) @ the Metford WI SxS shoot on a rainy day & leather facing came off on the third station. It looked like the leather facing was installed with a white glue like Elmer's. If I was going to do a leather faced pad I would use Barges or the original non VOC version of Plio Bond contact cement.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/23/21 01:17 AM
What do y'all mean exactly by skiving the edge? The only reference i have to skiving is with shotgun hulls, where the edge of a square cut hull is "ground" off thinner so that it crimps better. But, I can't picture how that would be done to a thin piece of leather. Is there a certain leather working tool that will do what Mark II describes, because he has understood exactly what I was trying to convey?

SRH
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/23/21 02:57 AM
It is like skiving a hull but done with a blade, not abrasive. You can see it being done to a whole piece of leather for a covered pad in that video I posted. Imagine the same thing done on an angle just around the edge about 1/4' WIDE OR SO. It might be called "feathering" but skiving is the proper term.
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/23/21 11:21 AM
[video:youtube]
[/video]


for what you're trying to do, it's basically a tapered edge. could be done with a sharp chisel, but there are several kinds of skiving tools, including bookbinders skives for thinning the entire piece of leather
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/23/21 01:25 PM
Thanks so much for the video links. Watched them and found them both extremely helpful. The one you posted, Jim, covers what I need to learn to do, in order to have the edges of the leather facing dressed nicely. Time to shop for some good leather and skiving tools, now. The Cole video should be a "must watch" for anyone interested in learning to cover pads with leather. He's very clear and definitive, and funny at the same time.

I'll take a pic of the "Grandad Pad" I did, battle, to show how badly one can look without the skiving of the edge. Maybe I can get it on here tonight.



Best, SRH
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 01:58 AM
The stock wood on this gun has been stripped with acetone wiping, so it looks rather dull. But, maybe you can see how unfinished an unskived piece of leather looks on the edge.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Second pic, the distressed wrinkling of the leather from Grandad's old duck hunting coat.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Looking forward to doing better next try.

SRH
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 04:51 PM
Just for curiosity's sake, why the facing instead of an entire cover job? Is there some advantage?
Posted By: battle Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 05:30 PM
Stan... why do you need to skive the leather? What’s wrong with having the leather the same thickness across the entire face of the pad? Thanks for the pic. I’d do the same as you did on that one, but with a piece of leather that doesn’t have that much wrinkles.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by BrentD
Just for curiosity's sake, why the facing instead of an entire cover job? Is there some advantage?

It's mostly a personal preference. Foxes were supplied like this from the factory, on request, as I said earlier. While I might not balk at having a leather covered pad on an XE, or FE, I wouldn't want one on a Sterlingworth, which is what this gun is, unless it was a custom gun based on a Sterlingworth.

I have a few guns I'd enjoy a leather covered pad on, but want to take baby steps before I try to run. I believe learning to properly leather face a pad is going to have a much shorter learning curve than learning to do a complete leather covered pad well.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by battle
Stan... why do you need to skive the leather? What’s wrong with having the leather the same thickness across the entire face of the pad? Thanks for the pic. I’d do the same as you did on that one, but with a piece of leather that doesn’t have that much wrinkles.

I just think the edge of the leather will have a much nicer, and finished, look if skived.

All the leather on Grandad's old duck coat was wrinkled like that. It doesn't bother me on that Sterly, especially knowing it's past. Next attempt will be with some really nice goatskin leather.

SRH
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 07:48 PM
I think folding the skived edge under without puckering and while following the exact edge of the pad will be every bit as challenging as a full cover and maybe more. It will be interesting to see.
Posted By: Woodreaux Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 08:17 PM
I agree with both sentiments: using a gun-appropriate technique would appeal to me, regardless of whether it's easier, better, etc. So I would probably try to face a pad for a gun that a faced pad would be 'correct'

Also, I agree that covering would probably be almost as easy as facing, especially if you skive the edge, which will take some tools, skills and practice. Having covered one pad, I would say that it's fairly straightforward and doable for a relative novice (like me).
Posted By: battle Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by BrentD
I think folding the skived edge under without puckering and while following the exact edge of the pad will be every bit as challenging as a full cover and maybe more. It will be interesting to see.


Why would he need to fold the skived leather? And fold under what?
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 09:42 PM
I've no intention of folding the edge. They weren't done that way, as far as I've been able to determine from pictures of originals.

My goal with the skiving will be to end up with a thinner edge, which will look much more finished.

SRH
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/24/21 10:46 PM
If you are not going to fold under, then I would burnish before skiving. Anything to keep fibers and roughness developing from wear.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/25/21 12:32 AM
If Barge cement is the recommended adhesive for this, wonder why Cole uses contact cement? I'm thinking that contact cement may be better for facing a pad, too, because it dries before you put the leather in place and there would be little to no glue line. It is so important to get the edge glued well. If you put enough glue like Barge, or Duco, to be sure the edge is glued secure you will see a glue line.

I think it's going to take a good bit of experimenting to come up with the best solutions for leather, glue and edge treatment.

SRH
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/25/21 01:46 AM
Stan that's why I would use the 3M Super77

Contact cement, like Barge (which is simply a well known version of contact cement) is usually applied to both surfaces, allowed to skin and then compressed together. I think that will be a little tricky for this application, although you have a well defined edge to your pad which will help.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/26/21 11:33 AM
That Super 77 does say it has a transparency when dry, but I don't see it available in anything other than aerosol I couldn't seem to find it available in any other application methods. Overspray could be an issue with aerosol.

SRH
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/26/21 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Stanton Hillis
That Super 77 does say it has a transparency when dry, but I don't see it available in anything other than aerosol I couldn't seem to find it available in any other application methods. Overspray could be an issue with aerosol.

SRH



Well, the finished leather is easy enough to spray before you mount it. If you are going to spray the pad, then blue tape is your friend.
Posted By: Dennis Potter Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/27/21 03:00 AM
I have leather faced quite a few pads, and pretty much all of my own guns have a leather faced pad. I mostly use pigskin, but any thin leather should work; I don't think it has to be super thin, my pig is about probably .025 - .030 or so. You need to sand off any markings on the pad and I think you need to round slightly the edges of the pad, so there is no proud edge to catch. Sanding , or wiping to get the mold release off gives good adhesion. I just use Barge and apply it liberally to both pad face and the oversize leather, soak it in well, kind of saturating the leather, let it dry a bit and apply it, pound around the leather with your leather mallet. When dry use a sharp! exactor knife or such to carefully cut the leather around the pad, keeping the knife pretty much parallel to the side of the pad. You can use 120 grit sharp paper to carefully sand the edge, and If you have stained your leather, you need to re-stain the cut edges, You can use an acrylic finish (Tandy's) if you wish or just finish like you shine your shoes. Maintenance is more shoe polish. I have never had one of my own come loose, and don't hesitate to put the gun in a snow covered gunrack. Works just as well as fully leather covered, but much less work, but lacking the "cool" factor, of course.
Some good-looking pads shown here.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 01/27/21 12:25 PM
I appreciate very much you sharing your insight and experience, Dennis. I may be overthinking the whole affair, fretting too much over how the edge looks. Having never seen an original in person I was in the dark about how the edge should be finished. I trust your judgement. And, I kinda think a higher quality piece of pigskin will result in a nicer edge than the leather from Grandad's old duck hunting coat did.

My 20 Sterly Ejector, with the "Grandad pad", will be riding in the upright rack again tomorrow afternoon on the quail rig, albeit without the snow. smile And, when the 16 ga. AE gets home from Dewey's it will get a leather facing on it's pad, too. I love the looks of them, and the practicality.

Thanks again, Dennis
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 02/07/21 05:32 PM
I might suggest less time wasted on the internet Stanley....this forum that forum you sure get around girl friend
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 02/08/21 12:02 PM
laugh laugh laugh

In your efforts to not catch CV19 you must have contracted hoof(foot) in mouth disease.

Talk a little louder. I can't hear what you're saying for all the scuffle caused by what you're doing.

Hint: Who's got the highest post count here? But, maybe you've figured a way to do that without logging on the internet.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 02/08/21 02:27 PM
Lol...you forum hOe you.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 02/21/21 02:52 PM
Stanley I gave you a like can you feel it brother....
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 02/21/21 11:59 PM
Do I!!!



grin
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Leather facing a recoil pad - 03/08/21 12:58 PM
For anyone who would like to see a couple pics of an original leather faced recoil pad see DGJ issue Autimn 2015, in an article on a XE Fox by Steve Cambria. Just accidentally stumbled onto it this morning.
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com