I have a few break top projects, both single and sxs, that are rattle traps. I have seen videos of how the hook, rear of the barrels, and bolt require attention for repairs. Is there a sequence to inspect and or repair that should be followed to insure a complete repair is accomplished. And what gap measurements should an inspection include for barrels that are off-face or loose at the water table. Any other input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Scott

if lower value guns try some shim stock [feeler gage strips] wrapped around the hinge pin.....wrap the shim around a nail....to get it tightly round then snap it on the pin....that should do it....

Some say a shim cut from a beer can works.

Gunut/Joe-I appreciate the input for shimming the barrel hook to tighten the barrels.

As a gunsmith enthusiast would barrel movement from forward to back mean the barrels are off face (needing shimmed or rejoined) and movement up and down would be pertain to the lock-up or bite of the action? So the bite would need attention and if so how would this be done?

About the only ways I know to repair a worn bolt is to either have a new bolt made and fitted or to weld up the old bolt and refit it. Shims just don't work on bolts.

Mr. Wood, I don't doubt what you posted, but I've always had my off face guns repaired by shimming or welding the hook. Is there any reason that should not work?...Geo

If the bolt lug interface is worn enough you can have what you think is fine go back off face within only a few shots. I had a Husky hammer gun that was loose and fixed it twice working just on the hook. The third time I addressed the bolt lock in addition to that and it is still on face after 6 years and was my primary target gun 2 years and the kid I sold it to hasn't babied it. All the parts of the system need to be right to keep it tight and functioning as designed.

George, I was addressing a worn bolt, not a worn hook. Hooks I usually have had welded and refit. I have also used shims with mixed results.

Sometimes a good strip and clean will help with the bolt depending how well it was maintained

Often a gun will go off face on the right barrel first, because it is typically shot so much more. Especially a gun that digests heavy hunting loads. I have had good results with shimming in a situation like that, where the bolting is still good. I often try first a tiny rectangle of HVAC aluminum tape. What I have seen measures .003", and has it's own adhesive on it to keep it in place. I put it on the hook. It won't last much over 150-200 shots before needing replacing, but will give an indication of how much may be needed to bring the gun back on face, and is quick and easy to replace. If you find that .003" is about right you can go to a more permanent shim, or even have the hook welded and refitted. Be aware that there is at least one well known doublegun 'smith who decries welding the hook. He has stated that in most situations the hinge pin should be replaced with an oversized one, then the hook refitted to it. A little research will show which 'smith that is, then you can decide whether you agree with him or not.

In theory welding on the hook sounds good but in reality can the full roundness of the hook be maintained ?

Does the cross bolt bear any real load or was it just a selling point or was it a safety feature ?....I suspect more of a selling point.

Stan,
I'm not sure if I am the Smith you are referring to or not but I will say when it is possible to replace the hinge pin it is my preferred method of putting a gun with a worn hook back on face. As others have pointed out, sometimes it is the bolt that needs attention and not the hook. I will weld a hook when needed but that is not my favorite way of approaching the issue. Many ways to skin a cat.
Steve

What method have y’all found best to hold hook shim in place?

For a professional fix I've always had the hook TIG welded and filed back to fit. My field expedient measures have run from sticky backed air conditioning tape to newspaper. Newspaper does not last very long...Geo

I’ve wondered if a low temperature solder paste would work to hold a thin shim in place. If so, the shim would be good for the rest of my lifetime or longer. I’ve had little luck with various types of super glue. The problem I’ve found with hiring a “professional” welding and refitting is invariably the surface contact is only about 10% to 30% on the hook. To check I take a Marks A Lot and blacken the repaired hook and reassemble and flex the action a number of times and then check the contact. Pathetic.

I've posted this before on another thread but Permatex High Strength Automotive Grade Sleeve Retainer(NAPA # 765-1146) works extremely well in my experience for fixing a mild steel shim to the hook.

After fitting the shim to the hook degrease both the shim & the hook, apply a drop to the hook, put the shim in the hook then assemble the bbls & forend on the action & let it cure for 24 hours. Put some grease in the action mortise & on the sides of the lumps before assembly to assure that you can easily get the gun open if any excess sleeve retainer is squeezed out from the shim/hook joint.

My German Gunsmith friend, Walter Grass replaced the hinge pin and refit the barrels for a permanent repair; but when a customer insisted, I have also watched him perform a temporary repair. His first step was to expand the hinge pin. He did this by taking both caps off and locking a correctly sized punch in the vise( to act as an anvil), then with help to hold the action, he expanded the pin using another punch and heavy hammer on the other end of the pin. He also peened the locking lug on the barrel with a flat faced punch working on the slanted rear face of the lug. Depending on condition, he would close the frame on the sides of the lugs. He did this by locking the frame in the vise( smooth jaws) and "shocking" it by hitting the fixed jaw with the heavy hammer. The most important part of this process is years of experience. It is not a long lasting repair and the customer must understand and agree that the process might damage the gun. I only watched this on drillings and other parts of the repairs do not apply to double barrel shot guns( tightening loose claw mounts). I forgot, he also stretched the forearm "iron" by peening it on the underside( hidden in the wood) with a punch that looked very much like a cold chisel that had been rounded and polished smooth.
Mike

I had heard this technique was common in England also.

There is one method to tighten loose barrels here that was used here often on cheap guns from the 1900 up to the end of WW 2, I did find a number of farm guns repaired using this method though asking friends today none have an example for me to photograph. The method was simple a dovetail slot was filed in the bottom of the barrel hook a piece of steel with the corresponding dovetail shape was slid in and hammered from each side to make the piece a permanent fit in the hook. Next the added piece was filed to the rough hook shape then slowly adjusted until the gun would close on face, I found this repair on a number of abused farm guns well into the 1970's and the guns still locked up tight enough though every other part was well past their use by date so the guns where scraped.
my preferred method is to shim the hook and if done correctly will last many many years. Joe wood suggested solder and the solder method I have used successfully for some fifty the last one being some three years back. I used quality steel shim stock failing that Automobile engine feeler gauges. I see people have used pieces of Aluminium or Steel cans both being extremely unsatisfactory Aluminium flows under pressure also it is soft enough to allow grit to be embedded in its surface making a permanent abrasive barrel hook to ware the knuckle hinge pin. can steel is also soft and will not keep up with the joint ware for a reasonable time.
My method is to first clean the barrel hook and hinge pin then cut a selection of shims, then add each in turn to tighten the action but try to keep it to no more than two. Now the solder I use is 60% Lead 40%Tin Plumbers type not the Electrical grade being 60%Tin 40% Lead being softer also solder paste I have found today available in 60%tin 40% Lead though on your side of the pond things may be different For good solder joints to Steel an "Active Flux" is by far the best active just meaning that it is acidic and must be washed of with water having a little soda added. I just make my own acidic flux by adding a few drops of Hydrochloric Acid to a small amount of the Rosin Flux keep this flux away from blued surfaces. To start I flux the barrel hook ware face then tin the whole surface, unless you are a miracle worker the solder always pools at the bottom of the hook so I wipe the hook with a dry cloth to remove as much solder as possible but if there is still a little left the final step will remove the excess solder. Now for the shim or shim if you need to use two shims allays place the thinnest shin to the barrel hooks surface with the thicker one on top, I do not recommend that you use a flame to tin the shims a soldering iron is far better and it wont over heat the thin shims then wash every thing well.
The simplest way to fit the shims of shim is a follows, place the shims across the hooks mouth and select a metal drill bit that is a good fit in the hook and will also push and hold the shin or shims in place. When you have selected the correct drill place the fluted end in a vice with the smooth chuck end sticking out of the vice to make a hanger for the barrel hook. Apply some flux to the shim and barrel hook mating surfaces (the use of active flux is now not necessary fit he shim shims in tho the hook and then hang on the drill, doing this will push and keep the shims in place in the hook. Heat gently until the solder runs the drill and the weight of the barrel will cause any excess solder in the joint to flow out of the joint then allow to cool, because of the harder type of shim stock I use i find a small diamond file is best to trim any excess shim. As the quality of engineers shim stock and feeler gauges this repair may out live tour good self, I am still using a gin with this type of hook repair I did some thirty years ago and the gun still locks up like a bank vault door. Give it a try though I will not be around in fifteen years for you to say if the repair lasted.

Actually you're not, Steve, was thinking of another. But, thanks for the comment. Now, I know two who think that way.

I have also seen old guns( usually hardware store branded Belgian) with the hooks center punched around the outside and around the doll's head. This is worse than doing nothing.
Mike

Salut

Suivant la qualité de l'arme, je soude une cale sur la demi-lune du crochet ou bien je remplace l'axe de charnière par un plus gros.

Amen, Joe, that has been my experience as well. And also, the lack of contact between the barrel faces and the breech. Several years ago I sent a new set of A H Fox barrels to a highly renowned doublegun 'smith out west to fit to an A grade Fox frame. These barrels were brand new, with never a stone or file having ever been put to the hook. Completely finished in Philly, except for beads and bluing, but never fitted to a gun. He bragged he did the job in under three hours. When I received it I could see why it only took him that long. There was only 30% contact of the left barrel at the breech, and I could read a newspaper through the crack on the right barrel breech. Zero contact on that barrel. I was flabbergasted, but a lesson learned. Everybody that is bragged on as a doublegun 'smith can't fit barrels. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that the ones who can do it absolutely right are as scarce as hen's teeth. The one set I did myself certainly weren't right, but they had way more breech contact than his.

Two questions:

Damascus suggested that using a soldering iron is preferred for tinning a shim because the best can be more easily controlled. How does one control the heat when welding to the hook with TIG or MIG processes?

Secondly, Mike said this about peening the hook:
Other than the general opinion that this is the way a hack would do it, are there functional disadvantages to upsetting the steel to tighten things?

There seems to be a general consensus that the first area to address is the hook/hinge pin to pull the barrels rearward towards the breach face. How would one know if the proper amount had been added? If too much was added it would seem an unnecessary amount would need to be removed from the barrels to get the gun to close. I understand barrel material might need to be removed but how would you determine that amount before addressing the the barrels?

Thanks for you input.

82nd
Trooper.
I also watched another friend, Gerrold Pheffer, fit up new barrels ( a couple were mine), but to O/Us. He always fit the barrels to the frame first, before cutting the hook and fitting the hinge pin. This way he got good contact with the breach face, without having to worry about the hook. He then fit the locking lug( using a dummy locking wedge) and only after that marked and cut the hook and scraped it to fit the pin last ( except for filing to match the frame).
Mike

Trust me Joe- 40 years in the welding trade, and specializing in TIG on both ferrous and non-ferrous metals- welding to build up the surface of any cylindrical metal shape is a very tricky bit of business. RWTF

This punch both sides of the barrel hook for an off the face repair was considered a correct method here up to the late 1940 s, not the best but far from the worst.

Thanks for that pic, damascus. I've never seen a punch made like that. Appreciate it, that's learning for me.

I often hear of scraping metal to achieve the final fit. What do these scrapers look like?

Joe. Here is a photograph of my gun barrel hook scraper. This tool is now old world gunsmith tool razor sharp on three sides each side is hollow ground and glass hard very easy to break. These scrapers where only used for the finest work because files work faster. this specialized scraper was given to me by an old school gunsmith more years back than I can remember also I have never seen another this size, talking of size the battery is there for size perspective.

That's what I was referring to....I recall seeing one punched like that.

I repaired my Flues in this fashion when I still had a lathe. Made a pin the same size as the hinge pin to hold the .003 shim while soldering. Soldered the shim and trimmed the edges with an exacto knife. You had to really look to tell it had been repaired and it never failed. I was very happy with the results.