I am in the process of acquiring a Charles Lancaster double rifle. The rifle barrels flats are marked 500 EX 3" CASE 115 G** N*6 (asterisks indicate unreadable text). I only have pictures and the proof marks are not clear. The serial number is 7421. I am trying trying to find out more about the gun and could use some help. The 500 express apparently can be loaded in black powder, nitro for black powder and nitro express. I am woefully ignorant about English guns in general and since I don't have the rifle in hand and cannot verify the proof marks. I would welcome any and all information this forum could offer. Thanks in advance. Doug K

Doug,
the powder charge for your rifle is 115 gr of #6 black powder, most likely Curtis and Harvey powder. The 500 ex should never be loaded for a full nitro load. Stick to BPE or nitro for black loadings. How much does the rifle weigh?
Steve

Steve, thanks for the speedy reply. I don't know the weight as I am purchasing this from a friends widow. Any and all information about the gun that you might provide would be helpful. I have visited your website and would be happy to email photos privately. I suspected it was a black powder rifle. I am unsure of the year of manufacture but suspect it is pre 1920's. It has some light engraving and the dark wood is nicely figured. It does not, however, have a 3-leaf sight on the barrels but only a single leaf. For what range is regulated for is unknown. I have been looking online for a Charles Lancaster collector group but have been unsuccessful. As to where any production records are located I haven't a clue.

Doug,
feel free to send me photos. The single leaf sight was most likely regulated for 50 yards. Sometimes they were regulated for multiple distances by using different sight pictures, ie seating the bead fully in the V for 50 yards, floating it at the top of the sight for greater distance. Proofmarks will give an idea as to when it was made as will makers address and serial#.
Steve

According to Nigel Brown's book, No.7421 should date to c.1894/95.

You don't want to use full nitro loads in that rifle. There's a vast, vast difference between a 500 BPE and 500 NE. Your target should be a 340-380 gr. bullet at about 1800 fps. That's good for anything on the North American continent with the possible exception of the biggest bears. If it regulates as good as my Reilley you're looking at 2 inch composite groups at 50 yards.

Thanks everyone, this gives me a lot more information. I appreciate every and any information that I can receive. I appreciate the book references. If anyone has a source for cases, projectiles, powder and loading dies that would be very helpful as well.

Regards, Doug K (NRA LIFE and NRA ENDOWMENT)

Doug

Bob Woodfill wrote a wonderful article in the Black Powder Cartridge News Issue 81 Spring 2013 on the .500 Express. Plenty of historical information, and also loading with components available today. It will probably answer a lot of your questions.

BPCN is 307 587-7621, and their back issues are quite reasonably priced.

Doug K.
Bill Flemings book on British Sporting Rifle Cartridges has no less than three pages devoted to this round. There were many variants in length and construction, the earliest being coiled brass foil like the early .577 Snider and .577/450 Martini-Henry service rounds.

I would advise you to remove the Forearm and take the barrels off. On the underside of the breech end there will be proof Marks and also on the Actions Water Table. These will indicate whether it is Black Powder or Nitro proved. Often the bullet weight and the Powder charge for which the rifle is regulated is included in the proof markings. It's quite a potent cartridge and fully capable of taking any North American game and predators up to and including Grizzly and Polar bears. Not so sure how good it will be on Sasquatch in its BP loading. Lol. If the rifle is BP proof don't use any other powder. It isn't worth the risk, and clean up is easy.
Harry

Steve, thanks for the Nigel Brown book reference. I believe I will order the 3 volumes offered on Amazon because they appear to be very interesting historically.

Mike, I intend to order the referenced Black Powder Cartridge news issue referenced. The magazine is something I believe I will subscribe to - Thanks for the information.

Harry, thanks for the Bill Fleming book reference. I would love to own the Bill Fleming book but the $499.00+/- Amazon price will be something I have to save for. I do have a favorite book monger who sells his wares at the local gun shows who may have a copy.

Doug,
You'll need have someone make a chamber cast and 'slug' the barrel. With that accomplished, you'll know your groove diameter and case length. The former is probably .510 and the latter 3" or 3 1/4". A slightly compressed charge of Pyrodex or 2F black powder with a 440 grain Barnes Original bullet will be a good starting point - if you have the equipment and skills required. Loading large British straight-wall cases can involve some 'advanced' reloading skills. If you are intent on loading them yourself, the 'bible' is Graeme Wright's book Shooting the British Double Rifle. It is a superb book.

You should consider buying loaded cartridges from Superior in Sturgis, SD. It's pricey but you aren't likely to shoot it much and it might require less of an investment than buying the equipment and components necessary to load them yourself.

Hello Doug,
I would willingly scan the pages, but since I moved from XP PRO to Windows 7 my scanner/printer/copier has refused to work. I believe AKMike1 and I bought the last two copies that the author had. He kindly autographed my copy. I understand it was a private publication which took nearly 20 years to sell, I bought my copy a couple of years ago. I have heard it reported, that the total production of the print run only went to three figures, so less than a thousand were printed, hence their current price which is 3 1/2 times what I paid for mine. It is a phenomenal book. It contained a good number of rounds I had never even hear of, and I've been shooting in England for the last 55 years. If Mike reads this perhaps he may make you a copy of the pages concerned.

Harry

Doug,
If you want the info from Fleming's book - PM me your e-mail.

Harry, thanks for the offer and hello for the other side of the pond. I am retired and have to watch my purchases - the rarity of the Fleming book sounds like an investment opportunity if one can find one.

I am running (3) machines on WIN 7 and may be able to help with your printer scanner problem if you care to share the make and model number of your computer and printer/scanner. I have had similar problems in the past when I moved up to a newer operating system. HP seem to like to sell printers, however, there are usually some software/firmware upgrades that can make your printer/scanner functional again.

Thanks Steve, email address sent. Doug K

Thanks Mike, I have ordered the referenced issue and have taken out a subscription. It looks like an excellent publication. Regards, Doug K

Believe, Doug, that you may find that the Lancaster BP double 500 is an "oval bore," and does not/not have rifling. Lancaster used the oval bore (rather than round with lands and grooves) to impart a spin to the bullet and, if I recall, only abandoned the technology in the early 1920s due to the high velocity of bullets not stabilizing adequately.

Don't be put off if you see no rifling as the oval bore works very well indeed for rifles of the vintage of your own.

Regards, Tim

Thanks Tim for the heads up on the bore! I don't have the rifle in hand yet but will take delivery within the month. I am presently doing research on the rifle and ammunition and plan on reloading same. Charles Lancaster was a prolific inventor, as I read, and held the patent for the "oval bore". Lancaster apparently designed military weapons and cannons. The oval bore concept was used on cannon and depending on the source had issues with the cannons exploding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_William_Lancaster

Steve, thanks for the reply. The chamber casting seems straight forward and the materials readily available, however, as to "slugging the barrel" I will need to some more research. The fact that the rifle has an "oval bore" rather than traditional rifling may be problematic.

Thanks for your reference to the Graeme Wright book and have it on my wish list.

As to reloading, I have the equipment to reload and presently reload numerous rifle, pistol and shotgun rounds. RCBS makes the dies for the caliber - pricy - but available.

As to straight wall cases that will require some research. The paper wrapped bullets is another issue if indeed the .500 uses them. I will no doubt acquire some loaded rounds to acquire some cases and for initial shooting.

One quick question: Vol. 1 of Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers - London" lists the following person as the holder of the Charles Lancaster record books. Does anyone know of this person or who may, in fact, have said record books?

David Perkins of Charles Lancaster & Co., LTD; The Firs, Bishopwood, Somerset TA20 3RU, Tel/Fax 01460 234254

Note: apparently the phone has been disconnected or is not current.

Please feel free to message me privately.

Thanks in advance.

Doug K

Doug K,
Charles Lancaster was 'long-gone' when your rifle was made.
He died in 1878 and was replaced by his brother, Alfred, who died in 1890. In 1892 the company was purchased by H.A.A. Thorn who then operated as "Charles Lancaster"until his death in 1914.

"Slugging" the barrel involves driving a soft oversize lead ball
through the barrel. The groove diameter is thus established. While your barrel may not have traditional 'grooves,' you'll still need to know the maximum diameter for proper bullet selection. Your proof marks will likely include a "39" which is the typical bore size for .500s.

Paper patch bullets aren't necessary.

As to reloading dies, 7/8"x14 are available for the .500 but you'll be better served by 1" x 14. Proper sizing of the head of .500 basic cases can be a problem with 7/8" diameter dies.

Steve, thanks for the information. I am convinced that someone somewhere has the production records but it will take considerable detective work to find them. Double guns and rifles have a history and will be an interesting bit of research to discover.

As to reloading dies RCBS offers the following: 56618 .500-450 #1 EXPRESS 3-DIE STEEL SET, however, there is no details as to whether they are 7/8"x14 or 1"x14. Do you have a recommendation as to which manufacturer (i.e. RCBS, etc.) supplies the 1"x14 dies?

Thanks in advance.

Doug K,
1"x14 RCBS dies are in Group X - pricey and you'll need a press
that accepts 1" dies.

Keep in mind that there are different 500/450s. That's why a chamber cast is a good idea. Were it me, once I had the cast, I'd send it to Superior to match it up with their ammo. Keep in mind that when your rifle was made, cartridge and chamber dimensions hadn't been standardized. Superior sells cartridges in 10-round lots. Buy ten and shoot them. Send sample cases to RCBS to see how they match up with their dies. If you're not using 'basic' brass, 7/8"x14 dies should work fine. Given how much you'll shoot it - you might decide to just buy loaded ammo from Superior. A proper reloading set-up (press, dies, scale, powder dispenser, trimmer, etc) will cost about $750 to 1K.If you're not an experienced reloader, this is a difficult place to start.

http://www.superiorammo.com/customammunition.html

Steve, Thanks for the advice.

I have most of the reloading equipment already (RCBS 7/8") except the .500 dies. I have been reloading (rifle, pistol and shotgun) for some time so experience is not an issue.

I don't have the rifle in hand yet and there is some brass that goes with it but just how many is an unknown. I will have to travel to Boise from SLC to pick up the rifle and that will happen sometime mid month in October.

I intend on acquiring additional brass so purchasing loaded rounds from Superior is in order after the chamber casts are made.

The chamber cast will be one of the first things I do. The process seems to be straightforward and the casting metal inexpensive. There are many on line how-to videos on the process. Safely handling hot metal is my biggest concern but I have all the PPE (personal protective equipment) to do that.

There appears to be some shooting competitions available for black powder cartridge rifles. Apparently there was one for double rifles in Baker, OR in 2013. There appears to one near Cody, WY and Bozeman, MT (I hope to move to Bozeman in the next year). The competitions would be interesting and would offer opportunities for networking with other double rifle shooters.

I am a newbie and novice regarding English guns and rifles so I REALLY APPRECIATE any and all advice I can get.

Regards,

Doug K