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Posted By: Geno .577 BP. Qest to Marakkai and the other owners - 11/06/06 09:50 PM
I've been presented by .577 BP Express made by Sauer, s/n 67xxx. The gun is in very bad condition, but rifling is good still. Now I'm in the middle of deep restoration, all ribs are soldering out from barrels and barrels began look like barrels after many hours of hard work.
Next step is bbls regulating, but before it I have to find the right loads and bullet weight.
The brass case looks a bit different from what Marakkai's shown on his web site, it's slightly tapered straight 24G case.
I got bullet molding stuff with this rifle, but I can't say the bullet weight right now, no weights on hands, but bullet is conical.
So what you'd suggest, BP powder type or substitutes, and loads. Thank's.
The gun was originally made for black powder, so I would be inclined to start with black powder loads, more or less fill the case up with 2F or 1F grade powder. Be sure to use a drop tube while loading.
I think that if you are using hollow base bullets (mini balls) , the thickness of the skirt is going to be extremely important to achieving accuracy as well as using a very soft alloy of lead. You may also want to try paper patched solid base bullets.
The greenhill formula (150 diameter square over twist = length) will tell you the maximum length of slug the rifling will stabilize.
Finally, my experience with black powder in general has been that seating the bullet just short of the rifling is more important that the actual charge of powder, in achieving accuracy

cheers Doug
Well, today I made some mesurements, bullet weight is 540 gr, it's double belted conical bullet. Molding stuff looks like original. Rate of twist is from 6 o'clock till 2 1/2 o'clock on 27.5" of barrels length.
Also made chamber cast and the case dimentions are matched to .577 Nitro Express 2.75" shown in Handloader's Manual of Cartrige Convertion, page 683.
Using a twist rate of approximately 1:36", that would allow you a maximum bullet length of about 1.38" or to be on the safe side about 1.25". Remember the express rifles were made for big powder charges and small light bullets in the mistaken belief that they would shoot flatter for long range shooting.

cheers Doug
I agree, I would start loading with black powder. 577's were about 6 dram guns some as much as 7. When was your gun made and how much does the gun weigh? How much do the barrels weigh?
Gun weight is about 9 pounds and barrels is about half of total weight.
Interesting, my friend who gave this DR to me as gift called me today and said he found one more bullet mould from this rifle in his garage and it looked like 650 gr bullet.
I don't know when the gun made, but proofs are post 1891 and pre-1912.
People say it's 1897.
I would have thought your gun would weigh in at at least 10lbs. Have you had it weighed accurately? The guns weight will give you an indication of the load.
Plus or minus couple of oz. I digged through all net, but didn't find no one German made BPE in large caliber to compare with, but some time ago I saw German 500 BPE and it was less, than 9 pounds as well. As soon as Englishmen never bring their DR themself, they don't care about gun weight, but as soon as can't take too much recoil, because they are feeble nation, their DR are too heavy
Well, then the weight tells us nothing except you going to get a fair amount of recoil! 5 to 6.5 drams of black or the nitro equivelant I would guess. What black powders do you have available?
Originally Posted By: Geno
As soon as Englishmen never bring their DR themself, they don't care about gun weight, but as soon as can't take too much recoil, because they are feeble nation, their DR are too heavy


Hey! Those are my relatives you're talking about!
Geno:
Sorry for this late reply, been busy lately. I take it you are intending to regulate the rifle in the normal way, perhaps with a wedge at the muzzles, when re-laying the ribs. You will need to choose a load to regulate with.

Notwithstanding the strength of an Englishman's shoulder, a .577 Express rifle weighing around 9 pounds will not be comfortable to shoot with juiced-up loads. I would strongly suggest sticking to the original factory loads for that rifle, ie 520gr lead bullet over 160gr Fg for 1725 fps (Eley catalogue, 1910-11), which should also regulate perfectly with a 570gr jacketed bullet over the correct amount of medium-burning smokeless (~75gr)to achieve 1650 fps (Nobel catalogue, 1925).

For a good hunting load, I might also suggest trying the Woodleigh 650-grainer (Cat No.5 for BP) at 1650 fps with your equivalent of Varget/IMR4895/Reloader15: I shoot that load in my Greener conversion as you know. It weighs 10.5 lbs and is very comfortable to shoot, but recoil would be stout in a 9-pound gun. Anything more would be silly IMHO.
Thank's, Tony, I expected your reply, but I have found this Eley and Nobel information allready and going to stick to 520 gr bullet over 160-165 gr BP for barrels regulation.
Later I'm going to replace wood and to order stock from heavy dense wallnut with pistol grip (now it's straight stock) and to add needed 1 pound and probably I will try 650 gr bullet.
Have you ever heard about Blue Dot as BP substitute in large bores such as 577 and 600 BPE?
Geno:
I would xpect Blue Dot to be too fast-burning to achieve adequate velocity without pushing up the pressure. Granted, it's a very slow shotgun powder, but still faster than the fastest rifle powders.

My personal rule of thumb would be to use the slowest powder which still burns completely while giving the required velocity, ie no partially-burnt powder kernels visible in the bore after firing. With the .577, that usually means medium-burning to perhaps medium-fast rifle powders, depending on bullet weight and barrel length.
Ross Seyfried wrote in his article Reload Revisited (DGJ Winter 1999) Allaint Blue Dot is the best nitro substitute for the BP in big bores.
Unfortunatly he didn't give the descriptions of the Big Bores, only the follwoing words: ...that use common shotgun description.
At the same time well-known Russian expert Markevith wrote in his book before the war: Big Bore Rifles - from 4G (26,72 mm) till 20G (15,62 mm). Next cathegory following his words: Double Rifle Express (BPE) from 14,66 mm (.577) till 9,14 mm (.360)
(.600 is in Nitro Express cathegory).
As you can see .577 wich is equal to 24G is at the edge between this two cathegories.
I guess nobody tried Blue Dot as substitute in large BPE bores such as .577, but I think it has to work in it, moreover the utilisation of the Blue Dot powder could about right and without visible dirt in bores.
I have to add to my words, all mid-slow burning long rifle powders work right at very high pressures only starting from 2200 to 3000 Bar. It's not pressure for express rifle, the express pressure I guess is about 1200-1500 Bar. Taking this fact, that old special black powders for expresses was very strong I expect, that express rifles can stand for very high pressures.
Geno:
I agree that a slow shotgun powder like Blue Dot may be well-suited to 'bore' rifles such as the 8, 10, and 12-bore guns, especially with round balls at 1000 to 1250 fps. With the larger conicals at slightly higher velocities, however, I would prefer slower powders, in the 'rifle' range. For the .577, definitely rifle powders IMHO.

In my experience, powders like ADI's AR2208 (sold in the US as Hodgdon's 'Varget')will burn completely in a 26 or 28-inch barrel while pushing a 650gr Woodleigh to 1650 fps. In a 22-inch barrel, there is evidence of partially-burnt powder kernels in the bore. In that rifle, I use AR2206, which is ADI's next fastest powder but still in the 'medium' range, and no partially-burnt powder remains in the bore.

I should add that using AR2208 (Varget) in the short barrels works fine regarding accuracy and ballistics, but the muzzle-blast is spectacular so obviously a slightly faster powder was required for optimum efficiency.

Hope this helps.
Doesn't Sherman Bell & Tom the "Pressureman" Armbrust(sp?)
do some Nitro for Black BPE tests in one of the DGJs, I'm sure I read it.
He listed several nitro subsistitute powders for BPE...but don't remeber what.....I will look for the article
Franc
Found Shermans Nitro for Black BPE article...in DGJ Vol 16...issue 3..Fall '05...Pg 29
IMR 4198"Seems about perfect"..Loose quote....seems good info therein
franc
Seyfried's nitro for black formula is: Original BP load x .40 -.46 of either version of 4198. I prefer Hodgdon. Use a standard primer and dacron fiber on the powder to hold it against the primer.

Pete
Well, anyway IMR or something else will be second step. Now I loaded 560 gr lead over 160 gr BP for barrels regulating, but first of all I have to mesure velocity
Don't they just look marvellous!

C'mon man, don't keep us in suspense! How fast did they go?
Well, I have shot all these 8 rounds today. Recoil is pretty sensitive, but can't say deadly, it's o'key for me. The sound is something!
I can't say about velocity right now, didn't measure yet, but something go wrong. I spent 5 rounds for barrels "proof" and for recoil test and only 3 rounds for target shooting. 2 rounds from the right barrel - 1/2 yard between holes at 50 yards, all 3 rounds from both barrels are in aprx. 1 yard circle! Badluck!
I have to check all stuff and next time I'm going to shoot 8-10 rounds.
Geno:
The grease cookie, or alternative bullet-lube/fouling-softening set-up within the cartridge, is critical in loading BP cartridges for accuracy. If you haven't researched this, Mathews has produced a number of inexpensive booklets on the topic, and Graeme Wright's chapter on loading BP Express cartridges gives a few hints. Without lube in there somewhere, you will be unlikely to fire 10 shots without loosing accuracy, perhaps by a 1/2-yard (!), because the hard crusted fouling from the first few shots damages the lead bullet on subsequent shots. All brands of modern black powder are significantly less moist-burning than originals like Curtis & Harvey etc.

If you already know this, please disregard. Also, others have found that using a drop-tube to introduce black powder into the case reduces accuracy for some reason, but not by half a yard. I think that was reported by Sherman Bell, finding out for himself once again.

Hope your next range session sorts out the problems.
Finnally!
I made this THING to shoot well!
560 gr solid bulet in paper patch over greese cookie and over 165 gr of BP "White Bear" #3 (FFFg) was too tough for it. Left bbl shot to the left and right - to the right, distance between POI's was abot 8" at 50 meters.
Next reloading and 520 gr HP bulet, paper patched, greese cookie, 158 gr of BP and you can see two control shots at the target (sorry, for the target, got no time to print something more good-looking).
I think this HP bullet and 160 gr of BP will be what I expected.
Next step is testing in wild.
Will be continiued
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