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Posted By: Michael Petrov An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/15/08 09:59 PM
An invitation to Lurkers*

I’ve been watching the statistics here on Dave’s new forum and see that the Lurkering average is about par with other forums. Please join in when you can, ask questions, make suggestions or share what you know. Tell us what subjects you would like to discuss.

I’d like to make the following offer to the younger crowd (21 and under) folks I don’t see many of on these forums. If you will log on, introduce yourself tell us a little of your interest I’ll send the first person that post a signed copy of my book. I’ll do the same for a first time poster who is an active military member. Two books, one for the younger crowd and one for military.


*In Internet culture, a lurker is a person who reads discussions on a message board, newsgroup, chatroom, file sharing or other interactive system, but rarely participates
Posted By: ChiefShotguns Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/15/08 10:27 PM
Hey, I've been called a jerk(er) before but never a lurker. Guess that doesn't count for a book, huh?
Posted By: tomc Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/15/08 10:36 PM
I have a topic for u but don't know where to put it. The gun is a western 20 gauge double in shape for its age on the metals surface but mechanicaly tight. A friend gave me a couple of Double Gun mags he got at a yard sale. They are now thouroughly slobbered over. I had a local smith replace the wood. I would like to restore the metal. Im thinking about enhancing the engraving on the receiver and doing recase and reblue. How does the metalurgy in this gun compare to my Fox Sterlingworth? Will it continue to last as long as it has? I like the way the gun feels to me. I can hit what I shoot at. Previous owner had a boyscout troup shooting trap with it. This gun is as tight as new. Anyone interested in a project? I will try to take pictures.
Thanks
Tom
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 12:05 AM
Dang Michael I signed up too soon and already spent my 22 years in the military. Oh well at 72 I may start my second childhood again and I will get your next Free copy when I reenlist.Smile
Personally I really enjoy the Site.And am sure as time goes on it will get better and better.If I can help in anyway outside of recuding members as I alredy do that.JUST ASK. Whitey
Posted By: JoeTimberlake Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 12:18 AM
Michael,

I was 21 once, some time back, and I am a vet. I seldom lurk and get quite involved in topics, issues and such.

Such as. Whitey, how you doing on that TD Hornet? I'm putting together a 40-82 Crossno TD with a very heavy barrel.

Keep warm, where ever you are. JTL
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 02:11 AM
Originally Posted By: tomc
I have a topic for u but don't know where to put it. The gun is a western 20 gauge double in shape for its age on the metals surface but mechanicaly tight. A friend gave me a couple of Double Gun mags he got at a yard sale. They are now thouroughly slobbered over. I had a local smith replace the wood. I would like to restore the metal. Im thinking about enhancing the engraving on the receiver and doing recase and reblue. How does the metalurgy in this gun compare to my Fox Sterlingworth? Will it continue to last as long as it has? I like the way the gun feels to me. I can hit what I shoot at. Previous owner had a boyscout troup shooting trap with it. This gun is as tight as new. Anyone interested in a project? I will try to take pictures.
Thanks
Tom


Tom, If you will post your question on the Doublegun side I'm sure you will get a lot of response. Good Luck,
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 02:14 AM
Thanks Just about done turning the barrel.Things keep getting in the way. Smile. Whitey
Posted By: Vol423 Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 04:52 AM
Here are some ideas that would interest me:

Switch-barrel rifles:
e.g. Martini .22LR and .22 Magnum

Take-down rifles, perhaps even with multiple barrel sets (Notice a pattern here)

Stalking rifles (How about take-down switch barrel ones)

Quick-detach scopes, such as claw mounts, EAW swing mounts, Kreighoff slide-off mounts

Gauge rifles. How about a single-shot 12 bore on a Martini Large action with rifled barrel, heavy iron sights and set up for round balls. I have an extra Martini takedown GP shotgun if someone wants to install an ER Shaw rifled barrel and fit it up with good irons. I'll stock it just like a English stalking rifle. (Wow, since it already has a shotgun barrel, it would be a takedown rifle as well!)

Making fitted takedown gun cases. I've made a few in my time and may have a few in-process photos. I have one in the works now for a two-barrel shotgun.
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 05:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Michael Petrov
An invitation to Lurkers*

I’d like to make the following offer to the younger crowd (21 and under) folks I don’t see many of on these forums. If you will log on, introduce yourself tell us a little of your interest I’ll send the first person that post a signed copy of my book. I’ll do the same for a first time poster who is an active military member. Two books, one for the younger crowd and one for military.


Well,
I'm new at this stuff and I've been 21 over three times now, working on the fourth. Been in the Military twice but like Whitey it was a long time ago. Shot all over the world, was starting to get interested in Traditional Single Shot Schuetzen type rifle shooting but the "good old boys" over on that other site really discouraged me. I don't think I could shoot shoulder to shoulder with some of them as I would be tempted to slap them up side the head and that wouldn't be a good thing so I backed off. Did get to shoot in two of there events and really enjoyed it before I found out what some of the guys were all about.

Now I'll ask the important question, I'm not young enough to win one, and I'm sure I'm to old to be in the military to win one, so maybe I'll buy one, now I'll show how dumb I am, what is the book about.
Set Trigger
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 05:55 AM
Set Trigger,
Now days I primarily write for Precision Shooting Magazine on the subject of Pre-1940 American custom rifle makers. A couple years ago PS published a book of my articles.
http://www.precisionshooting.com/book_ads/book_ads_customgunmakers_frame.html

Not much in the book on the makers of single-shot rifles.

I been involved with Schuetzen rifles for more than thirty years and there are some fine people in the sport. You should not let a few people discourage you. Find folks in your area who shoot Schuetzen rifles and join them.
Posted By: J.D.Steele Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 01:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Vol423
Here are some ideas that would interest me:
Switch-barrel rifles:
e.g. Martini .22LR and .22 Magnum
Take-down rifles, perhaps even with multiple barrel sets (Notice a pattern here)
Stalking rifles (How about take-down switch barrel ones)
Quick-detach scopes, such as claw mounts, EAW swing mounts, Kreighoff slide-off mounts
Making fitted takedown gun cases. I've made a few in my time and may have a few in-process photos. I have one in the works now for a two-barrel shotgun.


Hi Vol423, I'd really be interested to see some photos of your gun cases. I'm currently working on a Martini Cadet ELW takedown in an altered takedown shotgun case and could use some ideas.

How about a takedown switch-bbl in 17 HM2 or HMR, 22LR or 22WMR, 219 Zipper, 25-35, 7-30 Waters, 30-30 and 35/30-30? The RFs can be used with offset bores to allow the CF firing pin to strike the RF edge while the 30-30-size extractor will extract the RF cases adequately from the offset bore.

My Martini Cadet has a quarter-rib with QD Kimber rings to facilitate the takedown, will show pics when closer to completion. These rings return to zero within 0.5 MOA and are quite svelte, providing a pleasing appearance along with their superior functionality.

Meanwhile welcome to the site and don't hesitate to contribute!
Regards, Joe
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 03:55 PM
Set Trigger glad to see you here.You will not have all the JERKS here. I really don't know how some get dressed in the morning in the morning over there.They have such a big head they need a engine hoist standing by.It's just too bad it is not filled with smarts. HOWEVER there is some nice great people there that stay for there own reasons. Whitey
Posted By: Sven Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/16/08 08:42 PM
OK Michael, here goes...

I too don't qualify as young or in active military duty. Started shooting as a kid in Scouts and the local rifle range, and have been a birdhunter here in MN and surrounding states since the mid-1960s. I was an odd-ball in my teens as I carried a side-by-side instead of a pump. As of late enjoy the pointing dog work more than the shooting, and often times just handle the dogs for my father (age 78).

My in-laws convinced me to try deer hunting a dozen or so years ago. I do enjoy it, at least for the few days while we can't run the dogs on birds. My rifle is the deer hunting counterpart to the 870... at least it is wood and blued metal in a somewhat unique caliber. I don't particilarily like to shoot it at targets as it pounds my shoulder, but of course I never notice the kick when killing a whitetail.

I have always liked the looks of a Ruger No 1... and I have drooled over pictures of the Dakota Model 10. Some day!...

I do have several questions about a handed-down brown rifle I own and will start a new thread.

Bryan
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 02:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Michael Petrov

Not much in the book on the makers of single-shot rifles.

I been involved with Schuetzen rifles for more than thirty years and there are some fine people in the sport. You should not let a few people discourage you. Find folks in your area who shoot Schuetzen rifles and join them.


Mike,
I'm sure that there are fine people in all shooting sports and there will always be a few that are problems. These problem people will not discourage me from shooting.

I still shoot and enjoy every hour of it in spite of them. The problem with shooting there Schuetzen Matches is that you have to be a member to shoot there events, I don't have a problem with that as I believe that shooters should support the clubs that put on the events.

My problem is I just cant bring myself to financially support, or support in any way a club in which the problem people are some of the officers, and after seeing the way some of them disrespect there members it's just not in me to be a member or a part of something like that.

I have always shot in matches because it was fun and enjoyable, I'm an old guy and don't know how many fun days I have left, so at my age I realize very well that if it's not fun, don't waste time doing it.

Being that I don't enjoy rubbing elbows or associating with the type of people some of these officers are, it's best I back away, if there attitude changes towards members I think I and some others that are on this forum will get back at shooting there events.

I'm sorry I said anything about the problems they seem to have as this is not the place to talk about such things. I tend to get carried away when talking about things like this so will not say any more other than lets get back to talking about guns.

I always try to find some good in most everything so I look at it this way, because of there "good old boy" attitude this forum has grown and will continue to grow, and the more forums we have the better off we are.

Sorry to say that I really don't have much interest in Bolt guns, to many moving parts I guess, but it sounds like an interesting book for those that are interested in them.

Now how bout a book on Traditional Single Shots.
Set Trigger
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 02:24 AM
Set Trigger,

I understand how you feel and if it's not fun why do it. I have never been very competitive so I'm not much of a match shooter, enjoying solitaire bench shooting. I've written a few things about single-shot rifles such as a paper-patch article, an article about Mr. Niedner's Schuetzen rifle, a Maynard long-range and few others but don't think you will see a single-shot book with my name on it.

I wrote this several years ago (June 2000) for the ASSRA, I had all but forgotten about it until Terry reminded me after I told someone at the Vegas show I did not know of an article about shooting a Pope rifle.

DEAR ROBERT

by

Michael Petrov



Thanks for your letter of February 30th. The pictures show the rifle and tools fine. You have a Ballard rifle made by Marlin with a barrel made by Harry M. Pope when he was located in Hartford, Connecticut. I think that it’s swell that your grandfather left you this rifle. The note from me with your grandfather’s papers was written 30 or so years ago when I just got started playing with Schuetzen rifles. Then I was asking for his help. I even have copies of a few of the targets that your Grandfather shot with this rifle.


First a bit of history on the man who made your rifle. H. M. Pope was one of the best if not the best barrel-maker of lead bullet single-shot Schuetzen rifles. He started making barrels commercially in 1894 at Hartford, Connecticut. These barrels are stamped “Rifled by H.M. Pope Hartford Conn.”. In 1901 Stevens Rifle Co. got him to go to work for them, these barrels are marked “Stevens-Pope”. In 1905 he quit Stevens and set up a shop in San Francisco which was destroyed by an earthquake before he ever opened its doors. Form 1908 until his retirement he worked at Jersey City, New Jersey; these barrels are marked H.M. Pope. Jersey City barrels will also have the date marked on the bottom. Your barrel number 373 was made in Hartford. If you look under the forearm you will see the number 373, and this same number will be found on the false-muzzle and the bullet starter. The other numbers under the forearm are rifling code used for the rifling machine setting. Your rifle most likely has what is call gain twist rifling. What this means is that the rate of twist increases as the bullet approaches the muzzle. The reason for this was to start the bullet out slower with less deformation and also to help seal the gases behind the bullet.

Your rifle is a Breech-Muzzle Loader, which means a bullet can be loaded from either the muzzle or the breech. To assist in loading from the muzzle, a false muzzle was fitted to your rifle. The false muzzle is a small piece of the barrel that is cut off, then reattached with four tightly fitted pins, before the bore is reamed and rifled. The barrel and the false muzzle are then reamed and rifled at the same time. To load the rifle the bullet is set base down into the false-muzzle, then the bullet starter placed over it and the bullet driven down the bore for a couple of inches. The bullet starter was then removed and a loading rod was used to seat the bullet just in front of the chamber where a loaded case with powder and primer would be placed. The false muzzle protects the muzzle of the rifle and insures that the bullet enters the rifling straight. After seating and before shooting this false-muzzle is removed. Loading the bullet from the muzzle engraves the rifling on the bullet and scrapes the fouling clean in the bore so the fouling will not accumulate. If the loading rod is not with the rifle or you break or misplace the one you have you can make a new one. Place a case on the right side of the barrel in relation to the chamber then about 1/16” in front of it place a bullet. In the area just in front of the bullet you will see what looks like a fine scratch mark. This is where Pope marked the barrel for the length of loading rod.

I am pleased that you want to shoot the rifle and I will help in any way I can.
First let me say that with care you can pass this rifle on to your grandson. I know that you are a shooter and have cast bullets for years. I am going to cover ground that you are probably well aware of, so please don’t think that I am talking down to you. You can shoot this rifle as much as you want, lead bullets will never wear it out. I will tell you how I do things, as you meet other shooters they will share their ways and from each you will learn something. More damage can be done with the cleaning rod or by not paying attention at the range than when shooting. If you do not have a one piece cleaning rod of steel you need to get one with a button or jag tip. Make sure that the cleaning rod is not coated, or made of aluminum or brass. All these will let fouling imbed into the rod and act as an abrasive. I think they still make the Belding & Mull cleaning rod which works well because it has a small diameter handle and will clear the comb of the stock.



Your rifle is .33 caliber and uses .32-40 cartridge cases. If there is not a cleaning rod guide in the set of tools, take a .32-40 case and drill out the primer pocket and the back of the case until the cleaning rod, with patch, will pass through the hole. When cleaning your rifle place the case in the chamber and put a cotton patch with Hoppe’s No.9  on the end of the rod making sure that the false-muzzle is in place run your rod until it touches your finger of the other hand that you are holding over the end of the muzzle, then withdraw the rod. After a day of shooting that creates a dirty bore I take one patch that has Hoppe’s on it. I wad it up and push this in front of my cleaning patch and let this with all the fouling fall out the end. You will find that two or three patches ran back and forth once are all that is needed so the bore will be like new. If you are going to store the rifle for several months or longer run a patch with RIG  (Rust Inhibitor Grease) on it to coat and protect the bore. I know that there are many cleaning products on the market but just use Hoppe’s No. 9 and RIG. They work and will not hurt your bore. Placing the case you drilled the back out on in the chamber during cleaning will prevent any wear to the chamber from the cleaning rod. Always clean the rifle from the breech. Pope was so concerned about the chamber and rifling at the end that he chambered the rifle first then made a false-chamber and rifled the barrel with this in place.

Now would be a good time to explain what all the tools do. The Re-De capper is used to removed the fired primer and to seat a new one. Care should be used to make sure that the pin is pressing on the fired primer and not the bottom of the case as this pin is easily bent. One way to make things more consistent is to use only one case and reload this same case for each shot. The powder measure with this rifle is called a “Pope Loading Flask” or duplex powder measure. The one in your set is one that is not found very often, a duplex made by Wilkinson. It was found years ago that a small charge of smokeless powder next to the primer, then the main charge of black powder on top of the smokeless, makes for cleaner shooting. The tool that looks like a cartridge case on the end of a handle is a breech seater. When you load from the breech the bullet is placed into the seater then the bullet is pushed into the rifling just in front of the chamber. Next is the Pope bullet mould: this is called a double cutoff type mould because the bullet is poured from the nose and the base plate is connected to the nose plate so they swing away together. It is made this way so that the base of the bullet is square without sprue cutoff. Also any imperfections will be in the nose of the bullet, and closer to the bullets center axis, where they are less likely to upset the balance of the bullet as it spins. The other tool is a lubricating pump used to put the lube in the grooves of the bullet.


Casting Bullets:

Your Pope mould is made for your rifle. The bullet is designed to be shot as cast and no re-sizing is needed. This is a tapered two diameter bullet the front bands are bore diameter with the rear bands groove diameter. The mould must never be struck with anything. Get yourself a pair of welding gloves and open the sprue plate by hand, if the bullet does not fall out, rap the back of the handle with a piece of wood (I use an old wooden hammer handle). For muzzle-loading start with a bullet 1 part tin to 35 parts lead, and for breech-seating start with a bullet 1 part tin to 20 parts lead. You’re shooting one of the best rifles ever made so don’t guess at the content of some scrap lead. Use new lead and tin. Every rifle is different, some will shoot a soft bullet, and others will require a hard one. If there is any loading data or other information on the targets your grandfather shot it may list the weight of the bullet and you can experiment to find the same weight. In regard to lead pots, for me less is more. I am using a Lee bottom-pour pot, one of the least expensive on the market. This pot gets hotter than others and works best with a lead-tin mixture. I have found that bullets that would be considered cast too hot and are a little frosty seem to produce the best bullets with sharp, square, grease grooves and have a very small rejection rate. I weigh all bullets and any that are not + - .2 grain are rejected. When the mould is put away I cover all surfaces with some Hoppe’s No. 9. Before casting again I clean the mould with electric motor cleaner (do this outside for ventilation) One thing I do that helps to speed up the casting is to warm the mould over a small gas flame. You might want to try experimenting with some other mould before the Pope to get the hang of things. Two places on your Pope mould you will see the word WAX stamped beside a hole. When casting have a small amount of beeswax rolled out about the size of pencil lead and every so often put a little wax in the holes to keep the mould from galling.



Lubricating Bullets:

There must be as many lubes as there are shooters of Schuetzen rifles and everyone has his own one that is just right for his rifle. There are two ways to lube the bullets; One is to use the Pope-Lubricator, the other is to pan-lube. My method is pan lubing. What this means is that I stand 50 bullets up in a plastic sandwich container and pour hot lube around them until all the grooves are covered. When the lube hardens at room temperature I push them out with my fingers. The lube I have used for over twenty years is Alox 218F and pure yellow Beeswax 50-50 by weight. I melt this in a double boiler. My double boiler is an old electric skillet that I fill with an inch or so of water. I set the pan with the lube in the water in order to melt the lube. This method prevents the lube from getting too hot and being ruined. Just as the lube is melting I use a hair drier to heat up the bullets as this helps to keep the lube from pulling away from cold bullets. This Alox-Beeswax lube works well in the cooler temperatures that we have here in Alaska. When the temperature is above 75 degrees this is not a good lube. There are many lubes on the market that you can try. The other method is to use the Pope lubricator. I have never used these much as they are messy and time consuming. The removable die is made for only one bullet and must be changed when you use a different bullet. If you go to a very soft lube you may want to try the pump. There are two ways to load the Pope lubricator, cast the lube into sticks that can be inserted into the pump body or melt the lube and pour it directly into the pump.

Going to the Range:

Regardless of how you decided to shoot the rifle, either by breech-loading or muzzle-loading, and before you leave the house tie one end of a string on the false muzzle, then tie the other end to your rear sight. When you get to the range and are going to muzzle-load, tie the string to the loading bench and if you're breech loading take off the false muzzle and put it in your shooting box. You are doing all this so that you will not shoot the rifle with the false muzzle still attached to the barrel. If you shoot with the false muzzle attached the bullet will pull it off and fling it down range and possible ruin it. Many people have done this at one time or another. Pope himself made this mistake. The false muzzle has a pin with a small ball on it. This is called a binder pin and if the false muzzle is left on, the little ball will get in front of the sight and you can not see to shoot. The ball will have a groove cut into it for inserting a disk to block your view when using a scope.

I would suggest that the first few times you shoot your Pope rifle you find someplace by yourself to shoot. If you go to a public range find a time when very few people are there. As soon as you pull out that fine old rifle you will have an audience who will want to ask questions. When this happens STOP whatever you are doing and don’t start again until your full attention is on loading and shooting. When your attention is back on the job at hand START OVER.

Things that can go wrong when not paying attention would be for you to start a bullet into the muzzle and not seat it all the way down in front of the chamber. If you were to load a case and shoot, the barrel would bulge or fail where the bullet was and the barrel would be ruined. In a moment of distraction it is easy to double-charge your case with smokeless powder. The average charge generates around 30,000 PSI, a double charge about 60,000 PSI . Your Ballard will not take this kind of pressure and the rear of the barrel and the action will fail. Two things that it pays to get into the habit of doing are to always turn your primed case over and look at the primer before throwing the powder charge, (in this way you can never double charge). Another good habit is always to look into the chamber before loading the case to make sure that the bullet is just in front of the chamber and not up the barrel somewhere. I would also be remiss if I did not bring up the matter of safety. Never go to the shooting line with out your safety classes and hearing protection. A loose primer pocket, old brass, worn or broken firing pin, it does not take an over load for you to end up with a face full of powder and gas. When you leave the bench or go down range make sure that the action is open and the CHAMBER IS EMPTY.

Breech-Loading :
When breech loading make sure that your breech-loading tool is placing the bullet in the proper position. After you have breech-seated a bullet for the first time take a rod from the muzzle end and push the bullet back out to see if the rifling is engraved the full length of the bullet. If it isn’t the bullet needs to be seated deeper. The two powders that I use are IMR 4227 and SR 4759. 4227 is a small grain, fast-burning powder that works well in my Schuetzen rifles of caliber .32-40 and .33-47. Start out with 13.0 grains of 4227 and no wad. I have found that a wad is not needed when using 4227, but is needed when using large grain powder like 4759. Looking at the base of a recovered lead bullet that has been shot with 4759 and without a wad shows a lot of deformation of the base by the powder grains. The same base when fired with 4227 looks sand blasted but not deformed. Wads work well in some rifles and not in others so give them a try. Wads have been made out of lots of different materials such as, postal card stock, milk cartons, felt, and fiber just to name a few. I have had the best luck with 1/6” and 1/8” cork. You will want to use the duplex measure when shooting with black powder and muzzle-loading, but for breech-loading and smokeless powder get yourself a good modern powder measure. I use a Redding that is very consistent. I use Remington number 2 1/2 pistol primers because the older shooters said they were less harsh on the bore and they give uniform ignition. When you place a loaded case in the chamber make sure that you do it the same each time. I find that making a small line on the base of the case with a file, then lining this up each time with the extractor cut works well.

Muzzle Loading:

With the false-muzzle on the rifle place a bullet base down on top with the bullet starter over the top of this. Now with one sharp downward thrust with the palm of your hand seat the bullet. Remove the bullet starter and use the seating rod to push the bullet the rest of the way down the bore. Remove the rod slowly so as not to pull the bullet back up the bore. Remove the false muzzle, look into the chamber and make sure the bullet is just in front of the chamber. Load your case and fire your shot. Have I told you that the Ballard must never be cocked before you open the action? If you were to do this the sear notch would be broken or damaged. After you shoot remove the fired case, stand the rifle up, and before putting on the false-muzzle, be sure to clean the muzzle of any fouling. Also, check to be sure that the false muzzle is clean and the pins have a little lube on them. Pope suggested bullet lube, I use a little RIG. Muzzle loading and black powder go together. I use a priming charge of 4 grains of 4759 and 34.5 grains of Goex 2F Black. You might want to try the new Cartridge grade of powder they are now producing. When using black powder the case must be full and you will need a wad, I have found a cork wad the best. Extra care must be taken cleaning the barrel when shooting black powder. Black powder is corrosive, if the fouling is left in the bore it will damage or ruin the barrel. Any of the water base commercial made products will work fine, I use a little liquid soap and water and run the first two patches with this on them, then follow with the Hoppies and rig.

At The Bench:

A solid rest is very important for fine shooting. I use a rifle rest with a flat sandbag. I believe they call these Brick Bags. I rest my barrel on the bag making sure to push the rifle forward until the forearm just touches the bag. When the rifle recoils after every shot I can return the rifle to the same place for the next shot. The rear bag is called a rabbit ear bag. I set up the rifle and adjust the rest so that I just have to squeeze the rear bag a little to get the sights lined up on target. I try to hold the rifle with my cheek just touching the stock and my left arm laying on the bench parallel to the rifle and holding the rear bag. If you are sighting in the rifle to shoot offhand then rest the rifle on the forearm in the area of the palm rest base. With the rifle set up and ready to fire I cock the hammer. Then I place my left thumb between the hammer and the firing pin and I pull the rear trigger until it sets (you can feel the click). When shooting from rest the set trigger is set so just a bit more that a touch fires the rifle, when shooting offhand I like a tad more resistance. The first few shots from a clean bore may not go into the group. Every rifle is different some will start shooting to the same spot only after two are three shots with some it takes many more. When you first start shooting don’t adjust your sights, just shot until they settle down into a group then adjust your scope. The best advice I can give you about shooting from the bench is to do the same thing for every shot.

The Groups:

Much has been written about the shooting qualities of a Pope rifle both fact and fiction. Pope himself guaranteed his rifles to shoot a 10 shot 3" groups at 200 yards under average conditions. It would not only be unfair but very discouraging to see only the best groups published without some overall idea of what to expect. Breech-loading with smokeless powder you should expect an average of one minuet-of-angle groups. This means at 100 yards you should be getting 1" groups and at 200 yards 2". It does not take much of a wind to steer these slow moving bullets off course. Experienced shooters who can judge the wind set match-winning records.

With A Scope:

The Fecker scope that is with the rifle mounts on the two dovetail blocks already on the barrel. Before you mount the scope on the gun remove the metal end caps, point the scope at the sky and adjust the rear eye piece until the cross wires are clear and sharp to your eye. After mounting the scope on the rifle and before shooting set up your rifle in the rest with the action open and bore- sight the rifle by looking through the bore and moving the rifle until you can see the target. Without moving the rifle turn the external adjustments until the crosswires are on the center of the target. The next step is to remove any parallax. What I mean by this is with the rifle held fast look into the scope at the target and move you head back and forth. If the crosswires move on the target then you need to loosen the jam nut in the center of the scope and move the adjustment back and forth until the crosswires do not move on the target. When shooting at different ranges this will have to be done each time. Be sure to keep note of the setting. Newer scopes like Lyman and Unertl have this adjustment in the front lens it is marked in yards. These target scopes recoil back out of battery when you shoot. The first thing to do after shooting is to slide your finger along the top of the barrel and return the scope to battery.

Well Robert, I guess that about covers what I can tell you. I would recommend that you join the American Single Shot Rifle Association. They publish a newsletter six times a year and through the newsletter you will meet others who have an interest in these fine old Schuetzen rifles. If you take to the Schuetzen Rifle game and want to start shooting in matches you might consider building a new rifle. Saving the Pope for those special times when you want to connect to the past when the Schuetzen was King.

Sincerely Yours,

Michael
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 04:06 AM
Michael,
That was an unbelievable read, I cant remember ever reading anything that detailed. It was GREAT.

I happen to have a H.M. Pope S&W Single Shot and some targets that he shot in 1913. I'm going to print this out and re-read it a few more times.

You mentioned that Pope guaranteed his rifles to shoot a 10 shot 3" group at 200 yds., I'm sure you can answer this question, what was the size of the 10 ring on the 200 yd. target at that time, just curious, I would think that the 3" group would be all 10's. The Pope target that I have for the S&W Single Shot shows 55 Shots at 50 yds in about 1", the 10 ring on the 50 yd target at that time I believe was 3.36", more than good enough to shoot perfect scores at 50 yds.
Thanks again for such a great article.
ST
Posted By: mriisj Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 03:17 PM
Michael
Thanks for this article, I been trying to get a hold of it for some time but no such luck until now, I did not know it was you who did it, now it is printed and stored and I will sure re-read from time to time.

Michael
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 03:59 PM
There is another way to increase readership ---- The most popular articles in the ASSRA Journal and the SSX has always been the how to/gunshithing/tinkering articles. I got this info from Brett Boyd (Single Shot Exchange) and John Campbell of the Journal. I have been approached by individuals asking if I could help this site establish a smithing forum. I indicated that this would possibly require a further expense for a funsmithing only forum . Of course, all smithing articles could be seperated from other articles if there was an icon that could be attached. Feed back welcomed.
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 04:05 PM
Ken the forum is already great. But if there was a way to do something like that It would be awsum IMO.Whitey
Posted By: Vall Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/17/08 09:14 PM
I'll second Whitey! The idea of gunsmithing how to's, or gunsmithing kinks, like the old Broiwnells books, is a great one!
I've got a couple of Leonard Bronells books, and I refer to them often, or just read them for fun!
Posted By: The Double D Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 04:28 PM
Originally Posted By: J.D.Steele

How about a takedown switch-bbl in 17 HM2 or HMR, 22LR or 22WMR, 219 Zipper, 25-35, 7-30 Waters, 30-30 and 35/30-30? The RFs can be used with offset bores to allow the CF firing pin to strike the RF edge while the 30-30-size extractor will extract the RF cases adequately from the offset bore.

Joe


Your switching barrels why not switch trigger groups also and insert the correct one when needed; one for rimfire, one for rim fire magnum and one for centerfire. Then all you would have to do is keep all your centerfires with the same cartridge head.
Posted By: J.D.Steele Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 05:09 PM
DD, your suggestion is a good one and I initially wanted to go that way, but was dissuaded by the relative unavailability of Cadet parts. Then the concept of an offset bore occurred to me; been done plenty of times before, it ain't rocket science, but the extraction would work with only one particular case head size. It happened to be the 30-30 size, you'll notice all the ones I mentioned above are that size. I could also have probably used either of the 303 Savage or 30-40 sizes but IMO they are slightly too large for loads above 40K.
Regards, Joe
Posted By: J.D.Steele Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 05:44 PM
Vall & Whitey, I would love to write for a venue that valued smithing articles!

And, would pay me enough to assuage at least my pride if not my pocketbook(G).

At this point the cheese starts to get binding, as my old grandmother used to say. Unfortunately the smithing-only magazines of the past seem to have all gone bust in short order, and most if not all others aren't really that interested in smithing articles or at least they don't seem to be. AAMOF it was John Campbell's publishing of more smithing articles in the Journal that was one of the bones of contention in the ASSRA. Apparently some folks in the ASSRA didn't want to see that type of article, for whatever reasons.

I already have enough material collected & begun for around 2 dozen single shot articles, and another 2 dozen regular columns on handy amateur-made tools and easy-to-follow procedures. Could do the same for bolt actions if prodded enough. And there are plenty of other real (as opposed to me, G) authorities/experts on this & other forums who have already tried writing or could be persuaded to do so.

The problem is, where to publish? IMO the key to success would be to have an established magazine with an existing single shot/fine rifle clientele begin to emphasize smithing more heavily. I wish.
Regards, Joe
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 07:15 PM

Joe
Why not the BPCN? Though the monetary reward might be small. The price of a niche market I guess.
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 07:20 PM
Joe I can only speak for myself. And as I know the quality of your work. After abut 10 rifles so far.( I should Smile).
As everyone knows you can buy a COPY of articles from ASSRA.And they are just done on a printer. How about you doing the same.J I want one copy of each.Just tell me the price and money is in the Mail.Whitey
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 08:20 PM
Joe,
Maybe there is something I'm not aware of (very normal for me) but how about Blackpowder Cartridge News, Garbe's magazine?
Best,
Steve
Posted By: J.B. Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 09:14 PM
Mr. Petrov, While I am not 21, I am probably one of the youngest members of the board. I read this site everyday picking up information that can't be found else where. Before this board started I always viewed rifles as tools not art like a fine sxs. This board has opened my eyes and you have shown me that rifles can be in the same class as a fine double. I am now in the hunt for a nice vintage rifle to hunt with next season but really have no idea where to start. How about a topic for the beginner, what to look for what to avoid and so on? I would like to thank you and the other members for pushing for this forum. While I may not post much I am always here. Thanks, JB
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 09:21 PM
For what little I know. The problem with magazines is it takes mts to get a articl in. IF ever. Joe howmany years did you wait on ASSRA to do the mounting moder scopes.?? Now figure out how long it would take to get them all published.??? I know I am already 72 and would like to see them IN THIS LIFETIME Smile.
Joe while you are waiting for a publisher. Get the printer out. If you only sell one set to ME.It's money in your pocket without a headacke. Whitey
Posted By: WJL Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 11:01 PM
Good grief I'd certainly pay for such articles. Joe just did a really pretty piece of work on my bolts and on a quick release on the floorplate of my Springfield that make me want to know just what he did and how he did it. It's unlikely I'll ever do such work but I just love knowning how things are made.

Jerry Liles
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/18/08 11:22 PM
Jerry you are abustley right.Even if you do not want to do the work. You would like to see some of the things involved in building your gun and what you are paying for when someone builds one for you. Whitey
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/19/08 01:06 AM
Originally Posted By: J.B.
Mr. Petrov, While I am not 21, I am probably one of the youngest members of the board. I read this site everyday picking up information that can't be found else where. Before this board started I always viewed rifles as tools not art like a fine sxs. This board has opened my eyes and you have shown me that rifles can be in the same class as a fine double. I am now in the hunt for a nice vintage rifle to hunt with next season but really have no idea where to start. How about a topic for the beginner, what to look for what to avoid and so on? I would like to thank you and the other members for pushing for this forum. While I may not post much I am always here. Thanks, JB


JB, First it's Michael, when someone says they are young I think, not drawing social security yet ;-). About 600 views to this thread and no one 21 or under, offer is good until Christmas.

JB, well read all you can on the subject, look at the pictures and ask questions. When you run across a possible classic rifle that your looking to buy, run it past me first. You can email me or call me. Folks call me all the time and I would much prefer you ask me about a rifle before rather than after. I hate to give bad news like last week I had to tell a fellow his Hoffman was a modern restock. Please remember the time zones you would be amazed how many 4-5AM calls I get.


mjpetrov@acsalaska.net
(907) 522-4628
Posted By: mriisj Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/19/08 12:01 PM
What J.B and whitey said, I am here every day to and I love all the technical stuff and all the good pictures, I learn every day from this site. I for one would be willing to pay for articles of interest but there is more into the subject than that.

This is a little hard for me to write hence I don’t want to offence anyone, In my work I have done my part of articles these articles was in the electronic industry and was outdated and forgotten in 5 to 10 years. The articles you gentlemen’s write will last forever and I think that you have an obligation to the future single shot enthusiasts not to have your great knowledge vanish in time but be there for those in the future that needs it , a lot of knowledge in this field has gone in time and need to be re-invented just because people like us was thinking the same thing “how much can I get out of this”.

So write your articles, have fun when doing it (I know I have)and feel good inside when you see it published in some magazine even though you did not get rich in money, but it will warm you inside each time you hear people talking about this good article, also in a 100 years from now when you are looking down from above.

I see all your knowledgeable gentlemen’s spend a lot of time helping people here on this forum and earlier on other forums as well for free, in 100 years from now all this will be forgotten but if you turned it in to articles in some magazine the knowledge will be there forever and people will look back as we do today and thanks those gentlemen’s making this articles.

The last thing is there is a great difference between the thing you gentlemen’s are writing and what the journalists who need to find something new for every issue to sell even if it is a step back or complete fullness.

Michael
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/19/08 05:07 PM
What Michael said. I can't believe that someone with a little smarts.( that leaves me out)About printing etc. Like Maybe Green Frog or JD or???.Could not put a book together with just a index and the articles.It does not have to have a fancy cover etc. Maybe something simlar to the De Hass idea book.Or What ever.
Please somebody that can do this DO IT. It would not only be great for the hobby but I think make you a little money. JMO.Whitey
Posted By: The Double D Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/19/08 06:25 PM
Originally Posted By: J.D.Steele
DD, your suggestion is a good one and I initially wanted to go that way, but was dissuaded by the relative unavailability of Cadet parts. Then the concept of an offset bore occurred to me; been done plenty of times before, it ain't rocket science, but the extraction would work with only one particular case head size. It happened to be the 30-30 size, you'll notice all the ones I mentioned above are that size. I could also have probably used either of the 303 Savage or 30-40 sizes but IMO they are slightly too large for loads above 40K.
Regards, Joe


So the 30-30 extractor has sufficient contact to extract? What did you do about the exposed sides of the rimfire case? Any problems with bulging or rupture of the unsupported sides?
Posted By: J.B. Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/19/08 07:15 PM
Michael, At 28 I doubt SS will be around for me to draw I will most definitely give you a call before I buy anything. I would also like to chat about living in Alaska, which is where I plan to be in the next few years. Thanks again, -JB
Posted By: Vol423 Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/20/08 04:13 AM
Mr. Steele,

All of my case photos are prints and negatives, from my days when I was more active in making and restoring cases. I did take a lot of "before" and "during" photos that would be illustrative. I don't have a single example of completed cases, however, as I sold the guns that I cased for myself. I have one case I'm working on now, so I'll try to remember to take digital photos during the building process. If you have questions, I'd be glad to help. Just email or call. I sent you an email about Highwalls, so you may still have my contact information.
Posted By: oodmoff Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 09:18 AM
I just wanted to send out my appreciation for what looks to be a wonderful forum and simply say "thanks". I am a good 12 years older than 21 (so i am out of the running), but I have a passion for firearms which primarily centers around firearms that predate WWII. I have only recently started collecting single shots and am definitely intriged by not only the craftsmanship of the time period but of course too by the marksmanship. (Certainly there are some great craftsman and marksman today as well!) Whether it be at the range, home, or at a gun show or shop I have certainly drawn upon information provided by folks who are kind enough to share there knowledge and passion for firearms in forum such as this one. Its always nice to have another place to hang your hat.
Thanks
Darin

As far as a question.

I would think that most of us would agree that in addition to forums like this one, its necessary to read books to gain information whether it be for collecting, history, gunsmithing, reloading etc.

What are YOUR three or four must have books in your library that revolve around single shots?

Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 03:25 PM
In that list of books I would include books on the classic bolt guns.?? I thought I was out of bolt guns but this site has. Rekindled my interest. Smile. Whitey
Posted By: J.D.Steele Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 05:04 PM
Frank de Haas' Single Shot Rifles and Actions, Mister Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book and Bolt Action Rifles, Townsend Whelen's Mister Rifleman, James Grant's single shot series, Ned Roberts' & Ken Waters' breechloading single shot book, Michael Petrov's Custom Gunmakers of the 20th Century and Steve Hughes' Custom Rifles in Black and White. That's enough for a good start on both the aesthetics and the mechanics. Ned Roberts' earlier work on caplock target rifles was also a big influence for me. There are 40-50 more really top-drawer books but these are some of the ones I consider to be seminal.

My inclusion of Michael's and Steve's relatively recent works is not mere lip service to colleagues but rather is based upon my sincere opinion of the contents and their value to both existing and future enthusiasts. I only wish that these books contained more photos & descriptions of the frequently unique & fascinating details of the rifles' styling and mechanics, things like closeup shots of the Barney Worthen 1903 bolt lock or the Shelhamer grip strap for instance. This last comment is meant strictly as constructive criticism, my admiration for these books and their authors is tremendous and I await their next works eagerly.
Regards, Joe
Posted By: whitey Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 05:19 PM
Joe thanks for the info. Some I have the others I will get. Whitey
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 07:30 PM
"What are YOUR three or four must have books in your library that revolve around single shots?"

Darin, Welcome to the forum and looking forward to your participation.

Impossible to list just three or four single-shot books.

Again the the five James Grant books are a must have. Then all the Gerald Kelver I think there are five or six. I would get all three or four Roberts. And my pick of a Townsend Whelen book would be the 1918 "The American Rifle". This would be the core of any single-shot rifle study.

Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 08:38 PM
A few books for the Rifleman, this is not complete, up to date or entirely accurate.

Bibliography of Books for Rifleman
MP

“A”
Akehurst, Richard The World of Guns Hamlyn 1972
Akehurst, Richard Game Guns and Rifles
Akerhurst, Richard Sporting Guns Octopus 1972
Andrews, Roy Chapman Ends of the Earth Wolf 1929/1988
Aniger Firearms Blueing and Browning 1936
Askins, Charles Rifles & Rifle Shooting Macmillian 1912/1938
Askins, Charles The African Hunt Stackpole 1958
Austyn, Christopher Modern Sporting Guns 1994

“B”
Baird, John D. Hawken Rifles 1968 First
Baker Baker's Remarks on the Rifle Standard Pub 1835
Baker, Clyde Modern Gunsmithing 1933
Berman, Vladimir Masterpieces of Tula Gun-making Planeta-Moscow
Bevis, J.R./Donovan, Jno.A Modern Rifle Practical Exterior Ballistics 1917
Bourne, Richard A. Co. Karl F. Moldenhauer Collection Bourne 10-1980
Boutell Arms and Armour 1893
Brophy, W The Springfield 1903
Brophy, W Marlin Firearms
Burrard Notes on Sporting Rifles Edward Arnold Co. 1953
Butler U.S. Firarms 1776-1875 1971
Byron Gunmarks 1980

“C”
Campbell, C. S. The 03 Springfield
Canfield 03 Springfield
Carey, A. Merwyn English, Irish & Scottish Firearms Makers Arco 1967 $28.00
Carey, A. Merwyn American Firearms Makers
Carmichael, Jim The Modern Rifle 1975
Cary, Lucian Lucian Cary on Guns 1957
Cary, Lucian The New Lucian Cary on Guns Arco 1957 Hardback
Cary, Lucian Lucian Cary on Guns 1950
Cary, Lucian Antique Guns 1953
Caswell,John Sporting Rifles and Rifle Shooting Appleton 1920
John Chamberlain Early Loading Tool and Bullet Moulds Farm Tribune 1970
Chapel, Charles E. Gun Collecting Coward-McCann 1939
Chapel, Charles E. Guns of the Old West 1961
Cleveland Hints to a Rifleman
Cline Muzzle loading Then and Now
Corcoran, J. E. The Target Rifle in Australia 1860-1900 R&R Books 1995
Cowan, Sam K. Sergeant York and His People Funk & Wag 1922
Crossman, E.C. The Springfield Rifle
Crossman, E.C. Small Bore Rifle Shooting 1927
Crossman, E.C. Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting
Curtis, Paul A Jr. Sporting Firearms of Today in Use E.P. Dutton 1922
Curtis, Paul A. Captian Guns and Gunning Penn Pub Co. 1934 first
Curtis, Paul A. Jr. American Game Shooting E.P. Dutton 1927

“D”
Davis A Forgotten Heritage
De Hass, Mister Single Shot's Gunsmithing Idea Book
De Hass, Single Shot Rifles and Actions
De Hass, Bolt Action Rifles
Dexter, F.T. 35 Year Scrapbook Vol II 1947 Vol I &!! No. 1201
Dexter, F.T. 35 Year Scrapbook Vol I 1947 Vol I &!! No. 1201
Dixie 45-70 Trapdoor Springfields Dixie Collection Curley 1975
Dunlap Gunsmithing 1950
Dunlap, R.F. Ordnance Went Up Front 1948
Dutcher, John Ballard Book

“E”
Edwards Civil War Guns 1962

“F”
Farrow, Milton W. How I became a Crack Shot 1980 (1880)
Ferris C.S. The Rock Island 03 Ferris 1992 Paper
Flayderman Guide to American Firearms Vol III
Foral , James Gun Writers of Yesterday 1993
Frazer Elementary Gunsmithing 1938
Fuller, Claud E. The Rifled Musket
Fuller, Claud E. Breech-Loader in the Service 1816-1917 Flayderman 1965

”G”
Garavaglia-Worman Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 U of New Mexico
Gardner, Robert E. American Arms and Arms Makers 1938
Gardner, Robert E. Small Arms Makers
George, J. N.. English Guns and Rifles 1947
George, John B. Shots Fired in Anger NRA 1981 Reprint 14.00
Gluckman American Gunmakers
Gluckman U.S. Muskets, Rifles and Carbines 1965
Gooding, James S. The Canadian Gunsmiths 1608 to 1900
Gould, A.C. Modern American Rifles 1947
Grancsay-Lindsay Illustrated British Firearms Patents Winchester1969 781/1000
Grant, James J. Boys Single Shot Rifles 1967
Grant, James J. Single Shot Rifles 1967
Grant, James J. More Single Shot Rifles 1976
Grant, James J. Still More Single Shot Rifles
Grant, James J. Single Shot Rifle Finale
Greener W.W. Morden Breechloaders Sporting & Military Cassel 1874 23.50
Greener W.W. The Gun Niedner's

”H”
Hackely-Wooden History of Modern Small Arms Ammo Vol I 1967
Hamlyn The Worlds Great Guns Hamlyn Publishing 1977 10.00
Hanson The Plains Rifle
Harrison, G.C. The Gun Collector Magazine 1946-1957 Issue 18-48
Harrison, G.C. The Gun Collector Magazine 1947-1949 Issue 18-26
Hastings, MacDonald English Sporting Guns and Accessories Ward Lock 1969 16.00 2/96
Hatcher, Julian S. Hatcher's Notebook Stackpole 1966 29.95
Hatcher, Julian S. Hatcher's Book of the Garand Gun Room Press 1948/1977
Hayward The Art of the Gunmaker Vol I
Held, Robert The Age of Firearms 1957
Held, Robert Arms and Armor annul 1973 1973
Hermitage Fine Arms from Tula Aurora-Leningrad 1977
Herold, John S. Buxton's Guide Foreign Forearms Herold 1963 25.00
Hicks, James E. Our Arms and Weapons W.W. Norton 1941 3/96 $12.50
Hogg, Ian V. Guns and Gunsmiths Quarto 1977
Hornaday, William T. Camp-Fires in the Canadian Rockies Charles Scribner's 1906
Howe Professional Gunsmith
Howe The Amateur Gunsmith
Howe, James V. The Modern Gunsmith Vol II 1941
Howe, James V. The Modern Gunsmith Vol I 1941
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1889-1900 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1867-1876 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1916-1930 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1877-1888 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1909-1915 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1901-1908 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hoyem, George Patents for Inventions Small Arms 1855-1866 Armory Publications 1993 $225.00 (7 Vol)
Hughes, Steven Dodd, Custom Rifles in Black and White
Hull, Edward A. Providence Tool Co. Military Arms 1979
Hull, Edward A. The Burnside Breech Loading Carbines Mowbray 1986
Hutslar, Donald A. Gunsmiths of Ohio 1973

”J”
Jacobs, Charles R. Offical Gun Book Crown Publishing 1950 First Ed.
James, Edsall The Golden Age of the SS Rifle 1974
James, Edsall The Revolver Rifles 1974
Jennings, Bruce Charles Newton Father of High Velocity 1985
Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns Morrow 1944
Johnson, Curtis L. Illinois Gunsmiths Geo. Shumw 1982 Paper
Johnson-Haven Automatic Arms 1941

”K”
Kauffman, H.J. Early American Gunsmith
Kauffman, H.J. The Gunsmith Century House 1959 paper
Kauffman, H.J. The Pennslyvania-Kentucky Rifle
Keith, Elmer Elmer Keith's Big Game Hunting 1954 28.00
Keith, Elmer Keith Autobiography Winchester Press 1974 20.00
Keith, Elmer Keith's Rifles for Big Game
Keith, Elmer Big Game Rifles and Cartridges
Keith, Elmer Hell I Was There Peterson Pub. 1979
Keith, Elmer Guns & Ammo for Hunting Big Game Petersen Pub 1965
Kelver, Gerald 15 Years on the Western Frontier
Kelver, Gerald Freund and the Sharps Rifle
Kelver, Gerald Major Ned Roberts and the Schuetzen Rifle 1951
Kelver, Gerald 100 Years of Shooters and Makers of SS Rifles
Kelver, Gerald Single-Shot Rifle Notes
Kelver, Gerald Reloading Tools, Sights & Telescopes for SS Rifles
Kelver, Gerald Schuetzen Rifles History and Loading
Kennedy, Monty Checkering and Carving of Gunstocks Samworth 1952
Kindig, J. Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age George Shumway 1960/76
Kirkland, K.D. American Premier Gunmakers: Remington Exeter books 1988
Kirkland, K.D. American Premier Gunmakers: Browning 1989

”L”
Lachuk, John, Frank A. Pachmayr
Lancaster, Charles The Art of Shooting McCorquodale 1889/1962
Landis, C.S. .22 Cal Varmit Rifles
Landis, C.S. Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles
Landis, C.S. Hunting With the Twenty-Two SATPCo 1950 22.00
Landis, C.S. Riflecraft Sportsman's Digest 1925 27.00
Landis, C.S. The Shooter's Guide Hercules Powder co. 1925 15.00
Landis, C.S. .22 Cal Rifle Shooting
Lee, Kenneth F. Big Game Hunting & Marksmanship SATPCo 1941 First 16.00
Lentz Muzzle Flashes
Lentz, Ellis, C Rifleman's Progress Standard 1946
Lewis, B.R. Small Arms Ammo in the International expo 1876 1972
Lewis, B.R. Small Arms Ammunition in the U.S. Service
Linden, Alvin Firearm Design & Assembly Springfield 1941
Linden, Alvin Firearm Design & Assembly Mod. 70 1958
Lister Antique Firearms
Liu American Sporting Collectors 1976
Logan, Herschel C. Underhammer Guns 1965
Logan, Herschel C. Cartridges
Logan, Herschel C. Buckskin and Satin Stackpole 1954
Logan, Herschel C. Hand Cannon to Automatic
Lugs, Jaroslav A History of Shooting Hamlyn Hou 1968

”M”
Madis The Winchester Book 1971
Mahrholdt, Richard Waffen-Lexikon Mayer 1963
Mahrholdt, Richard Waffen-Lexikon Mayer 1952
Mahrholdt, Richard Waffen-Lexikon Mayer 1937
Mallory, F.B. Serial Number Vol I II III
Mallory, F.B. DMC Rifle Sales 1922-1942 Springfield Research 1976 Paper
Mann, F.W. The Bullets Flight 1942-48-80
Marksman Dead Shot American News Company 1873
Mattern, J.R. Handloading Ammunition 1926
Mauser The Original Mauser Magazine Sporting Rifle Stoeger 1964
McBride, H.W. A Rifleman Went to War SATPCo. 1935 DJ
McFarland Gunsmithing Simplifield 1950
McFarland, Earl Textbook of Ordanace and Gunnery John Wiley &sons 1929
McIntosh, M. The BIg Bores
Metschl, J. R.J. Nunnemecher Collection
Miller, Martin The Collectors Illustrated Guied to Firearms
Myatt Modern Small Arms 1978
Myatt, F. Major 19th Century Firearms Cresent Books 1979
Naramore Handloaders Manual Samworth 1937
Naramore Principles and Pratice of Handloading 1954

”N”
Neal and Back The Maton Supplement
Ness, F.C. Practical Dope on the Big Bores Wolf 1984 620/1500
Ness, F.C. Practical Dope On The .22 Stackpole 1950 17.50
Newell, A. Donald Gunstock Fnishing and Care Samworth 1949
Nobili, Marco E. Best Guns
Nobili, Marco E. Modern Engraving Real Book
North Book of Guns and Gunsmiths
Note Modern Handloading 1976

”O”
O'Connor, Jack Sportsman's Encyclopedia Outdoor Life 1947/49
O'Connor, Jack Hunting Rifle Winchester 1970
O'Connor, Jack Jack O'Connor's Big Game Hunts Outdoor Life 1963
O'Connor, Jack The Big Game Rifle Safari Press 1952/1994
O'Connor, Jack Horse and Buggy West Knopf 1969
O'Connor, Jack The Best of Jack O'Connor Amwell Press 1977
O'Connor, Jack Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns Outdoor Life 1961/1965
O'Connor, Jack Arms and Amuunition Manual Outdoor Life 1952 1st.
O'Connor, Jack The Art of Hunting Big Game Outdoor Life 1967
O'Connor, Jack Game in the Desert Revisited Amwell Press 1984 O'Connor, Jack Complete Book of Shooting Outdoor Life 1965
O'Connor, Jack The Rifle Book Knopf 1964
Oliver's Jack Appel Collection 5-1989
Olson, Ludwig Mauser Bolt rifles Brownells 1976
Outdoor Life American Hunting and Firearms Time Mirro 1976


“P”
Pacific Gun Sight Co. Gun Sights Reloading Tools Pacific 1943
Page, Warren The Accurate Rifle Winchester 1973
Penrose Catalog Of Firearms Muesum Victoria 1949
Peterson The Great Guns 1971
Peterson Guns of the World
Peterson Pagent of the Gun 1967
Peterson Guns of the Gunfighters
Peterson Guns and Ammo Blackpowder
Peterson Basic Gun Repair
Peterson, H.L. Encyclopedia Of Firearms 1964
Peterson, H.L. The Remington Historical Treasur 1966
Peterson, Harold L. A History Of Firearms CharlesScribner's 1961
Petrov, Michael Custom Gunmakers of the 20th Century
Petzal The Expert's Book of Shooting Sports 1972
Popp, Von. H. Waffenkunde und Schiesslehre fur Jager Neumann-Neudamm 1966
Pourie, DeWitt R. Gateway Gunsmiths 1990 Paper
Preuss, Albert Jagerwaffen Neumann-Neudamm 1930
Prichard, Hesketh Sniping In France Lancer Military Reprint
Pulling, Pierre Game and the Gunner Winchester 1973 8.00 2/96

“R”
Rae, William E. A Treasury of Outdoor Life 1982
Ramage, K.C. Lyman Centennail Journal 1878-1978 1978
Remiger, Leo Enclopedia of Bufflo Hunters & Skinners
Remiger, Leo Enclopedia of Bufflo Hunters & Skinners Vol E-K
Richards, Westley Catalog 1912
Riling, R. The Powder Flask Book
Roberts and Waters Breechloading SS Rifle
Roberts, Ned H. Muzzeloading Caplock Rifles
Robinson, Beverley W. With Shotgun & Rifle in North American Game Fields D. Appleton Co. 1925
Roosevelt, T.R. African Game Trails 1995
Rosa-May The Pleasure of the Gun 1974
Rule, Roger C. The Rifleman's Rifle Kokin 1996
Russell, Carl P. Guns on the Early Frontiers Barnes & Noble 1996
Russell, Carl P. Firearms Traps and Tools of the Mountian Men 1967
Russell, Carl P. Guns on the Early Frontier
Rywell, M. Sharps Rifle
Rywell, M. American Antique Guns Pioneer Press 1968 Paper

“S”
Salisbury, Howard M. Duck Guns, Shooting & Decoying Crown 1967 First 9.50
Saterlee 14 Old Gun Catalogs 1953
Saterlee 10 Old Gun Catalogs 1953
Satterlee, L.D. Catalog of Firearms Self 1939 51/200
Sawyer, Charles W. Firearms in American History Vol I Sawyer 1910
Sawyer, Charles W. Firearms in American History Vol II
Sawyer, Charles W. Our Rifles Cornhill 1920
Schroeder Arms of the World 1911
Schwartz-Dell The Modern Schuetzen Rifle 1995 #196/300
Sellers Sharps Firearms 1982
Sellers American Gunsmiths
Serven, James E. The Collecting of Guns
Serven, James E. Rare and Valuable Antique Arms 1976
Serven, James E. Americans and Their Guns
Serven, James E. 200 Years of American Firearms 1974
Shaffer-Rutledge-Dorsey Gun Tools Collectors 1992
Sharp Complete Guide to Handloading 1947
Sharpe The Rifle in America 1953
Sharps Catalog Sharps Catalog 1859 Paper/Reprint
Shelton California Gunsmiths
Sherlock, H.A. Black Powder Snapshots 1946
Short, Richard D. Firearms for Collectors & Shooters Catalog
Simmons, Richard F. Wildcat Cartridges 1947
Simmons, Richard F. Custom Built Rifles 1949
Smith Small Arms of the World 1969
Smith The Story of Pope Barrels 1960
Smith W.H.B. A Basic Manual of Military Small Arms Military Service Publishi 1943/1944
Smith, W.H.B. A Basic Manual of Military Small arms Military Service Pub 1943/1944 paper
Smith, W.O. The Sharps Rifle
Smith, Walter H.B. Mauser Rifles and Pistols 1950
Smith-Smith The Book of Rifles 1963
Snyder, Harry Col. Snyder's Book of Big Game Hunting Greenberg 1950 Auto-
Speed, Jon Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles
Stebbins Small Game and Varmite Rifles
Stebbins Rifles a Modern Encyclopedia
Stebbins, Henry Your Big Game Rifle Combat Forces 1952
Stelle & Harrison Gunsmithing Manual 1945
Stroble, Nick, Old Gunsights
Stroble, Nick , Old RifleScopes
Stone A Glossary of Arms and Armour
Stumpf, Manford Waffen Almanach Stoytscheff 1960?
Suydam, Chas R. The American Cartridge 1960
Swenson, G.W.P. Pictorial History of the Rifle Bonanza 1972

“T”
Taylor, John Big Game and Big Game Rifles Safari Press 1993
Taylor, John Pondoro 1955
Taylor, John African Rifles and Cartridges 1960
Teasdale-Buckell, G.T. Experts on Guns and Shooting Buckskin Press 1900/1981 #37/200
Thomas Allen and Wheelock Firearms
Treadwell, Major T.J. Metallic Cartridges, at Frankford Arsenal Pioneer Press 1873 Reprint
Trench, Charles, C. A History of Marksmanship Exeter books 1972
Truesdell, S.R. The Rifle It's Development for Big Game Hunting Military Service Publishi 1947
Tryon, T.B. The Complete Rehabilition of the Flintlock Rifle Limbo Library 1972 Paper

“U”
U.S. Cartridge Co. Where to Hunt American Game USCC 1898
U.S. Cartridge Co. Collection of Firearms

“V”
Vickery Advanced Gunsmithing 1940

“W”
Waite-Ernst Trapdoor Springfield 1980
Walker Hobby Gunsmithing
Wallack, L.R. Modern Accuracy in Bench Rest Greenberg 1951
Wandrus, Harry The Hobbies Firearms Index 1948
War Deparment TM9-270 M1903A4 Sniper Rifle War Department 1943
Waterman, C.F. The Treasury of Sporting Guns Random House 1979 3/96
Whelen, Townsend The American Rifle 1918 Niedner's
Whelen, Townsend The Ultimate in Rifle Precision Sportsmans Press 1951
Whelen, Townsend Small Arms Design & Ballistics Vol I Samworth 1945
Whelen, Townsend Why Not Load your Own
Whelen, Townsend "Handbook & Catalog ""National Target& Supply" NT&Sco. 1938
Whelen, Townsend Small Arms Design & Ballistics Vol II Samworth 1946
Whelen, Townsend Small Bore Rifle Handbook 1936 7.50
Whelen, Townsend Amateur Gunsmithing NRA 1924 35.00
Whelen, Townsend Mister Rifleman 1961
Whelen, Townsend the Care and Cleaning of Modern firearms Conveversion Products 1922
Whelen, Townsend The Ultimate in Rifle Precision 1954
Whelen, Townsend Telescopes 1944
Whelen, Townsend On your own in the Wilderness 1973
Whelen, Townsend Wilderness Hunting and Loading 1927
Whelen, Townsend Hunting Big Game Vol II Military Service 1946
White, Stewart Edward The Blazed Trail Grosset&Dunlap 1902 1st
White, Stewart Edward The Rediscovered Country Wolfe 1914 1/1000
White, Stewart Edward The Land of Footprints Wolfe 1912 1/1000
White-Munhall Cartridge Headstamp Guide 1963
Wilkinson, F. Flintlock Guns and Rifles Stackpole 1971
Wilkinson, F. Small Arms 1966
Wilkinson, Frederick The World's Great Guns Hamlyn 1977
Williams, Jay Alaskan Adventure Stackpole 1952
Williamson, Harold F. Winchester Barnes 1952
Wilson, R.L. Antique Arms Annual Waco, TX 1971
Wilson, R.l. Winchester
Winant, Lewis Firearms Curiosa
Winant, Lewis Early Percussion Firearms Bonanza 1959
Wirnslerger, G. The Standard Directory of Proof Marks
Wolfe, D. The Art of Bullet Casting 1981
Wolff Master Index Handloader 1987 Paper
Wolff E. G. Ballard Rifles in the H.J. Nunnemacher Collection North American Pess 1961 Paper
Wolley, Clive-Phillipps Big Game Shooting Vol I Longman's, Green 1894
Wolley, Clive-Phillipps Big Game Shooting Vol II Longman's, Green 1894
Woroniecki, Thomas Guns Vol III No. 1 1-1948
Worthington, T. Manual of Arms 1861 Reprint

Posted By: oodmoff Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 09:04 PM
Thanks Michael, that's quite a list. Certainly gives me something to "shoot" for.

I quess in asking the question I failed to answer it.
Since only recently starting out in the single shot world, with my primarly interest in Marlin-Ballards and Stevens singles, mine have been: Grant's Books, Brophy's Marlin Book, Dutchers Ballard Book, Dehass' Single Shots & Actions.

Thanks again,
sincerly no longer lurking...
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 10:59 PM
Thanks much, Joe.
Posted By: mriisj Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/21/08 11:37 PM
MP Why the Whelen, Townsend The American Rifle 1918 and not the 1923 or another reprint, is there something special about the 1918 release?

Michael
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/22/08 05:37 AM
Originally Posted By: mriisj
MP Why the Whelen, Townsend The American Rifle 1918 and not the 1923 or another reprint, is there something special about the 1918 release?

Michael


I have no idea! I have Mr. Niedner's copy and a reading copy and never felt the need to get a later edition. Maybe I should check one out and see if there is new info.

Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/22/08 04:29 PM
Mike, I noticed the lack of Campbells THE WINCHESTER SINGLE SHOT.

Any specific reason or an oversight?

Rob
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: An invitation to Lurkers* - 12/22/08 06:01 PM
Years ago I started a database of all my books and would add to the database as I acquired a book. Several years ago my system fell apart,laziness on my part. There are many many books on rifles not listed. Sitting right next to me is a copy of Rowe's "Alte Scheibenwaffen" that's not on the list. it would be fun to put together a REAL list of books on rifles not just the few I have. Anyone up to the job, if so you can start with what's listed.

PS: I just noticed that The Rifle & Shooting and Fishing is not listed, this is the weekly magazine (reprinted) from 1885-1906.
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