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Posted By: Michael Petrov H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/21/09 05:47 AM
Has anyone ever seen a Pope that was unmarked?
Posted By: george_schoyen Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/21/09 03:39 PM
How would you know since there have been numerous copiers over the years. I have seen one Pope that was marked under the forearm and not on top but that is not really your question is it.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/21/09 06:32 PM
The reason for the question is yesterday I was taking photos of a friends Scheutzen rifle. It's a Stevens 44, originaly the caliber was 32-40 now it's a .33-40 with false muzzle, it is without question a Pope barrel but his name is not on the barrel, top or bottom.

Posted By: Alvin Linden #1 Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/21/09 09:38 PM
MICHAEL: Any chance the barrel had to be turned on a lathe after it was re bored to .33. I notice the flats looked a little larger than usual, compared to the rest of the barrel. Just a thought! GREAT LOOKING RIFLE! Warmest Regards Jerry
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 04:12 AM
Jerry, The barrel is still marked Stevens and the original caliber.
Posted By: clowdis Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 06:59 PM
Didn't Schalk cut the same rifling style as Pope?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 07:17 PM
Does Pope rifling = a Pope barrel = a Pope rifle?

In any event that is about as pretty as a Stevens can get in my opinion. If she shoots like she looks, I'd not want to compete against it.

Seems like everyone and their brother has a Pope something.

I have Pope rifling in a muzzleloader barrel but I don't call it a Pope rifle.

Brent
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 09:34 PM
Yes, a rifle with a barrel made by Pope is a "Pope" Rifle.

The rifle pictured in this thread does not have Pope "Type" or Pope "Style" rifling it was made by Pope and is a Pope barrel, it's just not marked with his name and I have not seen this before.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 10:04 PM
Then how do you know it was made by Pope? I don't understand.

When Pope worked at Stevens, how many barrels did he actually make and fit to rifles personally?

Brent
PS. I have a couple of Badger/Stallman Sharps' and a Lilja lowwall, a Douglas Borchardt
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 10:58 PM
You guys lost me on this one, I have a Pope barrel, I know this because it's marked H. M. Pope, and I have the Target for the barrel that's signed and dated by him. I may have a lot of other Pope stuff but it's not marked Pope. Please help, how do I know if I have Pope stuff if it's not marked Pope ?.
ST
Posted By: Kutter Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/22/09 10:58 PM
Isn't it a Stevens made barrel that was (possibly) rebored/rerifled by Pope?,,as opposed to a 'barrel made by Pope'?

Not that it would be any less quality than a barrel he made from scratch. Splitting hairs perhaps,,but I'd think the two would be different catagorys of his work when it comes to what he actually made. The purveyors of all things Pope most likely see it differently I suppose.

At any rate w/o a name on it, it's one experts opinion against the others as to who rifled it. Kind of like sorting out all those unmarked but 'attributed to' engraved pieces by Kornbrath and Nimschke. Everyone seems to have one for sale somewhere.

Pope or not,,that is a fantastic looking Stevens rifle!
Great photography as always.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 12:36 AM
Well, we seem to be going in a circle and I'm not sure how to better explain myself. S.R. Griffin marked a very few of his stocks and I can tell at a glance if a stock was made by him marked or not. This barrel was rifled by Pope when he worked in Hartford and I'm not 99% sure, I'm positive. That may sound like BS but I can tell by looking. I sent a email to Warren Greatbatch and I'll see if he can sort it out.
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 05:23 PM
Michael, as you know, I've collected Pope and other custom barrel makers' work for nearly 50 years. I have one unsigned Pope, at least I am convinced that is what it is. I have a couple of rifles like the 44 Stevens where Pope has recut someone else's barrel. Those are marked "Rifled by H M Pope". These carry his "code lines" under the fore end, just as his complete barrels do.

Within the past 30 or so years, a number of barrel makers have offered barrels cut in Pope's style. These are going to present future identification problems as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 07:30 PM
Thanks Terry, that now makes two unsigned Pope barrels. Now I wounder why they were not signed. As meticulous as Pope was he sure as heck did not "Forget" to mark them so there had to be another reason.

Depending on how you look at it I'm down to (or up) a Hartford-Pope .33-40, Stevens-Pope .38-72 and Jersey City Pope .30-06.
Posted By: dlaw Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 08:16 PM
I realize this is somewhat off topic, but how common are Pope barrels chambered for 22 long rifle?
Posted By: grogel Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 08:41 PM
I would be interested in knowing how to Identify a unmarked Pope barrel, with photos I cant help but think that the number of people who can identify a unmarked Pope barrel is quite small.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 09:24 PM
Originally Posted By: grogel
I would be interested in knowing how to Identify a unmarked Pope barrel, with photos I cant help but think that the number of people who can identify a unmarked Pope barrel is quite small.


I think anyone who has spent any time around Pope barrels could easily identify a Pope barrel marked or not. I would not have any idea how to post photos that would help. About thirty-five years ago when I became interested in the schuetzen rifle I thought that I might study the work of men like Niedner, Pope, Zischange, Schoyen and other barrel makers. I traveled when I could and viewed different collections and any big show that would have a lot of Schuetzen rifles. The turning point or I should say when other things took my interest was a trip to Gerald Kelvers. Do you have a copy of "Respectfully Yours, H.M. Pope" by Kelver? If so look at the rifle on page 14 & 225.
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 10:16 PM
In answer to "How common are .22 LR Pope barrels?", I have kept track of the ones I have either owned or considered buying over the years. 8/18 H M Pope barrels were .22 rimfire, it looks as if one of those was actually .22 short as the twist was 1:25. Stevens Pope .22s are a little less frequent with 6/24 .22 rim, again with one a short. The percentages seem reasonable to me given that the Stevens Pope barrels are from the early 1900s while Pope continued making barrels for several more decades. My "most recent" was made in 1935, but I am sure there are others made later than that. I have yet to find one on a Winchester 52, but they must exist.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 11:25 PM
Does that count your S&W?
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/23/09 11:31 PM
My Friends Pope-Stevens in .22 Short.
Posted By: Don Moody Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 12:05 AM
My first wife's uncle had a Pope barreled Winchester High Wall Scheutzen rifle in Win .32-40 with the false muzzle and all. It was a joy to shoot. I sure wish I could have gained possession of that rifle. It had belonged to, and ordered by, his father-in-law who lived in Aspen, Colorado at the time.
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 12:08 AM
SDH: I forgot that one as it is just marked "H. M. Pope" but not serialized and coded with twist and manufacturing date, so it is not in my numbers list. Its a good thing I have friends with better memories!

So, revise my numbers to 9/19, and it looks as if almost half the H M Pope barrels are .22 rim and about one quarter of the Stevens Pope barrels are. When Warren's books come out, we'll have much larger samples and thus much better precision on this data.
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 12:47 AM

The Pope 22 LR that I have is an S&W, it's marked H. M. Pope on top of the barrel and there are two fired targets with it signed by H. M. Pope. Sept. 13, 1913, one is a 55 Shot target and the other is a 10 shot target. The targets are numbered
4428-688. It's been awhile since I shot it but I don't think the barrel is marked with any code, twist rate, or Mfg. date.
ST
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 03:00 AM
My Hartford Pope. Lets see some of those Popes!


Posted By: SDH-MT Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 03:47 AM
Originally Posted By: Set-Trigger

The Pope 22 LR that I have is an S&W, it's marked H. M. Pope on top of the barrel and there are two fired targets with it signed by H. M. Pope. Sept. 13, 1913, one is a 55 Shot target and the other is a 10 shot target. The targets are numbered
4428-688. It's been awhile since I shot it but I don't think the barrel is marked with any code, twist rate, or Mfg. date.
ST

WOW, is that a 2nd Model single shot? We might have to start a new thread with photos! Eh, Terry?
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 03:54 PM
Terry,
It's a third model S&W single shot. I do have pictures of the barrel and both targets but the last time I put up pictures on the site it took me all day to figure it out. I can e mail them to you or anyone that would want to up load them to the site.

I'll pull it out of the vault later today or tomorrow and check for sure to see if it has any code, twist rate, or Mfg. date but like I said before I don't think there is any.

If your keeping records on these Pope barrel numbers I have four other S&W numbers that may be helpful, let me know if you can use them and I'll dig them up also but # 4428 - 688 is the only one with the targets.
ST
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 04:27 PM
Set-Trigger-shooter & Terry,
You can email to me and I'll post.
sdh AT montana Dot net
I'll see if I can photograph and post my own custom (non-Pope) 3rd Model today.
Best,
Steve
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 05:49 PM
Will do Steve,
I have to take the wife out to eat, something about it being our 50th Anniversary today, thank god I wont have to do this again for another 50 years. ;-), I'll try to send them to you this afternoon before we leave.
ST
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 06:41 PM
Here is my H M Pope 1891 Smith & Wesson in its case with the gold medal from the 1908 Olympics. This pistol belonged to J E Gorman of San Francisco, who was the Captain of the U.S. Team. Engraving by the late Lynton McKenzie.

Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 06:47 PM
Here it is with all the lids removed to show the extra barrel, extra grips, Stevens Pope ammo, small ivory box with front sight inserts, and the small "turn screws".

Posted By: J.D.Steele Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 11:38 PM
Terry, I salute you! I've long been an enthusiastic user of early S&Ws, the 1891 in particular, and yours is undoubtedly the most desirable setup I've ever seen or heard of!
Regards, Joe
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/24/09 11:52 PM
Terry are both grips by MM? Lovely set I enjoyed playing with it at Reno.
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 01:29 AM
I should ask Monte. I remember both James Tucker and Monte Mandarino being involved with the grips - perhaps one carved them, the other did the checkering. Both are master craftsmen; either could have done the whole project.

Did you notice the Niedner, Malden marked pistol on the other thread? I assume the liner and trigger modifications are his work. You probably owned it longer than I have; any thoughts?
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 04:44 AM
Well for what's worth I was never able to find it in his shop books. The story with it, which I could never prove one way or the other was that it was Niedner's. A picture to follow.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 04:49 AM
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 08:58 PM
Anyone care to guess what the little rifle is just to the right of the center divider? The one with the short barrel. I think I have the others figured out but that one has been somewhat of a mystery.

The S&W Revolver is .44 Russian he carried out West.
The Colt is the one he found on the skeleton in a cave in Colorado.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 09:14 PM
A weird Hepburn? I have no real clue except that it appears to have a side lever. I don't think it is a hammer and there are not many side lever rifles to pick from.

Brent
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 09:40 PM
That was one of my guesses, and a good as one as any.

Starting from the right a rifle with a false-muzzle and bullet starter but I have no idea which one.

Borchardt-Pope 38-72

Maynard Creedmoor 44-100

No. 6 Ballard .22 LR

No. 6 Ballard .32-40

Ballard Union Hill .38-55

Hepburn????

Auto shotgun

A Krag carbine?

Unknown

Unknown

1924 Niedner rifle Shelhamer stock

Unknown with Shelhamer stock.

Rest unknown.

I won't ever start on what's in the drawers.
Posted By: SDH-MT Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 11:16 PM
The S&W .44 looks like a double-action.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/25/09 11:42 PM
Steve, I don't know if it is or not I pulled the file and I don't have that info. The owner died several years ago and no one knows what happen to the pistol or the papers he had, some historical stuff gone missing.

Likewise the owner of the Colt died and his stuff went to auction and the Colt's whereabouts are unknown to me today.

This stuff vanishes then appears for a short time then gone again. It's amazing how many times the provenance does not accompany the rifle or pistol.
Posted By: Set-Trigger Re: H.M. Pope Queston? - 06/26/09 12:27 AM
Looks like a 10 inch barrel third model single shot to me, look close at the grips, has some kind of medallion and they seem to cover the butt. Also I don't know of any S&W 44 Russian with a barrel that long or one with what looks like medallion grips.
ST
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