Do you really want to know?
While working on research I sometime find out more than I think readers want or need to know about the people I write about. I learned about the last minutes of Tom Shelhamer in a phone conversation. I have a two page single spaced letter from Alvin Lindens brother-law telling about the last hours of Linden’s life and how he found him on the shop floor. One gunmaker had a string of wives and a many children. More than one had a ongoing battle with the bottle.
For the most part I leave this kind of information out but after a few folks heard about the Linden info they all wanted copies. If a gunmaker dies early in life I try to include the reason. Where does historical information stop and bad taste begin? It’s become obvious to me that some people what to know more than I have been comfortable in providing. I made a copy of an A.O. Niedner taped interview available to the ASSRA, he had some strong feeling about another famous gunsmith a held back nothing, If it ever is transcribed I would be interest to see if it gets edited.
My outlook has been don’t write anything about someone I would not want written about myself. What say you?

Michael;
Seems like the most talented people always have their vices and demons. Writers, artists, craftsmen etc. Never have claimed to be any of the above, but Lord knows I have plenty of my own.
Everyone I have ever known who was a master at what they did, had one or most of the qualities you mention..... Being opinionated, a weakness for women and pulling a cork, etc. etc.
I say this with no disrespect, as these were people whom I respected and even idolized (many I still do). Always figured that guys who can maintain that level of concentration and dicipline need to "let the badger loose" more often than most....
I for one would love to read about what these legends were really like, and I bet they would all laugh like hell it you were to write about it.
Respectfully;
Kraft

i am interested in there work.training,shop equipment, where a style came from, big influence on the guns they made.not so much the personal life.except j.v. Howe whats up with this guy never stayed anywhere very long.mc

Michael, you probably already know that I try to live my life by The Golden Rule. At the same time, however, the truth is hardly ever A Bad Thing, really. There are things I've done that would be awkward or embarassing if told while I was still alive and if presented in an adversarial manner, but I hardly think that you, Michael, would exhibit such crudity. IMO it would be interesting for the rest of us to be told a little more about the folks who have brought us all so much artistic accomplishment to admire, while at the same time making no attempt either to sensationalize or to minimize their behavior. A perfect example in my mind is Harry Pope, I'd absolutely love to hear more about his rudeness and estrangement from some of his family. Another famous curmudgeon and supposed heavy toper was James V. Howe who apparently couldn't get along with anyone for very long but who IMO produced some of the best gunsmithing and gunsmithing writing ever done before WW2. Further insights into these gunsmiths' characters and histories via authors' accounts of their behaviors is IMO quite appropriate if given no more space than any other non-firearms-related facts told about their lives. JMOFWIW, and I'm really looking forward to your next compilation!
Best, Joe

I live in a land where everyone speaks no evil in public (but plenty in private). Hence, one gets no idea of the context of a situation. I don't have much truck with that, and I fall in Joe's camp that way (and a bunch of others).

To simply say, so and so succumbed early due to the perils of the bottle or whatever is fine. No need to embellish it a whole bunch, but call it like it is. If so and so hates so and so, and somehow that is relevant, and it sounds like it is, then saying so simply and moving on is quite reasonable. To edit it out is dishonest. Dwelling on trash talk like, for instance, modern sports news does today, is stupid and an insult to the readers. But knowing the basic lay of the land is probably informative relative to how a guy does his work and - for that matter - doesn't do his work.

In the 10 yrs or so that I have been paying closer attention it seems to me that gunsmiths have a higher rate of anti-social issues than some other people grouped by profession. I do not know if that is true, but the problems that I, and others, have encountered are seemingly as endless as they are unnecessary. Makes me wonder why, or if it is really the case, but so be it. Without data, we can never even begin to guess.

There are a lot of biographies out there, and that is effectively what you are talking about. Look at the best biographers and the best biographies of well know people. They all include the bad with the good but without titillation or embellishment. Just enough to let us know who the person was and what his or her life might have been like. That's all you can hope for in a good biography.

Brent

It is all a part of appreciating what these people accomplished. The trials and tribulations that they worked through to do the work that they did only enhances the enjoyment we get from collecting their work. I think anything you did would be in good taste. You have had the oppertunity, through your hard work and dedication, to be exposed to more knowledge about these old master than most of us will ever dream of. You have no obligation to share any of this knowledge with any of us, but we are all forever grateful that you have chosen to do so.

John

PS, I would love to know any Shelhamer details.

The firearms these men made are wonderful objects of art and beautifully functional tools. However many factory rifles today are handsome, some as handsome as the old master's. The difference is the history. Someone sweated over the inletting and getting the lines of the butt and forearm just right and each rifle is unique, often as unique and idiosyncratic as the men that made them. I want to know these men better. We all have our warts. I have friends with problems with alcohol, relationships, money, etc. But they are still friends. I feel the same about these gunsmiths. I agree with J. D., Brent, gasgunner and others and trust your instincts in the matter.

Jerry Liles

From what I've seen of genius level coworkers, the line between genius and madness is sometimes razor thin. I think that for those struggling to walk that line, that knowing they are not alone in their struggles helps. Write as much as you think appropriate, we will trust in your judgment.

I don't have the knowledge to engage in the larger issues here. But one thing I have long wondered about is if there is a correlation between the almost standard-issue "touchiness" of old-time gunsmiths and hearing loss.

Untreated hearing loss often causes emotional problems, especially in us silverbacks who are touchy and somewhat isolated anyway, and I wonder if it sometimes led to talented guys who constitutionally didn't suffer fools gladly getting to the point where they could suffer almost nobody gladly?

Just a thought from someone who has been around a while but has no other related expertise (But I do remember when we would all shoot a 4 3/4" .32-20 Colt or a 3 5/8" 7.65mm Luger all afternoon with no ear protection....not to mention .220 Swifts.).

Mr. Petrov - I check in here every day, but don't recall ever posting - so I'll thank you for your incredible dedication as historian of an era. On the topic of "details", I think it's best to publish them, so each of us can decide if we want to know, and read if we so choose. Unlike the AR responders, the folks here seem to recognize the distinction between gossip and history. The men you write about are not mere gunmakers, they're artistic pioneers in the field, and details count. To understand van Gogh, and his art, without recognizing his mental illness [the "ear story"] would be impossible! Often these men seemed to sacrifice a "normal life" to achieve what they did, and recognizing that is part of recognizing their accomplishments.

To be a bit blunt on the subject at hand, I feel that all of the people who would be personally affected or offended by a full expose of an early custom gunsmith's weaknesses are long gone. A full airing of the sources of such an expose would take much of the "blame" from the author. Go for it Michael. By the way, I would go farther than across the street to hear the Niedner tape. Murphy

I prefer to see the old Masters humanized. Flesh out the bio's and make them real. Like others have said, when describing the man's warts use tact and compassion but don't leave the warts off of the portrait.

i often amaze at how tolerant we are of each other. not to mention forgiven. but for the grace of god goes me.

Good question,Mike.

In my work as a furniture restorer/conservator,and during the seminars,classes,and professional gatherings which that process has entailed, there have been many memorable characters in whom ego and near megalomania seemed to nearly overrun the real talent that lay beneath the human crust.

Competitiveness, inability to relate to other people, poor social skills, just plain ol' nasty person, substance problems, big fish in little pond, fanatic belief in one's own superior and unique abilities, over-exalted pride in one's own craft skills, and on and on -- the whole catalog of flawed personalities with whom we are all familiar in one context or another.

Are such things interesting? In a clinical sort of way, they may help round out the picture of a person and their achievements. Do I feel a need to know of other people's feet of clay? Prob'ly not - unless they are my competitor!! ;~`) & LOL.

I would say that for whatever reason, individually motivated people who practice a skill requiring a limited amount of human contact are probably doing just that, because they are comfortable in that context. A file is either sharp, or it isn't. No argument, no nuances, no negotiation -- it cuts suitable to the task or it doesn't. Chisel, scraper,sandpaper and the results are quantifiable. People are not.

However, given all of the above, in my profession I have met very few craft folks with whom it's all bad, all the time. There can be common ground if you are willing to look for and cultivate it, but that is generally in non-monetary uncompetitive terms. Then, there are individuals who are like some little mountain fice dog that just natcherlly gotta hump yer leg, so ingrained is their inability to cede any recognition of another's skills.

I guess that in answer to y'r question, warts are publishable, for the purpose of illuminating the person's career, skills, and output. I know that you would use such background no more than necessary, and in good taste.

Now, an anecdote. Some years ago a very important American wing chair went to auction and fetched in some millions. A prestigious museum facility received the contract for conservation and 'detachable' museum upholstery. The question of "what was the original upholstery layout?" brought together in one room, some twenty or so of leading experts, museum staff, and others of the chattering class.

After considerable examination of the multiple overlaying tack holes, and speculation, it seemed that about all of the group was leaning toward one conclusion. Across the exam table was one man, well known in the longrifle community, with landmark publications about Southern furniture. His work is strongly based on the tell-tales of work marks and techniques that a craftsman leaves on his work.

The argument see-sawed for a while, and finally he cried out in exasperation to the 'consensus', "Can't you just SEE it?". To him, the evidence was right there, and easily readable to his exceptional eye and mind. As my witness of the incident related to me, "There he was on one side of the table, and there they all were on the other side. I'd say it was just about an even match."

To such a person, from whom I have taken a carving course, and listened to in some few lectures, I am willing cede a great many foibles, short of drunken sociopathy.

A neat anecdote, but it would be so much more interesting if the story could be attached to a person - Bivens I'm guessing. But that is the problem. The details that really stand out are almost always anonymized (to coin a term). Your story looses so much without the name.

Brent

Thanks for all the feedback, I found it all interesting. Many things to consider after reading all the post. The Linden letter is very interesting but not sure how much if any I should publish. I do not believe that anyone should re-write history so maybe the place for all this is in my files where folks in the future who have an interest can find that information. I’m at an age where I understand that others will be looking at my research files someday and I think about how it will be used. They way things are now I have about 2-3000 words to get out the information I feel is important about any given maker and his work. On some makers such as Niedner I have a full filing cabinet drawer of information.
Years ago I was as guilty as anyone of hero-worship regarding some of the better know custom makers and as I got older and learned more than most about them I found they were just human with all the good and bad that go along with it. I have on tape, where one maker (not Niedner) is saying another maker murdered someone so you can see how far out some of this stuff can get.
About Howe, I have been chasing James V. Howe all over the country, the guy just could not stay in one place very long. I have found no evidence of him not getting along, more of him having to get along to someplace new. The grass is always greener Howe.
If his last words were “Tell Mr. Smith I’m sorry I didn’t finish his rifle” I might publish, if his last words were ”Please bury me in the black sleeveless dress” I might not ;-).

“I would go farther than across the street to hear the Niedner tape”
Murphy, You need go no farther than your mailbox and if other’s want to listen to the Niedner tape you can send it to the next one on the list and then back to me. Back in “BC” (before computers) I put together a slide show that hit the road and returned to me about a year later. When I learn new stuff I like to share it so send me you mailing address.
John. Believe it or not I made a decision to share what I learned after watching a program on public TV about an American Chair expert that folks from all over the country consulted with when they wanted to identify a chair. He had a loft in NYC with chairs hanging everywhere, one of the last questions the interviewer asked him was what he did for a living and his reply was he made sandwiches in a deli. He said no one cared what he did for a living they only cared about what he knew.

Michael,

A very provocative thread; a question with no easy answer but to use common sense and to follow the golden rule, above mentioned.

As I read JohnM's chair experts story I also immediately heard, and vividly envisioned too, John Bivins as the single voice across the table. I would love to know if BrentD and I are correct, and in this case, I feel no harm would be done to identify him specifically. In fact this is just the sort of tale, if true, which brings to mind and allows us to remember fondly for a moment a too sadly missed talent, teacher and friend. If he is not that person, knowing who is corrects those of us who so quickly saw John as that person, and accurately credits the true hero of the tale.

I was fortunate, like many others, to share a lot of time and experiences with John. Someday it would be wonderful to swap some of my stories with others who knew him well. For instance, I was privileged to assist him when we had the opportunity to completely disassemble and photograph the Marshall Rifle in detail.

Bob

Sounds like your discretion serves you well. Possibly, things not printed will speak volumes. It'd be a shame not to mention long happy marriages and good neighbor ways if the shoe fit.

Gents,

Wish that I had taken lessons from J.B., or met him more than just the one time at Friendship. I had spoken with Bivins by phone about various problems, and found him to be a helpful and courteous man. As well, I could tell during face to face conversations with Jim Chambers, how much he esteemed and misses him.

However, since I see no harm in it and you asked, the craft scholar in question was Wallace Gusler, then of Williamsburg. He and I roomed at the same motel and ate dinners at a southern diner outside of DC, when he was teaching a class at the Smithsonian's Conservation Analytical Labs. Pretty interesting, to just listen.

Also, learned a bit of the philosophical motivation in his approach to the recreation of historic rifles, as compared to other makers. No right or wrong: just different. He also emphasized in his historic furniture lectures, the idea that the clean chisel work -- toolmarks -were historically the final finish of carved elements, rather than further refinement of the surface.

I am no expert or scholar here, just relating a few incidental things which I found insightful or amusing. I have found very few of the fine craft or scholar folks I have met or studied with, to be really stuffy. Ego or pride might show a bit in the context of interpretation or execution, but nothing very much more than 'campfire chat' level.

It is within the furniture conservation field and the restoration community that I have found some folks analogous to the 'crusty gunsmith' or 'disregardful of a client' or 'jealous of others achievements' -- the stuff of gossip, or good and meaningful enmities. ;~`)

I suppose that while the characters of Mike studies might be entertaining, and maybe the incidents illuminating somewhat of the man, it doesn't make too much difference to me. Maybe a story or two accompanying each 'smith might be illuminating, and as long as the guidelines Mike mentions are in effect, it adds a bit of interest to the 'read'.

Gussler was my second guess. But this illustrates another point. NOT telling the full story leaves room for incorrect stories to be applied to the wrong people.

I see this quite a bit in the world of anonymously refereed academic publishing and it causes a lot of misplaced animosity. In the end, I pretty much despise secrets and anonymity in general. The entire and truthful story leaves less room for untruths to be saddled on the wrong horse.

It is a pet peave of mine, this failure to be complete and tell the story, the whole story....

Brent

Michael,

It is a very tough question. I do not have nearly the breadth or experience that you do. I have come across information that is provocative. I often ask myself the same question. However, it sometimes is also what drives the research. Why did part of the family immigrate? Why does a wife appear, disappear and reappear in the census tracts? Certainly, no article or interest from collectors in those matters. However, for myself, it helps to humanize, give multiple dimensions and sometimes some insight. Whether to publish the information is a very tough call.

I know the bottle is often involved. I have refrained from touching that one openly. I also have heard that many 19th century gunsmith's died of TB. I have yet to confirm that, but it does raise questions in my mind.

Pete

A man is not diminished when the truth is told about him, a man is diminished when noone knows the truth about him! I believe knowing the personality of these men, just add to the joy of owning one of their rifles. Tell us those things that add to the picture of the personalities of these men and you'll be fine. Warmest Regards Jerry

Brent,

None of that crossed my mind, when writing. In my parochial world, the person's name seemed secondary to the story. Nor did it appear to be such an event, that I'd need ask the fellow's permission to relate it in public print. However, if someone asked as you did, I see no harm in it, in this instance.

On the other hand,I value my privacy and loath the low stature of those who make a practice of manufacturing inaccurate, speculative gossip. Just a quirk of mine. At least we can all pretty much rule out that Wallace will be buried in a black negligee, eh?

I think we can learn too much about those we hold in high reguard. As a boy, I revered the writings of several gun writers but later in life learned from those who had known them they were: a) a faker, b) an egotistical pain in the ass with no reguard for anyone but himself and c) a thief. I can no longer enjoy the writings of any of them. I don't feel this knowledge of any of them enhanced my life in any way and wish I hadn't learned it. Revealing all the warts between someones toes isn't necessary to help us understand the artistry of their work.
Just my opinion and worth every cent it cost.
Cary

"My outlook has been don’t write anything about someone I would not want written about myself."

Michael,
That says much about your character. Still, I would like to see the interview made available at some point.

I remain amazed at the wonderful guns that these men made while battling their own demons. We are all only human.
Regards, Ron

Cary, how about telling us the names of the three gun writers you described.

Between the two of them, Gusler and Bivens, what they don't know about American Longrifles and early southern decorative arts isn't worth knowing. I used to talk with John every once in a while, we were only 45 minutes apart, but wish I had visited a lot more often.

Some interesting observations and I thank you all for them, lots for me to think about.


Shelhamer;
When Tom Shelhamer’s young daughter Alice had her tonsils out the doctor cut her vocal cords. Tom searched the USA for a doctor who could repair the cords which was done but she went through life with a very horse and deep voice. Alice never married and when she died she left the house and all the contents to the young man who mowed the grass. I and others worked with him trying to save the records , he got bored with that and his brother has them now and someday I hope that anyone who has a Shelhamer rifle can get a copy of the record for that rifle. He kept detailed records including the history of where and who he got the wood from. When Tom Shelhamer died in 1971 he was building a harp.
Owen;
When I was interviewing Bob Owen’s son on the phone I ask if his sister could help with information, Bob said that he did not think so. I then asked if his other sister might have info, he said he only had one sister. With my mouth going and my brain shut off I said “You sure do” and gave him her name, I found out later that this sister had died and no one told him. Later I found a picture of the sister who died and sent it to bob. We are friends now but I’m still embarrassed when I think about it.
Niedner;
IMO Niedner was close to a genius but he was so focused on firearms that everyday stuff kind of got in the way. A man I knew stayed for several days with Niedner and his wife, the first night the wife piled up Niedner’s dinner plate with piles of food, Niedner talked with the friend through dinner and ate everything. The next night his wife put a small piece of ham, a few peas and spoonful of sweat potatoes on his plate, he ate and talked never saying a word. One time he got a letter from a man in another state asking him what to do about the back door that had blown off the house. Niedner wrote back asking why he should care. The man wrote him that the house was Niedner’s and he was renting it from him. Niedner’s wife made arrangements with a childhood friend that if she was to die before him the friend would come take care of Adolph. She did and the friend moved to Dowagiac and lived with Niedner. Niedner was a practical joker and messed with people all the time. One time on a hunting trip the truck was stuck in the mud and one man was pouring sand on one wheel they went around the other side and Niedner had his canteen out pouring water on the other wheel.

I think it was Niedner’s friend Bill McQerry who told his new friend that his wife was hard of hearing and told his wife his friend was hard of hearing and he sat back while they yelled at one another.

Dubiel;
As an immigrant John Dubiel was very patriotic, his daughter told me he got all the kids up on the Fourth-of-July to help raise the American flag.

Mark, if you'll send an email to jpn509@msn.com I'll respond. Just don't want to throw it out there as a public condemnation.

Cary

Michael, I for one really appreciate reading those anecdotes! I already knew about Neidner's escapade with the canteen and the stuck wheel, but the others made for very pleasant reading. At least it was pleasant after I passed the point where Shelhamer's records may end up being lost forever(!).

And that raises yet another question. Have you, Michael, made any provision for the disposition of your notes and records after your passing? I recall a similar dilemma discussed by the ASSRA about their own library a few years ago, and still not resolved or even revisited as far as I know. It would be a shame if the accumulated data assembled by you should become lost to future generations, and I was wondering if you had reached any conclusions you'd care to share with us?
Regards, Joe

A timely question I just got off the phone with Rudi Prusok with no easy answers for either of us. For those who don't know Rudi he is the keeper of the ASSRA library. A decade ago when the wife and I made out or last will I left all my records, pictures, databases and files to the Rifled Arms Historical Association which now seems to be dead. Ideally I would like to find a (young) man to take over for me and have all my files. Realizing that that may not be possible for many reasons I would like to find a institution that might be interested and I was thinking of some school like Trinidad State Junior College or other that has a gunsmith school. Rudi thinks this is a good Idea as well and would be open to something like this. My library (200 feet of book shelf) will go to auction, the ASSRA library is about the length of a football field.

A timely question I just got off the phone with Rudi Prusok with no easy answers for either of us. For those who don't know Rudi he is the keeper of the ASSRA library. A decade ago when the wife and I made out or last will I left all my records, pictures, databases and files to the Rifled Arms Historical Association which now seems to be dead. Ideally I would like to find a (young) person to take over for me and have all my files. Realizing that that may not be possible for many reasons I would like to find a institution that might be interested and I was thinking of some school like Trinidad State Junior College or other that has a gunsmith school. Rudi thinks this is a good Idea as well and would be open to something like this. My library (200 feet of book shelf) will go to auction, the ASSRA library is about the length of a football field.

Michael, The Cody Museum might be more accessible and better known to more people.

Just a thought,
Brent

The McCracken Research Library is a possibility. However I think you have to travel to Cody to get anything, at least that was how it was when I went there. Cody may be a bit closer than Alaska but not by much. I'm thinking about a teaching school because of all the younger folks who might take up research and writing if gunsmithing does not pay the bills ;-).

I went to the McCracken Research Library to look at the Kornbrath papers, this was years ago and they sat a cardboard box full of papers on my desk and said "Have-Fun".

Just between us Michael, in my experiences with TSJC I would imagine giving the college your papers a bit like burying them in an unmarked grave.

I have a similar quandry???? A friend recently asked, "What are you going to do with all your guns?"
My reply, "I'm not worried about the guns, it's my library and personal papers I think about!"

I sold one of my rarest books the other day (not most valuable, but hardest to come by) simply because I found a fellow who wanted it...

I also probably have something to say about revealing personal info of deceased custom gunmakers being the resident most-likely-next-in-line... but I've been waiting for everyone else to have their say.
Best,
Steve

The best thing would be for someone that does what I do to have my files, problem is all the ones that I would send my stuff to are all about my age or older. The real problem is the ASSRA who must have the most complete firearms library in the USA. I have worked with Rudi for decades and he will look up and copy anything he might have that you need. There is nothing like it anywhere and it would be a huge loss to all researchers. For anyone who might eventuality suggest it I'll say it now NRA=NO-RESEARCH-ALLOWED.

Michael:

Have you spoken to the J.M. Davis Museum in Claremont, OK? I haven't been there in 25 years, but they had an extensive and growing firearms collection and your papers might be a wonderful complement to that collection.

I know nothing more about them than the location and the experience of a very pleasant afternoon spent perusing their displays, but I suggest it as a possibility because of the subject matter of their collection.

Rem

Michael,
There are whole hosts of academic museums and libraries that may very well be interested in your work. I would not be the least surprised and they are very professionally curated of course. And there is the Smithsonian and other public museums. These are the sorts of places where they won't "disappear".

if you think Cody is almost as far away as Alaske, I think I should send you some maps. I do go to Trinidad annually but have never been to the school. I do not think any of the shooters that are there at that time do, unless they are gunsmiths, and strangely, few if any gunsmiths these days, seem to be interested in history.

Anyway, I'm no expert, and I can only guess what you have, but Cody seems to be the best to me. They do allow people in, and who doesn't want another good reason to go to Cody? It's a decent place where one can shoot too.

Brent

PS. One other possibility - Friendship and the NMLRA has some sort of curated archives and they do copy things and mail them to folks that ask nicely for very little or no cost. Seem to be good folks, not sure how reliable they will be in the future.

IMO there are two firm and absolute requirements for a repository for your and the ASSRA's records.

The first is continuity. Whichever institution has responsibility for the records must have a program for storing and retrieving them, with an established and publicly-available procedure for obtaining information. Unfortunately I agree with Steve, Trinidad is simply not the place IMO. The school is basically a simple local-area-serving junior college with no research and/or curatorial program so far as I know. What's needed is a reasonably-well-known institution with an established reputation if possible, but in any case one that's likely to both preserve and add to the collection in the future as well as making it available in an ongoing & dependable manner.

The second requirement IMO is a method for the institution to make money on each information request. Not necessarily an actual profit, but at least enough $ to offset the expenses of the service. Most all museums includiing Cody charge a fee for any research and copying services, but the members of the ASSRA seem reluctant to donate their records to anyone who would charge a meaningful fee. I'll bet it'll be very difficult to find an institution or individual who would or could guarantee inexpensive access without some additional method of funding. Yes, the records & books are valuable & interesting in and of themselves, but not so valuable or interesting that a museum would grant free services just in exchange for them, as some ASSRA members seem to expect.

As Yul Brynner (The King and I) used to say, "It is a puzzlement!"
Regards, Joe

Would the ACGG have the means or interest for this or is it simply a trade organization?

I think Brent and JD have made excellent points. The institution must have continuity, and to some degree, it must be self supporting. Michael has an extensive library, data base, photos & many other items, including files on rifles of interest. His work should be preserved (and used, in a positive manner). I think one way to accomplish this is through an endowed curatorship. The mechanism(s) for endowment are reasonably straightforward.

Michael is not the only person deserving of having his work preserved. I have seen private firearms libraries donated to our local "Friends of the Library". When these ladies get gun books, they burn them. I would like to see an institution enabled to receive private libraries or collections through donation or through purchase at fair prices. The institution should be able to keep any needed items and dispose of duplicates, etc. in some reasonable manner.

I would not imagine the ACGG to be a good candidate for research papers. The Guild "historian" is a volunteer position with no job description other than he's willin'.
I have no valid suggestions...

I have a history with ACGG, back before I started writing for PS I offered to write for them about the early custom makers, for free. They had no interest and I was told they had a historian (not the one now)and he would do any historical writing. I get along fine with the members and count many as friends. I would only think about giving them my papers while peeing on an electric fence. That answer the question ;-).

Gee, that's kinda how I feel about the ASSRA

In any event, you need a professional operation if you really want your stuff to last out there. Ever check into the UA-Fairbanks museum, just for the heck of it?

Brent

All organizations that grow to a certain size become political and the ASSRA & AGCC are no different, I like the members but have a hard time with the politics. If you have been with the ASSRA long enough you will remember that I wrote several articles for them. I have always admired the work of Rudi Prusok and will do what I can to help preserve his work. I remember around the early 1970's when I started getting serious about research I wrote several letters to the NRA, they either did not have the information or were too busy to respond. It's funny because the person who was running the NRA downtown museum at the time did not have a complete set of American Rifleman magazines and would call me and ask questions. Once I found Rudi he went out of his way to help and supply any answers he could. I also depended heavily on fellow researcher Jim Foral to share information with. He is lurker here but seldom post.

I often wondered what happened to the papers of folks such as Braverman(sp?) Sellers and others who did research. Townsend Whelen's grandson is working on a bibliography of TW's writings, a major project.

Just to be clear, I have never heard a bad word about Rudi Prusok. And I have no reason to think he is other than a great guy. The ASSRA as an organization, on the other hand...

I wish there was an easy answer for you. Seems like there should.

Brent

There just aren't many well endowed institutions that are going to have an interest in custom gunsmiths, even peripherally. The ones that are interested are organizations like ASSRA and cannot be really considered a reliable, long term repository. I would even be worried about University collections suffering a politically correct purge of such information. I suspect that, for all its faults, the NRA comes the closest to fulfilling your requirments. In the meantime publish and share as much as you can. The more widely disseminted the knowledge the more likely it is to survive.

Jerry Liles

Jerry Liles

Jerry,
I think the continued steriotypic reaction to universities is really a shame. Few if any of these instances are warrented and ANY university has a real interest in American History which is what we are talking about.

FWIW, when I want to learn something about the phylogeny of muzzleloading gunmakers, I go to my University library, where I can find a goodly number of books on the wall. I have not researched archives simply because my interests are not that deep.

University museum collections (similar but different than libraries) are being databased now and can often be searched from around the planet. They are the institutions that will be around and will be available to people as far into the future as we can hope.

It is too bad there is such animosity towards higher education by the gun crowd. But that is another sad story for a different thread.

Brent

PS. Michael, most of your interests are in eastern gunsmiths if I read you right. Perhaps a Pennsylvania, New York or similar New England school would be willing to archive carefully organized notes on American gun making. I think some research into such schools will prove fruitful.

I agree that the best way to insure the preservation of Mike's knowledge is for him to publish everything that he has in a book or books. I'll take 2 of each that he publishes,maybe more. I have the habit of buying multiple copies of books that I find well researched in subjects that interest me.Most of the time they are not best sellers but time has proven that they become sought after in time.Witness the price of John Bivins book on North Carolina furniture and the original Colt and Winchester engraving books.

Brent,

I'm speaking from some experience. I am an adjunct Asst. Prof of Biology at the local university. In one instance I provided most of the tools and facilities for a research project on Hansen's disease in Armadillos. Both graduate students earned Masters degrees and since have earned their doctorates. One is now an assistant dean at her school. I have also seen what budget cuts do to collections as well as the corrosive effects of campus political correctness (mostly at other schools, we're kinda redneck here). It has taken a lot of involvement by former students to maintain Dr Thomas' wonderful herbarium and Dr Douglas' fish and herp collection against lack of funds and criticism from other faculty about their "relevance". There are plenty of professors perfectly willing to jettison another man's life's work just because it doesn't meet their approval. Get a couple of them on the wrong committees and they can do a lot of damage. So it comes down to I love my old school and I am involved but I have little faith in the motives of much of the faculty (especially from the humanities). I just have to be worried about the reception such a collection as Petrov's would get at a lot of schools. However I suspect, as suggested, any Alaskan college or university would be pleased to get the collection.

Jerry Liles

Brent, ol' buddy ol' pal, methinks you got it exactly backwards, it's the ivory tower THEM that have rejected the non-PC US!

I fully agree with everything that Michael and Brent have said about the ASSRA as an organization, and also the fact that most of its members are actually fine folks.

And the real shame of it all is that an organization like the ASSRA would and should be perfect IMO for such a curatorial responsilbility!

Except for the politics and vested interests, that is.

My 'vote'(G) reluctantly goes to either the Cody museum or a serious, reputable university (not a college) with a national firearms reputation. I stipulate a university because of the very welcome possibility that graduate students will find the info useful in pursuit of their advanced degrees, and that the resulting exposure of firearms knowledge will benefit our sport among the academics. Just a thought.
Regards, Joe

Jerry, I speak from more experience. I'm a full professor at a fairly large R1 university. I've been employed by 5 different R1 universities around the country and one overseas. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Sadly, your attitude does more to create a self-fulling professy than it does to identify, much less remedy, the problem.

Go to a gun range or a gun show in any college town and chances are you can damn near hold a faculty meeting there. But don't expect anyone to raise their hand and identify themselves as an academic. The political correctness of your preceived enemies is far outmatched by the political correctness of the gun crowd. Any academic is likely to be harassed on sight.

Joe, you are pretty PC, though not quite as much as the norm in the gun world, and no, "they" have not rejected you or me or anyone. Universities are bigger places than that.

Again, start with UAF. They have a museum with a wonderful reputation for natural history of AK and probably it's modern history as well. You might be welcomed. Never know 'til ya ask.

Brent

From what I know of the academic world, the few supporters that may embrace such a project will not identify themselves at 'work' either. Hat's off though to tolerant institutions that also have protections in place against future priority shifts.

Brent, we've disagreed before and we surely disagree now. I'm reasonably well-educated, well-read and well-informed, and I most emphatically disagree with your opinion on this subject. I know many 'educators' and other academics, in fact I trained for the teaching profession for many years and spent a fair amount of my professional life as an instructor (NOT a teacher, an instructor) of technical & math studies at the nuke plant. When you meet the academics who frequent the rifle range or gun show, at least around here, you're meeting the folks who are generally the bottom knots on the academic committee yoyo string. I know and shoot with quite a few college professors and each of them is a fine fellow himself, but each will be quick to tell you of the vicious infighting over budgets and political correctness and 'relevance' and 'image' and other trivia that goes on in the more rarified academic atmospheres. Most of my friends choose to keep away from such infighting and so the committees are largely left to the more-PC types.

I used to belong to the local sports car club, an organization thoroughly infested with college professors and other politically-correct academic types. Most of the males and many of the females appeared to be repelled by my gunsmithing hobby, and many even tried to involve me in defending the shooting sports against their innuendos and outright attacks.(!)

Brent, you are fortunate to have been spared this unpleasantness but please don't think for a minute that your experience is typical.
Regards, Joe

Ponder this Joe
The Executive VP for Research and Provost of this Univeristy is a major gunner, pehasant killer and owner of high quality gun dogs. The Chair of Socialogy and Anthropology I go to gun shows with. Three full profs in my department are serious hunters and those are just the full profs. I know the upper echolons of several other departments from meetings at the range or at shows. Joe, you just plain wrong.

You're feelings of repulsion are probably imagined, or maybe you need a shower?? :):)

Yup, we disagree and I know a lot more about this business than you. I'm also damn sick and tired of being tarred and feathered. Enough so to consider quitting this game. IT GETS DAMN TIRESOME!!!!

Brent

I think the truth is there is no "one truth" about the political leanings of any one institution of higher learning. When I was a kid my dad would have the industrial arts faculty of the local university out for pheasant hunting several times during the season.I know several of the faculty at the same university(University of Northern Iowa) and they are all fixtures at the better gun shows and hunt too.That being said several of the faculty at the same university are very outspoken in their dislike for firearms.

Brent, you can claim more experience all you want but I still rely upon my own life experiences. I don't feel any repulsion at all for the academic life, not at all, but apparently some of the academics feel some sort of repulsion for many of the rest of us and our more-blue-collar lives.

Ponder this: 100 years ago even the average high school graduate had at least a nodding acquaintance with Latin, Greek and the classics, and teachers were almost always respected as pillars of the community. Today our colleges(!?) teach remedial English & remedial math as SOP, and many teachers seem to be either degenerates or extreme liberals who dislike guns and embrace censorship of reading material. Frequent mentions of these aberrant behaviors are all over the national news media, all the time, so it seems to me that many in the academic world have kinda rejected the rest of us by moving even further away from the mainstream. Whatever, JMOFWIW, but I'll bet that your opinion is a minority even among college professors. The most 'prestigious' universities in the US are located in CA and MA, how many shooting sportsmen do you think teach at Berkley and MIT? I won't even mention Pepperdine or Harvard! Even Emory down in GA has more than its share of ultra-PCs, my brother is a graduate of the Emory Law School & you should hear some of HIS stories!
Regards, Joe

Joe, what amount of data would it take to change your opinion? At what point does fact overcome opinion? Your repulsion is pretty obvious to me in your commentary and pretty typical of gun folk in general. I suspect your car club acquaintences sensed your feelings about them long before you brought up you gun interests. It comes through loud and clear.

You assesment of modern academics is, again, wrong. But I am giving up on you listening. A sure sign of a PC person is one that is unable to face facts that stand contrary to his perceptions. You are being foolish - to put it politely. And you are doing a damn good job of alienating yet one more academic. Congratulations!

Now, I'm off to a meeting run by the Second in Command of this place - and she just happens to be that rabid pheasant hunter. I'm sure she and I will have more interesting discussion than you and me.

Brent

Probably about the same amount that it would take to convince me that the Obamanation is A Good Thing.

You yourself have admitted that many average folks consider academics to be their adversaries when it comes to shooting, so where exactly do you think they've gotten that impression? Had to come from SOMEWHERE! I posit that many academics themselves have caused that opinion to form and to flourish, because of their sometimes outspoken advocacy of the tree-huggers.

And I suspect that some if not most of the Sports Car Club animosity stemmed from the fact that my blue-collar Trans Am and Austin-Healey w/Ford 302 V8 (How BRUTISH! What SACRILEGE!) waxed their collective 6-cyl asses at every single autocross. Plus, at that time I was single, tall, not too ugly yet and VERY interested in their females....'nuff said.
Hope you have a good hunt, regards, Joe

Hi Brent,
I know I'm not part of the conversation, but I'm curious know if higher education in general is tolerant of sporting gun issues or if it's just your campus. Could it be possible to run into a few hard left personalities on the average college campus.

I think it's foolish to assume there'll be a friend at the near by college, Craig

Craig, here is are a real short list of those campuses where I have personally hunted with faculty.

Iowa State U. (current)
U. Kansas
U. Arizona
U. Georgia
Michigan State U.
U. Nebraska (I was never a member of this institution but I hunt with several of their faculty from Wyoming to Africa).

I personally and regularly swap hunting stories and shooting stories and gun gab with faculty from more institutions than I can count. But I have not the above list only includes places where I have PERSONALLY been in the field them - and, except for UNL - where I have been an employed.

BTW, we have an intercollegiant trap and skeet team with, oh 70-100 students heavily involved. And a rifle and pistol club as well. The University also sponsors two hunting clubs connected to Ducks Unlimited and Pheasants Forever.

Hell, I used to bow hunt with my 6th grade teacher. You guys really have no clue what the typical academic is like but you are making it easy for them to dislike you right from the get go.

Thanks much Brent, academia is critical to the job I've chosen. I too have stories like pouring decoy weights with one of my profs, but...I'd hate to 'misfire' on the wrong forum.

For every time you've felt right at home with your peers, there may be other situations that remind of beer summits. Like or dislike shouldn't determine the merit of preserving tidbits of history, but it does.

Only the best, Craig

Sorry to butt into this conversation and I will probbly regret it but out of the 100's of professors and thousands of students your sampling seems a bit off to me even by your own suggestions. Also the schools you mention are all good schools but they are not typical of colleges across this country and especially on the two coasts. I have lived and attended school in New York, Colorado, Wyoming and Chicago and I can tell you the Professors in Wyoming and Colorao were qite different than those in New York and Chicago. Again we are glad for those of you who share our passion and thankful for any and all support but to say academia is on our side I believe is overstating it a little bit. Also it would help in my opinion that when Joe or anyone else challenges your views to not treat them likie a first year student and not tell them you are right and they are wrong because you are the professor and we don't have your knowledge or insight and how can we be doubting your experience. When in fact our experience has been different from yours. Most of the people that actively participate on this board seem to be well educated and we have nothing to gain by slamming academia but are speaking what they believe to be true and from their own experiences. Again this is just one persons view and I thank you for reading it whether or not we agree.

Michael J

Smile how about our estemed Pres,He was a Prof,his Fiend Ayres etc,etc, are they all for gun rights.???? Smile Whitey

BrentD, don't kid yourself, the professoriat at the Northeastern and California universities that, alas, produce our governing elite is strongly antigun. Those worthy schools you cited are simply without comparable political influence. And, IMO, trap and skeet people and bird hunters tend to be politically the least active class of gun owners in supporting the 2nd Amendment.

You can add most of CSU to that list. I can't believe that children are born not liking guns or gun sports. Where do they get most of there guidance.About socitey. In school.From a bunch of liberal. Teachers. I know this is not true with all schools. But it becomes more that way all the time.AND then they run for office. Smile.Think about all our educated.People in goverment.Then think about where the worst ones are from.And where they went to school. But the part I can not understan. Is with all there high dollar education. Is why they think restricing my gun rights. Will stop the crooks from getting a gun.And why they should think.That the guy breaking into your house.Should have the right to feel safe from harm.Smile

Whitey, you are also wrong. I know of hunters and a few serious gun dog field trialers at CSU. I know of a pile of hunters all through the UC system, so mike, scratch the California schools off your hate list. Better scratch the Oregon schools too. Lots of hunters there. Sorry but I can't say anything one way or the other about U. Wash. Only know a couple of folks there and not very well.

I know of hunters in most of the NE schools also, and had things been just a little less good here in Iowa, I'd be posting this from @columbia.edu instead of @iastate.edu. When I turned down that position at Columbia, it wasn't because of guns, and I didn't have to pass an anti-gun litmus test to get that offer. During that same period, I interviewed at UMass-Amherst and found hunters there.

You guys are doing a real good job of making enemies out of allies in particularly valuable places. Smart move. Way to go.

And Whitey, I know of plenty of "liberal" hunters and a fair number of them in the serious target shootoihng world. They keep pretty close to the closet though. Keep it up and I'll know fewer, and it won't be because they have switched to your conservative lock-step ranks. They will quit hunting because it gets old to be beat up by what one thinks are one's friends over it. You are so absolutely clueless, you can't even begin to conceive of what you don't grasp.

And MJ, I won't bother you with stories I swap with a prof friend of mine from Chicago - one of your named centers to hate. He collects late 19th and early 20th century military rifles from around the world. He ain't alone, I could list a goodly number of them without much effort at all. Chicago is pretty rife with bulletheads.

You guys are so PC in looking for those special places and groups to hate you can't see past your own toes. But I sure would appreciate it if you would drop the damn bullshit you recite, and start thinking for yourselves.

I've had enough of this, so chalk up another win for your side - alienated another one. Good job. I'm outa here.

Brent,
I for one never used or for that fact use the word hate towards any person. That is purely your take. I simply stated that the majority of professors at these locations are not of like mind to us. You see a far as I can tell we are not looking to make enemies we are simply relating our experiences. You say you have one professor in Chicago you share your passion with. How many Professors do you suppose are located in he greater chicago area? Do you really believe that a majority of them share our passion? And just for the record Chicago is one of my favorite cities and one of the easiest to enjoy. And that comes from a native New Yorker. You are mentioning a small sampling of your contacts and you say that they are disheartened by our view of them, my question would be why don't they and you ( and you may already do this and I applaud you if you do ) work on the people you are incostant contact with and try and help them to see our side ad maybe bring them in line with our beliefs a little more. This will of course result in having our opinion changing and everything being better for eveyone. I know this is simplistic. I think your numbers are still not working out. Yes you know hunters and shooters at each of these schools, like minded people always have a way of finding each other. But I don't believe you have made a strong argument for your premise that a majority of academia is not against us. Yes there are pockets of people on our side but that is all, just pockets.
Once agian just my opinion and experience.

Michael J

Brent I said most not all. Smile.And I think even you would admit. They are far out numbered. And look at the actions of some of the schools of higher education. They sure want our tax money to support them. BUT no Military Requiting to help protect our BUTTS.
No matter what I would not trust a University with. Historical info on gun. JMO

Half a century ago, when I was in high school, one of my English teachers was also editor of Gun Report and wrote a column for every issue. I never heard anyone in town who thought he was acting incorrectly, but his wife was a vegetarian and people thought she was weird. In the late 60's, after the Navy, I attended SUNY College of Forestry in Syracuse. That's a small & specialized school, with limited space, but plenty of interest in our end of the subject. Syracuse University (across the alley) had a smallbore rifle range & maybe a skeet range. In 1985-88, I had an opportunity to go back to academia, pursuing an advanced degree at Univ of CA at Davis. The UCD main library had an interesting collection of books on firearms. I often read them when my graduate work in paleomagnetics got to be a bit much. In 1998, I had a chance to go back to UCD for a week of refresher training. I went back to the UCD library, thinking I would spend evenings reading George Chinn's volumes on machine guns. All the gun books had been removed from the library and were no longer listed in the library's extensive on-line catalog.

Last year, my son took a basic machine shop course at our local junior college. The first day of classes, the instructor ran over procedures, safety rules, etc. One of the rules was that you could not even ask questions about gunmaking techniques. There would be no discussion of guns at all. College policy. The same JC has a police academy with all sorts of banging away at their pistol range. Maybe things are different in Iowa or Alaska, but here on the left coast, I don't think serious studies of things associated with firearms by the proletariat will be tolerated by the academic higher-ups.

All this flap started over some discussion about Michael P leaving his papers to some institution. The thread got a bit off track. No matter where MP's papers go, unless there is an endowment to support curatorship, there is a big chance they will head for the dust bin.

waterman

waterman, You are full of BS too.

In 17.6 seconds, I called up 77 titles in the UC-Davis library that are on the shelves with "Rifle" in the title. The simpliest fastest search I could find

Here a couple of the top of the list "The complete manual for young sportsmen..." Shields Library SK33 .H4

"American rifle : a biography / Alexander Rose" Shields Library TS536.4 .R67 2008

Are you going try again?

Brent isn't going to admit anything.
He is stuck in an indefensible position scratching for straws in a hay field.
Stating that his personal click at a mid-western institution is indicative on national academic trends is hogwash.
Dismissing the Berkley’s, Antioch’s, Madison’s, Eugene’s, NYC’s, and Ivy leagues leaves out a hugely influential academic realm, most of it.

Sorry Brent, you are simply argumentative and downright derailed.

Hi Brent, is it ok if I call BS on you. Though I knew the outcome, I played the game anyway. A search of gun under Sheilds library at UC Davis turned up:

2001-2002 Report Comittee Hearing, California Legislative Assembly
The Armed Criminal in America
ATF, The Youth Crime Gun Interdiction

Three of the first five, the other two were in Japanese, and the antigun selections went on and on. I didn't bother looking for the volumes that waterman was hoping to browse through.

As a claimed academic, wouldn't you see that your few anecdotal examples are not fact nor do they prove willingness to tolerate gunmaking history.

You pounce a bit quickly on alternative points of view. Your experiences are valid, but your students also have points of view. I'd hope you're honest with them at the start of a semester and inform them 'if I say black is white, then that's the way it better be answered on the tests'.

Not hateful, bad or mean spirited, just, Craig

You guys have given me much to ponder, seems like my best bet is to publish what I know and not worry so much. Funny, I just got a email from a student at Trinidad asking about a classic rifle because they did not have a copy of my book at the school library. Guess I need to send them a copy.

Michael, having worked in community/junior colleges most of my life, I know that the book will be put to good use. In that world, there is truly "No gift too small." You are gonna make some "kids" drool....

I'm sorry this thread has gotten to name calling. I actually have some sympathy for Brent's position as most of the biology department at the local school hunt. The new wildlife refuge, Black Bayou, has a friends group that has its ramrods from the business school. They don't hunt but at least one does shoot. A concealed weapons course has been given on campus and I know of a professor in the Music dept that took the course. However this is the deep South. My experience in graduate school at an East Coast institution was polar opposite. Enough so that I would not trust my civil liberties to their tender mercies.

Having said that I find there may be cause for hope. I've been reading some posts by a Dr Myers, a gun toting, card carrying liberal. Try this url.

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm

Still wouldn't recommend Mr Petrov sending his archives to any east or west coast school.

Jerry Liles

Let me try that url again


http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/Feature/2005/05_Feature.htm

It is just too bad that Those kind of peoble in the education system.Are Few And Far between.
MIchael put my name on the list. For that book or books.Just Hurry. Smile. Whitey

WJL,

I followed the url you posted. It showed me that I am just an over-the-hill paper puncher, completely out of touch with whatever passes for reality. I read the whole thing, but failed to make heads or tails out of all the acronyms & jargon.

waterman

waterman,

Dr Myers is an academic. They love jargon. My point is that being a liberal (I'm not by the way), or an academic doesn't necessarily mean a person is against gun ownership. Dr Kleck, an academic criminologist and an ACLU member, did what is perhaps the first really good research on gun ownership and crime. Much to his surprise it debunked much of the antigun propaganda and almost all of what passed for research up to that time. Arguably his research and publications have done as much or more to support the Second Ammendment than any thing else in the last 20 years. Another academic is Dr John Lott. Google his website. It is full of high quality research supporting gun rights.

Jerry Liles

I'm rather saddened to read the above debate on academia and it's probable wholesale inclinations.

However, I don't see that anyone has a lock on the 'right or wrong' of the subject. Individuals make up institutions, and the mileage for each person will vary. That's all just platitudinous common sense, so far as that goes. Without a really well planned and executed neutral survey, I don't see that any 100% sweeping generalization may be the "GRAVEN TRVTH" regarding this issue.

I'm quite willing to accept the personal experiences with and anecdotes of pro-gun academics. Equally so, in some forty-fifty years of being aware of the subject, and actually having done some original 2A research at college levels, as well as having been a 'folding table and placard' activist, my take on Academia as a whole is that it not universally and scholastically open-minded on this subject.

That is not a blanket condemnation, nor is it a denial of the existence of pro-gun, or even gun-tolerant, individuals in the education profession.

HOWEVER: I do believe that the college/university Auntie Crowd is much more closely linked in their goals, than all the pro-gunners in Higher Ed, put together. There is a condescending social class 'we'ness, a clamoring vociferousness, moral self-righteousness, the compulsion to rule everything, reflexive intolerance and all the little political evils that go into a Would-be Ruling class. Ayn Rand nailed down that sniggling, smug mentality to the "T", in her writings.

However, that appearance is a question of visibility and public perception, aided by a largely Liberally-oriented Nat'l press. The factual percentage of who comprises the reality, whether Auntie, pro or neutral -- is actually unknown.

From my own experiences here in the Upper Midwest, at the West End of Lake Erie, it would be fair to say that my exposure to pro-gun academics is far less than my exposure to Auntie-gun academics. That would also hold true for my second-hand experience with my wife's fellow high school teaches. Hunters: here and there. CCW advocates: verrrry few.

However, I can also relate that in my experience from manning 'activist tables' at general outdoorsman fairs or expositions, that there are considerable numbers of hunters who are NOT defenders of handgun ownership, or semi-auto rifles, or even large bore rifles [on one occasion]. "Why, what would a man NEED one of those things for? I saw one shoot RIGHT THRU a chunk of telephone pole. That's just dangerous for ANYONE to own!!!"

That last, from a smalltown Ohio farmer, in the cafe where I was grabbing a good burger, and had tacked some pro-gun material on the community bulletin board. As well, a general National gun registration doesn't especially bother a noticeable percentage of the attendees, when that is one of the questions being asked.

That not all of our fellow gun owners are even in the same phonebook, let alone on the same page shouldn't be much of a surprise. I doubt that a good many casual one-gun hunters are even aware of, or much care about, the deadly combination of Aunties packed into this Nat'l administration.

So? Well, a generalization is not a fact. An opinion is just that. Short of exhaustive and well conceived research on this divisive subject, the contributions brought here might be taken in a spirit of illuminating areas of which we might be unaware, or a rendering of what appears to be a common gun-public perception. Hardly worth vituperation and hard words, among like-minded folks in this tiny niche of self-selected gun fanciers.

In the meantime, check this out:

http://www.rocklintoday.com/news/templates/uc_davis_health.asp?articleid=8053&zoneid=75

Be sure to leave a comment on their comment box, should you find it either entertaining or nauseous. I'm curious to see if they are deleting adverse opinion.

John I think we all know our education system stinks.It is not that they are not taught the subjects.They are with a very liberal slant. Including people does not need guns. Because the robber,rapist or ???. will get hurt.!! you see it every day in the papers or on the news.In addition to that every day the liberal press and our esteemed leaders. Say we don't need guns. The law will take care of us.Simile
I know all of this can not be blamed on the education process.But when probably 90% of the teachers are liberal and try to teach our kids their liberal views and believes.( Brain Wash) them. And stop and think if you are a bomer etc,etc. The one place they seemed to be able to find work is being a Prof.
Don't get me wrong we need a good education system. But it needs to be balanced.In what is taught our children.
I know there is a lot of good people and good schools. But do to their fellow teachers etc. They are EXTREMALY QUITE.
As to Brent I know he loves his guns. And hase some very nice ones.I just think his opion is based on where he has been. And the people he pals with.And I woul bet the perchentage in any school is very small.
This all started when Michael was thinking about what to do with his files etc. Smomeday.And IMO I would rather see him sell them on Ebay.then leave them any college I can think off. JMHO>