I posted a link to photos of the rifle below, click on it and all the photos show up.


I am trying to date my A. Francotte Martini Rook rifle, I believe it is number 180?, as the patent was issued in 1878 and both the reciever and the action have the 180 stamped on them. The Belgian proof mark on the barrel is pre 1893 from what I am told but the other proof marks I do not know, 8.8 probly Cal. and the 30 in the middle on barrel is also stamped twice on the front of the reciever. The stock is Rosewood and the forend has two pieces that need repair and the horn front piece made. I have tried to post photos but have not figured that out yet, if you email me I can forward photos of the rifle and proof marks along with chamber cast information. I am hope to link it to the A. Francotte retail shop in London that was open at the time? Any information will help. rwiley111@sbcglobal.net

NOTE: photo's are posted on ( britishmilitariafourms.yuku.com/forums/3 ) under Francotte Martini Rook rifle [img]http://photobucket.com/albums/jj631/rwiley111[/img]

I posted a link to a photobucket album with photos of the A. Francotte Rook Rifle below. I still can not figure out how to put photo to the post.

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/jj631/rwiley111

At Photobucket at the bottom of each picture is a box with the words "IMG Code" in it. Click on the information in the box the word "Copied" will appear. Now all you have to do is right click and hit "Past" on your thread here.

Good luck,

The only way to date is that if the "ELG" proofmark has a crown over it, it is post 1893. Francotte made those Martini rook rifles from the late 1880s through the 1930s. Generally they were nicely made and the equal of British made Martini rook rifle. Its a shame Colin Greenwood elected to leave Martini rook rifles out of his otherwise fine rook and rabbit book.

Try this.First you have to get an account with a name and a password in Photobucket.
After you have got that sorted and logged into Photobucket, click on upload in the blue bar at the top of the screen.
Click on select photo's and video's.
As I have an Apple computer iphoto comes up with all the photo's I have on my computer. Click on the photo you want and then open. Bottom right hand corner on my computer.
You should then have a photo on Photobucket. Follow directions if you want to give it a title.
When you have your photo on Photobucket you will see a menu below it.
left click on the img code and the numbers on the right will turn Blue.
Right click on the numbers and on the menu that drops down, left click copy.
To transfer the photo here click on the fourth icon in the bar at the top of where you started your post.
Looks like a sheet of paper with the top right hand corner turned over.
Another menu will drop down and click on non floating image.
Right click on the next menu that drops down and then left click on Paste.
Thanks to Michael I learnt that you have to delete the [/IMG] at the end and beginning of the address.
Click on preview post and your post and photo should be there for all to see.
Nothing quite like a photo.
Regards, Roly.

I do it a little differently. I type the text I want in the 'reply' box (like I'm doing now), leaving the cursor blinking where I want the pic to show up. Then I close the entire thing by clicking on the 'reduction' icon (for lack of a better term) at the top RH corner of the screen. Then I re-open another portal by clicking on the same icon on the desktop that I used for the first one that is now hiding at the bottom of the screen. Using this second 'opening', I go to Photobucket and go through the selection process and click on 'copy' when instructed to do so. Then I pull up the original window in which I started writing the message and bingo, there's the cursor still blinking in the 'reply' window. Right click to get the prompts up, left click on 'paste', and presto, the image code appears as if by magic- which it surely is. Hit 'Preview reply' just to make sure everything is kosher, then submit. Close out the screen with Photobucket on it (the red X top RH corner) leaving you with this grand web site running, and proceed with your life!

Actually IIRC one of the first Francotte Cadet production runs was an 1880 contract with the Victoria, Australia government for training rifles. I've owned one of these early Victorian Government military contract actions (3-digit #) and also at present own 2 other early commercial Francotte Martini Cadets (4-digit #s). Interestingly, all repeat all the parts, pins, blocks, levers, etc will fully interchange between the Francottes and the BSAs except the deluxe Francottes with the rare side-mounted cocking indicator, some of their parts are different in order to accomodate the indicator. One of my Francotte Cadets has the side indicator and the other has the top-mounted one like the later BSAs. None of the commercial Francotte Cadets I've ever seen (admittedly not very many) have had the usual BSA split pin to retain the TG subassembly, all repeat all have had some variation of a solid pin with various types of lock-screw arrangements and spring detents on the left side.

I personally like the Francottes a LOT more than the BSAs even though they're visually and functionally identical. The only difference I can find is in the later BSAs' use of a split retainer pin for the TG subassembly rather than the Francottes' solid (and therefore IMO somewhat more elegant) pin.

Colin Greenwood DEFINITELY missed the boat on the Cadets IMO. I kept waiting for another volume devoted entirely to them but so far no joy. Either he couldn't find a publisher or else he musta had a brain fart (grin).
Regards, Joe

Joe I know you have some really super Martini's already done
or in progress. How about posting some pictures.?? I know I would enjoy them. Whitey

Yes, I think we could all do with some Martini-style inspiration!

This Braendlin made, Braddell retailed miniature Martini is my favorite.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/joel_black/braddellm.jpg[/img]http://[/img]

Assuming Wal Winfer's health improves, he plans to follow up his hammerless rook rifle book with one devoted to swinging block rook rifles like the Martinis and Sniders.

Sorry Whitey, my photobucket contents have become unavailable to me since their latest 'improvement'.

Obviously the electronic world doesn't believe in the old tried-&-true dictum, "If it ain't broke then don't try to 'fix' it!"
Regards, Joe

Joe for sure I know what you mean I have the same problem. Whitey

Joe had a couple pictures of your martini's in my computer. And asked Fred to post them. Hope you don't mind. Whitey

Ok, so here it goes, the new photobucket is confusing to me, but I will try. Here is one picture that Whitey sent me
martini1

This is a Greener takedown under construction and since traded off. The takedown method is the common split receiver ring with the subassembly pin used as the tightening mechanism. Engraving is by The Infamous Engraver, Ben Shelor (RIP Ben, you were 'a man to ride the river with' indeed).

Photo was taken to show the rib treatment for unobtrusive scope mounting. The chambering is 224 Maxi, a rimmed wildcat using the 357 Maximum case along with the 222 Rem chamber form. Just about perfect IMO for these little rifles except for being a wildcat.
Regards, Joe

Joe had another of 2 of your martini's .BUT with the mess can't get it to post. But Fred tried. Thanks Fred Whitey
PS Joe you are sure right about our friend Ben. I miss him all the time. And I still laugh about the time he said he needed all the 223 Gov't Brass. And wanted all I could find.And at that time I had a 55 Gal barrel full.Smile you can guess the rest. Whitey

Whitey I didn't hafta guess, Ben TOLD me!

For the rest of our colleagues here, Ben told me that he finally hadta threaten Whitey in order to get him to stop sending any more of that !@#$%^&! BRASS!

Simple pleasures for simple minds....(ROTFLMAO, a great way to remember my old friend)
Regards, Joe

PS don't want to hijack the thread, need to start a new thread if/when I can decipher Photobucket's latest improvement. Regards, Joe

Hello Joel,

The clue is in the title of Colin Greenwoods book, the operative word being 'CLASSIC' It's a matter of opinion I know, but some of us think that a Rook and Rabbit Rifle should be one designed and built specifically for such shooting rather than reboring or relining an existing rifle designed for another purpose to take a Rook Rifle round. It's horses for courses but what the hell. lol. To my mind the ideal Rook and Rabbit rifle is a lightweight single shot rifle of classic British sporting rifle lines. Not a converted military training rifle with all the balance of a lead brick. Just my opinion of course, and worth what you paid for it.

Harry

Harry,

This 297/250 I. Hollis Martini was purpose made and cataloged as a rook rifle. For that matter Greenwood did include miniature Snider rook rifles.

Harry, IMO you REALLY SHOULD look at some of Bob Snapp's creations before universally denigrating the converted militaries.

After all, the actions are, for all practical purposes, identical. The action parts will interchange between/among almost all the removable-subassembly models and makers, so basically the only difference is in the barrel and stocks.

Anyway, please take a close look at some of Bob's rifles and try to look at their shaping and general grace over and above all the glitz and bells&whistles.
Regards, Joe

Hello Joel,

Hollis may have built the rifle but it was chambered for what is reality, is a military or Cadet training cartridge. Hardly a Rook Rifle cartridge, although some may have used it for such a purpose. I'm also aware of the miniture Snider actions but these were built from scratch and in the correct proportions to fire Rook Rifle cartridges, they weren't built on a converted military rifle. What a tradesman calles the items he produces may be done to sell the item, but it may not conform to that ideal that purists call a Classic Rook Rifle. It's not all that different to all revolvers being called 'Colt's' and all lever actions being called Winchesters, it simply isn't true IMO. It all boils down to personal opinion in the end.

Harry