I am sure many of you saw this, but I wondered what you
might have thought of it and if anyone has some book or
gun digest or magazine with a picture of it. And no, I didn't
buy it.
Sukalle-Minar?
Good looking gun, aside from the engraving. Nice checkering, great barrel rib, good wood, horrible pad! Why anyone puts a pad on such a light recoiling rifle, I'll never understand. I wonder if the O'Connor note is legitimate or just an attempt to bump the price? O'Connor did own several Sukalle-Minar guns, though this gun is not listed in the Robert Anderson book about him.
According to the "Note" the rifle had a "German trap buttplate." Looks like someone later replaced it with that atrocity of a pad. Handsome rifle otherwise but could have done without the engraving.
I like the lines and looks overall, but a lot of the close-up details leave the rifle short IMO.
The wood/metal fit around the action isn't what I'd expect, kinda sloppy especially if someone like O'Connor was excepting of it.
The 4 holes in the front ring aren't comforting but may well be better looking than that engraving. The whole thing has been heavy handed buffed and blued anyway,, rounding details and edges. No telling what hides under the rear sight bridge as far as holes.
"...the bore looks quite good with decent rifling as well as quite shiny..." ,,,just say the bore is in fair condition only and be done with it.
The floor plate & TG engraving kind of looks like the same pattern as the top ring but don't. None should have never been hammered on to the gun.
The bbl address looks amateurish, maybe that's the way it was done by WmS. I don't have anything to compare it to and don't have any real knowledge to say one way or another if it's 'real'.
Grip cap engraving is way different than the rest but maybe the cap came engraved as a feature.
The butt pad, sad to see the 'German Trap Buttplate' gone. But that note,,?? I certainly wouldn't pay extra for that Bic-penned documentation!
I'd certainly stop and look at that rifle had I seen it on a table at a show or on the rack in a shop. Maybe in person it would lull me in to taking her home with me for the sold price. But just from what I can see, I'd have to do a bit of back and forth for a better price.
Just some observations over AM coffee.
william Sukalle was a barrel maker. Someone else (several of them in this case) did the rest of the work on "his" rifles. The barrel marking is likely his work; he did roll mark his Phoenix made barrels. I had a Winchester 54 with 7mm Rem Mag barrel by him with the caliber marking done with single stamps and on which Magnum was misspelled.
I suspect he bought the ribbed barrel blank on the subject rifle, possibly bored or rebored and rifled it. Perhaps installed it, but someone else almost certainly did the engraving and Minar may have done the stock,but as Kutter said, inletting does not seem up to his work.
I bought several handguns and rifles from him in 1964,after he was out of the barrel making business and retired as a hunter and target shooter. His wood working was crude and everything was "clunky", perhaps to fit his large hands.
replaced it with that atrocity of a pad
WJL, I enjoy your most accurate use of the english language in describing the pad
I bought this one.
Compare the checkering pattern on the pistol grip and the cheekpiece with those in photographs of the same in: Bob Hills, "O'Connor's Other Rifle," American Rifleman, April 1980, pp. 44-45, 80.
Dimmer, harder to make out photos of the same O'Connor .30-06 are on p.86 of Michael Petrov's first volume.
There can't be any doubt. This stock is by Adolph Minar and the barrel is by Bill Sukalle. I don't know who did the engraving.
This rifle came from an estate collection which had a bunch of very nice high-end guns. That little piece of paper doesn't prove it was Jack O'Connor's, but there were only 36 rifles stocked by Minar and O'Connor did own one with a Sukalle barrel chambered in 7x57. (See "The Rifle Book" p. 217.)
Congratulations on your acquisition, I hope that you will keep us updated and post some pictures when you get it.
[quote=David Zincavage]
That little piece of paper doesn't prove it was Jack O'Connor's, but there were only 36 rifles stocked by Minar and O'Connor did own one with a Sukalle barrel chambered in 7x57. (See "The Rifle Book" p. 217.)
True. But according to the Robert Anderson book, the 7x57 O'Connor owned was a Mauser action rifle.
I've been reading the Anderson book. I'm waiting for the rifle to arrive to compare the barrel length and weight of the rifle to his description.
Anderson's account of the sight situation is also incompatible with the Gun Broker rifle. O'Connor's Minar-Sukalle had:
"claw mounts with a German Girard scope and a Lyman 1A peep on the cocking piece and a ramp-mounted gold-bead front sight."
This one has, of those, only a ramp-mounted gold-bead front sight.
Sukalle, Anderson says, replaced the barrel once, and (cheery thought) in "The Rifle Book," p. 217, O'Connor says he got rid of the rifle because 139 gr. loads were wearing out the barrel's throat.
I am only wondering how the effusive compliments regarding Minar's work by the late Michael Petrov can likewise explain what "appears" to be rather sloppy inletting? Just musing!
H
I have yet to see the rifle in question, but I think the photographs may be misleading (angles & shadows) on the inletting front.
Some further information. I spoke to the dealer today. The rifle did not come from the estate of an Alfred Ronstadt. It was consigned by the estate manager for the last of three brothers. They all collected guns for 70 years, and the last survivor inherited the lot. (Apparently something like 600 guns.)
Not long ago the estate manager held a garage sale and sold piles and piles of gun and gunsmithing tools and accessories for derisory prices. The gun shop managed to save the last 10%, and they are looking for that missing buttplate.
They told me that the elderly surviving brother said that this rifle was very special. They are going to put him in touch with me to talk about its provenance.
[quote=David Zincavage ....they are looking for that missing buttplate. [/quote]
I wish you luck on that. I recently bought a rifle from an estate which was fitted with the base for a Griffin & Howe side mount and the base for a Lyman 35 receiver sight.
Although I sent photos of both the top slide of the G&H mount and the slide for the Model 35, at first there was no positive reaction. Eventually the scope and top slide for the G&H turned up, but the heirs insisted that they were not part of the sale price and wanted to be paid, so I reluctantly agreed. However, the price they wanted was less than a new set of G&H rings would cost, so that sweetened the deal considerably. The slide for the Model 35 is still missing.
The grain flow of the stocks don't match. Compare picture #4 with the picture on the second page of the American Rifleman article. Completely different grain flow. Also the gun pictures in the Am Rifleman has a recoil bolt, don't see any evidence of a repair to hide the hole on the Gunbroker pictures.
My .02-
I'd guess the stock on Gunbroker is a Minar (just not O'Connors Minar)and maybe the sloppy inletting is from the original barreled action and floorplate being replaced sometime in it's past.
My intention was not to imply that the .30-06 illustrated in that American Rifleman article was the same gun as the 7x57mm sold recently on Gun Broker. I was just noting the similarity of the pistol grip and its checkering pattern and the similarity of the cheek pieces on both rifles.
Used guns are what they are. I think J.O'connor handled the rifle at some point in the past,knowing what it was, he penciled the note for us. Thanks Jack!
The signature is a close match to an autograph I have.
A pic of Alaska grizzzly bear guide and his SIGNED Minar rifle.
There are more pics on my web site at:
http://www.finegunmaking.com/page32/page46/page46.html
Steven, Very nice rifle your friend must be proud.
The signature is the initials visible on the wood of the stock between the trigger & magazine openings?
The initial an A centered under an M.
Both Shoemaker and Petrov's Minar have this signature.
Dan.
It will be interesting to see if this one has the same when it arrives.
David, I notice the O'Conner note reads "Sukalle Tucson" and the barrel
reads Sukalle Phoenix. Any thoughts on that?
Maybe a rebarrel at a later date? Dan.
O'Connor's own Minar-Sukalle 7x57mm was re-barreled at least once, according to several published accounts. O'Connor says he got rid of it because 139 gr. 7mm bullets left a gap for gases to wear out the barrel's throat. So if he sold it in 1940 because the throat was wearing out and it was becoming inaccurate, the new owner (Alfred Ronstadt, according to Anderson) might well have had it re-barreled yet again.
Ya, makes a lot of sense!!! Thank you!
After a second look it appears that Tucson address was penciled in at a later date anyway. Dan.
The Internet is pretty handy. Last night, I found exactly what that missing buttplate looked like.
Phil Shoemaker has Jack O'Connor Sukalle-Minar .30-06, more photos
here .
Jack O'Connor's .30-06's Buttplate How do we know this is the same? Just compare:
O'Connor .30-06 Pistol Grip Cap with trap Just purchased Sukalle-Minar Pistol Grip cap with trap
Great bit of detective work. This is turning out to be one of the best threads in a long time.
More data.
Here's Jack O'Connor describing his 7x57 Mauser Sukalle-Minar:
http://www.gundigest.com/ammunition-reviews-articles/forty-years-little-7mmI got my first 7×57 rifle in 1934. I saw it at Bill Sukalle’s shop in Tucson. Bill had put a 7×57 barrel on a remodeled action from a World War I German Model 98 Mauser sniper’s rifle. It had been magnificently stocked in handsome French walnut by Adolph G. Minar of Fountain, Colorado, one of the finest classic stackers [sic] that ever lived. The stock had a German trap buttplate and a trap grip cap. It had as iron sights a Lyman 1-A peep on the cocking piece and a ramp front sight with gold bead. With iron sights, the rifle weighed slightly less than 7 pounds. However, it was equipped with a big German Gerard scope on claw mounts, which outfit added about two pounds. The scope was good optically, but because of the soft mount, it would not hold a constant point of impact. I traded the scope off. However, the rifle with iron sights was an astounding bargain at $75. That’s right-$75! I took off the Lyman 1-A and had a 4x Noske scope put on with the Noske mount. The outfit then weighed less than 8 pounds.
The 7×57 is loaded all over the world. Here is some of the good RWS (German) ammo.
I shot my first desert ram with that rifle, one of the best Rocky Mountain mule deer I have ever knocked off, and various other game — all with the Western factory 139-gr. open point bullet load. With one exception, everything I shot at with a 7×57 was a one-shot kill. That was a desert mule deer which I shot in one ham as he ran directly away and on which I used two cartridges. Then about 1952, I caught up. Hunting on Idaho’s Snake River with another 7×57, I picked out a nice fat doe and took a crack at her. Down the hill she rolled — and also a forkhorn buck that had been standing behind her.
Sadly enough, I traded off that lovely little Sukalle-Minar 7×57, along about 1940, for an equally handsome 2-R Lovell on a Sharps-Borchardt action. Like the 7×57, it had been barreled by Sukalle and stocked by Minar.So, his was a Mauser action with a Lyman cocking piece sight. The one on Gun Broker is a Springfield action with regular Lyman aperture sight.
But the two rifles are extremely similar. The must have been built very close together in time. They both have the same furniture otherwise, and the Gun Broker rifle has a written description apparently by Jack O'Connor, giving it some kind of mysterious connection to O'Connor.
So there is, or was, a Sukalle/Minar Lovell out there somewhere?
John
John, Yes and I think Bradford O'Connor still owns it. It is on a Sharps Borchardt action. There a lots of pictures of it here and there.
The Sukalle-Minar arrived yesterday. There was a bit of comedy over at my FFL dealer's shop. When I arrived to pick up the gun, Ben looked gloomy and said "You're not going to be happy." (I had specifically asked him to be especially careful not to lose the piece of paper describing the rifle, believed to be signed by Jack O'Connor.)
Photo 25 Ben said the paper was missing. He had not unpacked the rifle from the bubble wrap, but he had looked everywhere in the cardboard box and the plastic gun case used for shipment. Ben had even looked under the foam rubber on both sides of the case. When I dissected away the tape and bubble wrap, still no paper turned up.
Ben grabbed up the rifle, threw open the bolt, and looked disappointed again. No paper.
"Look in the trap." I suggested. He looked puzzled, and I explained: "Under the pistol grip." The slot on that pistol grip cap is tiny, and you actually can't get a fingernail into it. Ben produced a pocketknife and pried it open.
Inside was was a tiny white object. It was the missing paper, folded many times into a little ball. It was clear that this was where the paper was found by the Arizona gun dealers who auctioned the gun. It was just a torn off half of a page from a very old note pad with the information and signature hastily scrawled on the reverse side of it. You had only to look at it to see that the paper was very old and had to be an authentic statement of provenance deliberately kept with the gun by a previous owner.
Flygas didn't like the engraving. Chacun à son goût, of course. But the engraving is obviously extremely high quality work. The pistol grip cap and the currently-missing buttplate featured an elaborate, abstract, possibly somewhat Teutonic kind of scroll, but the receiver, floor-plate, and trigger guard are engraved differently, obviously making some kind of personal reference to the home region of the original owner. There are multiple large flowers (I have not yet arrived at a firm conclusion as to the identity of those flowers) on the receiver. Another of those and associated foliage frames the panel on the floor-plate. And there is one more of those on the trigger guard. The floor-plate panel (upside down in photo 22) seems to feature a Western landscape. There is a lake framed by hills, one hill descending on the left front, two hills, the second higher than the first, rising on the right front, and behind a range of five hills rising each higher than the last from left to right, four birds and patches of clouds in the sky above them, with the sun just peeking over the notch between the two farthest to the right hills. The style is, I think, specifically Southwestern.
Some Goth or Vandal has really badly messed up the receiver engraving in the course of mounting a scope. There are three screw holes with screws, one additional hole (plugged), and some shoemaker located the receiver's center by scribing criss-cross diagonals right over the engraving and then defining the center point with a punch.
I think I've got it. The engraved flowers on the receiver are sunflowers. The most important flower, on the floor-plate, is a prairie rose Rosa arkansana. Prairie roses are the state flowers of Iowa and North Dakota. The two screws holding the action in the stock, front and back, go right through two different flowers.
One other note. It is not really a recoil pad. The thing on the end is made of a hard material with a grain, maybe plastic, but I think more likely wood. It is attached to the stock with two screws, visible inside those holes. The rear isn't soft. There is a metal back plate which inserts into the faux recoil pad. To get at the screws to remove the whole thing, I think you would insert a screwdriver through those holes and tap out the metal backplate which fits flush with the end of the "recoil pad." I guess this was stuck on to lengthen the stock for some previous owner, probably the same fiend who had the receiver engraving mutilated.
Congratulations on getting it. I hope that you will post more
pictures of the rifle including some of the inletting. Have you taken the action out of the stock yet?
Yes, I looked. I did not see any initials. I will take some more photos, but I plan to do them outside for better light, and it rained yesterday and is raining again today.
[quote=David Zincavage]Flygas didn't like the engraving. Chacun à son goût, of course. But the engraving is obviously extremely high quality work.
I'm sorry. I meant no offense. The photos don't show the engraving so well and it didn't appear to be of high quality. But you obviously know guns, so I'm sure you know and it's better in person. Engraving aside, I do like the gun and it seems you found an interesting treasure. Congratulations.
Larry Peters in Odessa, WA is doing some restoration engraving for me on an Optimus Lefever. I think you could improve the receiver ring without removing all the engraving, just some flush plugs and let a good engraver do the rest. Depending upon how deeply scored the "X" is,you may have to live with part of it.
Nice rifle by a seldom seen stockmaker!
Looking closely at the criss-cross diagonals on the receiver ring, I think that was part of the original engraving. The lines of the large X seem to be the base for the small somewhat triangular stippled areas. In other words, the criss-cross lines appear to have been there before those stippled areas were applied. Even the center punch dot at the center of the X may be part of the original engraving, because there are numerous other punch dots at the front and rear of the receiver ring. If that punch mark was supposed to be a center point for laying out a center line for the scope base screw holes, whoever did it didn't come close. But I believe the intent was decorative. After seeing some recent jobs in the main forum where screw holes in shotgun ribs were plugged and then engraved to match the rib matting, I agree with what Terry said about plugging and engraving.
Flygas, no offense taken. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion.
I've bought two engraving books, trying to figure out whose work it was.
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Terry Buffum,
Thanks for the Larry Peters reference. I was thinking about trying to find somebody like that.
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Still raining. I need a bright day, because I'm a lousy photographer.
I managed to get the old Sports Afield Gun Annual with the John Jobson article on Minar:
John Jobson 1 John Jobson 2 John Jobson 3 John Jobson 4 John Jobson 5 Please excuse the odd color. My old scanner won't work with the more recent MS OSs. I bought a new one from China, and I'm still very klutzy using it.
The weather is improving. Tell me specifically what you want photographed.
I had not used my camera in a few years, and was rusty today. I took only a couple of photos. One (sort of) came out. Here's the floorplate:
Floorplate
Thanks for the article and the picture of the floorplate, it looks much
nicer in your picture than it did on the auction website.
My camera, I think, is not working properly. The upperside shots were no good at all. I managed to repair enough of this one of the underside inletting to make it barely tolerable.
Underside Inletting Compare middle photo on p. 86 of Petrov's first volume.
Here's a comparison of the .257 Minar illustrated by Mike Petrov with the 7x57 Mauser Minar:
Underside inletting compared There will be some more photos.
Interesting, the only difference seems to be the trigger slot and the raised portion surrounding it, both of which were evidently altered to accomodate the after market trigger.
