I saw this on proxibid,

400 Whelen Mauser

Does anyone have any ideas on who made this rifle?

It's funny how often the auction houses call Lyman rear sights Redfield. Don't know who made it but it went for nearly 3 times the high estimate.

I have no idea what the attraction was. It's about as plain vanilla a rifle as you are likely to find at an auction and to make it, someone had to shoehorn a cartridge into it which a Springfield 1903 or 1917 Enfield would have easily accommodated. There is also no mention of which version of the .400 Whelen the rifle is chambered for, the original, or the one with the headspace problem.

I agree with xausa. It doesn't seem all that special to me and I can't understand what makes it worth half the price it sold for.

I'll be the odd man out. I really like it, both the shape of the stock and the minimal engraving. Rare cartridge, makes me wonder if someone connected to G&H may have made it. Hammered for far more than I would pay, but I do think it was made by a very good gunmaker.

Any thoughts as to why a 27 inch barrel? Seems odd.

The overall design of the stock could be G&H, but the checkering isn't in my opinion. G&H checkering is finer, covers more area of the stock and is of a different pattern. The treatment below the ejection port is different, also:




I don't believe many rifles made it out of the G&H shop without a scope. At least, I have never seen one in the flesh.

The knob on the bolt handle would seem to indicate that the action is commercial, but the lack of a serial number seems to indicate otherwise.

I was thinking possibly built by a worker at G&H but not by the company itself as every rifle I have seen by them carried a serial # on the barrel. I like long barrels on rifles but 27" is a bit odd, especially on a bolt gun. That Whelen has a tight pistol grip and a bunch of drop at the heel. 1/4 rib kind of reminds me of some I have seen on Hoffman rifles.

I have to agree with SKB. The engraving is quite impressive. I can't see anything plain about the rifle. The lines are perfect for the era. As for lacking a scope, lots of G&Hs weren't scoped. Still, the price went awfully high. I've noticed that quite often lately; gun show prices seem to sag, but auctions do really well- at least for the auction companies.

Interesting way the front ring was opened up for a longer cartridge. I do not believe I have seen it done that way before. It looks very nice.

I think the engraving is very nice. I think the rifle is a Neidner.
I seem to remember seeing it offered at auction or on Gun Broker before, and having trouble making $1000, because of the unusual wildcat cartridge which lacks even loading data in the usual references.

Don't know who made it but a clue may be hand engraved on the top of the left action rail.
In the last pic,,the one that shows the hand engraved caliber marking,,you can see just the last couple of letters engraved on the top of the left rail of the action.
A makers name perhaps?

That caliber marking on the bbl is very well done, something not always the case even when simple Block or Roman letters are chosen.

I'd almost throw in a guess that the engraver was Jos Fugger,,at least of the floor plate.
He did so many different styles and this was one of them. The Bison head is featured on some of his other work.
But that doesn't pin it down to that person of course as the style and that figure could have been done by any number of capable artists.

The floor plate engraving is quite involved if you enlarge it and study it. The Bison figure is in an oval, nothing different there.
But the oval is surrounded by broad shaded rolled scrolls and a pedestal device an each side of it as if the figure pushed it way out of the background.
A lot more to it than just the cut scroll work flowing outward from there.

The trigger guard area looks blank, or the picture didn't pick up any of the engraving there.
27" bbl doesn't look out of place on it. Maybe the length is a metric thing, the rifle being made up by a European gunsmith type.

The 1/4 rib & sights does remind me of a Hoffman too.
Worth 5K?,,I don't know. I guess it is as someone payed that for it.
I'm forever being told that Golden Law of 'What's it Worth'.
I certainly would have payed $1000 had I seen it for sale somewhere.

Plenty of candidates for the maker:

"The original 400 Whelen was developed by a group of experienced and knowledgable men back in the 1920's. Townsend Whelen, James V. Howe and barrel maker Adolph O. Nieder. I believe that Fred Adolph, who developed the 30 Adolph express, later called the 30 Newton, was also involved in this project. The caliber was a brain child of Whelen, the rifles made by Howe and the barrels were made and installed by Nieder. There is some evidence that Whelen and Adolph corresponded on the 38 Whelen, which died away after Winchester discontinued the 275 grain 38-72 bullet, and likely corresponded on the 400 as well. Of course the rifle makers of Griffin&Howe and Hoffman were involved in making many rifles for Whelen designed cartridges."

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/18621-The-400-Whelen

Clearly, there were two guys who thought they knew what it was.

Still looking for the Cape Buffalo... Where do they get these guys?

Hammer price was $5500, plus 20% commission, $6600 plus tax and shipping.

This is a very nice rifle which I too was hoping to pick up under the radar so to speak.
Also, I think I have a pretty good idea of its origins.
There was another fine rifle in the auction that, although a different sort of rifle, helped me to reach my conclusion.
Lot #360 is a Webley & Scott Mauser 300H&H Magnum.
Superb rifle, and I knew I had seen that style before somewhere.
After thinking about it, I remembered seeing that very rifle offered in the 1931 Stoeger catalog.
There it was! Pictured exactly as the rifle in the auction.
Webley & Scott rifle - square bridge magnum Mauser, H&H cocking piece peep, everything original and correct right down to the sling!
Of course, that one rallied at the auction to a price too much to consider.
So, back to the 400.
Also in that very catalog, right in the front, is a section devoted to Col. Townsend Whelen.
On offer are stocking to Whelen's specifications, accessories to his specs (grip caps, butt plates, etc.)all of which are applied to the rifle in question.
The following pages are devoted to the engraving offered by Stoeger.
Stoeger employed master engravers at the time and offered some very impressive work. The catalog shows five floorplate designs but also remarks that anything could be engraved to the customer's instruction.
It's my belief that what we are looking at is a custom rifle ordered straight from Stoeger.
They certainly had the talent in house to build the rifle and that would explain the various styling cues applied to the rifle as well as the omission of any mark or signature of the maker or engraver.
Its easy to get caught up in attributing work to single particular craftsmen or makers. I do it too - "boy, engraving sure looks like Kornbrath... stock must be Adolph...got to be a Hoffman!" especially when bidding at auction - hope springs eternal as they say.
Superb rifle none the less.

Would you please post some relevant pictures from the catalog.

First, here is the ad and auction picture of the Webley & Scott 300H&H





Now, to the 400.

Here, the general outline of the rifles is apparent.
The one major difference is the quarter rib on the auction rifle.
The Stoeger ad is for a Springfield of course, but the same stocking and features were offered for Mausers, Winchesters, Enfields etc.






Here, examples of the engraving Stoeger offered.



A comparison of the catalog style and the rifle.
Of course, there would be variations as to the subject and which engraver was actually doing the work, but one thing I noticed is the use of scrolls, as in paper scrolls, and a rope border framing the animal as well as the treatment around the floorplate release button.








Here, the buttplate style and trap are very similar. The swivels on the auction rifle are referred to as detachable "as recommended by Col. Whelen" in the catalog.
The grip cap was offered engraved with a trap if desired.

Nice bit of deduction and correlation to known offerings. I would suspect you are spot on the money. Comparing the features of the W&S along with the engraving styles offered in Stoeger's catalog would/will probably be the only confirmation you will get. Regardless, a beautiful rifle that was on my watch list as I am sure it was on many others. Congrats.
Thaine

I didn’t get either of these rifles although I did place what ended up being meager bids.
Both of these rifles were two of the better bolt guns in the auction but went for close to full retail in my opinion.

SR Griffin / Kornbrath is my vote. I’m fairly certain I’ve seen that bison in Kornbrath catalogs or rifles attributed to him. I know, I know, they’re all Kornbrath...

I’m 95% on SRG. Checkering pattern is known, the rounded bottom of the stock adjacent to the floorplate, no cheek piece, overall shape of the butt especially the comb nose, long forend. Little doubt.

There were several early SRG stocked rifles that had Pope barrels. Pope liked them long and could certainly do 27”. Not sure who else was making anything longer than 26”? On a Pope barrel there was an unusually long straight section just in front of the receiver. This one isn’t Exactly the same, but it’s not the standard contour either.

Take a look at Dan’s SRG / Pope on another thread

I think it’s was on the low side of retail if that’s what it is.

How about this scenario: A W&S rifle, ordered without the cocking piece sight, Lyman 48 sight substituted, rebarreled by an unknown gunsmith, in a caliber longer than the action was designed for, the non-hinged floorplate bottom metal substituted later for the original bottom metal, which would have had a magazine box too short to accommodate the .400 Whelen.

If it's a Pope barrel it should have his code for the bore data stamped on the underside of the barrel. Many had his name stamped on the top, but not always. Especially so on his later barrels.

I feel strongly the 400 Whelen was made in this country and I don’t think that engraving was sitting on a shelf at Stoeger. This is a very high class original looking rifle to me.

There are pictures of Col Whelen’s 35 Whelen (originally a 400 Whelen) with that same engraving on the receiver. I’ll try to find pics tonight and post some comparisons.

Thanks Huvius for posting those images.

There is an interesting article here

Whelen 400 article

I write specifically of the article from the Sept 1923 issue of the American rifleman. In it, Whelen himself describes the introduction of the 400 Whelen and how they are being made on Springfield, Enfield and Mauser actions of the 8mm type. The rifles pictured seem to have longer barrels.

You can see in that article the ballistics of the .400 measured used A 27-inch barrel. Aswell the article mentions how each rifle will feature minimal engraving with options for more elaborate patterns. The quarter rib is also mentioned as being standard on the new .400 Whelen.

The W&S and the 400 Whelen have nothing to do with each other.
I just showed that as I had the catalog with the same model W&S rifle offered that also happened to have a similar offering as the 400.

The engraving that Stoeger offered wasn’t sitting on a shelf waiting for a customer. It was done to the customer’s wishes by very talented craftsmen.

Here I found another mention of the introduction of the .400 Whelen in February 1st 1923 edition of arms and man hosted on https://www.hathitrust.org

The .400 Whelen rifle is a very high grade weapon
of high power, made for those who desire the very
best, regardless of expense. It is made by hand and
costs $450.00, complete with ammunition, cases, re
loading and cleaning tools, etc. No circular regarding it
has been issued, only a brief announcement.
The entire output for the next year has already
been engaged


Interestingly $450 in 1923 inflation adjusted is just about $6600 Today.

With that last piece of information about inflation cost seems to me the buyer got a bargain.

Indeed, but seven years later you could fill up the back seat of the car with them for $100 and change.

Gary, can you explain?

I think Gary may be referring to the great recession.

I don't know what he was referring to. But whatever it was, I must have slept through it.

Brent,
They are really referring to the great Depression. You didn't sleep through it, you weren't even a gleam in your old man's eye in 1929. To find out about it, you would have to ask your grand daddy.
Mike

Well, that's good news. I'd hate to think that I missed out. Indeed, I didn't as pretty much all the firearms on both sides of the family, plus others came down to me. Albeit, they weren't big accumulators, much less collectors.

Seven years after 1923= 1930, when the bottom had dropped out of the economy and previously well off guys were selling their stuff at pennies on the dollar to survive.

Hmmm okay,
2 points, first the $6500 inflation estimate already would have accounted for the depression decline of values, in other words if no depression the $6500 might be more like $8000 today
But second, and more important, filling the back seat may have been problematic since I doubt they ever made enough to do so. LOL

Thanks Steve

The metal Work on this Mauser looks very similar to work done on my .400 Whelen Springfield Barrel by James V. Howe.