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Posted By: LRF New project starting - 09/16/20 08:58 PM
This is Dutch Mannlicher M1895 made by Steyr in 1896. Just starting and will probably take better part of the coming year. (A new barrel from Kreiger will take 4-5 months itself). Many proposed changes like new bolt handle, change to 7x57 rimmed, all new sights (front, 3-4 leaf express, and a new design for a peep sight similar to the Lyman 36 which I will make), I hope to modify the magazine system to a detachable 5 shot magazine, double set triggers, and of course a new stock. Its a tall order and I expect this list to be dynamic as this project is just for me and my wants.
Posted By: Hoot4570 Re: New project starting - 09/16/20 10:44 PM
I will be interested in your progress. There are 5 (or 6?) of those Dutch rifles here at Casa Hoot. Two are sporters. I do like them.
Posted By: craigd Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 01:52 AM
Fun project, I've been on the look out for one myself. A Mclaughlin peep sight seems interesting, and I may just go ahead and order one to gather parts. I can't get enough of those early 6.5's so the 53mmR it will stay for me. I might get lucky, but figuring on a rebarrel. I'm curious what you do for the set triggers and your magazine idea. I'm looking at maybe a top loading mod. so the lines stay the same, but it doesn't drop the clip. Thanks for showing it.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 12:10 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
..... A Mclaughlin peep sight seems interesting,.....

The Rigby type peeps are certainly interesting and handsome and would be a fine choice.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 01:02 PM
LRF,
Suggest you look at Recknagle's offerings for express sights, double set triggers, claw mounts, etc. for your project. The Rigby peep sight, and other "striker mounted sights", look nice, but slow lock time down. Recknagel has a website.
Mike
Posted By: Kutter Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 01:59 PM
Nice project,,love the Mannlicher rifles.

I'd include the small spring loaded 'door' on the bottom of the existing magazine system to capture the expended enbloc clip. Often seen on the GEW88 sporters, I've seen them on the Mannlicher sporters as well.
That keeps the magazine & feed system in tact. IMO that's much of the charm of the rifle to begin with.

I have a sporter carbine built on a Romanian M93 Mannlicher.
A betw the Wars build as it was a bring-back souvenier from WW2.

It has DST and they cut on the orig trigger guard and inserted a shotgun style trigger guard to lock into it to give the extra room for them.
It also gives a nice look to the now full stock carbine.

I can dig it out and post some pics of the carbine and the DST & how they worked over the trigger guard(s) if you'd like.
Just gives another way of doing things, maybe some ideas for you.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Kutter
........
I can dig it out and post some pics of the carbine and the DST & how they worked over the trigger guard(s) if you'd like.
Just gives another way of doing things, maybe some ideas for you.

Always interested in how someone else resolved the design issue. I will look forward to seeing the pics. Thanks
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 02:22 PM
I had one in the shop that had a Fraser patent trigger. I should have taken pics but failed to do so. I know the owner of the rifle well and will see if he may have time to take pictures.
Posted By: craigd Re: New project starting - 09/17/20 05:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Der Ami
...."striker mounted sights", look nice, but slow lock time down. Recknagel has a website.
Mike

No doubt about it, sun dial slow. I have other rifles that are really good with their lock time, itís just for appearance. The McLaughlin sight is a quality piece at a very fair price, most decent single shot tang sights are a good twice as much. I like the British sporting bolt rifle look and this action is a classic for a fun project?
Posted By: PhysDoc Re: New project starting - 09/18/20 12:53 AM
It looks like it will be a great project, I liked your Lyman 36 copy and think one would look great on this rifle. Cocking piece sights are cool looking, but by the 1930's, gunsmiths like Clyde Baker and J.V. Howe weren't particularly keen on them. It was the combination of slower lock time and the play in the cocking piece.

I hope that you will post a lot of pictures of the progress along the way.

Here, I am working on something similar, a sporter based on the Portuguese Vergueiro action, but progress is glacial.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 09/18/20 12:46 PM
Fred,
The Portuguese Vergueiro is a nice rifle action and it will make a good project. I did consider using one of them however the Dutch came along first.
I certainly can make another Lyman 36 but I am keeping my options open. Looking at designing my own sight.
The cocking piece sights do effect lock time, however on a Dutch Mannlicher, as well as all of similar design, one thing they can not be accused of is having light weight cocking pieces. smile A small Rigby peep would have minimal effect.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 09/21/20 03:38 PM
I am also giving thoughts to instead of a Lyman 36 receiver type sight or a cocking piece sight, but a pop up tang sight. Similar to those offered by Steyr/Mannlicher. I have pictures of them in the stock and popped up but none with the metal out of the stock. If anyone has any of just the metal out of the wood I would appreciate seeing them. If you have any and can't post pics then let me know and I will send you a PM with an email address and I can post the pics for you.
Thanks in advance.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/08/20 04:41 PM
Update on the project. First I ordered a 7mm barrel from Krieger barrel with a custom light weight contour that pretty much matches what Steyr was doing when this rifle was originally made. It will be early next year before I get it. I chose 7mm as I will make it a 7 x 57 Rimmed. This case is much more available and actually fits the original bolt face and feeds well using the enbloc clips this gun was made for. BTW, I was surprised to and has made me re-think the magazine changes but time will tell.
I removed the original barrel from the action and man was that a bear. Had to make a custom action wrench jaws but the barrel did come off with significant persuasion.
I already have a nice blank for the stock so I focused on making sights. I have never made an express type sight before so this is my first and it works well. I learned a lot and some tricks and "don't do's". I may or may not use it cause I have time to make others. The hinge style on the one pictured is what I would call "american style" but the english sights used a little different method and I will try to make one like they were. They require some custom shaper type tools so I need to make them first. I won't finish fitting and polishing until further along on the project
Anyway thats were I am at and I attached a few pics:


Posted By: Gary D. Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 02:43 AM
Originally Posted By: LRF
I am also giving thoughts to instead of a Lyman 36 receiver type sight or a cocking piece sight, but a pop up tang sight. Similar to those offered by Steyr/Mannlicher. I have pictures of them in the stock and popped up but none with the metal out of the stock. If anyone has any of just the metal out of the wood I would appreciate seeing them. If you have any and can't post pics then let me know and I will send you a PM with an email address and I can post the pics for you.
Thanks in advance.


Weren't those pop-up tang sights merely "light focusers" for sharpening the sight picture presented by the front and rear sights on the barrel, seeing as how they are not adjustable for elevation or windage?

Keenly following this project. Looking good!
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 11:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
..... seeing as how they are not adjustable for elevation or windage?


The ones I have seen are adjustable for elevation but no windage. I do not know about the actual purpose and may be as you say. But I have moved away from the tang sight idea and am again looking at traditional open sights/peep sights. As I await a barrel I have time to noodle on the project. smile
Posted By: PhysDoc Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 11:29 AM
great looking express sights, any good tips on how to make them, I would love to make some for some of my projects.
Posted By: Vall Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 03:06 PM
Those sights are elevation adjustments. The whole idea of express sights was to flip up a different height blade for various distances. Some were even stamped with a distance on each blade so the shooter could estimate the distance to game, and pick the blade height he needed to hit accurately.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 07:18 PM
LRF, I'm not criticizing your barrel choice but want to remind all here that you can get a barrel from Douglas in two weeks. For me at 80 (in 2 wks) that's a real plus. I've used them exclusively for 25 yrs and always had fine results.
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 07:24 PM
Originally Posted By: PhysDoc
great looking express sights, any good tips on how to make them, I would love to make some for some of my projects.


120 degree mill drill cuts the V shape beautifully, angle block provides the back draft.

Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/09/20 11:53 PM
SKB thanks for the picture of your fixture and cutter, it is similar to one that I will make once I have the actual sights I will use finished. Once sights have been installed on the project and test fired at 200 yards I will then measure the impact positions at 200 yards I will calculate the required sight elevation adjustments and mill the notches close, leaving just a little for fine tuning at the range. At least its the plan.

Fred,
You asked about tips and tricks and SKB has given you a good one. And it is not that exact fixture he has shown but rather jigs and fixtures in general will make the process of building these machining intense sights easier. The downside of my comment is it is easy to find yourself spending more time on tooling then actual making the product. If your only planning one offs the process can be time expensive. But being retired I have time. smile
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/10/20 12:21 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
LRF, I'm not criticizing your barrel choice but want to remind all here that you can get a barrel from Douglas in two weeks. For me at 80 (in 2 wks) that's a real plus. I've used them exclusively for 25 yrs and always had fine results.

If your comment about being 80 implies your time left on earth is limited, well I am 70 and if I don't get the barrel before I am not here anymore, would I know? .....No
Posted By: craigd Re: New project starting - 10/10/20 04:31 PM
Thanks for the updates. That picture of your express sight made me think, possibly order a little bit of platinum wire and tap it in to that center eye alignment groove. Maybe, with that British styled express sight, revisit the striker peep configuration. Only thinking out loud, nothing more.

I wouldn't have the slightest qualms with your barrel choice, have you ever considered the Brux folks. I ask only for curiosity if they are held in good regard around the area?
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/10/20 07:07 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
.....
I wouldn't have the slightest qualms with your barrel choice, have you ever considered the Brux folks. I ask only for curiosity if they are held in good regard around the area?


I have not looked at Brux so can't help. Krieger are nice and I have had excellent results with them.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/27/20 09:34 PM
Continuing to move forward on the project. Its slow because the barrel is still some months away but a few things are coming together. I now have a design plan for the magazine, set trigger setup and takedown design. I have physically been working on sights and the bolt handle. I have attached two pics: another design for a 3 leaf express and the new bolt handle welded and rough finished. Oh, also decided to make a Lyman 36 type peep sight. Will show when I get it done.

Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/07/20 09:20 PM
Update: Made the peep sight for the project. It is basically a Lyman 36 with my own spin and improvements. It will be final finished and elevation and windage hash marks added after testing.


Posted By: PhysDoc Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 01:12 AM
Beautiful work, thanks Lynn for sharing it.
Posted By: BrentD Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 01:20 AM
Looking good. Will the scales be verniers?
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 05:55 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
.....Will the scales be verniers?

Yes....."A vernier scale is a visual aid to take an accurate measurement reading between two graduation markings on a linear scale by using mechanical interpolation; thereby increasing resolution and reducing measurement uncertainty by using vernier acuity to reduce human estimation error."
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 08:04 PM
What a great project. I look forward to progress reports at every stage.
Posted By: BrentD Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: LRF
Originally Posted By: BrentD
.....Will the scales be verniers?

Yes....."A vernier scale is a visual aid to take an accurate measurement reading between two graduation markings on a linear scale by using mechanical interpolation; thereby increasing resolution and reducing measurement uncertainty by using vernier acuity to reduce human estimation error."


It's a bit more than that. Just like a slide rule is a bit more than a generic yardstick.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 10:45 PM
As I said in the original posting, I am changing the rifle to 7x57 R from the 6.5x53 R. Wanting to do that of course could mean issues with the magazine system and feeding. Early on I made up some dummy 7mm cartridges and tested to see if they would fit and feed. Imagine my joy to find out it would work without major issues. So I didn't need to develop a new mag box. One of the things I did not like about the original Dutch Mannlicher was the trigger bow. To say the least it was BIG. And was not conducive to adding double set triggers. There was lots of room inside the bow but not in back for the set trigger. So I have attached a mock up picture of my modified mag box with double set triggers and a new trigger bow. The space between the front of the new T bow and the back of the mag box allows for access to the cartridge clip release button, so that works nicely IMO.

The design process is one of the more enjoyable parts of any project! smile
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/08/20 11:01 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
It's a bit more than that. Just like a slide rule is a bit more than a generic yardstick.


No, not really, a venier scale device is just a measurement method/device, but a slide ruler ain't no yardstick and you can't measure anything with it. A slide ruler would be more akin to a generic scientific calculator. In fact it was until HP started building calculators and ended the need for them. I haven't used one in more then 50 years, but I think I still have one in my office desk.
Posted By: BrentD Re: New project starting - 11/09/20 12:57 AM
Okay. If ya got all the answers, I guess you are good to go. I've seen too many homemade and even some commercial sights that were nicely made except for being wrongly calibrated.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/09/20 02:15 AM
Apparently you missed this statement in my earlier posting, "It will be final finished and elevation and windage hash marks added after testing."
Defined, "elevation and windage hash marks", ie: the venier scales.
And "after testing", means shooting the rifle on the range at known distances so as to calibrate the markings to actual

I hope that answers your question
Posted By: Gary D. Re: New project starting - 11/10/20 12:06 PM
Origin of the DST's, Lynn?

When you disassemble the sight for finishing would it be possible to see how you designed the cam/spring arrangement for the pivoting post? Thanks.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/10/20 01:38 PM
The double set triggers are NOS sold by Brownells. They were typically used on Mausers. I have them so decided to use instead of making from scratch.

Yes to your second question
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/11/20 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Origin of the DST's, Lynn?

When you disassemble the sight for finishing would it be possible to see how you designed the cam/spring arrangement for the pivoting post? Thanks.

Gary, here is a picture of the set triggers all inlet into the rifle bottom metal and cross pinned.
And a picture of the peep sight internal mechanism that allows the swing arm to move out of the way of the bolt handle and return to battery position. Its just a camming action, however the way I do it to cut the diameter of the cam surface a little bit smaller then the shaft diameter. This means you can spin the swing arm around 360 degrees and out of the way if desired without any other retaining feature to keep it held in place. I think Lyman used an additional pin or screw to accomplish the retaining of the swing arm. I can't actual swear to that as I have actually never seen or examined a Lyman 36 other then in pictures

Posted By: Hammergun Re: New project starting - 11/11/20 10:34 PM
Nice work on that sight. What a cool project.
Posted By: Gary D. Re: New project starting - 11/12/20 12:01 AM
Thanks for pics, Lynn. Nice job of work. Very nice.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/14/20 11:48 PM
The trigger guard is installed. There is a claw on the top front of the guard that I silver soldered on which fits into a mortise cut in the bottom metal in front of the triggers.
Now need to get the sear to function and fire the striker when the trigger is pulled either by itself or in conjunction when the set trigger is cocked
Posted By: Der Ami Re: New project starting - 11/15/20 02:47 PM
LRF,
When intalling a Mauser DST in another type rifle, it is common to weld an extension onto the "kicker" that fits to the sear, to adapt to the particular rifle. Also the military sear spring always has to be shortened in order for the spring in the DST to be able to overcome it and trip the sear. I guess you know this, but I couldn't tell from the statements above, this is not an insult.
Mike
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/15/20 04:08 PM
Thanks Der Ami, yes I did know this, however no problem with sharing information for those that may not know. Always an issue on what info I should share and what isn't necessary to say. Thanks again for your input.
Posted By: Chuckster Re: New project starting - 11/16/20 02:34 AM
Don't hesitate on the details. Some of us are learning.
Chuck
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/16/20 01:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Chuckster
Don't hesitate on the details. Some of us are learning.
Chuck
LOL smile , as well as me.
I made great progress on the set trigger / sear kicker configuration and got it to work well. Now some further refinement work and maybe I can post a picture of that.
I have been feeling under the weather for about a week now. My sons family lives with me and apparently they all have tested positive for the COVID so I am getting tested today. Most likely I have it also and will know in a couple days. So far it hasn't been bad and I have been quarantined so having this project is nice. Anyway, back to the firing mechanism later this morning.
Thanks Chuck for your kind comment
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/16/20 01:44 PM
A question came up on how the peep sight swing arm is retained in the elevation arm. Maybe a little more detail will help. Lyman used a small screw (verified by Fred, thanks). When I first made one of these peep sights, back in the spring for my MS M1910, I first created a 3D model to test my design thoughts. So I have attached a section view from that 3D model which clearly shows how the swing arm is always captured even while swinging the arm around 360 degrees.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/16/20 07:45 PM
The kicker made and it works. Gun fires whether set trigger is set or just using the front trigger. In final finish the kicker will be hardened and polished


Next is work on the takedown concept and doing the mods to the action before the barrel arrives in a few weeks. (I hope)
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/09/20 10:27 PM
Thought I should update on the project as its been a few weeks since last I posted. The reason is because I caught the COVID in mid November and was quite sick for 3 weeks only starting to improve last Thursday and since then trying to re-build my strength. The VID is a real pisser and don't Poo Poo it especially if your older.
Well back to the project... At the beginning I talked about modifying the magazine system. What I didn't like was that while bolting the last round out of the enbloc clip it would fall out the bottom of the action onto the ground and possibly get lost. The clips for these guns are not readily available so trying to retain it was a priority. I wanted o design a catch that would stop the falling clip and then it could be removed when I wanted.
I have attached 2 pictures of my solution. The first is the catch in the closed position and then with the catch swung down to allow the clip to fall out. The catch is activated by the same clip release button used to unload a loaded clip up thru the top. I have some finishing work yet to do but it works nicely and I am happy with it.

Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/26/20 11:34 PM
Got the receiver inlet into the stock. I am waiting the barrel which is due in a few weeks



Long ways to go, will start on bottom metal inletting
Posted By: Kutter Re: New project starting - 12/28/20 03:17 AM
I like the 'clip saver' style that uses a small pivoting door that covers the open slot and hinges open and closed going over center on flat spring inside the mag box.
A small ear on each side of the door and relief cuts in the side of the box allow easy access to the cover.
I think a couple of my '88 sporters have it but I haven't looked at them in quite a while.

Glad you beat back the C'vd19. Nasty stuff for many.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/29/20 03:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Kutter
I like the 'clip saver' style that uses a small pivoting door that covers the open slot and hinges open and closed going over center on flat spring inside the mag box.
A small ear on each side of the door and relief cuts in the side of the box allow easy access to the cover.
I think a couple of my '88 sporters have it but I haven't looked at them in quite a while.

Glad you beat back the C'vd19. Nasty stuff for many.

Thank you Kutter for your kind words about that "VID". Stay safe.

".....small pivoting door that covers the open slot and hinges open and closed going over center on flat spring inside the mag box...."
I do not think I have seen anything before that matches as you describe, If possible I would very much like to examine pics of what you are talking about. Sounds quite interesting. If you can share please do so. Thanks again.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/29/20 03:41 PM
Looking for advice:
I would very much like to talk to anyone out there who has had experience inletting the bottom metal for rifles with the long single stack type magazine, like this Dutch model, early Mausers (with single stack mags), Commission 88, early Mannlichers, or maybe Nagants. Preferably having done the work from a blank, although that is less important with regards to my questions.

If you think you might have some experience generated advice please contact me and I can detail the challenges as i see them and how you may have addressed them.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Posted By: craigd Re: New project starting - 12/29/20 05:18 PM
I have not done a magazine as you are, but in similar projects, I've layed out the inletting depth on the metal. Then, all the metal prep above and below is a very subtle diamond leavind a crisp as possible line at the width.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/29/20 06:01 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd
I have not done a magazine as you are, but in similar projects, I've layed out the inletting depth on the metal. Then, all the metal prep above and below is a very subtle diamond leavind a crisp as possible line at the width.

Thanks Craigd, yes it is best to draft the sides, as this will allow for a better fit as the bottom metal sinks into the stock, as you indicate.
Posted By: craigd Re: New project starting - 12/30/20 01:40 AM
And, I do apologize for reading the problem wrong, fun project.

edit to add, thanks for the follow up picture and shop solution, I was suspecting it was an alignment issue.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/30/20 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: LRF
Looking for advice:
I would very much like to talk to anyone out there who has had experience inletting the bottom metal for rifles with the long single stack type magazine, like this Dutch model, early Mausers (with single stack mags), Commission 88, early Mannlichers, or maybe Nagants.....


I figured out a solution to the question/advice I was discussing above. The question is how to keep the bottom metal aligned and sinking into the stock straight without canting and also knowing when to stop. In the attached pic you can see the none straight condition of the bottom metal floor which make the inletting not straight forward. In addition how do you know when to stop inletting as the distance between the receive and magazine are critical to function.
My solution are two alignment pins and then you will see there is a shoulder on each pin, which controls the final depth and correct position.
Anyway its my solution and yet to be proved as the right solution. smile
Posted By: BrentD Re: New project starting - 12/30/20 09:25 PM
Looks like a good idea to me
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/02/21 05:12 PM
A short update: I milled in some of the bottom metal inletting to reduce the workload. Around each screw hole is a counter bore machined to the final floor depth so I will know when to stop. (these are the same as the steps on the brass receiver pins) The metal from where it is now to where it needs to sink to is about 3/8", so now begins the near endless cycles of inletting. Blacken the metal, try fit, remove metal, scrape away the black impressions. smile

Posted By: Kutter Re: New project starting - 01/03/21 04:18 AM
Here's some pics off the 'door' I mentioned that some Mannlicher type actions have when sporterized.
This acts as a clip saver on the sporters.

This one on an '88 sporter. They are all the same idea but sometimes pivot from a different point to take advantage of a placement that affords the best/easiest way to fabricate for that particular action.

This '88 pivots the door at the extreme back end of the mag box and uses an extra thin flat spring that is added to the magazine. That spring extends back into the trigger guard and is attached to the inside bottom of the bow and out of the way.


Close fitting door with 'ears' that fit into cutouts in the bottom edges of the magazine.


Door pulled partially open, It's actually sitting on the high point of the rear edge before going over center on the spring.


Door all the way open and spring tension 'over center ' keeps it open in this position for you.


The back edge of the door bearing on the thin flat spring that powers the door open and shut.


That's the other end of the spring. It enters into the trigger guard inside the bow and is secured there. Rounded and polished.
Posted By: Kutter Re: New project starting - 01/03/21 04:19 AM
Also, and my apologies for being late with this.
The trigger guard conversion done on the Romanian Model 93 Sporter I have for DST's.


Front 1/2 of orig trigger guard was left in tact.





Rear half of TG is a shotgun style and has a bolster/hook added to link it to the front orig half through a rectangular hole cut in the front section.


The hook simply sets into place in the front section and draws down in place as the rear guard tang is put in place in the inlet in the wood like any other shotgun guard.



When it's full down in position & the tang screw installed the joint where to two pieces come together is very tight. No movement and very hardly noticable.


Makes for a nice trigger guard appearance I think.

I've seen the same technique on a Steyr M95 (straight pull) 8x50R sporter that I owned. and recall it on some other German and Austrian Steyr type actioned sporters that I've seen over the years.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/03/21 01:38 PM
Thank you Kutter for the posting and pictures.
The pictures of the trapdoor style mag cover are quite interesting. I had seen the trigger guard implementation previously but not to the high detail you provided.
The issues for my project have been the implementation of both the mag cover and the double set triggers improvements. The cover spring has been the most significant issue.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/11/21 07:55 PM
Wel got the bottom metal inletting finished this morning. Now hoping the barrel comes as promised.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/21/21 04:21 PM
As I a wait for word when the barrel will be ready and ship I worked on inletting the trigger guard. It had its challenges but I believe I resolved them and its done for now until stock shaping time is upon me.[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/27/21 03:59 PM
I am looking for thoughts from experienced persons with regards to the right and proper barrel thread dimensions when re-barreling a mauser like action. As you know there is an internal shoulder in the actions. The same with my Steyr 1896 Dutch. Some dimensions first:

Action face to internal shoulder .710"
Action face to bolt face .715"
Barrel thread 1 1/16" diameter - 12 TPI
Barrel shoulder diameter 1.140" same as was original
Take off barrel (which is original military barrel) length of threaded stub from breech face to barrel shoulder .708"

So you can see the barrel originally tightened on the action face and there was some clearance of up to .002" between the internal shoulder and the barrel breech face. (That also means there was up to .007" clearance between the barrel breech face and the bolt face but of course that is not concerning and not part of this question).

I am in the near future going to be installing a barrel on this action and wonder what the consensus would be on the length of the barrel thread stud be.
1. Factory at .708"?
2. Make it .710" so theoretically the barrel screws up against both the action face and the internal shoulder?
3. Make it .710"+ up to .711" so it only screws against the internal shoulder?

I did do some searching the forum but met with no success. Size of forum history and not sure the right search term were my stumbling block. I imagine tthis topic or similar has been discussed in the past so if you have a link to one of those past discussions please share.

Thanks
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 01/27/21 04:05 PM
I was taught option 2 in gunsmithing school at TSJC. I would make a mandrel and true up the face before barreling myself. I know of an excellent rifle builder who uses option 3.

55 degree threads?
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/27/21 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by SKB
...55 degree threads?

Not sure, good chance they are. I am turning up a piece of steel as a test. I will then use it as a pattern for the actual barrel when it comes.

Question: if you want the barrel to screw against both face and shoulder and you "true " up the face using a mandrel, how do you true up the internal shoulder to match or be parallel with the face?
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 01/27/21 05:38 PM
I never have trued up the inner ring myself.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/27/21 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by SKB
I never have trued up the inner ring myself.

Thanks for your comments and thoughts smile
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/30/21 02:26 AM
Today I received the barrel I had ordered from Krieger. The order for the barrel was very specific as to sizes and contours. It is 7MM.
Krieger are as you probably know are not the less expensive of barrels.

The barrel I received is absolutely perfect. All dimensions are within .001" of the spec's I had given them. The outside is ground to about a 320 finish and is free of any ripples or discontinuities.

It is just beautiful and well worth the few dollars more.

AS a world traveler friend of mine once said, "It only costs a little more to go first class!" My hats off to Krieger
Posted By: BrentD Re: New project starting - 01/30/21 03:12 AM
How long did you wait for that barrel? They are wonderful barrels and I have gotten mine quite promptly and can sometimes find them in stock in a few places.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/30/21 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by BrentD
How long did you wait for that barrel? They are wonderful barrels and I have gotten mine quite promptly and can sometimes find them in stock in a few places.

I ordered the barrel at the end of Sept. As I wanted a specific contour and diameters, it was not a stock item. The contour matches early Steyr rifles. 1.140 at breech and .570" diameters at muzzle 26" long.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/31/21 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by SKB
I was taught option 2 in gunsmithing school at TSJC. I would make a mandrel and true up the face before barreling myself. I know of an excellent rifle builder who uses option 3.

55 degree threads?

The threads are 55 degree form. I measured them by taking a silly putty impress and then comparing the form against a cutter of similar form. Then to make sure I cut a test stub which fits wonderfully well.
After done I smoked the end of the receive and screwed up the stub hand tight. I got at least 270 degrees of impression on the face. I did not "blueprint" or true the front of the action. ie: option 1. And last, I decided the engineers at Steyr designed the gun to only interface with the receiver face so that is good enough for me. Its kind of like following the science. smile
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 01/31/21 11:59 PM
I have 55 degree whitworth carbide inserts for just such a task, some modern tech works well and indexable threading inserts is one of those things.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 02/01/21 03:50 AM
SKB, that certainly would be a nice way to go, wish I could justify it. For me not really practical so I used my surface grinder and made my cutter from HS steel.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 02/07/21 06:31 PM
Well the barrel is finish chambered, 7x57R. Came out good if I do say so. I hadn't chambered a barrel for at least 15 years so had to remember a few tricks.
Next is on to the takedown attachment. My plan is to have a screw with a stud on its end that will pin the barrel in place. To take it down you will back the screw out and then unscrew the barrel. Once that is done then onto fitting the forearm to both the barrel and buttstock. Then sight bases and sling loop.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 02/18/21 11:16 PM
It has been so so cold here in Minnesota the last couple weeks progress has been slow. My shop is fully heat but I keep it at 45-50 and then turn up the thermostat when I plan on working. However its still cold so progress as I said has been slow.
Here are a few pics. As I have said this will be a takedown rifle so the pics of the mill are of the buttstock setup to get the end squared up and then drilled for the interface plates which is the last pic.

Often the job of setting up and clamping is more involved then the actual milling job itself. smile
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: skeettx Re: New project starting - 02/18/21 11:50 PM
Great
Thank you for sharing?
Dutch Mannlicher M1895 made by Steyr in 1896 and 7x57R , right?
Thanks
Mike
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 02/24/21 11:01 PM
Setup for inletting barrel. I hope I am not boring anyone but I have had a couple of followers ask to see setups and how I am doing things especially since it is a takedown. In the second pic your can see more clearly the endplates. Now for the nearly endless cycles of insert barreled action into the stock, remove it and carve away the black markings on the stock.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Hoot4570 Re: New project starting - 02/27/21 02:47 PM
Not bored at all. Please keep us (or at least me) in the loop.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 03/11/21 03:22 AM
Finished inletting the barrel and I attached a couple pics. Now I have to finish the design for the forearm attachment hardware and then make the parts. Last, then inlet the parts into rifle stock
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: PhysDoc Re: New project starting - 03/11/21 12:40 PM
Thanks, I really appreciate the updates and pictures of your setups. This is the best thread that I've seen in a long time.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 03/16/21 07:51 PM
Got the forearm tip added. Continuing to work on the forearm attachment mechanism, which includes the placement of the rear sight base because the forearm attachment is part of the sight base. Here is a pic of the forearm tip
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 03/20/21 05:32 PM
As I work on the barrel attachment I decided I wanted to make a small spanner wrench that can assist with seating the barrel and also removing it. It will be stored in the buttstock under the trap butt plate. We own a small VMC that my son uses to make products for his camera accessories business and also his high power rocket accessories business. So he machined out the profile for me, now I will finish it. Second pic give a size reference
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Vall Re: New project starting - 03/20/21 08:50 PM
I have a similar spanner that came with my Ballard-Pope takedown set. Mine is just cut out from a piece of 1/8" steel.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 03/29/21 11:05 PM
Progress has been slow for various reason. However, I have now finished all the metal to wood fitting, (or at least I think so) with the trap butt plate. It is cast off 1/4" with additional 1/4" toe out
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 03/31/21 02:24 PM
Cut the mortise in the butt stock under the trap for the spanner wrench. At its deepest the mortise is 1/4 x 3/4 x 3 1/2" deep. And may I add into walnut end grain. below are a couple pics (note: the screw will be machined to be the pin portion of the wrench and only stick out about 1/8" when done)
I need to consider how and what to line with under the trap door and down into the mortise
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: PhysDoc Re: New project starting - 03/31/21 02:30 PM
That is really looking good, is that a Biessen trapdoor butt plate?
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 03/31/21 04:20 PM
Yes
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 04/06/21 12:15 AM
Need to make the rear express sight base. It also needs to add a locking feature on the bottom of the barrel which will serve as a forearm attachment. The trick of this is to bore a tapered hole that will fit perfectly with the taper of the barrel. To do this (first 2 pictures) shows how I setup the lathe taper attachment so that I can bore a perfect match. I used the barrel itself as a pattern for the required taper.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The next 2 show first rough drilling the the work piece and then boring the tapered hole using the taper attachment
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Last pic shows the material slide onto the barrel. Turned out very well. I will now start milling it as required using the mill with its vise and also the dividing head.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Jim Kobe Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 01:08 PM
If I could be so bold, why taper bore it and not just turn the barrel? I assume you will solder it in place?
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Jim Kobe
If I could be so bold, why taper bore it and not just turn the barrel? I assume you will solder it in place?

You can do it that way but since I have the equipment to taper the mount I chose to do it with that equipment. I will also use the setup to make the front sling attachment and front sight band.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 03:59 PM
Commercial versions of these sight bases are available from Recknagel, as are the express sights. They are an approximate fit, then are scraped in to fit closely. Once soldered on are usually "skim milled" to make the sight parallel to the bore. Sling attachments and sight bases are also available from them......... That said, your work is very impressive.
Mike
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Der Ami
Commercial versions of these sight bases are available from Recknagel, as are the express sights. They are an approximate fit, then are scraped in to fit closely. Once soldered on are usually "skim milled" to make the sight parallel to the bore. Sling attachments and sight bases are also available from them......... That said, your work is very impressive.
Mike
Thanks
Posted By: DmColonial Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 04:36 PM
Like asking "Why scratch build" when you can buy a gun at the store.....
Cuz I wanna?
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 04:50 PM
This project just gets better and better. I hope you'll find time to keep posting the stages as you proceed. Thanks.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 04/07/21 11:40 PM
Wow over 10,000 views. Thanks
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 04/13/21 08:50 PM
A little more updates of further work on the express sight barrel mount, which will also serve for the forearm attachment lug. The pictures are a series to show how the blank was machined using a dividing head.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 05/01/21 11:19 PM
Progress has been a bit slow the last couple weeks but I thought I would show some pics of things I have been working on:
I have been focusing on the express sights and the front sight. Lets first mention the express sights. I want to thank SKB for his comments back in his Oct 9th posting where he commented about using a 120 degree drill/mill cutter and a fixture to cut his notches in the sight blades. I took his idea and the following are pics of my notch cutting fixture and cutter:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I have also been working on the front which will have have an interchangeable blade insert and a fold down hood. Progress has been slow as I am waiting delivery of a small 75 degree dovetail cutter which is for the sight insert.
First to make sure I calculated the front sight height I modeled it in CAD and then 3D printed it. Here is a picture
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
And here is the sight having been bored to fit the barrel waiting final machining
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I also have made the hood and here are a few pics of it being formed, then a filing fixture to file in its bottom shape:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 05/01/21 11:22 PM
Nice method of making the sight hood, especially for doing just one, I like it.
Posted By: prairie ghost Re: New project starting - 05/01/21 11:23 PM
Outstanding!
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 05/03/21 03:54 PM
Made a filing fixture to put the edge radius on the sight leaves. Hope the following pictures are of interest:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: craigd Re: New project starting - 05/03/21 07:22 PM
The shop solutions are very interesting, and your pictures are great.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 05/17/21 08:26 PM
Just an update. I haven't picked up a graver for many many years and I would like to engrave the distances on the express sight blades. So I have been practicing and relearning old skills which at 71 has been challenging. And I am still waiting for a special dovetail cutter for the front sight.
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 05/17/21 11:07 PM
If you have another sight you can pull an image from it with modeling clay and scotch tape and transfer it to your new sight.
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 06/21/21 06:48 PM
Any new progress? Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 06/22/21 02:05 PM
I guess it has been sometime since I posted, sorry. Number of reasons for that. First spring has been almost unbearably hot here in Minnesota, high 90's and a couple +100 days, and as dry as a popcorn fart. We are in trouble for the lands of 10000 lakes. Second I has had some health concerns with a bunch of testing which so far has all been negative but it takes a toll on your mental condition. Right now its a strained knee, not related to the testing, but that really hurts. Fell while Turkey hunting on Memorial days. Last, lots going on with the grandkids and their parents which will include a week of dog setting starting later this week.
Anyway I haven't been totally idle:
1. I decided to give the engraving of the sight blades over to my friend Roger Sampson and he did a bang up job. I still have to mount them and finish but the engraving is done. smile
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
2. I worked on the barrel fitting. Got the breech end machined for the ejector/extractor, then screwed in and indexed. Finally I worked on the feed of dummy rounds since I changed from the Dutch round to the 7x57. I had to do some opening of the rails since the new round in slightly bigger just in front of the rim and would get jammed depending on which of the 5 rounds in the clip was up for feeding. A perplexing issue but got it solved.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
last I started work of shaping the front sight. I first 3D printed a model of what I want and then just file till they match. Not done yet but getting there. Oh BTW I did finally get my dovetail cutters so I can now finish the sight machining.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 08/06/21 04:15 PM
A little more progress. The front sight base is mostly done now and I attached a few pics. I still have to make the sight blade, stipple the ramp, final polish, and then of course solder to the barrel.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 08/09/21 12:48 PM
Great ,,really enjoy seeing your work
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 08/11/21 01:12 AM
Did some more work on the front sight
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: prairie ghost Re: New project starting - 08/11/21 03:24 AM
Regarding the tapped hole in the front sight blade. Where do you get your taps for a hole that small.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 08/11/21 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by prairie ghost
Regarding the tapped hole in the front sight blade. Where do you get your taps for a hole that small.
That small hole is not tapped but rather a straight hole that the user can push a pin thru and release the spring loaded plunget below which retains the blade in the dovetail slot.
Posted By: prairie ghost Re: New project starting - 08/11/21 12:39 PM
OK thanks. Very nice work.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 09/05/21 07:36 PM
I finished the rear sight base and express sights today. Now to solder the rear and front sights and the sling swivel to the barrel.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: New project starting - 09/05/21 10:53 PM
Some of us assemble rifles from components we mostly purchase. This is genuine gunmaking, and it's a treat to see it unfold. Good work, and good on you.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/03/21 03:36 PM
Sorry I haven't updated for awhile as I have been dealing with health issues concerning severe nerve pain in my back and right leg. Trying to get better but just can't stand for more then a few minutes and can't sit down at all. Just flat on my back.
However, I am ready to solder on all the barrel parts as soon as able.
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 10/03/21 04:52 PM
Hope you get back on your feet I enjoy your post
Posted By: Der Ami Re: New project starting - 10/04/21 01:34 PM
I'm sorry for your trouble, I understand very well what you are going through. Try everything you can before they tell you, you are too old. There is not much you can do on a lathe or mill, sitting on a stull, and nothing laying down. You figured all your projects out, you can figure this out too. Hang in there.
Mike
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/04/21 03:32 PM
"Hope you get back on your feet I enjoy your post"

"I'm sorry for your trouble, I understand very well what you are going through. Try everything you can before they tell you, you are too old. There is not much you can do on a lathe or mill, sitting on a stull, and nothing laying down. You figured all your projects out, you can figure this out too. Hang in there.
Mike"

Thank you mc and Mike for the kind words. Age is a double edged sword, it comes with added issues, however it also comes with added days and hope for the issues being dealt with. smile
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 10/05/21 05:29 PM
I really want to the finished gun so much great work get well soon
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 10/06/21 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by mc
I really want to the finished gun so much great work get well soon
we are on the same page. I was in the VA pain clinic yesterday and the diagnosis was encouraging. Hoping they are right smile
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 10/06/21 01:05 AM
I had rfa to my back yesterday .i hope they are right too yours is a great project
Posted By: SKB Re: New project starting - 10/06/21 08:56 AM
Hope to see you on the mend soon, the rifle is coming along great.
Posted By: Nero Re: New project starting - 10/06/21 06:41 PM
I also wish you all the best for the future.
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 11/01/21 02:45 AM
Are you feeling better I'm hoping to get some update photos on your great project.mark
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 11/01/21 09:41 AM
I am improving. Details would be boring. smile I was in the shop for a little while over the weekend but didn't yet get back on to the project. Its still were I left it so that means no Elves came to help. You just can't count on them.
Thanks for caring.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/05/21 02:52 PM
Made progress this weekend however nothing I can take pictures of. On the barrel I have to solder on the rear sight mount, the sling swivel, and the front sight. All 3 wrap around the barrel. Not being an expert at soldering in the least I was able to tin the inside of all 3 attachment and then tin the 3 locations on the barrel. I learned a lot and you get better as I progressed. I am happy with the results if I do say so myself. Now I have to locate all 3 attachment in their proper location and alignment and then sweat them together.

However, that will have to wait a couple of days as I am not yet 100% on the knee and back issues and doing this work listed here has set me back a little. Damn it get old and wore out sucks but I guess I ain't dirt sleeping so cheer up. smile

As soon as I have pictures of something worth showing I will. Thanks for following.
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 12/05/21 04:18 PM
Happy to see you are back
Posted By: Vall Re: New project starting - 12/05/21 09:28 PM
Sorry I missed your post about the health issues! A belated hope you get better soon!
Looking forward to updates as you feel better!
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/07/21 01:04 AM
I was able to get the barrel sights and swivels finish soldered to the barrel. I will now polish them out and take pictures and then post. I guess my knee and back are improving.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/08/21 06:42 PM
Got all the solder and heat discolorations polished out. Finishing polish will be done just before rust blueing

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 12/08/21 07:57 PM
Great
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/19/21 04:35 PM
Time for an update. I took the barrel up to the engraver and he is engraving the caliber on it. I have also started the stock work. Lots of wood to remove and a long ways to go. But the project is moving forward.
Here are a couple pics. I suppose the most interesting is you can see the stock is cast off and the toe cast out. The pistol grip will be Price of Wales knob
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 12/21/21 04:54 PM
Did you make the but plate?I am looking forward finished gun
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/21/21 09:37 PM
Buttplate is an Al Biesen. These are no longer available.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: New project starting - 12/22/21 12:59 AM
I have a plate like that on my 250 Savage Steyr Mannlicher deer rifle that was stocked for me back in the mid 1970s. I don't remember where I picked it up.
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 12/22/21 03:09 PM
Nice looking butt plate
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/22/21 10:35 PM
Got the barrel engraving back and I am happy. Always pays to take engraving to a master. smile
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 12/22/21 11:57 PM
Here are a couple more pics of stock work. Removing wood is a pain and I am not good with a draw knife or a hatchet as in Alvin's case. LOL In the first pic I milled the grip area thickness to size on both sides while maintaining the center line stock reference. In the next I establish a taper from the butt plate to the grip and milled the wood flat. At this stage the name of the game is remove the "overburden" as quickly as you can while feeling comfortable. Now comes lots of work with a cabinet rasp.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: mc Re: New project starting - 01/15/22 08:26 PM
I hope your busy finishing this project.
Posted By: LRF Re: New project starting - 01/15/22 10:04 PM
Yes I am working on it.
Shaping the stock. Its been very cold here and I don't like spending a lot of money on the "inflated cost" (thanks Biden) of natural gas to heat the shop. LOL
Also I bought myself an English made Jones type action double rifle in 450 3 1/4" BPE. I have been spending time getting ready to shoot it as soon as it warms up. I made a paper patch mold for it. Should be fun.

I'll post pictures once I am a little further along with the stock shaping work.
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